Traveller-digest      Sunday, January 3 1999      Volume 1998 : Number 1355



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: American soldiers firing on citizens...
Re: Texas Revolts?
Re: HIWG Traveller Writers' Guild Digest V1 #317
Re: Texas Revolts?
Re: Ship design standards
Re: American soldiers firing on citizens...
Re: Why Railguns Aren't Starship weapons (was Re: Ravioli Gun)
re: real-world railguns
Re: Alternative BITS address - please don't book mark
Jamming
Re: real-world railguns
Re: Pluto's secret
Re: Terran First Contact Timeline (RW sucessionist Issues)
Re: Texas Revolts?
Re: American soldiers firing on citizens...
hiwg cd
Re: HIWG CD
Re: Empress Wave (ws Re: Pluto's Secret)
Re: Extended Social Generation
Re: Posting Task library?
Re: Tuscaloosa class
Marc Miller's Traveller 4
Re: Extended Social Generation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 08:05:29
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: American soldiers firing on citizens...

At 08:22 AM 1/3/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Then there is the threat of punishment for not obeying a lawful order, and
>who defines "lawful" but the people giving the orders?

Well, there is the Constitution, the US Code, the UCMJ...

In short, if the American citizens in question are attempting to overthrow
the government, you bet they will be fired on.
- --

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|   B E A T  G R E E N  B A Y ! ! !  |
|   B E A T  G R E E N  B A Y ! ! !  |
|   B E A T  G R E E N  B A Y ! ! !  |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 08:08:17
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?

At 11:56 PM 1/2/99 -0500, you wrote:

>It takes propaganda, money, and power to get an Army together where there
>was none.

Texas has all three.

Doug.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:45:29 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: HIWG Traveller Writers' Guild Digest V1 #317

In a message dated 1/2/99 3:38:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, dom@cybergoths.u-
net.com writes:

<< 
 I want a simplified (HG level) design system (ie more simple than QSDS) as
 the basis for T5. I would like it to have more flexibilty in the sense that
 HePLAR/other drives are included and G rating limits are dropped, and the
 no of hard points limit becomes a number of surface area points total. I
 use HG still with the T5 draft rules, and I use Rob Prior's QSDS software
 to design ships for T4 scenarios.
  >>
	That sounds really good to me too.   But I think that there should also be a
simplified system for creating Ground and Grav vehicles.   I've designed them
under Striker, MT and Central Supply Catalogue rules,  and I can't tell you
how many times I've thought  "All this work for a freaking TRUCK!"  --Since my
games involve more ground action than Starship combat, I'd really like a Quick
vehicle system.  (I bought FFS-2, but haven't had the stomach to try to use
it--that's not the direction to go!).


Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:55:25 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?

But compared to the rest of the U.S.?  And what makes you think that
Federally-owned military bases are going to go along with the thing?

Let a bunch of cowboys in 4X4's and on horseback attack a whole post and see
what happens...

Again, it couldn't happen unless the Feds wanted it to.

- --Clif

>>It takes propaganda, money, and power to get an Army together where there
>>was none.
>
>Texas has all three.
>
>Doug.
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 11:59:41 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Ship design standards

Travis Foster <travisf23@earthlink.net> writes:
>I've recently decided to run a Gurps:Traveller game and I need to build a
>large exploration starship.
>
>What are the size [in tons?] of the various types of ships? I'm especially
>looking for ranges for the larger ships (what is considered a large
>ship?).

Well, Leviathan (CT Adventure 4) was 1800 dtons, so if you stick with that
you should use a 2000 dton hull.

Hm.  I'll run Leviathan through GT Shipyard and post the design for you.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:57:03 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: American soldiers firing on citizens...

Yeah, they call such activity "domestic terrorism" these days...

And you know what happens to terrorists... double-tap to the no-reflex
zone...
- --Clif
>
>>Then there is the threat of punishment for not obeying a lawful order, and
>>who defines "lawful" but the people giving the orders?
>
>Well, there is the Constitution, the US Code, the UCMJ...
>
>In short, if the American citizens in question are attempting to overthrow
>the government, you bet they will be fired on.
>--
>
>+------------------------------------+
>| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
>|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
>+------------------------------------+
>|   B E A T  G R E E N  B A Y ! ! !  |
>|   B E A T  G R E E N  B A Y ! ! !  |
>|   B E A T  G R E E N  B A Y ! ! !  |
>+------------------------------------+
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 09:01:43 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Why Railguns Aren't Starship weapons (was Re: Ravioli Gun)

>>BTW your ship is basically a blind man with respect to this
>>projectile,  an unpowered kinetic projectile with a cross section of
>>less than 2cm moving at 4Km/s  (current velocities, probably much
>>faster in Traveller terms ) is almost impossible to detect in time to
>>react to it.


Dave wrote
>        I'll defer to Bruce Macintosh or somebody else with detailed sensor
>knowledge for a clear analysis of detecting the railgun projectile.

>        - 112mm high by 74mm dia = 0.112m x 0.074m. Total area  0.035m^2.
>Active sig -1
>        - Power output: 0MW. Passive sig -2.5

>        Assuming military vessel with 15 passive, 12.5 active sensitivity.
>Automatic detection via passive out to far orbit (500,000km).
>Automatic detection via active out to planetary range (50,000km).

Actually, the passive/IR signature table isn't really designed to work
for things as small as cans of ravioli (I can't believe I just
wrote that.) The real signature should be based on its absorbed heat,
which is (0.035 m) * (1 kw/m2) = 35 W, about -3.5, with an additional
+0.5 because the can doesn't have intelligent radiator design, for -3.

It would have a passive/visible signature of -2.5. Mil sensor arrays
(maybe passive/14 and active 12 is what I gave my version of the
Midu) would see it automatically at about 1.5 million km in the
visible and 500,000 km by radar. Paint it military black and give it
a level of stealth and those ranges go down to 500,000 and 150,000 km.
Make it a small can of tomato paste (2cm base) and the signatures
go down by about 0.5, for 150,000 km visible and 50,000 km radar.

Lest anyone think these are unreasonable, the USAF Space Command 
currently tracks *every* object 10 cm in diameter or bigger in 
earth orbit, and there have been experiments that track objects down
to 1 cm, and several serious proposals for routine tracking of objects
down to this size with radar or visible light. And that's TL7-8,
with ground-based sensors.

ALso, as Dave notes, even if you don't see the projectile coming, since
it is going to take literally hours to reach you, (a) even small
evasive changes of course will guarantee a miss even against big clouds
of cans, and (b) the battle will be over before the cans get close to
their target...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 09:18:55 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: real-world railguns

>The rail guns we have could easily make a mess of the USS Iowa
(slight exageration, as all that really exists are lab prototypes)

>let alone the weak little spaceships we're running around in.
More true. However, they also weight many tonnes and require megawatts
of power; we couldn't launch a railgun equipped weapons platform into
orbit, and even if we did, we couldn't power it.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 13:33:44 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Alternative BITS address - please don't book mark

At 08:25 AM 03/01/99 -0700, you wrote:
>SD Mooney wrote:
>
>> This appears to have started on 01/01/1999 and appears to be a problem with
>> the virtual ISP address (a server/provider I can't access - only Andy can).
>
>What, a Y2K-1 problem??? ;-)
>
>

        Ummm....  There are sevral Y2k-5 problems....   that's why everyone
woke up...
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 12:39:06 EST
From: SunTsi@aol.com
Subject: Jamming

Hi Michel
I humbly apologize for my ignorance...
I wasnt aware of most of the possibilities of jamming you listed. But I
have problems with understanding how this works, and I think the answers you
non
doubtedly have, will be of interest to everyone.
All those forms of jamming sensor imply that the jammer is sending signals.
Couldnt
you find the source of the signals ? I understand and see the possibilities of
mirroring
a given blip but that would only (?) lessen the chance of a hit by the point
defence.
Thanks in advance for comprehensive answers !

Andreas Reimer
"Well do or die we dont know why cuz where Colonial Marines"
  ALIENS Marines Sourcebook

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 12:47:59 -0500
From: "Eric Freitas" <ericfreitas@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: real-world railguns

From: Bruce Alan Macintosh <bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu>
>>let alone the weak little spaceships we're running around in.
>More true. However, they also weight many tonnes and require megawatts
>of power; we couldn't launch a railgun equipped weapons platform into
>orbit, and even if we did, we couldn't power it.
>
>Bruce


Couldn't we mount a thousand square meters of 24% efficient solar panels
(~324W/m^2 times 1000 gets 324kW).  So what if it takes time to charge the
firing capacitors.  Of course with the recoil of the weapon, you might want to
either strengthen the solar array supports, or even keep the array on a
separate platform and beam power to the weapon.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 13:10:13 -0500
From: howard.anderson@psu.edu (Cheng Tseng)
Subject: Re: Pluto's secret

Sir,

        I suggest that you re-read those two sources.  The first official
notice to the Soviets about the progress of the Manhattan Project came when
Harry Truman told Stalin that we exploded Trinity.
        BTW-Klaus Fuch was not the only source of info the NKVD had at Los
Alamos.  There was an American scientist who also passed information along,
and who the project security took the longest time to figure it out.  Last
time I checked, he was still alive and living in the UK.

CT


>Actually, Klaus Fuchs, the man who gave all the information to the Soviets,
>and who was, one of the primary designers of the Fat Man implosion bomb (he
>was the one who came up with the proper design for the explosive 'lenses'
>which made the implosion bomb possible) was not American, but English. 
>
>Compared to him, the Rosenbergs and Gold were small fry.
>
>Also, please remember, officially the Russians were on _our_ side during the
>war, and _officially_, they were supposed to in on the progress of the
>Manhattan Project.
>
>See:
>
>AUTHOR       Rhodes, Richard.
> TITLE        The making of the atomic bomb / Richard Rhodes.
> PUBLISHER    New York : Simon & Schuster, c1986.
> DESCRIPTION  886 p. : ill. ; 24 cm.
> NOTES        Includes index.
>              Bibliography: p. 848-886.
> SUBJECTS     Atomic bomb -- History.
> ISBN         0671441337 :
>
>and 
>
>AUTHOR       Rhodes, Richard.
> TITLE        Dark sun : the making of the hydrogen bomb.
> PUBLISHER    New York : Simon & Schuster, 1995.
> DESCRIPTION  731 p. : ill. ; 24 cm.
> SUBJECTS     Hydrogen bomb -- History.
> ISBN         068480400X.
>
>



"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes-they
need to get a clue."
Cheng Tseng-Student, Econ Major, Politician, Senator, Brother-in-law....
http://www.personal.psu.edu/cxt217

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 13:52:42 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Terran First Contact Timeline (RW sucessionist Issues)

In a message dated 1/2/99 10:31:32 AM Pacific Standard Time,
RSpake2064@aol.com writes:

<< richard (who is waiting for the flames to come as some find these simple
words
 offensive) >>

Flame on! I don't find the content offensive; just the fact that it's on the
TML, without a tie-in to Traveller...Flame off!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 11:22:51 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?

>Subject: Texas Revolts?

  Wow, is that a straight line or what? :>

...
>And I restate my opinion that such a thing would not happen unless the govt.
>had a vested interest in it.
>
>It takes propaganda, money, and power to get an Army together where there
>was none.

  So assuming that the US is relatively rare in being that effective a
central gov't (Q: was the FRG behind the various terrorist groups there?),
whereas places like Colombia, Vietnam Cuba, and Peru _can_ develop local
insurgencies without foreign assistance (beyond perhaps the ideological
motivations), is the 3I likely to be effective enough to be pulling the
strings at the Empire-wide level?

  Personally, I would very much doubt it, but the doctrine that an effective
central government can prevent any opposition seems interesting.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 14:38:07 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: American soldiers firing on citizens...

In a message dated 1/3/99 5:40:13 AM Pacific Standard Time, brclif@digital.net
writes:

<< 
 Then there is the threat of punishment for not obeying a lawful order, and
 who defines "lawful" but the people giving the orders? >>

I guess we forgot Nuremburg....:-(

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 14:57:27 EST
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: hiwg cd

	For a partial list of goodies included see:

members.aol.com/kagekiha/traveller

Cost is $20 (includes S&H even to foreign destinations)

Bryan Borich
3890 50th street
San Diego, CA 92105-3005

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:28:12 -0500
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD

Why the stort supply?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 08:35:35 +1100
From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave (ws Re: Pluto's Secret)

Dear Folks -

Alan wrote:
>I guess while we're explaining, I'll do this one too:
>"Was it a time-travelling Avery who tipped off Strephon about Dulinor's plot?"

Damn, Alan, that's MY plot device. I just hope none of my players are reading this...
(they aren't, BTW ;-).
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 08:43:33
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Extended Social Generation

>From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
>Subject: Re: Extended Social Generation for Traveller
>
>Very interesting.  I'll be digesting it for a while.
>
>Some early thoughts:
>
>Major religions
>Political organisations (eg Solomani Party, Ine Givar)
>

These can be treated as 'families'.

For example, in the 1950s, the two major factions within the NSW Police
force were the Catholics and the Freemasons.

In the modern Australian Labor Party in New South Wales, the Left faction
essentially consists of two subfactions ... the Metalworkers Union group
and the Miscellaneous Workers Union group - the Misco's are known as the
'Fergusonites', because of the influence of the Ferguson clan within it
(heck, the Metalo sub-faction coalesced due to a feeling that the Fergusons
were dominating NSW Left politics). The Breretons formed a similar clan on
the NSW Right.

I dont think I need to raise the examples of the Kennedy clan as a faction
within the US Democratic party, at least when Kennedy Sr was running the show.

In ESG terms, sub-factions could be represented by two allied ('good'
relationship) families, or (even better) two families who dont neccessarily
get along, but share an  enemy (it is a truism of politics that there is no
blue like a blue within a faction).

Hmm, once it's all done, you could rank the families by using some sort of
log function (I want 10 O6s to be equal in influence to one O7).


>Modifiers for organisations that are expanding or withdrawing from a
>particular area.  EG: Oberlindes Lines is expanding into Aramis subsector. 
>Roll with additional -2 DM for presence on a particular world.
>

Thats doable. Needless to say, GMs should fix dice rolls as appropriate, to
make sure Oberlindes is on planets where Canon says it should be.

>Expansion downwards to planetary government level.  Eg:  What
>parties/factions/cliques are in world government?  Who are their leaders? 
>Admittedly, this stuff doesn't scale as well as the higher level stuff, as
>it's more tied to the peculiarities of the world.  At this level you really
>need the expanded world gen stuff from World Builders Handbook and similar.
> Then you could go down to mayors, and major landowners....  This is
>perhaps going a little overboard at this point.

Maybe. But the pattern is there ...

I'd say the lower you go, the more below the 'horizon' of the Families,
Clans and Cliques you get.

Although the equivalent of Jimmy Carter's brother Bubba, who ran a gas
station in Georgia, is amusing ... some little D class port, with a bloke
running it who bears an *awful* lot fo resemblence to the Imperial High
Chamberlain ...

>
>Popular support.  This refers to political groups, religions and
>corporations that are engaged in competition.  Essentially there should be
>a base level of support, plus modifiers for actual levels, rolled as
>required.  
>

The reason I wrote this is so a GM can look up *fast* who is important on a
world, and wing it from there.

Once you have a look at the 'Family Summary Sheet', obvious adventure hooks
will suggest themselves.

It will also let the *players* know how they rank vis a vis some Planetary
Navy patron ... if the PC group is led by an ex-Navy O6, then it is quite
possible he may have a 'courtesy rank' equalling the local Squadron
Commandant.

Noble PCs should also get a look at the Family chart when they want, and
should get a list of who their major friends and enemies are ... everyone
else has to work at finding out who is related to, friends with or feuding
with whom ...

>Examples:
>What proportion of the poolball fruit market does Makhidkarun have?  Err,
>(roll, roll) 43%.  It's biggest competitor is Tukera Fruit, with 22%.  
>Who won the last election on this world?  Umm, the Democratic Solomani
>Party got 54%, but were overthrown in a coup.  
>
>This procedure could also be used when faction leaders have large support
>(but unspecified) support bases.  We can work out how the Dukes will vote,
>but what about the Barons? 
>
>Very interesting work!  Keep it up!
>

Thanks :)

>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>Subject: Re: Extended Social Generation for Traveller
>
>        I can do this for you, if you like....  It'll be a while before I
>can get to it...  Still working on four other programs simulatenously, so I
>don't want to overload myself.  I figure I could have an alpha ready in
>mid-Feb if that is OK....
>        I could use it for my TNEC game, so its worth me doing it.
>

Which language ? I'd strongly prefer something platform-independant.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 16:55:00 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Posting Task library?

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

>Oh Yes! Please find and post this nugget.... I have another idea
>for the list. If anyone has compiled a list of ALL CT through T4
>list of skills, how about posting that too?

Working on it. I had a classified list of TNE and T4 skills for my own use.
When I read your post, I looked over my material and can add CT (from the
Starter Edition) and MT (From the Player's Manual). The skills are
organized differently in the different books and sometimes have different
names, but I think I can come up with a reasonable clustering for them.
Gimme a couple of days, and I should have something for you.

 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 08:54:58
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Tuscaloosa class

>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: Re: Tuscaloosa class comments
>
>Ian or Katts wrote:
>>
>> You need longer-ranged dampers ... at TL13, det lasers are blossoming at 30
>> kkm.
>> 
>I probably can work those in without too much problem.  What range do
>you recommend?
>

At least 50 kkm. 100 kkm would be easy to justify.

>> >664 Meson Screen (275.56MW /Ar: 10 [29])
>> 
>> This wont even slow down a cruiser-sized meson gun.
>> 
>I based that figure on Bruce Alan Macintosh's combat system, in which
>this size screen _will_ stop a meson gun equivalent in volume and power
>demand to the PAW with which TUSCALOOSA is armed.
>

And the screen is the absolute bare minimum size that will do this, right ?

Meson Screens are surface-intensive ... think about upping the factor.

>>
>> >Weapons (300,000km range bands)
>> >1x 22.5k-Mj Spinal PA (+6) 2/15-15-15-15 [2,200/1065-1065-1065-1065]
>> >400rof Ar: 30 [115]
>> 
>> Thats DV 1065, out to a maximum range of 'yes', right ? Note that it cannot
>> penetrate it's own armour ... it's a 150mx18.75m, isnt it ... think about a
>> circular PAW ... you have range coming out of the wazoo, but you need more
>> crunch power IMO
>> 
>Unfortunately, I wasn't able to mount a more powerful weapon while
>maintaining J4/6G performance, and having the ship resonably proof
>against its own weapon class (that was deliberate).  I'll consider
>up-gunning the follow-on BALTIMORE class.
>

*grin* this is what happens when you follow a spreadsheet. See what size
Circular PAW you need to achieve a sufficient range (a million km sounds
about right), then see how much output you can get out of it ...

>> >8x 568-Mj Laser Bay (+6) 1/6-6-6-6 [2,200/60-60-60-60] 200rof
>> >32x 250-Mj Laser Turret (+6) 1/4-4-4-4 [2,100/40-40-40-40] 100rof
>> 
>> Thats 200 and 100 shots per 30 minutes ? Please, go for a higher RoF ...
>> 
>Each laser mount (turret and bay) also has battery power sufficient for
>PD ROF of 800.  
>

Good design ! Slow RoF under normal circumstances, but the ability to put
out massive mountains of megajoules when need demands ...

>The missile bays are primarily designed as secondary batteries to whomp
>the tar out of DDs escorting the enemy cruisers.  However, I can see
>mounting 8 missile bays with area nukes (for defensive purposes),
>leaving 16 bays for DD killing.
>

OK, but I'd be using a couple of secondary PAW bays for that role. Or you
could reconfigure the PAW into a parallel mount (a 150m PAW is actually
only about 40% of the length of your *spit* wedge hull), and put in a
parallel meson gun ...

>So.  Do I at least pass the test to move from Apprentice to Journeyman
>Gearhead? ;-)

Journeyman is about right ;) Once you can build from the ground up, without
use of a spreadsheet, then you make Master :)

Seriously, it's a solid design. 

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 18:26:21 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Marc Miller's Traveller 4

Today I bought the one(?) Marc Miller's Traveller (4?) rule book, copyright
1996.

Is this all I need to play a Basic Traveller campaign...

Are there any mistakes in it I should correct?

Anything in it you think is flaky?

The artwork, except that done by Elmore, sure does suck...  In an effort to
be futuristic and stylish, the artist(s?) really drew some functionally
stupid ships and equipment, those parts of it that contrast enough that you
can see them, that is.

Please, tell me what you think of this book.

I picked it up for just under $30, the price listed on the back.  Should I
wrap this thing up and plan to sell it later, or should I let it experience
gamer's wear and tear, since I don't have any other rule books for
Traveller?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 23:49:19 -0000
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: Extended Social Generation

Ian or Katts:-

>OK. This is something that has been floating around in my brain for a
>while. Essentially, it is an attempt to do a scalable social map for a
>chunk of the Third Imperium. The basic version is for a world, but it can
>be upscaled for Subsector, Sector and Imperial level.

>If we can computerise it, it could be really, really cool.

This is a concept I have been considering for my WBD software. I will
contact you privately to discuss the matter further.

There are a few flaws in your rules, in my opinion, In particular little
consideration for TL. ie. the rules work for worlds that have attained space
travel or have an Imperial presence. What about low TL worlds. They are
unlikely to have Naval capabilities?

Any comments on Ian's proposed rules would help too.

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1355
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, January 4 1999      Volume 1998 : Number 1356



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4
TL-10  2000 ton Pirate Ship (QSDS)
Missiles
Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4
Re: Texas Revolts?
Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4
Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4
Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4
Re: SJG TNS: The Plot thickens...
Re: Texas Revolts?
Re: Texas Revolts?
Re: Jamming
Trucks, Trucks, Trucks!!
Re: EW in Traveller
Re: HIWG CD
Re: Happy Space:1999
UCP (Was Re: Texas Revolts?)
Re: American soldiers firing on citizens...
Re: Empress Wave (ws Re: Pluto's Secret)
Re: Texas Revolts?
Re: G:T merchant

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 18:53:26 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4

Clif wrote:

> I picked it up for just under $30, the price listed on the back.  Should I
> wrap this thing up and plan to sell it later, or should I let it experience
> gamer's wear and tear, since I don't have any other rule books for
> Traveller?
> 
> --Clif

Clif,

Bare with me for a second, because this is really NOT meant as
flamebait, I'm trying to get a feel for what's going on in Traveller
these days. Did I read this correctly? This is your first set of
Traveller rules? Can I interpert this to mean that you came to this list
via GURPS Traveller, that your a GURPS player that is looking into the
Traveller rules? 

The reason I ask this is that we have had some debate over on another
list about the furture of Traveller and Marc's T5 rules now that GURPS
is out. If the above is tru it gives me hope, but also a bit of concern.

The concern is that other GURPS players will follow your lead, buying
the T4 product. Unfortunatley this is not (IMHO) the best example of the
rules. The rules themselves are ok (you'll get some reaction that there
are broken parts, one of the reasons Marc started to revise them to
begin with). Unfortunately Imperium Games dis a really P**s poor job
with the lay out and design that it's hard to get beyond that for some
of us "oldtimers"! These books MAY become collectors items someday,
stranger things have happened, bu the odds are that they'll never reach
the sought after status of CT or MT. My recommendation is ro read
through the rules, write to Marc at FarFuture@AOL.com and request the
draft versions of the T5 rules he's let out for play test and put the 2
together to play with until T5 hits the stands. Which gets back to my
concern, I really hope T5 hits the stands BEFORE too many GURPS players
grab T4 and are so turned off that they never do check out the new
version.

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com
"In this same line why do the Brits (no insult intended) have BITS?
Where
is the NATS (North American Traveller's Society)? After all it IS "Yanks
in Space" ;^> why aren't we yanks doing more to promote it?"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:57:32 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: TL-10  2000 ton Pirate Ship (QSDS)

Here is a desing for a pirate ship from the Long Night,
			Dave Nelson   (AveNelso@aol.com)


Ship Class:   Jackal Class Pirate Ship     QSDS		TL-10
Tons: 2000 ton Slab-A					Cost: Mcr 532.89
Crew: 46				Passengers: 0	Low berth: 20
					Lrg State: 3, Small State: 43
Cargo: 28 tons+360 		TL-10 Standard Military Controls/Bridge
FC Rating: 3				TL-10 Advanced Commo
Size:	9				Jump 1, 200 fuel/parsec ,  825.1 tons fuel tank
PA Gun Bay 5-4-3-0
Missile Barbette x4 (20)		4-G HePlaR,  212.2 tons fuel/20 hours
Sandcastersx5 (20 volleys each)	Power Plant  2    2000MW
Minimal Hanger (200 ton)		MFD TL 10 x3: 9 missiles at a time
Minimal Hanger (20 ton)		TL-10 Small Military Sensors A4 P4 J0
Fuel Purifier (20t/hour)		Armor 30  Structure 25

Vehicles:   Launch

Crew: Eng x3, Elecx3, Maneuver x2, Gunn x11, Small Craft x4, Command x6,
Steward x2, Medic x1.  Troops: 15

NOTES: 
1) The ship has an under-strength power plant (123mw short of full
requirement)  as a result, it can only accelerate at 2-G on any turn when it
fires its Particle Accelerator Bay.  If another ship acts as spotter, it could
fire PA, maneuver at 4-G but must shut off Missile Fire Directors and Sensors.
2) The 200 ton Minimal Hanger is meant for capture of disabled small
starships.  The space could instead be used as extra cargo hold (=360 tons).
3) The fuel tank allows 2 Jump-1's and 40 hours of thrust from the Heplar
drives, or 3 Jump-1s and 20 hours of acceleration.    

Background: This vessel was designed in a successor state to the Rule of Man
in the Fornast sector during Twilight, during a particularly vicious civil
war.   It was meant to be a commerce raider that could be easily built in the
sector's TL-10 shipyards from off-the shelf components by the navy and
privateers. The ships were massed produced and plans were widely circulated.
Because of its relative inexpense and its versatility, the  design proved to
be a mainstay to pirate fleets on emerging TL-10 planets all through the Long
Night.   As a result, this is a commonly found opponent of the Naval Forces of
the Third Imperium.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 16:28:42 -0800
From: "Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@iname.com>
Subject: Missiles

Greeting Fellow Travellers,

I have sen considerable references to chemical-pumped lasers as an
alternative to nuc-det lasers. Has somebody posted a design for one of
these? Ian? Bruce? Anybody?


Brian A. Howard

IMTU @tc tm @t4 GT++ ru- ge+ 3i+ jt-- au+ st++ ls+ kk+ hi+ as++ va+ zh+ so-
vi da+ ?sy--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 21:07:07 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4

No, I had played MegaTraveller and 2300AD back in the late '80's.  In the
absence of any of these rule books on the shelves, I picked up what was
there, since that would be better than nothing...

I've never played GURPS, but the fact that GURPS has a Traveller product
makes me believe that if you see a Traveller rule book, you had better grab
it.

So T4 is not as good as CT?  How could you make a product that is worse than
your own brainchild?  What I DO know is that *I* could have drawn better
equipment and ships than what is in here...

Is there an Errata for T4?  I'm still open to hearing what
changes/corrections you up-to-the-minute Spacers think should be made for
this book/rule system.

Don't worry.  I'm not a GURPS player and I certainly am not a trend-setter
who could usher in a gaming movement.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 21:20:03 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?

>whereas places like Colombia, Vietnam Cuba, and Peru _can_ develop local
>insurgencies without foreign

Are you saying that these came into being WITHOUT the help of a foreign
power?  I thought that was what the C.I.A. was all about?  Read the C.I.A.
manual having to do with Psychological Warfare, Disinformation, and the
formation of cells for Central and South American operations...  (Search for
those terms... last I checked you could still find the manual on the Net).

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 21:29:43 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4

Clif,

I didn't mean to say that the RULES were not up to CT standards. Most
(again IMHO) are, some are not, the QSDS system for example. But musch
of this was due to the publishing and editing practices, which,
unfortunately, were not tightly under Marc's control. The biggest
problems lie in the fact that T4 overall was somewhat chaotic. Elements
of the system didn't mesh very well. From what I saw discussed across
the net, a bit of the problem was IG's rush to put books on the shelve.
Another problem I think, was the lack of inhouse writing and knowledge
of the game industry on IG's part, thier interest pas product on the
shelf and sales, not quality or consistancy. THis is, probably why
Marc's taking so long to release T5. Of course theis is all speculation
on my part.


I personaly like much of the rules, in spirit if not always the exact
mechanics. They are much closer to the CT/MT rules that TNE. Of course
TNE used the same engine as 2300 so you might want to look fro a copy of
those rules

Mike

Clif wrote:
>
> 
> So T4 is not as good as CT?  How could you make a product that is worse than
> your own brainchild?  What I DO know is that *I* could have drawn better
> equipment and ships than what is in here...
> 
> Is there an Errata for T4?  I'm still open to hearing what
> changes/corrections you up-to-the-minute Spacers think should be made for
> this book/rule system.
> 
>

<snipped> 
- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com
"In this same line why do the Brits (no insult intended) have BITS?
Where
is the NATS (North American Traveller's Society)? After all it IS "Yanks
in Space" ;^> why aren't we yanks doing more to promote it?"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 22:05:31 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4

Michael Peters said:

>I personaly like much of the rules, in spirit if not always the exact
>mechanics. They are much closer to the CT/MT rules that TNE. Of course
>TNE used the same engine as 2300 so you might want to look fro a copy of
>those rules


I thought it was Twilight: 2000's rules set. My copy of 2300 looks nothing
like TNE.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 22:14:27 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4

Clif said:

>The artwork, except that done by Elmore, sure does suck...  In an effort to
>be futuristic and stylish, the artist(s?) really drew some functionally
>stupid ships and equipment, those parts of it that contrast enough that you
>can see them, that is.


Foss's stuff didn't do much for me either. I don't care for the 50s sci-fi
feel of the artwork for the book.

That's a common complaint.

>Please, tell me what you think of this book.
>


I have some problems with the skill advancement system (PCs seemed to
advance to high power very quickly).

Basically though, the rules are more or less workable. There is errata
floating around. Last time I checked (pretty recently) the Imperium Games
website was still up (that's at http://www.imperiumgames.com in case you
need the address). The errata for the book might be there. If not, check out
http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/ which contains Joe Heck's
excellent Traveller oriented archives, I'm pretty sure you'll find the
corrections at one of those places.

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 21:46:51 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: SJG TNS: The Plot thickens...

At 17:06 2-1-99 +0100, Volker A. Greimann wrote:
>Hmm, i meant the two messages concerning Norrisand Isis trip to Capital.
>They were new to me. (And not sent to me although i had subscribed)

Ah.  I had read those already - but I found them on the web page whilst
looking for something else; they weren't sent to me, either.


James

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 22:44:59 EST
From: Thendal@aol.com
Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?

Others have done more with alot less.

Ask the founding fathers

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 00:10:28 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?

At 10:44 PM 03/01/99 EST, you wrote:
>Others have done more with alot less.
>
>Ask the founding fathers
>
        Sorry if I am a bit slow, but how does this relate to Traveller?

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 00:20:04 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Jamming

At 12:39 PM 03/01/99 EST, you wrote:
>Hi Michel
>I humbly apologize for my ignorance...

        No apologies needed.

>I wasnt aware of most of the possibilities of jamming you listed. But I
>have problems with understanding how this works, and I think the answers you
>non
>doubtedly have, will be of interest to everyone.

        I'd like to think so =)

>All those forms of jamming sensor imply that the jammer is sending signals.
>Couldnt
>you find the source of the signals ? 

        Yes, in fact some modern anti-ship missiles have an "anti-jam"
feature which if they loose the RADAR picture of the target, they instead go
after the largest transmitter down the target's last bearing.  As I said in
my prior post, when we were being jammed, our Electronic Warfare team could
tell us where the jamming attacks were coming from, what freqs were being
used, etc.  But the fire control RADARS for the missiles and cannon could
not sort through the interference to obtain a fire control lock.

>I understand and see the possibilities of
>mirroring
>a given blip but that would only (?) lessen the chance of a hit by the point
>defence.

        Yes.  The problem is that the CIW/PDW system has to take time to
attack *every* possible target.  Further, current anti-missile systems like
the US Phalanx gun engage the closest threat and keep firing at it until
they kill it.  In this situation, if the gun picks the wrong sensor blip, it
will empty its magazine at something that is not there, while the real
threat continues to close the ship.

>Thanks in advance for comprehensive answers !
>
>Andreas Reimer

        No problems.  EW/CEW is a very weird world;  I don't live in it full
time, so I hope I am being of use.

        Regards,
        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 20:33:52 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Trucks, Trucks, Trucks!!

>From: AveNelso@aol.com
>Subject: Re: HIWG Traveller Writers' Guild Digest V1 #317
...
>how many times I've thought  "All this work for a freaking TRUCK!"  --Since my
>games involve more ground action than Starship combat, I'd really like a Quick
>vehicle system.  (I bought FFS-2, but haven't had the stomach to try to use
>it--that's not the direction to go!).

  In all seriousness, something similar to the Car Wars system would do; 
just start by building some standard frames and power plants and then 
plug stuff together later - it should work as long as you've built a
template for every major type you want to deploy variants of.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 00:38:44 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: EW in Traveller

At 01:08 PM 03/01/99, you wrote:

>Michel,
>
>Jamming and EW equipment for Bruce's DSR are in FFS2. Basically, an active
>jammer costs double, uses double power and takes up 1/10th the area, while
>a passive jammer costs 5x, takes up 20x the power and uses up half the area.
>

        Ok.  I don't have FFS2, but for anyone else, its good to know.
"Costs double" as in the price of a base sensor.

>100 G missiles are an artifact of the CT missile supplement. You just cant
>build anything that fast under any other design system. Drop it to 10 gees
>and I dont have a problem.

        Hmmm...  I'll take your word for it.  I have issues with a TL 15
society unable to sling a sub 1 dton
 object for 16 minutes at 100G's.  Particularly if you don't have an organic
pilot.  But that's just me. =)

>Firstly, the example you are using is half a dozen first-line state of the
>art EW aircraft jamming one Canadian Naval Reserve ship. In Traveller
>terms, you were a TL7 (possibly TL6) vessel being jammed by a bunch of TL8
>jammers. Frankly, I'd be worried if you werent effectivly blinded.

        Actually, the ship I was on was a Regular Force frigate, one of
three ships in the SAU being engaged.  However, yes, you are right.  The
point was to demonstrate to us how badly an all out EW offensive could shut
us down.

>Secondly, anything that fast in Traveller is probably using Heplar, and you
>dont need to use active sensors to spot anything spouting jets of
>almost-fusing hydrogen (thruster plates cost MCr1 per 1600 kilonewtons -
>Heplar costs KCr 80 for 1600 kN, plus a single fusion plant <KCr200 at
>TL13>). Check out the probably passive signal of a 10 gee missile - passive
>decoys disguise the signal by fac 1 (FFS2, p74), while anything putting out
>10 gees of Heplar is at ?+1.0? under the DSR (the only thing hotter in the
>neighbourhood would be the local star).

        Again, I'll take your word for it.  Still, build me a sensor, and
given enough R&D I'll show you how to spoof it.

>Given this, I dont think jamming the active systems would count - we could
>get a LIDAR lock on the active missiles as soon as they boosted (2 million
>km LIDARS are about MCr 10 at TL13), then all we need to do is retain the
>LIDAR lock, and pick them off with lasers or counter-missile fire.

        So, I'll scatter a bunch of TL 15 "star flares" all along my path
and spin the missles on the axis with radical angled surfaces (or some such
other tech babble that decreases LIDAR effectiveness and blinds your thermal
sensors).  I see your point, but mine is that I only have to hit you with
*one* of them, and you have to hit *all* of them.  It is the old missile
validity issue that you and I have agreed to disagree on.  =)

>Now, you might be able to use a sandcaster on the nose of your missile to
>spoof LIDARs, but that is pushing your mass up, making you more vulnerable
>to area nukes in a point defense role.

        Except that, really, nukes ought to white out your point defense
electronics with the EMP meaning that any stragglers that don't get hosed
get a free move while your scopes reset.  I think there is a
Traveller-spawned warfare game that has sensor white-outs caused by nukes...
not sure.

>Ian Whitchurch
>
        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 01:51:06 EST
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Re: HIWG CD

> Why so limited?

1.	Nonprofit
2.	Limited license
3.	Next edition (last quarter this year maybe)


Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 01:03:06 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Happy Space:1999

At 12:08 AM 1/1/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>Yeah, so did I.
>
>--Clif
>>
>>I miss that dopey series a lot... I even had the toys when I was a kid....
>>
>
Heck, I still have the Dinky Toy versions of the Eagle Transport and
Freighter (along with the Enterprise and Klingon Cruiser).

Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 04:15:38 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: UCP (Was Re: Texas Revolts?)

Michel Vaillancourt wrote:

>         Sorry if I am a bit slow, but how does this relate to Traveller?
>

Very good question.  I gather someone was saying that secession
isn't possible from strong central governments, or something along
those lines, with others saying that Texans could do it.  As a Texan,
I must agree with the latter, the only missing ingredient being the will
of the people to do it.  But then, thats true of any state, at least through
peaceful means.  All that is required to be a state (in the international
sense) is to excercise _exclusive_ control over a piece of real estate.
To be 'legal', another state needs to diplomatically recognize that excercise
of sovereignty.  What Texas has, that many US states do not, is a
greater capability to control its border.  It would be much more difficult
to do, if challenged, for less populous, and less densely populated
states.

But as far as a connection to Traveller?  Lets see . . .

- --Traveller is an RPG that licenses its trademark to Steve Jackson Games
for the Gurps:Traveller products.

- --Steve Jackson Games is in Austin, Texas.

- --The US Government, specifically the Secret Service, and Steve Jackson
Games have had 'misunderstandings'.

Well, thats about as far as I can get.

But let me try to go somewhere useful:
A proposal for a Universal Country Profile

Unversial Country Profile (UCP) of
Texas B*7*744-9  Ag  200  Allegiance: USA
USA  B*7*845-9  (Ag In Ri)  300

Note: UCP needs a 2D Size scale and a new scale for Hydro.
I'm giving Texas Ag because it does have substantial water resources,
including large acquifers and a seacoast.  Not sure how to rate
hydro for one part of a world, perhaps surface groundwater
plus some portion of sea coast.  For US law level, I'm suggesting
an average level of 5, with 4 in states like Texas, Florida, etc., and
6 in places like Maryland, Massachusetts, etc.  The trade codes
for USA are suggested by scaling down requirement from UPP
and are only relevant to other country's on the same planet
or in the same system.

A UCP would be great for all those balkanized worlds out there.
And could work for multiple settlement systems, such as where
one system might have a main earth-type planet, a belting colony,
and a colony on other planets, etc., etc.  Scaling down Trade codes
would be helpful, and would be only relevant internally.  Although,
since some portions of a system might qualify for interstellar trade
classifications on their own, internal trade codes might be separated
by parentheses.

So, whats needed for a working UCP is
- - Size scale in 2D,
- - Hydro scale,
- - Internal Trade classications.

Atmosphere, Population, Government, Law and TL from UPP work
as is, although the extended Law profile from the Milieu 0 hardcover
might be of great benefit.  The Pocket Empires material also adapts
rather well to this scale, IMO.


Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 03:32:37
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: American soldiers firing on citizens...

At 02:38 PM 1/3/99 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 1/3/99 5:40:13 AM Pacific Standard Time,
brclif@digital.net
>writes:
>
><< 
> Then there is the threat of punishment for not obeying a lawful order, and
> who defines "lawful" but the people giving the orders? >>
>
>I guess we forgot Nuremburg....:-(

No, we didn't.  Combat Arms troops get extensive and repeated lessons in
the laws of land warfare.  We have incidents like My Lai and Kent State
rubbed in our faces to show what happens when one stupid f#&k decides that
he's god.

I've trained with the National Guard for riot control duty, and the one
thing they emphasize over everything else is restraint.
- --

+--------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry   dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/    |
+--------------------------------------+
| W E  B E A T  G R E E N  B A Y ! !   |
| W E  B E A T  G R E E N  B A Y ! !   |
| W E  B E A T  G R E E N  B A Y ! !   |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:48:17 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave (ws Re: Pluto's Secret)

From: David Jaques-Watson 
> Alan wrote:
> >I guess while we're explaining, I'll do this one too:
> >"Was it a time-travelling Avery who tipped off Strephon about Dulinor's
plot?"
> 
> Damn, Alan, that's MY plot device. I just hope none of my players are
reading this...
> (they aren't, BTW ;-).

So it's true?  I just thought I was making random noises.  :)

Actually, the idea is growing on me - it's kind of cheesy, but cute.

The other alternative explanation for the MT/TNE timeline is that it is a
psychohistorical projection - what would happen if the Imperium
had a crisis?  There's a Vilani influence in there, particularly in the TNE
part:  Uncontrolled technological development leads to disaster.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:48:29 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?

From: Clif 
> >whereas places like Colombia, Vietnam Cuba, and Peru _can_ develop local
> >insurgencies without foreign
> 
> Are you saying that these came into being WITHOUT the help of a foreign
> power?  I thought that was what the C.I.A. was all about?  Read the C.I.A.
> manual having to do with Psychological Warfare, Disinformation, and the
> formation of cells for Central and South American operations...  (Search
for
> those terms... last I checked you could still find the manual on the
Net).
> 
> --Clif

Clif, I could give you chapter and verse answers to these questions, but
I'm not going to, as it has bugger all to do with Traveller.

There are lots of politics lists out there - I'm on about six - and you can
talk about this stuff to your hearts content there.  This list is about
Traveller.

And no, you can find your own lists - I'm not telling you mine! :)

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 13:13:43 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: G:T merchant

At 12:22 03/01/1999, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:
>
>I am not a munchkin :) I just ruthlessly optimise :)

Hmmm,

is that another one of those irregular verbs...

I optimise my character,

You exploit the rule system,

He's a munchkin?

:-)

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1356
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, January 4 1999      Volume 1998 : Number 1357



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

World Builder Deluxe V3
GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)
Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4
Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4
Terran First Contact Timeline: Pluto's Secret (part 2)
re: Jamming
Re: real-world railguns
TFCT: Texas and Moses Adamson
Re: EW in Traveller
Empress Wave in Gvurrdon Sector...
Re: Empress Wave in Gvurrdon Sector...
Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)
Re: TFCT: Texas and Moses Adamson
Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)
Re: Texas Revolts?
Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)
Marava pic updates
Re: EW in Traveller
Re: Calendars
Re: EW in Traveller
Re: Empress Wave in Gvurrdon Sector...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 14:02:53 -0000
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: World Builder Deluxe V3

Version 3 of my WBD software is nearing completion. This version has two
significant additions:-

1) Random Number Seeding. Any World Details based on the same UWP and Random
Number Seed will always be the same.

2) The ability to automatically generate World Details for all of the worlds
in a complete Sector.

These two features will allow the quick creation of World Details for all
the worlds in the Imperium and will also provide a level of standardisation
which means that there is no reason why everyone will not have the same
information.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank Derrick Jones for his
assistance and suggestions during the programming of these new features. His
input has been extremely valuable.

Following further testing, V3 will be released on Saturday 9th January 1999.

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:39:04 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)

    There's a lot of fear on this list that GURPS Traveller is going to
become so popular that there will never be another edition of "regular"
Traveller. This is beginning to take on the proportions of the Y2K hysteria!
:)
    There is another way to look at this. Traveller may be SAVED by it's
GURPS cousin. Here's why;
    Classic Traveller gave way to MegaTraveller in 1987...which didn't do so
well in the marketplace from everything I've been told. TNE came along, then
T4, neither of which did that well for various reasons (although I've been
told TNE did ok until GDW's untimely demise). Now, if I were a game
publisher, I would find it difficult to want to take a chance on a product
that has failed mutliple times (this is in some ways an unfair perception,
but it may be the way some people think). Then along comes GURPS
Traveller..and it sells, and sells well from what I hear out of Austin. This
could show to a potential publisher of T5 that there is still commercial
viability in the Traveller line, at least as far as the background is
concerned.
    My personal feeling is that if and when Traveller returns to the
marketplace, it's going to have to be in the hands of another small-press
company, a start-up. If I had the money, I'd invest in such a company. Some
of you MIGHT have the money. Let's stay away from movie production companies
this time though, shall we? <g>

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 08:26:38 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4

Clif wrote:
> 
> Today I bought the one(?) Marc Miller's Traveller (4?) rule book, copyright
> 1996.
> 
> Is this all I need to play a Basic Traveller campaign...

Welllll...yes, I suppose you could.

> Are there any mistakes in it I should correct?

Check out the errata at:

http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/errata/

Go get the corrected set of QSDS (ship design) rules at:

<wherever the heck they are now, my bookmark of Guys's site crops up a
404>
 
> Anything in it you think is flaky?

The organization is rather confusing, and don't try to reverse-engineer
the ships in there using the rules in there :-(
 
> The artwork, except that done by Elmore, sure does suck...  In an effort to
> be futuristic and stylish, the artist(s?) really drew some functionally
> stupid ships and equipment, those parts of it that contrast enough that you
> can see them, that is.
>

Well, lots and lots of people will share your opinion of Foss' work,
that was one of the biggest gripes to immediately come out about the
book.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 11:14:14 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> writes:
>So T4 is not as good as CT?  How could you make a product that is worse
>than
>your own brainchild?  What I DO know is that *I* could have drawn better
>equipment and ships than what is in here...

By hiring writers that don't know anything about Traveller, and don't
care. By not paying your best writers. By not giving the writers time to
proofread your editorial and layout changes. By not showing Marc what you
publish until after it's in print.

THAT'S how you can produce a 'new' Traveller that's worse than any
previous edition.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:34:00 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Terran First Contact Timeline: Pluto's Secret (part 2)

Fellow TMLers,

The view that I've taken as the behind-the-scenes Pluto's Secret is
that the US discovered an Ancient Site filled with partial artifacts,
etc.  No jump drive was discovered; that was truely designed by the
Solomani on their own.  The Terrans were probably inspired by the
remnants of some media storage found amidst the rubble.  Knowing that
it was possible, the US/UN spends twenty or so years exploring
gravitics research, etc, trying to make jump happen, and finally
does.

I am partial to the thought of an Ancient depository of knowledge
left by a kind hearted Ancient for the fledgling humaniti, mostly
cultural information, or possibly a family library left behind in
the flight to reach safety during a Final War strike on the outpost
on Pluto.  (Thus, explorers discovered great Ancient literary works,
someone's not-necessarily-good attempt at poetry, the kids'
refrigerator art, whatever.)  The media has corrupted over the last
300,000 years, and the Solomani (and later the Imperials) are trying
very hard to advance their tech from hints gleaned from an Ancient
version of children education programs.  ("I love you; you love
me... Lieutenant, for the sake of Whoever's Out There, what kind of
translation is this!?!")

Thus, it is possible that Ancient Fairy Tales are pictured as
reality, and become a closely guarded state secret for over 3400
years after its discovery.

This way, the Solomani are not laden with too much of a
technological advantage (thus invalidating canon), while still having 
the inspiration to utilize the ingenuity that Yaskoydray saw in our 
species.

Ancient fairy tales may seem a bit out there, but the information
source should be a bit inoccuous for this explanation to work.  
Not everything found in an Ancient site should be the most 
militarily appropriate item.  Ancient sites were populated by people, 
and the Droyne have never been noted as racial workaholics.  
Entertainment, child rearing and other issues still exist for the 
general population, even in the middle of a Final War.  Also, it 
makes sense that this is the kind of thing people would leave behind 
in the event of a military strike, as they flee toward the nearest 
"bomb shelter" for protection.

Besides, I like the irony.  :)

In Service,
Jason
============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer I
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 08:59:31 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Jamming

>All those forms of jamming sensor imply that the jammer is sending signals.
>Couldn4t you find the source of the signals?

Probably you could. In the real world, this is called "home on jam" - missiles
that will hit active/area jammers. In the Traveller world, this probably means
that passive sensors will be harder to jam than active - it's very hard, 
for example, to jam a starring/imaging optical/IR sensor; anything you do just
makes the pixel you're on look brighter. You can (maybe) blind the sensor
with a very bright source (like a laser), but that just makes you easier to see
for the backup sensor that's behind a piece of smoked glass...

The ECM rules in my sensor rules set go with this assumption - generally you
can only jam passive sensors of lower TL, and no matter what, passive jamming
won't hide you, just prevent a precise fire control lock.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:01:52 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: real-world railguns

>>[railguns need lots of power]
>Couldn't we mount a thousand square meters of 24% efficient solar panels

Well, such a big array would be bulky and vulnerable (hard to point) - and
still pretty heavy; probably a couple of tons, including the hardware needed
to fold and unfold it. The solar arrays on the International Space Station 
are going to take several whole shuttle flights to deploy, and will only generate
tens of kilowatts.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:08:29 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: TFCT: Texas and Moses Adamson

Fellow Sophonts,

In the TFCT (Terran First Contact Timeline), I proposed that Texas 
seceded from the US during the Crazy Years, a world-class depression 
covering most of the 2020's.

I see that it has sponsored a number of comments, which I greatly 
appreciate.  In answer to the improbability of the above scenario 
taking place, I wrote of Moses Adamson's relatively unique psionic 
special ability to lock the minds of those whom he touched toward 
certain paths.  Several other questions have arisen.  Here are the 
answers I propose:

First, this would not have happened without an outside force.  Those
of you who know the military, financial, and political might of
existing governments have argued extensively of a point that I've
already conceded.  In this, you are right: in the RW, Texas would
most likely have been squashed like a grape, maybe with a fight,
maybe without.  Who knows?  No one does, but I appreciate the
feedback.

Moses Adamson used his ability on the US President, several key
members of Congress, various political supporters of other members of
Congress, and many others, in a planned manner to achieve his
albeit-unrealistic goal.  (As I've said before, a handshake is all it
takes, and it's very Texan of Adamson to want to shake the hand of
those that are about to make decisions affecting him and his dream,
the Greater Republic of Texas.)  His plan worked for his lifetime. He
died, and no more psionic disciplines exist to keep the GRT a stable,
separate, and viable political entity.  Texas, as a nation, must now
survive on its own.  Handwave complete, now "reality" can enter back
into the picture.

The US and GRT are moving toward reunification, and the Speculative 
History after First Contact will bare this out.  They will be united 
again.

For those of you who feel so strongly against TX's secession, you 
have convinced me that there should be a quasi-militant group in the 
US which is striving for the subjugation of TX and its re-unification 
with US.  Any input on a name?

From Isaac Asimov's Foundation novels, we can see one author's 
version of the affects that a person like Adamson can have on a 
galactic level.  I didn't want that; he's just a Texan with a dream, 
and the dream begins to fade with his death.

Final Point:

We have a lot of international representation on this list.  In 
order to develop a more believable presentation of the political 
situation of Terra at the time of First Contact, I would like to ask 
you the following question:

What nations, in your opinion, would be placed together into the 
political multi-national trade blocs established by the UN?

I will make adjustments to the TFCT based on the responses I receive. 
 I'd like to post a final version of the Timeline soon, but I'd like 
to have as much input as I can get before I do, so that it more 
closely reflects the international flavor I'm looking for, as opposed 
to my albeit-limited personal viewpoint and knowledge.

If you feel that there might be signifcant resistance to a
particular political/economic division, please feel free to mention
the presence of reactionary splinter groups opposing such in your
responses.  These add more flavor and opportunity for role-play and 
character development, as well as a source for bad guys/good 
guys/other guys.  (The Terran versions of the Ine Givar.)

Thank you for your time and support in this project.  I appreciate 
all input, and am looking forward to your replies.  WIthout the aid 
of the TML, this project would never have gotten as far as it has.

In Service,
Jason
============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer I
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:20:24 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: EW in Traveller

>>Jamming and EW equipment for Bruce's DSR are in FFS2.
>        Ok.  I don't have FFS2, but for anyone else, its good to know.
>"Costs double" as in the price of a base sensor.

There's some errata for this; on a second iteration I decided that jammers
don't have the same scaling laws as sensors, so there's a whole table for 
jammer sizes in some FFS2 errata/addenda. I'm still not 100% happy with it
(it makes jammers fairly small at the high end); it needs tweaking.

>        Again, I'll take your word for it.  Still, build me a sensor, and
>given enough R&D I'll show you how to spoof it.
I'm not 100% sure about that. Jamming imaging sensors is kind of like
jamming an eyeball that's looking for stars. You can blind it, or create
false targets, but it's very hard to make it think a real target is in the
wrong place with active jamming techniques.

In the missile case, HEPlaR-type missiles really are hard to hide. They're
(if you do the math) putting out gigawatts of energy even for a small missile
(for HEPlaR to work it has to be fusing most of its reaction mass); short of a
nuke, it's hard to imagine any kind of flare that could look like one (though
not impossible.) Add to the fact that decoys won't be accelerating while missiles
can, and the sensors job isn't really that hard. The decoys end up having to be
full-fledged missiles themselves, practically...

At TL15, though, thruster-plate missiles become more practical, and
harder to hide.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:26:16 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Empress Wave in Gvurrdon Sector...

My Fellow Sophonts,

If the Empress Wave is indeed propagating through the galaxy at the 
speed of light, and is due to impact the Spinward Marches in the 
early 1200's, then it is currently about 80 ly coreward.  That's 
about 24 to 26 parsecs, which would place the Wave somewhere about 
halfway through Subsectors E,F,G,H of Gvurrdon sector and all sectors 
spinward and rimward along that galactic "longitude."

Which means that it's already ripped through over half of the
Zhodani Consulate, including its capitol, IIRC.  (I don't have
resource materials here at work to check on Zhdant's location.  My
apologies.) 

Anything that would have affected half of the Consulate should have 
been mentioned in GT:AM1 (Z&V).  It wasn't, as far as I can recall.

Which means that one of three things must happen before the Empress 
Wave can enter into the official GT timeline:

1)  The Empress Wave must propagate at a speed greater than the speed 
of light.

2)  The Empress Wave will not strike the Spinward Marches until
much, much later in the timeline.  It takes more than 130 years for
light to cross a Sector along the core-rim orientation, and thus, if 
the EW is discovered by the Eighth Core Expedition, it will have to 
cut across the coreward reaches of Known Space before hitting the 
Imperium.

OR...

3) SJG would have to ignore the speed of light and do it anyway.  
Let's hope not, but TNE did it, so there is precedence in the OTU, 
unfortunately.

Thoughts?

In Service,
Jason
============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer I
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 10:43:32 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave in Gvurrdon Sector...

Jason Kemp wrote:
> 
> My Fellow Sophonts,

> Which means that it's already ripped through over half of the
> Zhodani Consulate, including its capitol, IIRC.  (I don't have
> resource materials here at work to check on Zhdant's location.  My
> apologies.)
> 
> Anything that would have affected half of the Consulate should have
> been mentioned in GT:AM1 (Z&V).  It wasn't, as far as I can recall.
> 
> Which means that one of three things must happen before the Empress
> Wave can enter into the official GT timeline:
> 
> 1)  The Empress Wave must propagate at a speed greater than the speed
> of light.
> 
> 2)  The Empress Wave will not strike the Spinward Marches until
> much, much later in the timeline.  It takes more than 130 years for
> light to cross a Sector along the core-rim orientation, and thus, if
> the EW is discovered by the Eighth Core Expedition, it will have to
> cut across the coreward reaches of Known Space before hitting the
> Imperium.
> 
> OR...
> 
> 3) SJG would have to ignore the speed of light and do it anyway.
> Let's hope not, but TNE did it, so there is precedence in the OTU,
> unfortunately.


You forgot

 4) SJG is legally allowed to use elements from the Rebellion/TNE
storyline. They are not, which is why, in essence, we have the whole
"Strephon walks out of the shower" alternate timeline thing.

The Empress Wave is not GT canon. Neither is Virus, the Rebellion, or
anything else after Dulinor assasinates Strephon in the GDW timeline.

Something may happen to disrupt the Zhodani in this timeline, but it's
not likely to be a all-disruptive as the Empress Wave was in TNE, as
that was really a plot device to collapse the Zhodani Consulate much as
the Rebellion, and Virus had collapsed the Imperium.

As outlined in AM1, there are several competing factions inside the
Consulate that may prevent them from proceeding to the Sixth Frontier
War; one will be the continued undercurrents of unrest in the Imperium.
While stopping short of outright Rebellion, I don't see the Imperium
getting too expansionist, which is what the FW's were all about.

What I do see is constant, low level friction and maneuvering along the
border, fitting right in with the currents of intrigue and submerged
conflict that sort of define the Spinward Marches in GT.

I see it becoming like the interface between the USSR and the US during
the 70's and 80's. Lots of 'incidents', but kept quiet and stopping far
short of outright acts of war.
- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:52:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)

- ---Allen Shock <ashock@gte.net> wrote:
>
>     There's a lot of fear on this list that GURPS Traveller is going
to become so popular that there will never be another edition of
"regular" Traveller. This is beginning to take on the proportions of
the Y2K hysteria!  :)

Actually, my fear is more that SJG will wind up publishing Traveller. 
That scares me because of the nature / flavor of many of their games
(Car Wars, Illuminati, et al)


>     My personal feeling is that if and when Traveller returns to the
> marketplace, it's going to have to be in the hands of another
small-press company, a start-up. 

(sigh) That's good and bad.  I don't know what the answer is.  I guess
that makes me part of the problem.  I know what I don't want but don't
have a clue how to get what I do want!  What I want is Classic
Traveller, improved and updated.  I want smaller books that lie flat
when open.  I want a CD with all the forms and charts and generation
spread sheets for NPCs and vehicles and ships and worlds.  I want the
basic stuff to be in a box.  I want to be able to run my own milieu or
a published one at whim.  I want more than one company to publish
supplements.  I want to be able to use my CT/MT supplements and
adventures.  I want on-line support and an official newsletter.  I
want an official ball cap.  I want more than I'll ever get, and
certainly much more than I can afford.  Junkies are a pain in the
neck, aren't they?


==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
IMTU 0601 tc++ tm !tn t4 ?tg ge- 3i pi ta+ he+ 
http://come.to/traveller

Visit the "Subsidized Merchant" - http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 19:03:03 +0000
From: "Volker Alexander Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: TFCT: Texas and Moses Adamson

> What nations, in your opinion, would be placed together into the 
> political multi-national trade blocs established by the UN?
- -Europe, or the EU plus some new members.
- -USA, Mex, Canada
- -The Tiger States of Asia, either with or without Japan, probably 
without China (always going their own way)
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:12:24 -0800
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)

  What I want is Classic
>Traveller, improved and updated.  I want smaller books that lie flat
>when open.  I want a CD with all the forms and charts and generation
>spread sheets for NPCs and vehicles and ships and worlds.  I want the
>basic stuff to be in a box.  I want to be able to run my own milieu or
>a published one at whim.  I want more than one company to publish
>supplements.  I want to be able to use my CT/MT supplements and
>adventures.  I want on-line support and an official newsletter.  I
>want an official ball cap.  I want more than I'll ever get, and
>certainly much more than I can afford.  Junkies are a pain in the
>neck, aren't they?
>
Sounds like what i want too.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 13:04:27 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?

Michel Vaillancourt said:

>>Ask the founding fathers
>>
>        Sorry if I am a bit slow, but how does this relate to Traveller?


Jason Kemp posted a message to the list concerning a timeline for Terra
between now and when the Terrans meet the Fist Imperium. Part of the
storyline had to do with the seccession of Texas from the United States of
America.

This sparked a number of posts about the 'reality' of such a thing.
Thendal's "ask the founding fathers post" seems to be in support of the
scenario that Texas might be able to win a revolution.

That's how it relates to Traveller. Someone's trying to expand the
background, and other folks are commenting on it.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 13:19:51 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)

Sword Worlder said:

>Actually, my fear is more that SJG will wind up publishing Traveller.
>That scares me because of the nature / flavor of many of their games
>(Car Wars, Illuminati, et al)


Not sure what you're getting at here. I like Car Wars, it's a fun game. I
like Traveller, which is also a fun game. GURPS products of all sorts and
flavors have been published ,everything from the hard science "Terradyne" to
the recent Discworld. Most of them don't get too much attention. Each one is
a sourcebook, not a product line.

Traveller is a product line not because Steve Jackson wants to get his
grubby hands on it and make it like Car Wars or Illuminati, it's a product
line because Steve Jackson really likes Traveller, specifically classic
Traveller. Personally, I have seen nothing but positive support for GT from
the Steve Jackson camp.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:39:37 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Marava pic updates

Thanks to everyone on the TML that sent me information, I've been able to
finish the Marava Class (aka Puking Dog) ship.  Please check it out at the
address below.  As always, comments are truly welcome.  Thanks again for
everyone's help & comments.  Loren, I've a seperate message coming to you
re: the sourcebook.

Best Regards,
Jesse DeGraff
www.vision-forge-graphics.com/trav.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 20:59:49 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: EW in Traveller

On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

> In the missile case, HEPlaR-type missiles really are hard to hide. They're
> (if you do the math) putting out gigawatts of energy even for a small missile
> (for HEPlaR to work it has to be fusing most of its reaction mass); short of a
> nuke, it's hard to imagine any kind of flare that could look like one (though
> not impossible.) Add to the fact that decoys won't be accelerating while missiles
> can, and the sensors job isn't really that hard. The decoys end up having to be
> full-fledged missiles themselves, practically...

  Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the HEPlaR drive's reaction mass
moving at relativistic velocities? I only know the rudiments of space
engineering, but I tried to do some rough calculations, and always ended
up with a velocity around 0.9c or so. If this is indeed the case, then
ralativistic beaming should become a factor. At these velocities a 
radiating mass should be beaming a major prcentage of its flux to the
direction of its motion, in this case away from the detecting ship. I
don't have any reference material with me and can't recall the formulas,
so I don't know how close to c you have to get for this to be a
significant influence, but it seems to me, that an object coming directly
at you under fusion drive might not be quite that simple to detect.

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 13:13:48 -0600
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Calendars

jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin) wrote:

> I'd really like to hear from Those Who Know what the exact
> corresponding dates and times are, so I can write a correct
> calendar program to convert between the various calendars.

I think the GDW Solomani book set 001-0 to 19 Jan 4521 (which happens to
be a Sunday, according to "cal").  Leap days cause the Imperial calendar
to drift, so 001-4 is 18 Jan 4525, and so on.  If my quick math is right
001-1117 would be 4 Apr 5637.  The first Oneday (002-0) would then be a 
Monday, although the week cycle would get out of sync on 001-1, since on
the Imperial calendar Holiday has no weekday.

> referred to as a 'sol'.  Similarly, the term 'year' is reserved
> for the standard Imperial year of 365 days; a local planetary
> revolutional cycle will be referred to as an 'ano'.

You know, "anno" might be a better choice; "ano" is a word in Spanish,
and it has nothing to do with "ao", the similar word for year....

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:07:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: EW in Traveller

Eppu Tuominen writes:
> 
>   Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the HEPlaR drive's reaction mass
> moving at relativistic velocities?

Depends what you mean by 'relativistic'; IIRC (haven't looked at the
computations recently) its between 5% and 10% of c, which is somewhat under 1%
dilation (if its over 12% of c, it's impossible even assuming all the reaction
mass is fused, since 100% hydrogen to helium fusion is only about 0.7%
conversion).  

Real issue is, even if 99.9% of the energy goes backwards, a HEPlaR thruster
still outputs upwards of 10 megawatts per newton of thrust.  The smallest
viable missiles probably have upwards of 100 kN of thrust, so that's a terawatt
of power.  A gigawatt of (unmasked) power going forwards is still plenty
visible....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 14:40:31 -0800
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave in Gvurrdon Sector...

Jason Kemp wrote:

> My Fellow Sophonts,
>
> If the Empress Wave is indeed propagating through the galaxy at the
> speed of light, and is due to impact the Spinward Marches in the
> early 1200's, then it is currently about 80 ly coreward.  That's
> about 24 to 26 parsecs, which would place the Wave somewhere about
> halfway through Subsectors E,F,G,H of Gvurrdon sector and all sectors
> spinward and rimward along that galactic "longitude."
>
> Which means that it's already ripped through over half of the
> Zhodani Consulate, including its capitol, IIRC.  (I don't have
> resource materials here at work to check on Zhdant's location.  My
> apologies.)
>
> Anything that would have affected half of the Consulate should have
> been mentioned in GT:AM1 (Z&V).  It wasn't, as far as I can recall.
>
> Which means that one of three things must happen before the Empress
> Wave can enter into the official GT timeline:
>
> 1)  The Empress Wave must propagate at a speed greater than the speed
> of light.
>
> 2)  The Empress Wave will not strike the Spinward Marches until
> much, much later in the timeline.  It takes more than 130 years for
> light to cross a Sector along the core-rim orientation, and thus, if
> the EW is discovered by the Eighth Core Expedition, it will have to
> cut across the coreward reaches of Known Space before hitting the
> Imperium.
>
> OR...
>
> 3) SJG would have to ignore the speed of light and do it anyway.
> Let's hope not, but TNE did it, so there is precedence in the OTU,
> unfortunately.
>
> Thoughts?

Waves can travel faster than the speed of light.  An example of this
exists in some spiral galaxies where the "arms" are just areas where a
wave has activated the stars in that region while the dark space is where
the stars have "died".  The actual stars aren't moving (faster than
light) but the wave that activates new stars propagates faster than
light.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1357
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, January 4 1999      Volume 1998 : Number 1358



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: EW in Traveller
Re: Empress Wave in Gvurrdon Sector...
Re: Empress Wave in Gvurrdon Sector...
Re: EW in Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)
Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller
Re: Texas Revolts?
Re: Marava pic updates
Re: Marava pic updates
Re: Texas Revolts?
Star density and exploration
Re: TFCT: Texas and Moses Adamson
Re: Marava pic updates
Re: Missiles (combustion lasers)
Re: Marava pic updates
Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4
Re: TFCT: Texas and Moses Adamson
Re: Empress Wave in Gvurrdon Sector...
Subject: Texas Revolts?
BITS website back up
Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4
Re: Texas Revolts?
[OT] Subscriber numbers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:09:05 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: EW in Traveller

On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Real issue is, even if 99.9% of the energy goes backwards, a HEPlaR thruster
> still outputs upwards of 10 megawatts per newton of thrust.  The smallest
> viable missiles probably have upwards of 100 kN of thrust, so that's a terawatt
> of power.  A gigawatt of (unmasked) power going forwards is still plenty
> visible....

  OK, duly noted. As I said, I'm not a space engineer. This, however
brings up another thought: TNE used HEPlaR in _everythig_ right up to grav
belts IIRC. The use of plasma drives iside an atmosphere always struck me
as somewhat dubious, and with these figures suicidial starts to have about
the right ring to it. Any thoughts? How have others dealt with this issue?

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:12:21 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Empress Wave in Gvurrdon Sector...

>Waves can travel faster than the speed of light.  An example of this
>exists in some spiral galaxies where the "arms" are just areas where a
>wave has activated the stars in that region while the dark space is where
>the stars have "died".  The actual stars aren't moving (faster than
>light) but the wave that activates new stars propagates faster than
>light.

I don't believe the spiral density waves that make stars travel faster
than light. (In fact, I'm extremely sure they don't.) 

There are other kinds of waves that can travel faster than light, but they
always turn out to involve some kind of subtle trick and never carry information;
basically they have to involve things that are repeating again and again and/or
things that have been set up well in advance. For example, if you had a 
bunch of people spaced out at 1 km intervals, each with a very accurate watchh.
Person 1 is told to raise his arms when the watch reads 12:00:00.000000
and lower them a millisecond later. Person 2 is to raise their arms at
12:00:00.000001, person 3 at 12:00:00.000002, etc. From a distance it appears
that the front of people-with-their-arms-raised is travelling at a million
kilometers per second, faster than light - but this is only possible because
conditions were set up in advance; no information is being sent faster
than light. Similarly the "Empress Wave" could only travel faster than 
light if it was prepare din advance and/or its only the latest in a series
of such waves...

re: the wave in G:T - in 1120 (the official G:T timeline) how far through the
Consulate is it? Will it have reached the capital yet? There was evidence in
the "official" rebellion timeline for internal fighting in the consulate...

Loren has dropped remarks indicating that Strephon was at the Longbow site
at the time of his assasination, so there is *something* interesting going on.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:09:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave in Gvurrdon Sector...

Joe Pettit writes:

> Waves can travel faster than the speed of light.  An example of this
> exists in some spiral galaxies where the "arms" are just areas where a
> wave has activated the stars in that region while the dark space is where
> the stars have "died".  The actual stars aren't moving (faster than
> light) but the wave that activates new stars propagates faster than
> light.

Actually, waves can't go faster than light, though things that resemble waves
can.  The limit is that something with non-zero information content (which
means non-zero energy) cannot travel faster than light.  Various simple
meta-objects can travel FTL fairly easily, at least for short distances (for
example, if you use a laser to create a spot of light on the moon, you can make
that spot of light move faster than light fairly easily).  Presumably what
you're referring to is a phenomenon like that.

Of course, none of this applies in traveller anyway.  A fast (high manuever)
ship with reasonable jump capability can easily pull off time travel in
Traveller.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:14:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: EW in Traveller

Eppu Tuominen writes:

>   OK, duly noted. As I said, I'm not a space engineer. This, however
> brings up another thought: TNE used HEPlaR in _everythig_ right up to grav
> belts IIRC. The use of plasma drives iside an atmosphere always struck me
> as somewhat dubious, and with these figures suicidial starts to have about
> the right ring to it. Any thoughts? How have others dealt with this issue?

HEPlaR was always a magic handwave.  If you interpret it remotely realistically
using HEPlaR in atmosphere is a quick method of suicide, as your exhaust
slamming into the atmosphere outside will create the equivalent of a low-yield
nuclear weapon (a HEPlaR thruster capable of lifting a person produces energy
equal to 2-3 tons of high explosive per second).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:21:36 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)

On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Chris Seamans wrote:

> Traveller is a product line not because Steve Jackson wants to get his
> grubby hands on it and make it like Car Wars or Illuminati, it's a product
> line because Steve Jackson really likes Traveller, specifically classic
> Traveller. Personally, I have seen nothing but positive support for GT from
> the Steve Jackson camp.

  My immediate impression of GT was, that it was closer to the CT look and
feel, than any other version since CT. (Including T4, but that's just
IMO.) Of course this might just be because I have never actually _played_
CT, just read through a lot of the material as reference.
  
  Be that as it may, I at least like GT a lot, and am going to buy
everything that comes out for it. (At least as long as the quality remains
at current level.) I'm not saying GT doesn't have its glitches, there are
some things that really annoy me (mostly small ones). The overall feel,
however, is that this is the most solid and professional work done for
Traveller in a (far too) long time.

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:09:47 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller

>Actually, my fear is more that SJG will wind up publishing Traveller.
>That scares me because of the nature / flavor of many of their games
>(Car Wars, Illuminati, et al)

Car Wars and Illuminati are board/card games. It's tough to compare a RPG to
a board game; very different style. A much more apt evaluation is to look at
the quality of their RPG products, which are GURPS and IN NOMINE, and in
both cases (considerations of quality only) the seem to do ok. I certainly
like GURPS Traveller; it captures the 'feel' of the Classic Traveller
setting in the way technology works and such very well.

>(sigh) That's good and bad.  I don't know what the answer is.  I guess
>that makes me part of the problem.  I know what I don't want but don't
>have a clue how to get what I do want!  What I want is Classic
>Traveller, improved and updated

Interesting..how exactly do you "improve and update" Classic Traveller and
still be able to call it Classic Traveller? Sounds to me like what you're
asking for is Traveller 5 :)

I know people are going to hate me for this, but just trying to bring back
Classic Traveller ala 1977 is simply not going to work. Other than those
systems that have been in continual publication since those days, games that
old will be seen as too archaic and limited for today's audience. and I do
not want to go back to the days of characters with two terms with 4 skills
and who die while being rolled up. A game that captures the SPIRIT of
Classic Traveller while giving me useful systems, good characters and good
combat rules is what I want...and that sounds like GURPS Traveller to me,
and it sounds like what I HOPE Traveller 5 will be.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 12:28:23 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?

>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?
>
>>whereas places like Colombia, Vietnam Cuba, and Peru _can_ develop local
>>insurgencies without foreign
>
>Are you saying that these came into being WITHOUT the help of a foreign
>power?  I thought that was what the C.I.A. was all about?  Read the C.I.A.
>manual having to do with Psychological Warfare, Disinformation, and the
>formation of cells for Central and South American operations...  (Search for
>those terms... last I checked you could still find the manual on the Net).

  The CIA was behind Uncle Ho, Fidel, _and_ Sendero Luminoso? Wow, I must
really be behind on my reading.

  OTOH, the 3I had IRIS, and they couldn't even convince anyone else that
they existed - talk about covert!

  FWIW, yes, I would entertain the possibility that those movements were
essentially endogenous and lacking physical support from outside, although
I'd never seriously considered their being backed by the CIA as an option.
Kind of like an Nth Communist International?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:32:18 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Marava pic updates

As usual, great work, Jesse!  Your stuff will probably be come the standard
upon which future Marava pics are based...

2 points of constructive criticism:

a) I liked the direction of the first Marava pic, showing the loading ramp
between the two cockpits...

b) the orange and yellow colors seem to corrupt the details of the ship
somehow... can't put my finger on them... maybe they could be toned down
with dirt?

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, January 04, 1999 1:32 PM
Subject: Marava pic updates


>Thanks to everyone on the TML that sent me information, I've been able to
>finish the Marava Class (aka Puking Dog) ship.  Please check it out at the
>address below.  As always, comments are truly welcome.  Thanks again for
>everyone's help & comments.  Loren, I've a seperate message coming to you
>re: the sourcebook.
>
>Best Regards,
>Jesse DeGraff
>www.vision-forge-graphics.com/trav.htm
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 13:45:34 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Marava pic updates

Wow...Jesse, if you don't mind, and when you get some time, maybe you
could post some pointers on how you model things, and make the realistic
looking textures for your ships...this (very) amateur artist would love
to know!

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:49:25 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?

The founding fathers had black powder vs. tomahawks and boys and arrows, not
black powder limited to 15-round magazines and the odd bit of fertilizer
explosives vs. satellite-level technology, hunter-killer copters, laser
microphones, laser-guided missiles, the list goes on...

A basic rule of strategy is that the one with the high ground wins the
battle.  With satellites, the Feds will win the war against any bunch of
rednecks, no matter how large in number.  If nothing else, a SEAL can always
walk a backpack nuke into their camp and blow them to hell.

Also, the founding fathers came REAL close to losing to the better-armed and
better-trained British, though I'm not sufficiently schooled in American
history to list the few things that probably saved the Americans' hides.

- --Clif


>Others have done more with alot less.
>
>Ask the founding fathers
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 15:07:24 -0600
From: Travis Foster <travisf23@earthlink.net>
Subject: Star density and exploration

Are there any resources that show how isolated a star is from its
neighbors? [i.e. stars that are x parsecs from their nearest neighbor]

I need to have the characters in my upcoming game be able to go to some
unvisited systems and I figure that the easiest way to do that is to find
some stars that were not practically reachable until Jump-6 drives were
developed.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 07:49:53 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: TFCT: Texas and Moses Adamson

From: Jason Kemp 
> Final Point:
> 
> We have a lot of international representation on this list.  In 
> order to develop a more believable presentation of the political 
> situation of Terra at the time of First Contact, I would like to ask 
> you the following question:
> 
> What nations, in your opinion, would be placed together into the 
> political multi-national trade blocs established by the UN?

None.  I doubt that the UN could "establish" political multi-national trade
blocs.  "Recognise" would be a better term.

At the moment the UN is essentially incapable of doing anything much
without the support of the US and/or the major European powers.  Thirty
years is not really enough time for that to change.  (For comparison check
out 1969 and today, although comparing 1939 to 1969 might be more
instructive.)

However, bloc emergence could happen from below.  The question is:  how do
they emerge as real, independent powers?  OK, leave Europe aside for the
moment.  Consider Latin America.

Could Latin America form a real trade bloc that excluded the USA?  Perhaps.
 Would it be easy?  No.  How could it happen?  Well, it would involve a
certain amount of violence....

IMTU, I've assumed certain political upheavals in Australia and Indonesia
that have given rise to closely politically aligned governments that have
hooked the two economies together.  This has been in the face of opposition
from other countries that didn't appreciate the nationalisations that
occurred...

I don't want to impose my model on anyone else.  I'm just indulging my
prejudices, and lobbying to have them accommodated to a certain degree, but
I don't feel the need to make them canon, or even "canon".

> I will make adjustments to the TFCT based on the responses I receive. 
>  I'd like to post a final version of the Timeline soon, but I'd like 
> to have as much input as I can get before I do, so that it more 
> closely reflects the international flavor I'm looking for, as opposed 
> to my albeit-limited personal viewpoint and knowledge.

This will give a better result, no matter the breadth of your viewpoint and
knowledge.  Actually, we still have a problem in that pretty much everyone
seems to be from developed countries with European-derived cultures.  Some
of the other lists I'm on have people from Third World countries, and their
perspectives are quite interesting, but alas they don't play Traveller...

At least we have reasonable political breadth.  (Far-left to far-right!)
 
> If you feel that there might be signifcant resistance to a
> particular political/economic division, please feel free to mention
> the presence of reactionary splinter groups opposing such in your
> responses.  These add more flavor and opportunity for role-play and 
> character development, as well as a source for bad guys/good 
> guys/other guys.  (The Terran versions of the Ine Givar.)

There are plenty of these in any potential bloc.

In Australia, there is still a fair current of anti-Asian sentiment that
would be opposed to a "looking North" strategy.  They would prefer
Australia to be allied to the US.  There are also alternative ways a
Northwards strategy could be carried out.  It could be driven either by the
left or the right, and the results would be quite different, and would be
opposed by the "out" group.  It would be a situation of "not their bloc,
but ours".  An example would be the different RW responses to recent events
in Indonesia.  Some Australian groups supported ex-President Suharto to the
bitter end, while others publicly called for his overthrow.  The same
division is occurring with respect to the current President, Habibie.

Any bloc will have internal and external opponents.  To some extent, which
are active depends on who the individual referee has running the place.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 13:57:13 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Marava pic updates

Thanks Clif!

You should be seeing more of that front ramp in the near future :)

With the color, part of it is a function of the size of the texture map.  I
used alot smaller map than the ones I did / am still working on for the Free
Trader, simply for speeds sake.  I also kinda' wanted to keep away from
using alot of black lettering so that it wouldn't interfere with burn
streaks.  A fair amount of it disappears anyway when you convert it to
grayscale, which is what the G:T books will be in.  Later down the road I
may do some more work with it.  In the meantime I've got a starport or two
to build!!!  :)


Cheers, Beers & Happy New Years,
Jesse



>As usual, great work, Jesse!  Your stuff will probably be come the standard
>upon which future Marava pics are based...
>
>2 points of constructive criticism:
>
>a) I liked the direction of the first Marava pic, showing the loading ramp
>between the two cockpits...
>
>b) the orange and yellow colors seem to corrupt the details of the ship
>somehow... can't put my finger on them... maybe they could be toned down
>with dirt?
>
>--Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 09:03:40
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Missiles (combustion lasers)

>From: "Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@iname.com>
>Subject: Missiles
>
>Greeting Fellow Travellers,
>
>I have sen considerable references to chemical-pumped lasers as an
>alternative to nuc-det lasers. Has somebody posted a design for one of
>these? Ian? Bruce? Anybody?
>

They are a bog-standard starship laser, except rather than a big bank of
accumulators linked to a battery or power plant, you use a big chemical
cartridge. Cartriges are 1 kilo per megajoule of input at TL11-12, 0.5 kilo
per megajoule of input at TL13-15.

Thus, a thousand kilos of cartridge at TL11 should give you enough juice
for a 200 MJ output grav focused laser ... the problem is that small lasers
are short ranged until X-ray lasers come along at TL13. You also need a
beam-pointer for what is in effect a one-shot weapon.

It isnt that effective, but it's better than pissing off the IN by using
nukes.

The page reference is p51 of FFS2. Technically, you shold also include an
autoloader and an evacuator, but I figure it's a one-shot weapons, so you
can leave them out. Just dont expect to recover any bits afterwards.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 14:05:42 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Marava pic updates

Eek!  No small proposition there, but I'd be happy to give a few pointers.
They will, however, have to wait until after the 15th and this project for
G:T ends.  In the meantime, there's alot of great info out there on the web,
which is where I learned alot of the sci-fi specific stuff.  You also need a
couple of different programs to do anything really meaningful, and none of
them are cheap.

I'll send you a seperate message later with some good tutorial bookmarks.

Best Regards,
Jesse



- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, January 04, 1999 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: Marava pic updates


>Wow...Jesse, if you don't mind, and when you get some time, maybe you
>could post some pointers on how you model things, and make the realistic
>looking textures for your ships...this (very) amateur artist would love
>to know!
>
>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 00:27:27 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4

On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, Chris Seamans wrote:

> Michael Peters said:
> > Of course TNE used the same engine as 2300 so you might want to look
> > fro a copy of those rules
> 
> I thought it was Twilight: 2000's rules set. My copy of 2300 looks nothing
> like TNE.

  That's correct, TNE and T200 2nd ed. use esentially identical rules. (As
did every other GDW game published at that time IIRC.)
  The Traveller rules that do have some similarity to 2300AD are the ones
in MT. The task systems are very similar, except thet 2300AD used 1d10
instead of 2d. I'm not sure if there are other similarities, but at least
I can't think of any right now.

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:51:41 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: TFCT: Texas and Moses Adamson

If I should ever get around to starting an Interstellar Wars era campaign,
i'll most likely included "Moses Adamsom" and his dream.  For MTU, it will
probably have been more of a revolt than actual secession and was eventually
defeated.  Not much in the way of actual warfare but not complete enough
support from the general population to actually secede.  Sure there would be
significant public support but oppossed by "loyalists."

How this affects Traveller (and boy some of those "what does this have to do
w/ Traveller" messages are getting really annoying.  At least include an OB
trav in the "complaint" email, if that's going to be sent to the whole list)
is it could severely alter the US.  A USA affected by a second Civil War or
losing one of its largest and most valuable states might not be able to send
the first Terran ship to meet the Vilani, which could change the whole
timeline all the way down.  What If's get funny that way...  

That's how it affects Traveller.  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:51:39 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Empress Wave in Gvurrdon Sector...

>  Which means that it's already ripped through over half of the
>  Zhodani Consulate, including its capitol, IIRC.  (I don't have
>  resource materials here at work to check on Zhdant's location.  My
>  apologies.)

The same thing circumstances existed in TNE.  It should've been well through
the Consulate w/ no effect in CT or MT sources.  In Real Life (tm), it's
because it hadn't been thought/written up yet.  DGP had ideas about
"Sparklers" and "Baddies from the Core" so there was concrete evidence
something was going to be happening, but not through most of the history of
the Consulate.   TNE used the evidence of this to support the EW.  The same
thing applies to the Vargr Extents.

There *have* been various surges of unrest and violence in the Vargr Extents
(at least according to Vilani & Vargr).  We don't have as solid a history on
the Zhos as DGP did for Vargr, as they never got their Wizards & Lizards
published.  I don't suppose there is a complete manuscript floating around? :
)    There are periods in the general Zho history that could be the result of
interaction w/ the EW.  Most specifically, for MTU at least, the Core
Expeditions coincided with crescendos in the effects of the various EW
phenomena.  In any case, they're intimately related to the Core Expeditions,
even if only through being the route cause.

Still, the Empress Wave is too often conceived of as a monolithic
event/phenomenon, when instead it's more likely to be a number of possibly
related phenomena, all of which could interact differently with different
individuals..  The wavefront itself seemingly has no appreciable affect.  It's
whatever phenomena follow the wave that seem to rip the Consulate apart (quite
suddenly) in 1201 by somehow inducing Zhodani on Zhodani violence.  

>  Anything that would have affected half of the Consulate should have
>  been mentioned in GT:AM1 (Z&V).  It wasn't, as far as I can recall.

Alien Races I left alot room IMO for the EW, from TNE, to still exist.
Whether it will as was intended in TNE, I don't know, but I doubt it.
 
>  Which means that one of three things must happen before the Empress
>  Wave can enter into the official GT timeline:
>
>  1)  The Empress Wave must propagate at a speed greater than the speed
>  of light.

It moves *at* the speed of light, according to the Regency sourcebook and
emanates from the galactic core.

For it to actually be the "real" Empress Wave would require: 

   4) Someone who knew what the EW was and what it would do.  It's author
isn't (yet?) associated w/ G:T.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 18:12:37 -0800
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Subject: Texas Revolts?

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) types:
>  So assuming that the US is relatively rare in being that effective a
>central gov't (Q: was the FRG behind the various terrorist groups there?),
>whereas places like Colombia, Vietnam Cuba, and Peru _can_ develop local
>insurgencies without foreign assistance (beyond perhaps the ideological
>motivations), is the 3I likely to be effective enough to be pulling the
>strings at the Empire-wide level?

   The local insurgencies in Viet-Nam started without foreign assistance, but 
they didn't get very far until foreign powers started pouring material in.



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Tatoos are the leisure suit of the 90s.  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 19:51:05 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: BITS website back up

BITS (British Isles Traveller Support)

The BITS website

http://www.bits.org.uk/

is now functional again.

Please discard the alternative address if you were using it, as things may
move around in the near future.

We're not sure exactly what happened but it appears to have sorted itself
out. The ISP was not aware of any problems. Y1.999k anyone?

Dom (BITS Webmaster)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 19:17:10 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4

Eppu Tuominen wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, Chris Seamans wrote:
> 
> > Michael Peters said:
> > > Of course TNE used the same engine as 2300 so you might want to look
> > > fro a copy of those rules
> >
> > I thought it was Twilight: 2000's rules set. My copy of 2300 looks nothing
> > like TNE.
> 

Mea culpa

Your right I mixed T:2000 and 2300 up. sorry.

Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com
"In this same line why do the Brits (no insult intended) have BITS?
Where
is the NATS (North American Traveller's Society)? After all it IS "Yanks
in Space" ;^> why aren't we yanks doing more to promote it?"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:37:57 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?

Texas revolts _me_. :-)

Sorry, couldn't resist that (and it's obligatory for me as a New
Mexican). If it makes any of the Texans feel any better, I'm sure I
prefer the texans to the easterners (like myself).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 00:57:57 -0000
From: "MindShift Design" <mindshift@usa.net>
Subject: [OT] Subscriber numbers

Just a quick question ...

how many people are subscribed to this list ? Anyone got numbers ?

I'm trying to work out a how many people play Traveller worldwide :)

Regards

Jason Paul McCartan
MindShift Design Game Studios
Game Developers
 "Altering Perceptions, Creating Worlds"

Home to the PBM/PBeM Developers Webring

email: mindshift@usa.net
website: http://members.xoom.com/mindshift

ICQ #: 16802661
AIM: Japem

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1358
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, January 5 1999      Volume 1998 : Number 1359



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Suggestions for Play by E-Mail Traveller?
Entering Jump
Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)
Re: TFCT: Texas and Moses Adamson
Re: Suggestions for Play by E-Mail Traveller?
Re: Magazine for T5?
Re: Texas Revolts?
MT vs. T4 ???'s
Re: Pluto's Secret
Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4
Re: Texas Revolts?
Re: MT vs. T4 ???'s
Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)
Re: HEPlaR (was re: EW in Traveller)
re: Combustion laser warheads
Re: MT vs. T4 ???'s
Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)
Re: Texas Revolts?
When Client States Go Bad
Re: Marava pic updates
Re: When Client States Go Bad
Re: Texas Revolts?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 19:20:28 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Suggestions for Play by E-Mail Traveller?

Can anyone send me rules for running a play by e-mail Traveller game? 
One player in my campaign has already moved out-of-state, and another
seems likely soon.

Much obliged!

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 18:44:53 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Entering Jump

Well, it's just about time for me to hit the road for my move, so
I'll be a bit slow to respond to any emails for a few weeks. As soon
as I send this out, I'll clone my files over to the laptop and pack
up my desktop before the packers show up tomorrow. I will be checking
email, but not as frequently. Don't be surprised if it takes me a
while ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 
   House for sale in Colorado Springs!
   http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 19:27:13 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)

At 10:12 AM 04/01/99 -0800, you wrote:
>  What I want is Classic
>>Traveller, improved and updated.  I want smaller books that lie flat
>>when open.  I want a CD with all the forms and charts and generation
>>spread sheets for NPCs and vehicles and ships and worlds.  I want the
>>basic stuff to be in a box.  I want to be able to run my own milieu or
>>a published one at whim.  I want more than one company to publish
>>supplements.  I want to be able to use my CT/MT supplements and
>>adventures.  I want on-line support and an official newsletter.  I
>>want an official ball cap.  I want more than I'll ever get, and
>>certainly much more than I can afford.  Junkies are a pain in the
>>neck, aren't they?
>>
>Sounds like what i want too.
>

        That'd be three of us.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 12:41:08 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: TFCT: Texas and Moses Adamson

From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
> How this affects Traveller (and boy some of those "what does this have to do
> w/ Traveller" messages are getting really annoying.  At least include an OB
> trav in the "complaint" email, if that's going to be sent to the whole list)
> is it could severely alter the US.  

Ok, first an apology.  I was one of the most recent "what does this have to do
> w/ Traveller" posters, and I did it while opening up cans of worms in
other messages.  This was probably just a tad hypocritical.

Yes, sorting out what happens to the US is important.  The idea of it
having a bit of a crisis is, IMO good.  This frees up the rest of the world
to form whatever blocs they (we) want.  Otherwise, its genuine economic and
military power would act as an obstacle to bending the world into the shape
material such as "Prometheus Rising" suggests it in.

Incidentally, I just had a look at the old CT Solomani module - it doesn't
refer to super-national blocs, just nations.

> A USA affected by a second Civil War or
> losing one of its largest and most valuable states might not be able to send
> the first Terran ship to meet the Vilani, which could change the whole
> timeline all the way down.  What If's get funny that way...  

Maybe the expedition to meet the Vilani was partly a face-saving prestige
project, to show that while the US was down, it wasn't out.

In any case, holding the US together, and putting it back together again,
is a heroic enough project to keep any number of PCs busy.  Of course,
whether or not it's Traveller, rather than some other game, is another
question.

<Sigh>  Writing a future history that would annoy the least number of
people was never going to be easy - that's why I'm glad someone else is
doing it, and trying to do it right.

Well done, Jason!

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 20:45:14 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Suggestions for Play by E-Mail Traveller?

On 01/04/99 at 07:20 PM,  Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> said:

>Can anyone send me rules for running a play by e-mail Traveller game?
> One player in my campaign has already moved out-of-state, and
>another seems likely soon.

I've been GMing PBEM Traveller for four years now, and playing in
PBEM's for six.  I'm afraid I have to report that there *are* no
rules.  ;-> I can try to give you a few guidelines, though...all
IMO.

Go to www.pbem.com and read the articles there on PBEMing.  The
advice given there (last time I looked) was good, but a good bit
more structured than I run my games. 

Go rules light.  The players shouldn't be bothered with rules at
all.  Give the players the background, the situations, and they play
their characters, the GM worries about everything else.  In my
games, the GM does all the die rolling, and there isn't as much of
that as in a FTF game.  The important thing is to keep the game
flowing and the players involved, not adhering strictly to any rules
or rolls.  Roleplaying over rollplaying is how *I* do it.  Ok, it
helps that I'm a heretic...or this might be why I *am* a heretic...I
don't know.  ;)

Be prepared for failure.  Sometimes, games just die.  Players drop
out, and you can't find folks that fit in with the group.  There are
scenarios that worked great FTF, that just don't fly when you PBEM
them.  The GM, and/or players, burn out, get busy, lose interest, go
on vacation, or drop out.  All this happens with FTF games, of
course, but with PBEM's you've invested much more time and effort
and failures feel much worse..at least they do to me.

I've found that the sort of players that thrive in a PBEM aren't
always those that are good FTF players.  Lots of people are shy and
under-aggressive FTF, but blossom in the PBEM environment.  The same
can be said for people that like (or need) to think things out
before they say/do something...in FTF games they are always being
drowned out by the snap judgment, fast talkers, but in PBEM's
things move slower and the thoughtful can get their thoughts
together, written, and out to the GM in a timely fashion.  

It is also important for both the GM and the players to be a
passable writers.  If the player can't write coherent paragraph the
GM, and the other players, will devalue their input.  If the GM
can't make the game "come alive" in writing the players will lose
interest and the game will die.

Be prepared for *slow* going.  In my "Akus Moby" game we've spent
over 2 real-time years covering 6 weeks of game-time.  This is
because we've been constantly interacting and roleplaying the entire
6 weeks.  In the "New Worlds" game (currently on hiatus, hell.."It's
dead, Jim!"  ;-) we covered about 18 months of game-time in just
over a year of real-time, because the game was a series of episodes
with long periods in between that we didn't play out.  What you have
to do is find a speed that fits your group and your style of game.
With Akus, if *everybody* isn't posting once or twice a day the game
is going too slowly and I worry about the game petering out.  OTOH,
I'm also in games where the rate is more like once a week..or a
month.  It just depends on the game, the GM and the players.

One thing to be careful about is situations where some players post
every other day and others post a dozen times a day...that happens!
It's really easy to let the rapid posters dominate the game and
drown out the slower posters.  You usually can't speed the slow
poster up, they generally have good RW reasons for it, so you have
to either slow the fast people down to a "party" average, or be
prepared to give them side plots that keep them busy, but don't let
them get ahead of the "party plot"...or both.  I currently have *6*
separate plots going in the Akus Moby game...not including the main
plot that the "party" is pursuing...and this is for a game with 8
players.

There's more work required in GMing a PBEM than a FTF game.  You
have to really craft your posts to the players to make the world and
situations seem real.  You have to put your exhibits (deckplans,
maps, pictures, etc) in electronic form and get it to them.  You
have to maintain your (and their interest) when one or two days, or
more, drag between moves.  You have to keep things organized and
juggle a dozen balls in the air without dropping any *and* be
willing to pick up and juggle any balls your players might drop too.

OTOH, if you are lucky, you get to play with *excellent* roleplayers
you'd never have a chance to get together on one room.  And you'll
make some good friends, too.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:19:23 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Magazine for T5?

Jeff Zeitlin said:

>The first one was, naturally, the original Journal of the
>Travellers' Aid Society.  This magazine had a primary focus item
>for each issue, and contained other useful items as well - short
>adventures, new equipment, alien races, animals, NPCs, and so on.
>Lots of stuff, very nice to have.


I can't comment too much, because as far as I know there weren't that many
copies of the other magazines that came out this way (Philadelphia). I've
picked up a couple of JTAS issues from local bookstores, but I've never seen
_any_ of the DGP magazines anywhere.

However, from reading your list I've got to say that I like the JTAS method
of handling things the best. In fact, I still use them extensively now,
almost like additional books for Traveller.

I'm not sure whether I'd enjoy the other types of magazine as much, or use
them as often.

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:27:12 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?

> Texas revolts _me_. :-)
> 
> Sorry, couldn't resist that (and it's obligatory for me as a New
> Mexican). If it makes any of the Texans feel any better, I'm sure I
> prefer the texans to the easterners (like myself).
> 
> - -Merrick

That's ok.  Its kinda hard to take insult when you don't even know 
where the Hell New Mexico is !!!! Aren't ya'll a suburb of El Paso? ;)

A Texan.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas Supernus Totus, Absque Honor

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:19:32 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: MT vs. T4 ???'s

Can someone convert the following MT skills to their T4 names and give me
the descriptions?

Vice
Physical

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 13:18:35 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Pluto's Secret

> I think it's probably the consensus that there's an Ancients site on Pluto.
> Certainly that seems the most popular...  Something like Antiquity, i
>suppose?

I have heard this theory before and don't buy it. If there was an Ancient
base on Pluto during the IW timeframe, how is it that the Ancients could be
such a mystery for thousands of years? At the rate Ancient bases appear in
some campaigns, I'm amazed the Vilani didn't have everything figured out
while Earth was in the iron age.

Moreover, I'm tired of every mystery and anomaly being explained away by
the Ancients. I think there was a letter in the MegaTraveller Journal
saying the same thing. There are thousands of parsecs of space over
hundreds of thousands of years in the Imperium, hasn't anything but the
Ancients happened in all that?

To add something constructive to the discussion, here is the reason Pluto
is red-zoned IMTU:

Even before interstellar contact Terran astronomers were puzzled by Pluto.
Its mass, albedo, and orbital characteristics didn't match accepted
theories. Early space probes showed a totally smooth, featureless sphere
and spectral analysis of the entire planet was that of a black body. Sensor
readings showed a homogenious interior. Probes landing on Pluto's surface
disappeared completely, like into an ocean, leaving ripples on the surface
but no trace of the probe beneath.

The planet was declared restricted and landings prohibited, but the
Interstellar Wars halted further examination. During the Rule of Man many
theories about Pluto were proposed, including that it was an Ancient
artifact, a vast ball of molecular acid, or some kind of wormhole. AAB
records showed that the Vilani, too, had encountered similar planets but
considered them an uninteresting kind of space hazard. Experiments
conducted from an orbiting research platform demonstrated that Pluto
conserved the mass, momentum, and charge of items hitting it. High-speed
impacts at shallow angles would spray particles of ices, oxides, and
hydrides, which had properties quite different from the planet as a whole.

Research was abandoned during the Long Night, but with the rise of
interstellar exploration Pluto's secret was investigated again. Nuclear
scanning and advanced computer modelling showed the planet was a kind of
atomic slurry composed of many atoms all at a state of maximum entrophy; it
was a completely new form of matter.

Since material scattered from the surface did not have the same effect as
the planet as a whole it the assumption was that Pluto contained some kind
of super-catalyst, something which triggered rapid chemical reactions in
anything it came into contact with. Experiments with reactive and inert
materials bore this theory out. It was hypothesised that at some time in
the past a particle of this super-catalyst hit Pluto and gradually
converted the entire planet.

The Solomani Confederation built an enormous industrial station in Pluto's
orbit during the early 100s to use the planet for chemical synthesis. The
station was plagued with accidents and eventually closed down in the late
400s when damper-mediated chemical synthesis proved cheaper and safer. The
owners dismantled the station and the Confederation red-zoned Pluto to
prevent any future accidents. It remains an interesting space phenomenon
into the 1100s.

I realize this is hardly canonical, but I wanted an astrographic, rather
than social, reason to red-zone Pluto, and this seemed more interesting and
less damaging to the established history than an antimatter planet or
something.

Comments by anyone with more knowledge in physics or chemistry are welcomed.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:54:13 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4

In a message dated 1/3/99 9:24:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, brclif@digital.net
writes:

<< 
 So T4 is not as good as CT?  How could you make a product that is worse than
 your own brainchild?  What I DO know is that *I* could have drawn better
 equipment and ships than what is in here...
 
 Is there an Errata for T4?  I'm still open to hearing what
 changes/corrections you up-to-the-minute Spacers think should be made for
 this book/rule system.
  >>
	There is/was errata for T4 at www.imperiumgames.com.   The T4 books were very
uneven.  "Starships"  was just awful, so was "Emperor's Vehicles".   The
"Emperor's Arsenal" was, apart from a few typos and mis-aligned charts, pretty
good as was the Milieu 0 background book.   If you look at Freelance Traveller
webpage, you'll find a couple of good alternate task systems that are pretty
good, but I did run 3-4 long adventures under T4 rules, and it was still a
pretty good game (you can easily use alot of the CT scenarioes as well
- --76Patrons most definitely).
	I  liked T4 for the most part and would look forward to a T5 that wasn't too
far off the basic T4 set up (better editing and a simpler vehicle system would
be nice).

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:57:16 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?

> Texas revolts _me_. :-)
>

That's ok.  Its kinda hard to take insult when you don't even know
where the Hell New Mexico is !!!! Aren't ya'll a suburb of El Paso? ;)

A Texan.


Nope, We sold it to the US government.  Texas just told 'em that the sand
was from a really big beach.

Another Texan

Thomas Vickers

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 23:03:59 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: MT vs. T4 ???'s

And these, also?

Interview
Recruiting
Liaison
Inborn
Interpersonal

When my Army buddies and I played 2300 AD, we compiled skills list from
numerous gaming systems and made a master list.  Does anyone know of such a
list in creation, now?

I'm afraid I'm going to have to make some additions to this skills list in
T4 and also add some Bondian attributes to the list, like Perception and
Comeliness.  I can't understand why Perception and even Hearing aren't seen
as essential attribute stats.

For one thing, if the character is a 12 comeliness female, she's GONNA get
through Med School
 one way or the other, if she has any ambition and is a little lacking in
scruples.  After Med School, she'll find it easier to get a job, get
promotions, raises, notice, etc.

That's just the way things work with humans, at least outside Zhodani
territory.

- --Clif
>Can someone convert the following MT skills to their T4 names and give me
>the descriptions?
>
>Vice
>Physical
>
>--Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 23:22:40 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)

In a message dated 1/4/99 9:24:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:

<< want more than I'll ever get, and
 >>certainly much more than I can afford.  Junkies are a pain in the
 >>neck, aren't they?
 >>
 >Sounds like what i want too.
 >
 
         That'd be three of us. >>
Make that four!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 20:25:43 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: HEPlaR (was re: EW in Traveller)

>  OK, duly noted. As I said, I'm not a space engineer. This, however
>brings up another thought: TNE used HEPlaR in _everythig_ right up to grav
>belts IIRC. The use of plasma drives iside an atmosphere always struck me
>as somewhat dubious, and with these figures suicidial starts to have about
>the right ring to it. Any thoughts? How have others dealt with this issue?

Ducted fans (which "Vampire Fleets" makes legal for thrusters for robots)
aren't a bad choice. Or an electrically-heated ramjet (fudging over
the fact that the numbers don't work) whose performance exactly matches
HEPlaR and/or assume a fusion-ramjet bypass mode for starship HEPlaR...


Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 20:28:28 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Combustion laser warheads

>They are a bog-standard starship laser
I would probably allow the focal array to be half the normal mass/volume and 
one tenth the cost (since it's single use - no need for cooling or fancy coatings.)
Possibly allow the combustion cartriges to be one-half normal volume and mass
also since they don't have to contain coolant and evacuator/cleaning gasses (which are 
a significant fraction of the needed supplies for a real-world chemical laser.)
That certainly makes combustion laser warheads practical at TL13 (non-grav x-ray
lasers.) Generous refs might allow x-ray combustion lasers at TL12 at some 
penalty. (In the real world, tech seems to have gone this way - we'll have TL8 
chemical laser weapons fielded before we have direct-energy weapons.) 

Another choice for civilian weapons is the "BB" type fragmentaiton 
weapon - that detonates at a thousand km into a cloud of ~10 gram 
penetrators with a few tens of MJ of energy each. Detonating that far out
you only have a 50/50 chance of catching an evading military target with even
one
BB, but a 2G target should catch 1d6 of them. The missile is extremely
easy to shoot dwon, even at 1000km, but again vs civilian-quality fire
control has a chance of penetrating.

(Both types - chemical laser and fragmentation - appear in my work-in-progress
Military Combat System as good civilian choices.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 23:25:53 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: MT vs. T4 ???'s

Clif said:

>For one thing, if the character is a 12 comeliness female, she's GONNA get
>through Med School
> one way or the other, if she has any ambition and is a little lacking in
>scruples.  After Med School, she'll find it easier to get a job, get
>promotions, raises, notice, etc.


You're assuming a 20th century worldview here.

1.) That 12 comeliness female may be from a world where _all_ healers are
female. As a result, her scruples and charms will not work. Or, in a culture
that is simply female dominated, perhaps the roles might simply be reversed.

2.) The background of Traveller can be assumed to be relatively enlightened,
even a 50/50 mix of men and women teaching at a med school makes the plan
you outline much more difficult.

3.) Comeliness is vastly overrated in an interstellar culture anyway. Keep
in mind that current standards of beauty and attractiveness (in the U.S. and
Europe at least) are relatively recent. These standards vary from continent
to continent, and further country to country. What may be attractive to some
may be disgustingly freakish to others.

And that's only on one small planet! Multiply that by a couple thousand
human inhabited worlds, toss in a couple of utterly alien human cultures
(the Vilani being the most notable), and the standards of beauty they might
maintain...

and voila! Your scenario is less and less likely to happen.

>That's just the way things work with humans, at least outside Zhodani
>territory.


Again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:37:05 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)

> >Sounds like what i want too.
> >
> 
>         That'd be three of us. >>
>Make that four!

Nope,  Five of us!!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:54:47 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?

> From: Bont <felix@felixcafe.com>
> Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?
> 
> > Texas revolts _me_. :-)
> > 
> > Sorry, couldn't resist that (and it's obligatory for me as a New
> > Mexican). If it makes any of the Texans feel any better, I'm sure I
> > prefer the texans to the easterners (like myself).
> > 
> > - -Merrick
> 
> That's ok.  Its kinda hard to take insult when you don't even know 
> where the Hell New Mexico is !!!! Aren't ya'll a suburb of El Paso? ;)

Nope, not even El Paso wanted New Mexico...  Hell, not even Old Mexico
wanted New Mexico...  *weg*

> A Texan.

From the only state in recent history to tell the US Government to F*** Off
with Real Weapons, Arizona...

> FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 21:11:31 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: When Client States Go Bad

>From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
...
>   The local insurgencies in Viet-Nam started without foreign assistance, but 
>they didn't get very far until foreign powers started pouring material in.

  Would that be the Japanese occupation or the late-70's clashes with the
Chinese* that you're referring to? :)

 (* memo to Beijing: Advise that client state is quite secure and no longer
needs our protection; our retreat is in tolerably good order...)

  Don'cha just hate it when a client state decides to go it alone?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:45:46 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Marava pic updates

>Thanks to everyone on the TML that sent me information, I've been able to
>finish the Marava Class (aka Puking Dog) ship.

Great work Jesse. To be honest, if I was making a 3D model of a ship I
would work off the deck plans and not drawings. So you noticed that the
deck plans and drawings don't even come close to matching each other as
well? Get used to it, in my experience most artists know nothing about

A) Physics
B) Engineering
C) Traveller

You could shrink the two front 'snouts' slightly to make it match the deck
plans a bit more without doing severe injustice to published drawings. At
least your turrets are domes and not WWII-era naval guns.

I suggest making the front loading ramp longer; that's a pretty steep incline.

The wooden crates seem a little anachronistic.

If you really think this is one of the ugliest ships in Traveller, you
haven't seen a Donosev-class survey ship yet.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 23:42:25 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: When Client States Go Bad

>  Would that be the Japanese occupation or the late-70's clashes with the
>Chinese* that you're referring to? :)
>
> (* memo to Beijing: Advise that client state is quite secure and no longer
>needs our protection; our retreat is in tolerably good order...)


He was referring to the Japanese.  The Viet Minh were not doing so well till
the OSS stepped in and armed them.

Of course the US also pressured France to stay out of IndoChina after the
war, but they didn't and the friendly Viet Minh turned on the French. I bet
the same weapons and supplies the OSS supplied worked real well against the
French too.

Kinda along the lines of "Hey, why doesn't our client state want us to come
back and take over again?"

TV

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 21:41:51
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?

At 03:49 PM 1/4/99 -0500, you wrote:
>The founding fathers had black powder vs. tomahawks and boys and arrows, not
>black powder limited to 15-round magazines and the odd bit of fertilizer
>explosives vs. satellite-level technology, hunter-killer copters, laser
>microphones, laser-guided missiles, the list goes on...

Bows and arrows?  Gee, I guess the Royal Army of His Britannic Majesty,
King George, had fallen on hard times.

Read a history of the French resitance.  The most effective weapon they
used was a single-shot .45 calibre pistol.  You had to disassemble the
thing to reload it, and the effective range was about 2 meters.  The idea
was you shot a well-armed German and took *his* gun.

For that matter, we had all of the things you mention in Vietnam, where we
fought mostly against foot mobile irregular infantry armed with SKS rifles.
 All the tech didn't help.

>A basic rule of strategy is that the one with the high ground wins the
>battle.  With satellites, the Feds will win the war against any bunch of
>rednecks, no matter how large in number.  If nothing else, a SEAL can always
>walk a backpack nuke into their camp and blow them to hell.

Why waste a SEAL?  That's horrible force management.  We had complete and
absolute air superiorty in the Gulf War.  Saddam is still thumbing his nose
at us.  Satellites have really helped locate those two men in the Nevada
desert wanted for killing a cop, or the suspected bomber hiding in the
Carolina woods.

ObTrav: How intrusive can a high law, TL15 government be?
- --

+--------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry   dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/    |
+--------------------------------------+
| W E  B E A T  G R E E N  B A Y ! !   |
| W E  B E A T  G R E E N  B A Y ! !   |
| W E  B E A T  G R E E N  B A Y ! !   |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1359
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, January 5 1999      Volume 1998 : Number 1360



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: MT vs. T4 ???'s
Re: Pluto's Secret
Beautiful Doctors (was RE: Mt vs. T4 ???'s)
Re: Pluto's Secret
Re: Texas Revolts?
Off Topic: Looking for Bands/Music
Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)
RE : Oppressive High-Tech Govts. (was Texas Revolts?)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1350
Intrusive TL15 Gov
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1359
Re: Texas Revolts?
Re: EW in Traveller
Re: NA National Borders (Was Re: Terran First Contact Timeline (RW sucessionist Issues))
Re: American soldiers firing on citizens...
Re: Terran First Contact Timeline (Texas Issues)
Re: American soldiers firing on citizens...
Re: Texas Revolts?
Re: Marava pic updates
picture of K'kree

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 21:54:59
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: MT vs. T4 ???'s

At 11:25 PM 1/4/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Clif said:
>
>>For one thing, if the character is a 12 comeliness female, she's GONNA get
>>through Med School
>> one way or the other, if she has any ambition and is a little lacking in
>>scruples.  After Med School, she'll find it easier to get a job, get
>>promotions, raises, notice, etc.
>
>You're assuming a 20th century worldview here.
<snip>

>3.) Comeliness is vastly overrated in an interstellar culture anyway. Keep
>in mind that current standards of beauty and attractiveness (in the U.S. and
>Europe at least) are relatively recent. These standards vary from continent
>to continent, and further country to country. What may be attractive to some
>may be disgustingly freakish to others.

Consider also that the Virushii (from an old JTAS) are considered to be
excellent doctors and surgeons.  Virushii look like armored hippos with six
limbs.  

Speaking as one of the chronically ill, trust me:  med students don't get
by on looks.  I've laid in bed while a thrid-year got grilled by the senior
resident on my case.  You have to be sharp to be a doctor, even at TL8!

- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 21:58:51
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Pluto's Secret

At 01:18 PM 1/3/99 -0800, you wrote:

>Moreover, I'm tired of every mystery and anomaly being explained away by
>the Ancients. I think there was a letter in the MegaTraveller Journal
>saying the same thing. There are thousands of parsecs of space over
>hundreds of thousands of years in the Imperium, hasn't anything but the
>Ancients happened in all that?

Hear, Hear!

The one time I ran a Solomani campaign, my explanation was that they had
found a burial site on Pluto that contained thirty human bodies.  Age:
300,000 years.  It wasn't an actual Ancient site, with all the neat TL35
toys, but just a real weirdie.  Later, Pluto became a natural site for Top
Secret research.

- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 01:14:54 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Beautiful Doctors (was RE: Mt vs. T4 ???'s)

dberry said:

>Consider also that the Virushii (from an old JTAS) are considered to be
>excellent doctors and surgeons.  Virushii look like armored hippos with six
>limbs.


Oh yeah.

This is all assuming standard Traveller. In GURPS Compendium I, there's a
new disadvantage called "Xenophilia"...

Anyway, the thought is frightening...

>Speaking as one of the chronically ill, trust me:  med students don't get
>by on looks.  I've laid in bed while a thrid-year got grilled by the senior
>resident on my case.  You have to be sharp to be a doctor, even at TL8!


I don't doubt it. This is a good point. I have yet to meet a doctor who made
it by on looks alone. I was just addressing the scenario that Cliff
proposed.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 01:16:02 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Pluto's Secret

dberry said:

>The one time I ran a Solomani campaign, my explanation was that they had
>found a burial site on Pluto that contained thirty human bodies.  Age:
>300,000 years.  It wasn't an actual Ancient site, with all the neat TL35
>toys, but just a real weirdie.  Later, Pluto became a natural site for Top
>Secret research.


Freaky! But I like it.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 23:29:40 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?

>From: dberry@hooked.net
>Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?
...
>For that matter, we had all of the things you mention in Vietnam, where we
>fought mostly against foot mobile irregular infantry armed with SKS rifles.
> All the tech didn't help.

  Heck, for the other end of the spectrum look at East Germany - the state
apparatus folded like a house of cards before the continuous pressure of
their own citizenry; amusingly, the leadership bowed to the inevitable even
though the various security bodies could probably have maintained a brief
emergency regime/civil war.

>ObTrav: How intrusive can a high law, TL15 government be?

  Too?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 01:31:53 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Off Topic: Looking for Bands/Music

WJP looking for Bands/Music--

Walker Jane Productions is looking for popular-radio style music to use
in its feature film "October".  If you are in a band, or you know
someone in a band that is looking for exposure, have them contact me.

I have received CDs of bands from all over the US, and I am looking for
those special few songs that perfectly compliment the story.  Although
this is by no means written in stone, we are playing around with the
idea of releasing a CD comprised of music used in the film.



WHAT we are looking for--

We're looking for popular-style music--like the songs you'd hear on the
radio.  Something that would play on the same radio station as music by
U2 is what we're looking for.  I've heard a couple of songs that I
really like, and if you are familiar with "You" by Cadillac Voodoo Choir
or "I Am" by Train, you know two of them.  The movie is a love story,
but every song used in the movie doesn't have to be (and shouldn't be) a
love ballad.  We need different kinds of songs for different parts of
the film.



WHAT we are NOT looking for--

This is a low-budget production.  We're not looking for music that will
require a large contribution from our budget to obtain rights.  In fact,
many of the bands we've talked to are willing to let us use their songs
just for the exposure it will give them when the film comes out.  Like I
said above, we may assemble a soundtrack CD--but this is still to be
determined.  We're not looking for Rap, Hip Hop, Jazz, Blues, or Country
style music.



A little about the film--

The story centers around a man named Christopher.  Like so many of us,
he
was struck with the first sight of a girl, years ago, back when he was
in
high school.  (__Captured with a glance__ is a lyric used in "You" by
Cadillac Voodoo Choir.)

She's the one he talks about when the guys are over, playing poker.
She's
the one he thinks about when a song hits him just right, or the weather
changes, putting him in that particular mood.

He was crazy about her the whole time he spent in high school, but
nothing
ever matured between them--always just casual friends.

The story picks up with Christopher, years later, at a poker game with
his friends,
when he learns that one of his close buds has seen her.  That old
familiar flame
comes back to him.  It's weird how it can hurt like that after all the
time.

He makes his decision, right there, that night.  He's got to do
something
about it.

"October" is about unconditional love.  It's about loving somebody so
much that you can't eat, sleep, or keep you mind
from racing while you do even the simplest things like watching TV.
It's about the kind of love that borders on obsession.

It's about the crazy things that feelings like this will make you do.

And, "October" is about what it feels like when love like this goes
unrequited.

The film is not a romantic comedy.  It's a romantic drama.  I'd put it
in
the same genre as Good Will Hunting, Chasing Amy, and Indecent Proposal,

leaning towards the first two because of its independent nature.



How to submit material--

Send me an e-mail and tell me a bit about your band.  I'll give you the
address, and you may forward a CD to us.  We listen to every CD we
receive.

Regards,

Kenneth Bearden
Walker Jane Productions
dreamer@brokersys.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 23:23:00 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)

Thomas Vickers wrote:

> > >Sounds like what i want too.
> > >
> >
> >         That'd be three of us. >>
> >Make that four!
>
> Nope,  Five of us!!

  Hey guys add up all the members of the list and their
friends and tha is how many we have.

Evyn...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 19:35:29 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: RE : Oppressive High-Tech Govts. (was Texas Revolts?)

David Berry wrote :-

> ObTrav: How intrusive can a high law, TL15 government be?

What toys are available at TL 15?

*Medical tech which could be abused :-
- -Advanced psychiatry, using destructive memory erasure and
brain-computer interfaces.
- -Reanimation and regeneration technology.
- -Gene directed biological warfare -> target individuals?.
- -Sophisticated broad spectrum vaccines could be changed into highly
toxic poisons.

*Sensor and security tech
- -Advanced sensors and surveillance technology (canonically, can view any
part of the EM spectrum with PRIS binoculars by about TL 12).
- -DNA and multiple biomap dependent security systems (location
forbidders?)
1984 type scenarios are logistically possible with sufficient computing
power and automation ("The Computer Is Your Friend!" <g>)

*For those ugly mob scenes :-
Vehicle sized meson weapons.
Collapsing nuclear hand grenades, or if culturally inclined, antimatter
'micronukes'.

Be afraid, be very afraid of oppressive regimes with access to hardware
of this sort...

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 19:31:41 +1000
From: Grant Sinclair <grants@dove.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1350

At 13:16 2/01/1999 -0500, Blair Lynch-Blosse wrote:
>
>While working overtime over the break I began mapping the Trojan Reach
>sector and have a few rapid fire questions.
>
>Firstly, can anyone point me in the right direction to some information on
>the history of the Trojan Reach/lower Spinward Marches, esp the space
>around Pax Rulin? Also, is there an reason why Pa'an is a Zhodani world
>when it is a really long way from the consulate boarders? I've got a theory
>(read: nice little story) that could be a LONG way from the truth, or is it
>just an anoying typo?

Pax Rulin subsector (and the one alongside it) was originally described in
the old GDW Adventure 4: Leviathan as at 1107. This explains the Zhodani
world in the "Referee's only" section.

The whole sector was subsequently written up in Travellers Digest 20 as at
1120. By then, Pa'an was listed as Na. The writeup does not include some of
the material from Book 4, though this may have been deliberate in some cases.

Finally, the sector would have been affected significantly during the New
Era timeframe, for a variety of reasons. I think that New Era stats were in
The Regency Sourcebook, which I do not have to hand.

You can probably buy these easily enough. If you want Adventure 4 and can't
get it from NZ, email me and I'll sell you my copy if you want it (postage
to NZ from Australia is presumably cheaper from elsewhere). There isn't all
that much about the world in Supplement 4 really, you could just as well
ignore it and go with your own thoughts.

(Oh yes, I seem to remember an adventure in Challenge or JTAS set somewhere
in Trojan Reach in classic era times, though I don't believe it was in the
coreward part of the sector and certainly didn't involve Pa'an).
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Grant Sinclair          Come, let us have some tea and continue to talk
grants@dove.net.au      about happy things. (Chaim Potok: The Chosen)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 09:17:22 +0000 (GMT)
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Intrusive TL15 Gov

On Mon, 4 Jan 1999 dberry@hooked.net wrote:

> ObTrav: How intrusive can a high law, TL15 government be?

Very ... unseen DNA analysis as you walk into your place of work ... they
would tell you want to have for breakfast and then watch you eat it ...
personal transmiters inplanted at birth ...


	Ewan Quibell
	Data Communications Technician        The Game's afoot:
	Computer Centre                       Follow your spirit, and apon
	University of Brighton                  this charge
                                              Cry 'God for Harry, England,
	E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              and Saint George !'

                                                    Henry V 3:1
	#include<stddisclamer.h>                    W. Shakespeare

	My spelling is entierly due to dyslexia, typoes and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 20:48:18
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1359

>From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
>Subject: re: Combustion laser warheads
>
>>They are a bog-standard starship laser
>I would probably allow the focal array to be half the normal mass/volume and 
>one tenth the cost (since it's single use - no need for cooling or fancy
coatings.)

The other complementary idea is to explain what beam pointers actually do -
if a beam pointer focusses the beam so it's the optimum width at a
selectable range, then you clearly dont need one for either personell
weapons (just fix the focus at five kilometers) or missile warheads
(factory-set at the 'combustion range').

>Possibly allow the combustion cartriges to be one-half normal volume and mass
>also since they don't have to contain coolant and evacuator/cleaning
gasses (which are 
>a significant fraction of the needed supplies for a real-world chemical
laser.)
>That certainly makes combustion laser warheads practical at TL13 (non-grav
x-ray
>lasers.) Generous refs might allow x-ray combustion lasers at TL12 at some 
>penalty. (In the real world, tech seems to have gone this way - we'll have
TL8 
>chemical laser weapons fielded before we have direct-energy weapons.) 

Welll, why not allow 'One Shot Combustion' at 1 MJ per kilo at TL9, 2 MJ
per kilo at TL 10-11, 4 MJ per kilo X-ray at 12 and 8 MJ per kilo X-ray at
14 ?

I'll gearhead up some combustion lasers given these assumptions.

>
>Another choice for civilian weapons is the "BB" type fragmentaiton 
>weapon - that detonates at a thousand km into a cloud of ~10 gram 
>penetrators with a few tens of MJ of energy each. Detonating that far out
>you only have a 50/50 chance of catching an evading military target with even
>one
>BB, but a 2G target should catch 1d6 of them. The missile is extremely
>easy to shoot dwon, even at 1000km, but again vs civilian-quality fire
>control has a chance of penetrating.
>
>(Both types - chemical laser and fragmentation - appear in my
work-in-progress
>Military Combat System as good civilian choices.)

Yeah. Mostly because of the no-nukes rule.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 02:18:14 PST
From: "Dave Hollenbaugh" <hollenbaugh@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?

>The founding fathers had black powder vs. tomahawks and boys and 
arrows, not
>black powder limited to 15-round magazines and the odd bit of 
fertilizer
>explosives vs. satellite-level technology, hunter-killer copters, laser
>microphones, laser-guided missiles, the list goes on...

I've been following this discussion closely, and would like to add my 
two cents.
A few years ago I read "The Fist Of God" by F. Forsythe. It went into 
great detail covering low-tech ways to hide things from high-tech 
surveillance. Technology is a good force multiplier, but it is not the 
crystal ball that most people assume. Too much reliance on high tech can 
be a weakness.
The thought of the Texas Nat'l Guard squaring off against the Regular 
Army reminded me of another great book, "The Art of Manuver" 
(non-fiction) by Robert Leonard. I highly recommend it to anyone 
involved in military oriented campaigns. The gist is that you don't have 
to (and shouldn't) line up toe to toe with your opponent and slug it out 
until only one person is left standing. Would the Texan's have to go 
tank to tank with a Regular division, or could a brilliant tactician 
find a way to win without directly engaging the Regulars?

- - Dave Hollenbaugh

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 00:16:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: EW in Traveller

In mail you write:

> At 01:08 PM 03/01/99, you wrote:
>
>>100 G missiles are an artifact of the CT missile supplement. You just cant
>>build anything that fast under any other design system. Drop it to 10 gees
>>and I dont have a problem.
>
>         Hmmm...  I'll take your word for it.  I have issues with a TL
> 15 society unable to sling a sub 1 dton object for 16 minutes at
> 100G's.  Particularly if you don't have an organic pilot.  But that's
> just me. =)

To quote Cheif Enginner Scott: "Y'kanna change the laws of physics"

Right now at TL8, we've *already* hit the limits for solid and liquid
fuel rocket engines. ISPs of around 250 and 450 respectively. 

100 g for 16 minutes is a delta-V of about 96,000 m/s. dV=Ve*ln(mass
ratio). Ve= 9.8 * Isp. So:

96000 = 9.8 * 450 * ln(mass ratio)
21.8 = ln(mass ratio)
2.84e9 = mass ratio

So you'd need a starting mass of around 3 *billion* tons for your 1
dton projectile if you want it to be able to boost at 100g for 16
minutes. 

Or else you need an Isp that's *way* up there. Let's try a mass ratio
of 2.

96000= 9.8 * Isp *ln(2)
14e3 = Isp

You can easily get that sort of Isp with an ion drive. But you can't
get the required *thrust*. So you'd need at least a gas core nuclear
rocket to achieve that 100g 16 minute performance. 

And even at TL15 getting something like that into a missile will be
difficult. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 00:32:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: NA National Borders (Was Re: Terran First Contact Timeline (RW sucessionist Issues))

In mail you write:

> At 02:10 PM 02/01/99 PST, you wrote:
>>
>>Try Oregon, Washington, Idaho.... possibly with British Columbia and
>>part of northern California....
>>
>>ps. We'd love to leave the US with Hanford, but it isn't practical...
>>
>
>         Hi, Leonard!
>         Ummmmm....  When did BC become a Yank property?  Last I heard, they
> were ticked at the US about Salmon overfishing?

Well, I'd heard they weren't terribly thrilled with the folks in
Ottawa. And since if this gambit *worked* they *still* wouldn't be part
of the US, what's the problem?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 00:39:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: American soldiers firing on citizens...

In mail you write:

> I was in the Army, myself, and I don't believe they would be as "faithful"
> to the American people as you think.  They get their paychecks from the
> Uncle giving the orders and many of them have wives and children and
> household goods living on post.
>
> Then there is the threat of punishment for not obeying a lawful order, and
> who defines "lawful" but the people giving the orders?

The courts set up by the *winners* (cf Nuremburg).

And for that matter when it gets down to the question of whether or not
an order is legal, often the civilian authorities get involved.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 00:48:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Terran First Contact Timeline (Texas Issues)

In mail you write:

> TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:
>
>> > In support of the secession, let me present the following:  By 2023,
>> > the United States has been engaged in a three-year Trade War with
>> > Japan and other major powers of the time, and are now two years into
>> > an eight-year long Depression.  Things are bad; the US has not yet
>> > recovered from the economic straightjacket it has found itself in.
>> 
>> I just don't see what the US would gain by allowing Texas to secede.  It loses
>> alot and gains little.  Hostilities tend to be good for economies (it was WWII
>> that ended the Great Depression, no?).  In addition, all US assets and tax
>> revenues from Texas are lost.  In addition, other states (particularly
>> California) would want to do the same and the whole thing would snowball.
>
> Well, the thing that could prevent that is requiring Texas to _pay_ for those
> US assets it is taking away... How many Airbases, National parks, etc are in 
> Texas?
>
> Also, there would be _lots_ of other states willing to jump through hoops
> (like signing no-secession compacts) to gain all those shares of Govt.
> contracts that various Texas corporations have and will lose upon
> secession...now, let me see, _how_ much business did Texas Instruments do 
> with
> the Pentagon last year??? ;-)

And how many of those parts are *avialable* from someone else? :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 00:37:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: American soldiers firing on citizens...

In mail you write:

> RSpake said:
>>Further more, I DO NOT KNOW OF ANY AMERICAN SOLDIERS who would follow the
>>orders to FIRE ON THEIR FELLOW AMERICAN CITIZENS...  They would desert
> before
>>they took up arms agasint fellow american defending their consitutional
>>rights...
>
> Historically, here in the U.S., soldiers have already fired on civilians.
> Kent State is one example. There was another time back in the twenties or
> thirties as well, IIRC. I'd have to look it up again though.

During the Veteran's Bonus March on Washington, General Douglas
MacArthur disobeyed *explicit* orders and set troops and tanks on the
marchers. He only got away with it by making it look like the President
had ordered it.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 07:18:05 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?

dberry@hooked.net wrote:

> ObTrav: How intrusive can a high law, TL15 government be?

And how well can TL15 irregulars foil the TL15 government's intrusion efforts?

Is there any intrusion effort that cannot be countered?  Not yet.

Of course, response need not be in kind.  In the Texas example, my primary weapon
would be video cameras with live hookups and I'd do everything I could to protect
the signal.  Public relations can tie the hands of the intruding government in
many cases.
One accident/attrocity/massacre and the fight may well be over.  I'd fake the
attrocity.
Maybe even fake it before the real fighting starts, and then cut comms to sell
it.
Then 'fix' comms with more footage.  And all this by way of diversion as my
agents
in the field [deleted by Greater Republic of Texas Security].

You can imagine what a few well-placed Texans behind enemy lines could do
to the technologically dependent and sensitive C3I structure of a US government
at odds with a secessionary state of over 20million, well-equipped, high
technology
possessing rednecks with attitude.  Keep in mind that for every Texan in Texas,
there are 2 that are elsewhere in the country.

Bloo
(A Texan in Yankeeland)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 09:13:05 -0600 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Re: Marava pic updates

>As usual, great work, Jesse!  Your stuff will probably be come the standard
>upon which future Marava pics are based...
>
>--Clif

> Wow...Jesse, if you don't mind, and when you get some time, maybe you
> could post some pointers on how you model things, and make the realistic
> looking textures for your ships...this (very) amateur artist would love
> to know!
>
>- -- 
> Bruce Johnson


See, Jesse? See?  I *told* you your pics turns heads but would you listen?
No!

;-)

(Bravo, Jesse, bravo!  I can't wait to see your next ones.)

BTW, folks, check out the rest of his group's website. There are some
*incredible* landscape scenes which are great for using in Traveller
adventures. Also some very thought-provoking poetry.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 08:16:50 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: picture of K'kree

I'd like to introduce my player character group to a few K'kree. It would be
easier if I had some pictures to show them.

Does anyone have any scanned pictures of K'kree they could email me?

Thanks
Erwin

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1360
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, January 5 1999      Volume 1998 : Number 1361



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: MT vs. T4 ???'s
Trojan Reach (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1350)
Re: Magazine for T5?
Re: Texas Revolts?
Texas revolts
Texas revolts
Re: American soldiers firing on citizens...
When Client States Go Bad
Re: Pluto's Secret
Re: HEPlaR (was re: EW in Traveller)
RE: Nobility
Re: Marava pic updates
Re: Marava pic updates
Re: HIWG CD
Re: American soldiers firing on citizens...
Traveller's Last Chance?
URL: 25mm SF Miniatures
Re: MT vs. T4 ???'s
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Pluto's Secret
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Texas Revolts?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 09:50:57 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: MT vs. T4 ???'s

At 23:03 4-1-99 -0500, Clif wrote:
>And these, also?
>
>Interview
>Recruiting
>Liaison
>Inborn
>Interpersonal
<snip>
>>Can someone convert the following MT skills to their T4 names and give me
>>the descriptions?
>>
>>Vice
>>Physical

Inborn, Interpersonal, Physical, and Vice were "cascade" skills - a player
who rolled one of these whilst generating a character had to immediately
choose one of the individual skills which were grouped under that cascade,
as follows:

     Inborn - Artisan, Carousing, Instruction, JoT, Leader
     Interpersonal - Admin, Interview, Liaison, Linguistics, Steward
     Physical - +1 Dex, +1 End, +1 Str
     Vice - Bribery, Disguise, Forgery, Gambling, Intrusion, Streetwise

As I never bought any of the T4 books (too pricey for my budget, and I
hated the artwork), I can't say if the concept of cascade skills was
continued in T4, or what any of the equivalent skills would be.


James



- ----------     ----------     ----------     ----------
HEAVEN is where all the police are English, the mechanics
German, the lovers Greek, and the cooks French, and it's
all run by the Swiss.  HELL is where all the police are
German, the mechanics French, the lovers Swiss, and the
cooks English, and it's all run by the Greeks.
                      (from a t-shirt I bought in Greece)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:02:12 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Trojan Reach (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1350)

At 19:31 5-1-99 +1000, Grant Sinclair wrote:
>Finally, the sector would have been affected significantly during the New
>Era timeframe, for a variety of reasons. I think that New Era stats were in
>The Regency Sourcebook, which I do not have to hand.

*The Regency Sourcebook* (pp 66-69) gives stats, both for 1117 and for
1202, for four subsectors of Trojan Reach - Pax Rulin (Subsector C), Sindal
(G), Gazulin (D), and Tobia (H).


James

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 09:40:07 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Magazine for T5?

At 18:43 2-1-99 GMT, Jeff Zeitlin wrote (IRT possible magazine formats):
>All three have their benefits, and all three fit into slightly
>different niches. (Just out of curiosity: which style was Sword
>of the Knight's Traveller Chronicle done in?)  I'd like to see a
>T5-focussed magazine; I'd be willing to try to write for it.
>Which format should it be in?  Or should there be three
>magazines, one in each format?

The few *Traveller Chronicle* issues I've been able to get my hands on were
more like MTJ (or possibly JTAS - I'm not really familiar with that) than
TD.  If there's going to be a T5 magazine, I'd much prefer that it be in
MTJ or JTAS format, without the long, continuing adventure.


James

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:11:55 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?

At 17:37 4-1-99 -0700, Merrick wrote:
>Texas revolts _me_. :-)
>
>Sorry, couldn't resist that (and it's obligatory for me as a New
>Mexican). If it makes any of the Texans feel any better, I'm sure I
>prefer the texans to the easterners (like myself).

Hmmmm....  Brings to mind my favourite quote about Texas (sorry, can't
remember if it was Sherman or Sheridan): "If I owned both Hell and Texas, I
would live in Hell and rent out Texas."

8)


James

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:34:47 -0800
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Texas revolts

Steve Hudson writes:
>>Are you saying that these came into being WITHOUT the help of a foreign
>>power?  I thought that was what the C.I.A. was all about?  Read the C.I.A.
>>manual having to do with Psychological Warfare, Disinformation, and the
>>formation of cells for Central and South American operations...  (Search for
>>those terms... last I checked you could still find the manual on the Net).
>  The CIA was behind Uncle Ho, Fidel, _and_ Sendero Luminoso? Wow, I must
>really be behind on my reading.

    I don't know about the others, but 'Uncle Ho' was doing work for the OSI 
during the Japanese occupation of Viet-Nam.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:40:50 -0800
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Texas revolts

Cliff types:
>Also, the founding fathers came REAL close to losing to the better-armed and
>better-trained British, though I'm not sufficiently schooled in American
>history to list the few things that probably saved the Americans' hides.

     The US won by making it too expensive for the British to keep fighting in 
North America.  They had other wars going on at the same time they felt were
more important to win.

     There is also the theory that some British Generals really didn't have
their
hearts in the fight.  Fighting the Americans, who mostly were of good
British stock,
wasn't same as fighting the French.

     Oh ya, the new legal limit is 10 rounds, not 15...


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"In 1991, [Vice President] Gore cited Bush's China policy as a reason he 
should be defeated for reelection, charging Bush sent his emissaries to 
toast the butchers of Tiananmen Square.'" 
Deborah Orin in the New York Post, March 26, 1997, the day after Gore 
drank champagne with Chinese Premier Li Peng, who helped plan the 
Tiananmen massacre 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:53:00 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: American soldiers firing on citizens...

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>> Then there is the threat of punishment for not obeying a lawful order,
>and
>> who defines "lawful" but the people giving the orders?
>
>The courts set up by the *winners* (cf Nuremburg).
>
>And for that matter when it gets down to the question of whether or not
>an order is legal, often the civilian authorities get involved.

One of the (successful) defences at Nuremburg was that allied commanders
had ordered similar actions. It worked for one of the German submarine
commanders (his lawyer pointed out that American sub commanders in the
Pacific used the same tactics - case closed).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 11:07:04 -0800
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: When Client States Go Bad

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) writes:
>>From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
>>   The local insurgencies in Viet-Nam started without foreign assistance,
but 
>>they didn't get very far until foreign powers started pouring material in.
>  Would that be the Japanese occupation or the late-70's clashes with the
>Chinese* that you're referring to? :)

     During the Japanese occupation, the Viet-Namese were getting assistance
from the OSS.

     By the late 70's they had plenty of material left over that the
Chinese and
Russians poured in during the Civil War with the South (You don't think they
built all those tanks?), plus all the stuff the Americans left behind.

> (* memo to Beijing: Advise that client state is quite secure and no longer
>needs our protection; our retreat is in tolerably good order...)
>  Don'cha just hate it when a client state decides to go it alone?

   Ya, doubly so when they go capitalist on you down the road.  :-)

Ob-Trav:  Plenty of Client state brush war fodder here for campaigns.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 09:06:55 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Pluto's Secret

>here is the reason Pluto is red-zoned IMTU:

>Early space probes showed a totally smooth, featureless sphere
>and spectral analysis of the entire planet was that of a black body.

Unfortunately there's an HST map of pluto (heavily interpolated, and perhaps
somewhat exaggerated, but basically reliable) that shows a non-homogenous surface.
Cool idea, though.

One alternative reason to red-zone Pluto could be liquid (superfluid) helium
life forms, beloved of Larry Niven though not wholly plausible...such life-forms
could be extremely vulnerable to contamination and hence need protection. 

Another reason: lingering radiation damage from some early interstellar war,
in which a Vilani fleet tried to conduct ice refuelling on Pluto's
surface and was hammered with nukes. 

The Ancient site isn't actually as terrible in this context as it could be,
since Sol was known to be of considerable interest to Gramps; there ought to
be *some* evidence left over. Of course, maybe the only evidence remaining is
a nanotech weapon (that only works at 10 kelvin) that turns anything it 
touches into goop...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 19:41:31 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: HEPlaR (was re: EW in Traveller)

On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

> Ducted fans (which "Vampire Fleets" makes legal for thrusters for robots)
> aren't a bad choice. Or an electrically-heated ramjet (fudging over
> the fact that the numbers don't work) whose performance exactly matches
> HEPlaR and/or assume a fusion-ramjet bypass mode for starship HEPlaR...

  Would a fusion-ramjet be something like the fusion air-rams featured in
GURPS Vehicles? That is, suck in local atmosphere (using fuel scoops as
intakes maybe), then use the fusion reactor to supeheat it and ram it out
as reaction mass. We have been using something of this sort to hanwave
away the problems associated with HEPlaR and atmospheres. Is this even
theoretically feasible?

  As for the ducted fans, I've been using them in 2300AD. (I use FF&S1 to
design my ships and vehicles in this game too.) However, it seems the
ducted fan stats given in FF&S1 are somewhat pessimistic. Even at TL-14 it
seems pretty difficult to design anything that will fly under ducted fans
alone. Should this be so? Also, should the thigns be quite this
astronomically expensive? 
  
- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:05:25 -0500 
From: rbarr@jax.openware.com
Subject: RE: Nobility

> Other possibilities include Imperial Facilities as fiefs (eg you run the
> starport), tax rights as fiefs (*thats* why refined fuel costs KCr 1 a
> dton) and revenues from blocks of shares.
> 
> 
	[Roger Barr]  
	After all, it is only distilled water...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:09:30 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Marava pic updates

    I can truly say "Thank you very much" to you David, as you're one of my
first admitted <dare I say it.....> fans.  Gee, hope this doens't swell my
head
any...Nah, I'll just have another beer and that'll fix it.  Actually, it's
only 10am here in California, so the beer'll have to wait 'til after work :)

    I passed you're comments over to the rest of the guys from VFG and they
all give
a hearty "Thank you!" as well.

Cheers, Beers, and Happy New Years,
Jesse



<snip of other great comments>
>
>
>See, Jesse? See?  I *told* you your pics turns heads but would you listen?
>No!
>
>;-)
>
>(Bravo, Jesse, bravo!  I can't wait to see your next ones.)
>
>BTW, folks, check out the rest of his group's website. There are some
>*incredible* landscape scenes which are great for using in Traveller
>adventures. Also some very thought-provoking poetry.
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:35:32 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Marava pic updates

Actually, I did slightly reduce and round out the snouts to try and merge
plans with artwork.  I didn't really wanna' take it much further than it is
'cause the shape just started looking whacked out.

I actually haven't modelled the folding and extending cargo ramps that I
think the design would HAVE to have in able to roll cargo in and out.
'Course, if you use grav cargo bots (like'll be in some upcoming pics), then
you don't need no steeeenking cargo ramps :)

The crates just kinda' ended up that color for the time being.  Alot of real
world cargo shipping containers range from a dirty orange all the way to a
burnt umber color (deep chocolate brown) in the reference photos that have.
They also don't currently have any texture maps.  Finished product for G:T
and future use on my site will look more realistic and less wood-like.  Of
course, on backwaters they may just ship it with whatever they have per an
earlier TML thread.

Damn, forgot about the Donosev!  That must be because one of my "friends"
LOST my copy of the DGP World Builder's Handbook.  I'm still pissed at him
for that.  You're right, that's one fugly ship.

See ya!
Jesse


- -----Original Message-----
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, January 04, 1999 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: Marava pic updates


>>Thanks to everyone on the TML that sent me information, I've been able to
>>finish the Marava Class (aka Puking Dog) ship.
>
>Great work Jesse. To be honest, if I was making a 3D model of a ship I
>would work off the deck plans and not drawings. So you noticed that the
>deck plans and drawings don't even come close to matching each other as
>well? Get used to it, in my experience most artists know nothing about
>
>A) Physics
>B) Engineering
>C) Traveller
>
>You could shrink the two front 'snouts' slightly to make it match the deck
>plans a bit more without doing severe injustice to published drawings. At
>least your turrets are domes and not WWII-era naval guns.
>
>I suggest making the front loading ramp longer; that's a pretty steep
incline.
>
>The wooden crates seem a little anachronistic.
>
>If you really think this is one of the ugliest ships in Traveller, you
>haven't seen a Donosev-class survey ship yet.
>--
>Richard Hough
>rdhough@home.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:54:41 EST
From: Thendal@aol.com
Subject: Re: HIWG CD

How can I get a copy of the HIWG CD?


Thendal

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:50:47 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: American soldiers firing on citizens...

Lenoard Erickson quoted what I said:

>> Historically, here in the U.S., soldiers have already fired on civilians.
>> Kent State is one example. There was another time back in the twenties or
>> thirties as well, IIRC. I'd have to look it up again though.


Leonard Erickson said:

>During the Veteran's Bonus March on Washington, General Douglas
>MacArthur disobeyed *explicit* orders and set troops and tanks on the
>marchers. He only got away with it by making it look like the President
>had ordered it.


I'm pretty sure that's the one I was thinking of.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:17:40 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Traveller's Last Chance?

Imperium Games says:

>WE ARE LIQUIDATING ALL TRAVELLER BOOKS, they're going FAST, and now is the
LAST CHANCE to buy TRAVELLER EVER!!!

When they say this, they mean THEIR Traveller books, right?

T5 is in the works, right?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 11:28:04 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: URL: 25mm SF Miniatures

  I'd recommend that anyone interested in excellent 25mm pewter mini's
suitable for use in Traveller games try the Stone Mountain Miniatures 
site:  http://members.aol.com/stonmtnmin/index.html

  The ones I picked up a couple years ago when our FLGS had them in stock
were routinely excellent - superior to almost every other product line I've
seen. They're priced at $US 1.20-1.50/figure, and they're exactly in scale
with Star Wars or GZG's Stargrunt figures; they are slightly smaller than
product from Hobby Products Metal magic line or Leading Edge Games stuff.

  Also, their "Ventauran Star Legion" line (catalog #'s 2xx & 510) are
the closest I've yet seen to Zhodani combat armoured soldiers.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 99 13:25:59 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: MT vs. T4 ???'s

On 01/05/99 at 09:50 AM,  James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net> said:

In T4 there was an effort to reduce the number of skills. I think it
got the number down to something like 90, compared to the approx 130
in MT and ~120 in TNE.

The number of Cascades was reduced to 3 (Aircraft, Blade Cbt, and
Gun Cbt), but most skills were grouped into related Clusters.  The
clusters worked much like cascades did, ie. if you get the cluster
you must pick a skill from its list, but you don't get a default
skill to other skills within the cluster.  The cascades did give a
default skill to other skills in their lists.

If you want skills that aren't listed you can add them, like I
did, even make up new clusters or cascades if you want.  I'll admit
it gets to be a lot of trouble if you then need to change the career
tables, but you will probably want to do that.

IAC, and IMO, the closest matches for the skills you asked about
are...

Interview.......Interrogation

Recruiting......none, Carousing or Fast Talk might do

Liaison.........none, Carousing and Admin might do

Inborn..........this was a cascade, the skills are spread out among
                several clusters
                
    Artisan.....Craftsman  (Technical Cluster)
    Carousing...Carousing  (Charisma Cluster)
    Instruction.Instruction (Academic Cluster)
    JoT.........JoT
    Leader......Leadership (Bureaucracy Cluster)

Interpersonal...same as with Inborn

    Admin.......Administration (Bureaucracy Cluster)
    Interview...see above (Criminology Cluster)
    Liaison.....see above (Bureaucracy or Charisma Clusters)
    Linguistics.Lingusitics (Sciences Cluster)
    Steward.....none, I made this one a cluster of it's on
                    Admin, CargoMaster, Carousing, Liaison,
                    Craftsman(Cooking/Bartending), Life-Support Ops
                    
Vice............name changed to Clandestine and type changed to
                Cluster from Cascade

    Bribery.....Bribery (Charisma Cluster)
    Disguise....Disguise (Clandestine Cluster)
    Forgery.....Forgery (Clandestine Cluster)
    Gambling....Gambling (Clandestine Cluster)
    Intrusion...Intrusion (Clandestine Cluster)
    Streetwise..Streetwise (Clandestine Cluster)

Physical........disappeared, if you want it you'll have to add it

And if you want to know how I knew this, I'm working on my own rules
again and have been rereading all the versions of Traveller to get
ideas.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:46:15 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

>Imperium Games says:
>
>>WE ARE LIQUIDATING ALL TRAVELLER BOOKS, they're going FAST, and now is the
>LAST CHANCE to buy TRAVELLER EVER!!!
>
>When they say this, they mean THEIR Traveller books, right?
>
>T5 is in the works, right?

The answer to your first question is "yes".  They are simply selling off
the stock of the game they published (T4).

Of course, these products will float around in the used gaming product
market for the next decade or so, so I'd say they were not exactly truthful
in saying this was the last chance to buy "Traveller" (T4 or otherwise)
ever.

As for T5, always in motion is the future.  Marc is patiently and carefully
developing the next incarnation of Traveller.  I will insert a dose of
skepticism here, although I am optimistic, and say that he has many steps
yet to take before a T5 book or books is/are published.  There is such a
thing as a "vanity press" which will produce whatever you desire in book
form for a price, but finding a "real" publisher, some company willing to
risk capital on a print run, and able to distribute to book/game stores,
would be preferable.

With Imperium Games lying in ruin behind it (GDW's end cannot be blamed in
any way on Traveller, debatably), T5 may be a bit of a hard sell.  It is
quite possible that the "legacy market" is the only one left (without
significant publicity efforts), and that market cannot absorb more than a
few hundred copies.

Our role, then, is to encourage a new market for Traveller items.  This
would have to be a grassroots effort to enlist young men and women (or boys
and girls) with a measure of disposable income to play Traveller in some
form so that when the next version of the game does arrive, there is at
least some new group of customers waiting for it.

I would suggest that we all go out and become middle school teachers, but
practicality intercedes.  Finding a game store and hosting an active game
one night a week is a close second.  Hosting a game period is a good third.

Strategically, the release of T5 could benefit from "Star Wars Hype", but I
don't think this is in the same category as the original movie's "splash".

Just my thoughts.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:50:37 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Pluto's Secret

> > I think it's probably the consensus that there's an Ancients site on
Pluto.
> > Certainly that seems the most popular...  Something like Antiquity, i
> >suppose?
> 
> I have heard this theory before and don't buy it. If there was an Ancient
> base on Pluto during the IW timeframe, how is it that the Ancients could be
> such a mystery for thousands of years? At the rate Ancient bases appear in
> some campaigns, I'm amazed the Vilani didn't have everything figured out
> while Earth was in the iron age.

They were already spacefaring then, so it's still kinda hard, no?  Hell, they
were spacefaring 1000 years before teh Sumerians started using cuniform
script.  Yet Terrans caught and passed them in a few centuries.

> Moreover, I'm tired of every mystery and anomaly being explained away by
> the Ancients. I think there was a letter in the MegaTraveller Journal
> saying the same thing. There are thousands of parsecs of space over
> hundreds of thousands of years in the Imperium, hasn't anything but the
> Ancients happened in all that?

Well I don't think they're used *that* much, but are still too readily
accepted as a solution, especially pre TNE.   In fact, my campaigns haven't
run across an Ancients site yet.  But that's in TNE, who's authors had the
same opinion as you. : )  Now we've run into Droyne and Chirpers a few times
and one player has gotten pretty curious about the Coyns...

I've already pretty much discarded the Ancients theory for MTU.  I was
thinking a Skunkworks type thing.   Rats & Cats only said the Imperium red
zoned it and *then* the Solomani kept it in force, but didn't seem to indicate
that it had been interdicted *before* the Imperial occupation.   An ancients
site would've been interdicted since the Interstellar Wars, if not before.

<snip>

Wow.  That's pretty good.  Probably what i'll use.  That or a skunkworks... or
better yet, both. : )

> I realize this is hardly canonical, but I wanted an astrographic, rather
> than social, reason to red-zone Pluto, and this seemed more interesting and
> less damaging to the established history than an antimatter planet or
> something.

No, not really.  Canon doesn't say what's there.  In fact, there seems to be
indications it wasn't interdicted until the Imperials occupied Terra.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 12:55:19 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

Yes, they only mean Imperium Games books (T4), and I certainly wouldn't send
them a check or anything. 

Imperium Games owes a bucketload of money to a number of creditors and also
has a history of taking people's money and not giving them anything in return;
at one point (and maybe still, for all I know) they were barred from selling
their stock of books, as their license had lapsed, and there were all sorts of
legal wranglings going on.

This cropped up a month or so ago. I think Marc was asked on the list if this
was legit, in light of what he had said before, regarding their right to sell
the material, and he didn't answer, unless I missed it.

IOW: caveat emptor!


Clif wrote:
> 
> Imperium Games says:
> 
> >WE ARE LIQUIDATING ALL TRAVELLER BOOKS, they're going FAST, and now is the
> LAST CHANCE to buy TRAVELLER EVER!!!
> 
> When they say this, they mean THEIR Traveller books, right?
> 
> T5 is in the works, right?
> 
> --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:53:09 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?

>At 03:49 PM 1/4/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>The founding fathers had black powder vs. tomahawks and boys and arrows,
not
>>black powder limited to 15-round magazines and the odd bit of fertilizer
>>explosives vs. satellite-level technology, hunter-killer copters, laser
>>microphones, laser-guided missiles, the list goes on...
>
>Bows and arrows?  Gee, I guess the Royal Army of His Britannic Majesty,
>King George, had fallen on hard times.

Right, good point.  I stupidly narrowed my recollection to native resistance
and forgot about "the bloody British".
>
>Read a history of the French resitance.  The most effective weapon they
>used was a single-shot .45 calibre pistol.  You had to disassemble the
>thing to reload it, and the effective range was about 2 meters.  The idea
>was you shot a well-armed German and took *his* gun.

But the frogs couldn't have taken Normandy alone.  The French were conquered
and it wasn't their resistance that liberated France.  Shooting one Nazi and
grabbing his gun is different from liberating your own country.  American
could have done much better in Vietnam if the politicians gave the
technologically superior(is this a good description for an M-16A1 vs. an
AK-47?  I don't know.  That's like starting the .45 vs. 9mm debate) American
soldiers the liberty to get the job done, this country would have done much
better.
>
>For that matter, we had all of the things you mention in Vietnam, where we
>fought mostly against foot mobile irregular infantry armed with SKS rifles.
> All the tech didn't help.

You had ALL of the things I mentioned?  I'd like to see some documentation
supporting that claim.  One thing is certain, the majority of American
troops didn't have most of those things.
>
>>A basic rule of strategy is that the one with the high ground wins the
>>battle.  With satellites, the Feds will win the war against any bunch of
>>rednecks, no matter how large in number.  If nothing else, a SEAL can
always
>>walk a backpack nuke into their camp and blow them to hell.
>
>Why waste a SEAL?  That's horrible force management.

Sure, but my point is that one man with high enough level tech can end the
thing.

>  We had complete and
>absolute air superiorty in the Gulf War.  Saddam is still thumbing his nose
>at us.

Oh, come on!  That was a decision made by Bush.  American troops were ready
to go stomping in there like bad asses and pull him out of there.  The
politicians want us to believe that the reason they didn't do it is because
they aren't bullies.  I've already voiced my opinion about why they didn't
attack him, personally.  And with these last 90+ bombs/missiles, it seemed
like someone was pulling punches.

>  Satellites have really helped locate those two men in the Nevada
>desert wanted for killing a cop, or the suspected bomber hiding in the
>Carolina woods.

First of all, how do you know that they are still there?

Second of all, how do you know they even exist?

Third, they aren't giving their location away by attacking any targets, as
in the situation I described above.  I would hardly call it a war...

Fourth, I wasn't talking about a wide-angle scan.  I was talking about,
"Roger, Whiskey Echo Fower Zeero, can you give me the SITREP on the enemy
over the ridge?"
>
>ObTrav: How intrusive can a high law, TL15 government be?
>--
If they can see through solids they can watch you getting amorous with your
wife.  How intrusive do you WANT them to get?
>
- --Clif

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1361
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Traveller-digest      Tuesday, January 5 1999      Volume 1998 : Number 1362



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: Surveillance
Re: Texas Revolts?
Re: Texas Revolts?
Re: American soldiers firing on citizens...
Client States, etc.
Aslan Ihatei
Re: Texas Revolts?
Re: Texas revolts
SJG
Re: Surveillance
Re: Surveillance
Re: Ship design standards
Re: Texas Revolts?
Re: Texas revolts
Re: Insurgencies
Re: Insurgencies
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1361
Re: Surveillance

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:04:32 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

As I was walking home, today, I saw a fat cat slink past me quietly, keeping
a wary eye on me.  Later, a couple of big dogs ran up to the fence with a
bunch of commotion and barked at me.

This got me thinking.

Do the Aslan and Vargr have certain strategies they prefer to employ when
fighting?

If they are anything like their non-upright counterparts, this is what I
envision:

ASLAN would use "hunt" in isolation, using stealth and silence, getting as
close as possible and then pouncing with tremendous damage (maybe using a
cloaking device?).  Or, they may just run down their "prey" with speed.
Perhaps their ships would have spikes on them and they would just ram their
enemies, not visible until almost too late?

VARGR would "hunt" in packs and pick the weakest target and overwhelm it
while the others ran away.  You could hear them "a mile away" and could pick
some of them off, but they'd get their "food" for the day.  Whether on the
ground or in space, they would have some kind of "howl" mechanism (hailing
frequency?) that would send chills down a human's spine.

Whaddya think?

- --Trying to Make Some Good Posts,
Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 12:16:59 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Surveillance

Clif writes

>[satellite recon]
>Fourth, I wasn't talking about a wide-angle scan.  I was talking about,
>"Roger, Whiskey Echo Fower Zeero, can you give me the SITREP on the enemy
>over the ridge?"

Certainly the consensus in the public literature is that we're a long way from
that level of (useful to tactical commanders) satellite recon; there are 
not that many imaging satellites, they have narrow fields of view, they take
time to point to new targets, and they only pass over given pieces of territory
periodically. Satellite recon is a theatre-level asset, not something for
"what's over that ridge". 

>>ObTrav: How intrusive can a high law, TL15 government be?
>If they can see through solids...

Probably they can't see through solids very well; of known traveller
technologies, only radar could really do this, and it's not hard to make a 
wall opaque to radar. Certainly they can't see through walls from satellites.
On the other hand, by TL-15, visible-light satellite imaging probably has 
reached the point where a cop on the beat can call up a real-time satellite
picture of who's waiting for him around the corner, at centimeter resolution.
There may even be a real-time record at a frame per second or so of the 
whole planet at 1 meter resolution and major cities at 1cm resolution,
going back a couple of hours...

So felons (=PCs) fleeing the scene of a crime could be tracked (until they
got indoors) by reviewing the tapes, if the crime was discovered in an hour.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:15:01 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?

>could a brilliant tactician
>find a way to win without directly engaging the Regulars?
>
But if a brilliant tactician refused to work for the Regulars after the
govt. oftened him better pay, threatened him and his loved ones, had the
media blackbawl, they could send some brilliant assassins to put him on ice.

A Texan militia would be looking for new highly-skilled recruits and it
might not be apparent that they are working for the other side.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:20:43 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?

> For that matter, we had all of the things you mention in Vietnam, where we
> fought mostly against foot mobile irregular infantry armed with SKS rifles.
> All the tech didn't help.

Not that i want to rehash this yet again, but the battles were won, just not
the campaign.  Tet was defeated.  It was the political will that was
destroyed.  Of course, the campaign had no objectives that could be
accomplished that would've allowed us to say "we won, we can leave now."   If
it would've been to kill or drive off Ho Chi Min, that would've been one thing
(the Soviet reaction another).  Instead we shouldered more and more of the
ARVNs role and it became politically unviable to continue. 

Ob Trav.  In the Spinward Marches region, pick a world in the Federation or
even Arden itself.. a world that has been courted by the Zhos and Imperials.
Toss in a seperatist movement on a world and and toss in the Darrians or
Swords Worlders to be the French.  Just because no guerilla wars have been
recorded doesn't mean they haven't happened...  Now connect all teh dots. : ) 

> Why waste a SEAL?  That's horrible force management.  We had complete and
> absolute air superiorty in the Gulf War.  Saddam is still thumbing his nose
> at us.  Satellites have really helped locate those two men in the Nevada
> desert wanted for killing a cop, or the suspected bomber hiding in the
> Carolina woods.

Yeah.  Don't use a SEAL, let to black UN Helos take em out. ; )  Saddam is
still around because of political reasons, not military ones.   Those 3 people
will be fine.  Try making them 30 or 300 and it becomes a whole different
beast, no?

> ObTrav: How intrusive can a high law, TL15 government be?

Depends on the govt and law level, no? ; )  As far as the Imperials...  IMTU
Imperial Intelligence mostly watched anything they cared to.  They were just
discrete about it.    In the Coalition, which is still young and developing
its traditions, there are competing factions of thought for it's intelligence
apparatus.  One of which is mentioned in TTCs Long Way Home and could go over
quite wrong as they "practice" on the home front.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:20:43 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: American soldiers firing on citizens...

>And for that matter when it gets down to the question of whether or not
>an order is legal, often the civilian authorities get involved.
>
And whose side are these coppers on?  Are they neutral?  How do they get
away with THAT when they live in the towns that are against the oppressive
government?

If the coppers are on the side of the secessionists, is the UN going to
recognize their authority if they are the enemy?

Sorry, but in a state of war the military is "What makes the grass grow
greener?"  "Blood, blood, blood, Drill Sergeant!"  and "Spray and Pray" and
"Shoot first, drop death cards later..."  NOT...

"What seems to be the problem, Officer?  Here are our Drivers' Licenses and
Registrations."

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 12:26:35 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Client States, etc.

>From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
>Subject: Texas revolts
...
>    I don't know about the others, but 'Uncle Ho' was doing work for the OSI 
>during the Japanese occupation of Viet-Nam.

  They would have happily dealt with the Devil to achieve national liberation
 - they later did with the Chinese and there wasn't much difference to tell
between the two from their POV. They certainly weren't real thrilled to have
the Japanese staying there.

...
Russians poured in during the Civil War with the South (You don't think they
built all those tanks?), plus all the stuff the Americans left behind.

  Of course not - they can thank heaven for the global politics that made
their entrepots for Soviet-bloc goods strategic sanctuaries.
  
  Plus, the NVA had a lot of experience; the PLA had learned some unpleasant
truths against the Indians but those lessons evidently weren't directly
related to battlefield application.

  To a certain extent, the 3I can look at a lot of its' member states as
being (internal) clients, or at least the ones that are either on the
frontier of the time or are big enough to be potential pocket empires in
their own right. It must certainly contribute to keeping the Imperium an
awfully careful overlord.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:28:45 +1300
From: Blair Lynch-Blosse <blairlb@waikato.ac.nz>
Subject: Aslan Ihatei

Hi all,

Thanks for the reply, I'm currently interested in the Aslan Ihatei Fleets
and the Imperial responce toward them following the assassination of the
emperor in 1116. My take on all this was that the Imperium was distracted
by the assassination, internal rioting and poor planning (with a little bit
of bad luck thrown in for good measure) thus allowing the Aslan fleets to
capture 20 systems (as per MT Rebellion Sourcebook p.60) during 1118 and a
further 10 or so in 1119.

Also, one of the keys to this has been the _Blitzkrieg_(?) approach adopted
by the Aslan. I've assumed that the previous Aslan Ihatei fleets have been
small (2-3 hugh people movers with half a dozen or so escorts) and once
they found a suitable system (occupied or not) they would settle and stop
advancing. I've formulated an Imperial responce to this and it has worked
in the past (a history created by me, so it's going to work :). The actions
following the assassination by the Aslan were more forceful and involved
hugh battle fleets to force the Imperial forces backward and exposing their
boarder worlds to colinisation. These fleets would continue to advance,
attacking key worlds and forcing the Imperial forces backward.

One of the problems I'm facing in constructing a timeline of events is the
length of time needed to capture a world. I realise this is kinda like "How
long is a piece of string?", but has anyone given any thought to this,
given TL, population size, bases present etc..?

Also, has anyone considered the possibility of compiling a Best of TML
site/newsletter/document with the key topics of the year in summary (eg.
deck orientation, micro-jumps, background music etc...). Just a thought.

TIA,

B Lynch-Blosse

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:30:45 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?

Now you're talking some sense!

>

>> ObTrav: How intrusive can a high law, TL15 government be?
>
>And how well can TL15 irregulars foil the TL15 government's intrusion
efforts?

Except that the oppressive govt. can be TL15 across the board while the
oppressed opposition is probably not as high in TL across the board, though
they may have gifted individuals and good (though non-standard) equipment
here and there.
>
>Is there any intrusion effort that cannot be countered?  Not yet.

Sure, if you want to put expensive tempest shielding around certain
important pieces of hardware.  How long does it take to slam a hole in your
building's tempest shielding with a cruise missile?
>
>Of course, response need not be in kind.  In the Texas example, my primary
weapon
>
>would be video cameras with live hookups and I'd do everything I could to
protect
>
>the signal.  Public relations can tie the hands of the intruding government
in
>many cases.

Now this makes more sense than anything I have heard, but it didn't save the
people at Waco.

>One accident/attrocity/massacre and the fight may well be over.  I'd fake
the
>attrocity.
>Maybe even fake it before the real fighting starts, and then cut comms to
sell
>it.

LOL!  Maybe YOU are the "brilliant strategist" mentioned?  This is getting
towards my point about the role media plays in such a thing.  Basically, you
are talking about an information war that you are going to have to keep up
with a better financed majority of the country.

>Then 'fix' comms with more footage.  And all this by way of diversion as my
>agents
>in the field [deleted by Greater Republic of Texas Security].
>
>You can imagine what a few well-placed Texans behind enemy lines could do
>to the technologically dependent and sensitive C3I structure of a US
government
>at odds with a secessionary state of over 20million, well-equipped, high
>technology
>possessing rednecks with attitude.  Keep in mind that for every Texan in
Texas,
>there are 2 that are elsewhere in the country.

I don't know whether that is true or not, but it sounds impressive.  :)  Now
you're starting to convince me...
>
>Bloo
>(A Texan in Yankeeland)
>
>
- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:41:15 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Texas revolts

>     The US won by making it too expensive for the British to keep fighting
in
>North America.  They had other wars going on at the same time they felt
were
>more important to win.
>
>     There is also the theory that some British Generals really didn't have
>their
>hearts in the fight.  Fighting the Americans, who mostly were of good
>British stock,
>wasn't same as fighting the French.
>


Thanks, I THOUGHT the distance might have had something to do with it.

>     Oh ya, the new legal limit is 10 rounds, not 15...
>
Isn't it great to be able to serve in the military and become a free citizen
civilian who was only sufficiently trained to be able to have 10 rounds in
his magazine, though in the service he was responsible enough to have 30?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 07:41:44 +1100
From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Subject: SJG

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David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 12:51:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Surveillance

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes:

 Probably they can't see through solids very well; of known traveller
> technologies, only radar could really do this, and it's not hard to make a 
> wall opaque to radar.

Well, sorta depends on what you want to see on the other side.  Neutrino
sensors, densitometers, and (as far as I can tell) neural activity sensors can
see through walls, though none of them are horribly useful for surveillance
purposes (hm...ok, I can detect people with fusion plants in their basements,
grav tanks in their basements, and can detect people at short range with
extremely limited information about who they are).

I would be surprised if they don't have chemical sensors which can track by
smell, however, though I don't immediately recall sources for such a device
existing.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:15:40 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Surveillance

>Clif writes
>
>>[satellite recon]
>>Fourth, I wasn't talking about a wide-angle scan.  I was talking about,
>>"Roger, Whiskey Echo Fower Zeero, can you give me the SITREP on the enemy
>>over the ridge?"
>
>Certainly the consensus in the public literature is that we're a long way
from
>that level of (useful to tactical commanders) satellite recon; there are
>not that many imaging satellites, they have narrow fields of view, they
take
>time to point to new targets, and they only pass over given pieces of
territory
>periodically. Satellite recon is a theatre-level asset, not something for
>"what's over that ridge".

That's not what I read about a big wargame "I can't remember where" that
took place not more than 2 years ago.  They even had Grid coordinates.
>
>>>ObTrav: How intrusive can a high law, TL15 government be?
>>If they can see through solids...
>
>Probably they can't see through solids very well; of known traveller
>technologies, only radar could really do this, and it's not hard to make a
>wall opaque to radar.

What happened to the sort of thermal imaging shown in Patriot Games and in
that recent Denzel Washington movie?

I would think that would be enough to even see that a husband was sensing an
urgency to get amorous with his wife.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 14:39:03 +0000
From: "Jens Maskus" <Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: Ship design standards

On Sun, 03 Jan 1999 03:27:55 -0600, Travis Foster wrote:

>large exploration starship.??


Look at Star Trek. You do not need a big ship. A 100-Scout is large enough to 
handle most task and situations and keep the main PCs busy. And let them make use 
of there skills!!

Keep the PC/NPC ratio at 4:2 so you the ref. can interact with them. If they have 
no NPCs the story can possible focus around the relations between the players. 
Which ist not always a good thing.

If you want to have more Exploration Displacements with you on the trip, take more 
Scout Ships with you. So you can introduce sudden changes with pushes and pulls.


- --------------------------------------------------------------
emailto:Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 17:24:05 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?

Clif wrote:

> Now you're talking some sense!
>
> >
>
> >> ObTrav: How intrusive can a high law, TL15 government be?
> >
> >And how well can TL15 irregulars foil the TL15 government's intrusion
> efforts?
>
> Except that the oppressive govt. can be TL15 across the board while the
> oppressed opposition is probably not as high in TL across the board, though
> they may have gifted individuals and good (though non-standard) equipment
> here and there.

Well, I don't know about your TL15 hypothetical, but if its similar to
the Texas example, the oppressed oppposition has the very best of what
the oppressing government has and is in many ways one of the vital legs
of the larget government.  Imagine a three-legged stool with California,
New York and Texas as legs (sorry other states, its just an example);
remove one leg, or just _weaken_ its ability to support the weight and PLOP!

> >Is there any intrusion effort that cannot be countered?  Not yet.
>
> Sure, if you want to put expensive tempest shielding around certain
> important pieces of hardware.  How long does it take to slam a hole in your
> building's tempest shielding with a cruise missile?

I don't know from Tempest.  Some of the key US defense contractors making
those cruise missiles, weapons, etc., are in Texas.  Wouldn't be too hard to
stockpile in preparation.

BTW, this discussion is getting too widely scattered between whatever
the TL15 hypothetical actually is and a Texas succession.

> >Of course, response need not be in kind.  In the Texas example, my primary
> >weapon would be video cameras with live hookups and I'd do everything I could
> to
> >protect the signal.  Public relations can tie the hands of the intruding
> government
> >in many cases.
>
> Now this makes more sense than anything I have heard, but it didn't save the
> people at Waco.

I'd rather not get into the Waco issue.  But the Branch Davidians had all kinds
of problems, including a lack of substantial public support. I think there can
be
little disagreement that the media there did at the very least slow down the
ATF/FBI.

> >One accident/attrocity/massacre and the fight may well be over.  I'd fake
> >the attrocity. Maybe even fake it before the real fighting starts, and then
> cut comms to
> >sell it.
>
> LOL!  Maybe YOU are the "brilliant strategist" mentioned?  This is getting
> towards my point about the role media plays in such a thing.  Basically, you
> are talking about an information war that you are going to have to keep up
> with a better financed majority of the country.

Nothing brilliant.  Its an old trick.  In World War I, the Germans took over
Belgian telegraph wires and broadcast false reports of French aggression
and requests for German assistance.  Of course no one would believe those
but that wasn't the point.  Confusion was.  IIRC, they did something similar
in WWII.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:20:30 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Texas revolts

In a message dated 1/5/99 10:53:13 AM Eastern Standard Time,
eclipse@ultranet.com writes:

<<   I don't know about the others, but 'Uncle Ho' was doing work for the OSI 
 during the Japanese occupation of Viet-Nam.
  >>
The  O S S  was the US spy agency in WWII,  the OSI was the group headed by
Oscar Goldman who built the "Six Million Dollar Man"

Dave N

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 09:26:47
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Insurgencies

>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?
>
>But the frogs couldn't have taken Normandy alone.  The French were conquered
>and it wasn't their resistance that liberated France.  Shooting one Nazi and
>grabbing his gun is different from liberating your own country.  American
>could have done much better in Vietnam if the politicians gave the
>technologically superior(is this a good description for an M-16A1 vs. an
>AK-47?  I don't know.  That's like starting the .45 vs. 9mm debate) American
>soldiers the liberty to get the job done, this country would have done much
>better.

I'm not sure what makes me sadder - what my country did in Vietnam, or the
fact that so many will not admit the alliance we were part of got our butts
kicked.

Allied troops in the southern portion of Vietnam had all the political
rights they needed - free fire zones etc . Direct intervention in the north
was limited by the threat of Chinese intervention, which the allied powers
wished to avoid for obvious reason. I'm really not sure what else Johnson
could have done, but I'm sure the proponents of the 'stab in the back'
theory will be able to think of something.

I'm sure it wont be anything useful, like instituting a crash course in
Vietnamese for all soldiers pre-posting.

Quite simply, the Americans and their allies were out-thought and
out-generalled, and were completely unprepared for the reality that the
Vietnamese were going through a social revolution (eg land reform in the
Mekong delta ... best way to turn a Communist into a Christian Democrat is
to give him a quarter-acre, two pigs and a dozen chickens. Unfortunatly,
much hard work and effort by the RVN government turned the Mekong delta's
landowning pattern back to a few big landowners and lots of landless
peasants).

<crap deleted>

>Sure, but my point is that one man with high enough level tech can end the
>thing.
>

Bullshit. Total horseshit. The key to counter-insurgency is to realise that
it is a political exersise. The military stuff is just a mostly-irrelevant
sideshow.

Politics is technology-neutral.

>>  We had complete and
>>absolute air superiorty in the Gulf War.  Saddam is still thumbing his nose
>>at us.
>
>Oh, come on!  That was a decision made by Bush.  American troops were ready
>to go stomping in there like bad asses and pull him out of there.  The
>politicians want us to believe that the reason they didn't do it is because
>they aren't bullies.  I've already voiced my opinion about why they didn't
>attack him, personally.  And with these last 90+ bombs/missiles, it seemed
>like someone was pulling punches.
>

Clif, let me introduce you to the Political Facts of Life, as they apply to
Iraq.

Fact One : There are two and two halves viable governments in Iraq.
Government one is the Ba'ath Party (aka Saddam, relatives and buddies).
Government two is the Communist Party of Iraq, who are unreconstructed
Stalinists. Half number one is the Kurds. Turkey, a US ally, has a Kurd
Problem, and avoiding a viable Kurdish state in ex-Iraq is an absolute key
of Turkish foriegn policy. Half number two is Iran, who would quite happily
set up a puppet state among the Shi'ites of the south.

Everyone else is in exile, dead or both. I'll say one thing for Leninists -
they are damn good at surviving very oppressive governments.

Fact Two : Iraq has lots of oil. While it is not exporting it, it's share
of proven world reserves goes up.

Fact Three : Iraq is between Iran and the Western client states of the Gulf.


Now, the UN forces *could* have knocked over Saddam at the end of the
Second Gulf War (remember the first one, where our good buddy Saddam was
fighting those nasty Iranians for us ?) ... the problem is what you do
next. Iraq isnt post-Nazi germany, which had a democratic history at least.
It isnt Vichy France, where you could construct a client state after
conquest that could maintain order for you. It's Iraq, and the Ba'ath party
has been liquidating it's opponents for thirty years.

What ye shall sow, so shall ye reap.

Now, hauling this ruthlessly back onto Trav, the Imperium will often be in
a situation of kingmaker.

What does the Imperium do when it has suppressed a rebellion ? Does it
install and attempt to maintain a puppet government, or does it 'restore
order' and then sail away, with a warning not to do it again (isnt it Dlan
that has that nice sterile band around the equator ?).

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:40:51 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Insurgencies

In a message dated 1/5/99 5:31:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, ianw@orac.net.au
writes:

<< crap deleted>
 
 >Sure, but my point is that one man with high enough level tech can end the
 >thing.
 >
 
 Bullshit. Total horseshit. The key to counter-insurgency is to realise that
 it is a political exersise. The military stuff is just a mostly-irrelevant
 sideshow.
 
 Politics is technology-neutral.
  >>
	If you want some grist for your thoughts on insurgency, the military, plus
alot of good Traveller ideas, read the Sci-Fi book series   "Falkenberg's
Legion"  by Jerry Pournelle and S.M. Stirling _the books are Falkenberg's
Legion (consisting of two older books The Mercenary and West of Honor combined
in one volume), Prince of Mercenaries,  Go Tell the Spartans, and Prince of
Sparta.    It's future history has been more or less rendered moot by the
collapse of the Soviet Union, but it has a lot to say about how the military
must act in response to classic leftist insurgency (the answers may not always
be pretty, but ring more or less true).  Besides, they are a ripping good read
(and each one is actually better than the last).

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 22:46:46 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1361

On Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:59:04 -0500, you wrote:

>Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:53:00 -0500
>From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
>Subject: Re: American soldiers firing on citizens...
>
>shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>>> Then there is the threat of punishment for not obeying a lawful order,
>>and
>>> who defines "lawful" but the people giving the orders?
>>
>>The courts set up by the *winners* (cf Nuremburg).
>>
>>And for that matter when it gets down to the question of whether or not
>>an order is legal, often the civilian authorities get involved.
>
>One of the (successful) defences at Nuremburg was that allied commanders
>had ordered similar actions. It worked for one of the German submarine
>commanders (his lawyer pointed out that American sub commanders in the
>Pacific used the same tactics - case closed).

Interestingly, according to Kings Regs, the defence of "I was just following
orders" was a legal and valid one until ... guess when ... early 1944!

According to recent (past couple of years) article by a Judge Advocate type
(don't remember whether he was US or UK Armed Forces) was that it was *still* a
valid defence, just under more restricted circumstances.

For example, as I recall from the article, he gave the example of a junior
soldier (he must have been UKAF) who was given an order by a trusted senior
officer or NCO ... the argument would be that the junior soldier would have so
much trust in said superior that he would not even be able to concieve that the
order was illegal.

Of course, I doubt they allowed *that* defence at Nuremburg, which was about
legal-seeming revenge more than "justice". (Not that most of the bastards didn't
deserve to hang, but why be legalistic about it if you can't make it stick
without making up and bending the "rules" as you go along).

Phil
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au | www.fandom.net/~PGD/index.htm
                 | mcgregor@locs.org (emergencies only!!)
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YES! StaRPlay:Armageddon and Dark Star are now available from www.hyperbooks.com
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU); Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 15:52:28 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Surveillance

Clif wrote:
> 

> What happened to the sort of thermal imaging shown in Patriot Games and in
> that recent Denzel Washington movie?
> 

Uhhh...Hollyweird is not a generally good place to get an idea of how
realistic some sensor mode would be. Bluntly: No way, no how, not
through walls. No matter how good of IR sensor technology you have,
putting an insulating wall between you and the sourse will degrade your
resolution really, _really_ fast. Think air scatters IR badly? Wait till
you try to image it through concrete and fiberglass. The equivalent of
trying to read a paperback through 6" of mud.

At very best, you will be able to resolve people's locations behind very
thin partitions.

All those glorious false color Hollywood SFX look great, but are
physically impossible.

Now..._outdoor_ IR scanning like that, perfectly doable; we do it today.
Most night vision systems also can use an IR illuminator. All the nifty
false color stuff requires is a reasonably fast signal processing
computer.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1362
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, January 5 1999      Volume 1998 : Number 1363



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Give the Media a Medal!
Suicidal SEALs
Thermal Imaging and IR
Re: Insurgencies
Re: Give the Media a Medal!
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: Thermal Imaging and IR
Re: Texas Revolts?
Re: Marava pic updates
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Texan Secession
re: Surveillance
re: Surveillance
Hot Button
Counterinsurgency (was re: Suicidal SEALs..)
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: Hot Button
Re: Marava pic updates
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:09:28 +1300
From: "Anson Betts" <AFBetts@salcom.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

>As I was walking home, today, I saw a fat cat slink past me quietly,
keeping
>a wary eye on me.  Later, a couple of big dogs ran up to the fence with a
>bunch of commotion and barked at me.
>
>This got me thinking.
>
>Do the Aslan and Vargr have certain strategies they prefer to employ when
>fighting?
>
>If they are anything like their non-upright counterparts, this is what I
>envision:
>
>ASLAN would use "hunt" in isolation, using stealth and silence, getting as
>close as possible and then pouncing with tremendous damage (maybe using a
>cloaking device?).  Or, they may just run down their "prey" with speed.
>Perhaps their ships would have spikes on them and they would just ram their
>enemies, not visible until almost too late?
>
>VARGR would "hunt" in packs and pick the weakest target and overwhelm it
>while the others ran away.  You could hear them "a mile away" and could
pick
>some of them off, but they'd get their "food" for the day.  Whether on the
>ground or in space, they would have some kind of "howl" mechanism (hailing
>frequency?) that would send chills down a human's spine.
>
>Whaddya think?
>
>--Trying to Make Some Good Posts,
>Clif
>
Hmmm, sounds good to me. I wonder what the Vargr battlecry would be, some
sort of howl?

Cheers,
 Anson.

Oook Oook

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 18:19:32 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Give the Media a Medal!

>> Now this makes more sense than anything I have heard, but it didn't save
the
>> people at Waco.
>
>I'd rather not get into the Waco issue.  But the Branch Davidians had all
kinds
>of problems, including a lack of substantial public support. I think there
can
>be
>little disagreement that the media there did at the very least slow down
the
>ATF/FBI.


So the media gets the credit for postponing the eventual death of all of
those at Waco who STAYED?  Is this what we are patting them on the back for?
Zero life is zero life, whether it is 2 weeks later, or not.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 18:28:49 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Suicidal SEALs

>>Sure, but my point is that one man with high enough level tech can end the
>>thing.
>>
>
>Bullshit. Total horseshit. The key to counter-insurgency is to realise that
>it is a political exersise. The military stuff is just a mostly-irrelevant
>sideshow.
>
>Politics is technology-neutral.

Uhhh, stay with me, now.  I wasn't talking about Vietnam at that point.
That was the Texas scenario.  One SEAL rucking a Nuke to an objective near
the opposition's HQ.  With a backpack nuke and a handheld detonator you
could hold the very people who want to shoot you hostage.

- --Clif


Uncle Sammy say:  "A few good men?  We need one crazy mofo!"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 18:41:34 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Thermal Imaging and IR

>Clif wrote:
>>
>
>> What happened to the sort of thermal imaging shown in Patriot Games and
in
>> that recent Denzel Washington movie?
>>
>
>Uhhh...Hollyweird is not a generally good place to get an idea of how
>realistic some sensor mode would be. Bluntly: No way, no how, not
>through walls. No matter how good of IR sensor technology you have,
>putting an insulating wall between you and the sourse will degrade your
>resolution really, _really_ fast. Think air scatters IR badly? Wait till
>you try to image it through concrete and fiberglass. The equivalent of
>trying to read a paperback through 6" of mud.

I was under the impression that thermal imaging was based on a different,
much-less-portable, technology.

IR usually makes hot/warm things look brighter than the surrounding area on
a sort of grayscale or monochrome screen, from what I have seen.

Thermal imaging, on the other hand, assigns a bright color to a certain
level of temperature, so that now, instead seeing an illuminated man, you
now see a man with a red shape in the center of his chest.  If it is cold
outside and he has been out there for a while, his fingers will probably be
a few shades of color different than the rest of him.
>
>At very best, you will be able to resolve people's locations behind very
>thin partitions.
>
>All those glorious false color Hollywood SFX look great, but are
>physically impossible.

...when there is a partition in between, you mean.
>
>Now..._outdoor_ IR scanning like that, perfectly doable; we do it today.
>Most night vision systems also can use an IR illuminator.

Yes, I know.  I used the goggles and bought my own used AN-PVS-2A Starlight
Scope(for my AR15A2 Delta HBAR) which appeared to have been sold to the
Israelis after it served in Vietnam.  It cost me $1700 dollars and did not
resemble thermal imaging, at all.  In fact, the newer generation Starlight
Technology in the late 80's, gave better contrast than my Vietnam era scope,
but it replaced the detail with a "snowy" kind of contrast.  I'm familiar
with how things got brighter when I shined my flashlight with IR filter at
something, but neither scope revealed HEAT, so I don't even know WHY you
brought up IR when I mentioned thermal imaging.

> All the nifty
>false color stuff requires is a reasonably fast signal processing
>computer.



- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:59:13 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Insurgencies

>What does the Imperium do when it has suppressed a rebellion ? Does it
>install and attempt to maintain a puppet government, or does it 'restore
>order' and then sail away, with a warning not to do it again (isnt it Dlan
>that has that nice sterile band around the equator ?).
>
>Ian Whitchurch
>

Well, that's what canon seems to imply...

1) the external Imperial borders in almost all canon material (with the
exception of the Vargr and Zhodani) are described as stable.

2) There are far, far more planets within the Imperium, than on the border.

3) Strike and Siege (which implies combat missions against planets) are
common Imperial Navy assignments (Battle - which implies combat against
other ships is relatively rare).  This would indicate that the Navy is used
far more often against targets that do not have naval defenses (because they
depend on the Imperium for those very defenses?) than those that do.

4) Police Action, Counter Insurgency, and Internal Security are common
assignments for the Imperial Army and Marines.  Counter Insurgency and
Internal Security definitely imply use within the borders, Police Action
(and Raid for that matter) are kind of non-specific - they could go either
way.

5) I can't remember where I read it, but I am pretty sure (sigh, that's
definitive, isn't it?) that Type 6 governments within the Imperium (unless
otherwise defined) are Navy imposed Governors.

Based on this, my Imperium is not the 'nice' place that seems to be the
dominent ideal on the TML...

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:04:33 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Give the Media a Medal!

This has zero to do with Traveller and is more appropo to an offlist
discussion thread.  The whole issue of religious/cult communes, Government
REO's, federal forces is a hot button that we would do well to avoid.

If you would like to discuss the Ine Givar and role IRIS/IBIS plays in
supporting them, I could be swayed...  :)

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 3:53 PM
Subject: Give the Media a Medal!


>
>
>>> Now this makes more sense than anything I have heard, but it didn't save
>the
>>> people at Waco.
>>
>>I'd rather not get into the Waco issue.  But the Branch Davidians had all
>kinds
>>of problems, including a lack of substantial public support. I think there
>can
>>be
>>little disagreement that the media there did at the very least slow down
>the
>>ATF/FBI.
>
>
>So the media gets the credit for postponing the eventual death of all of
>those at Waco who STAYED?  Is this what we are patting them on the back
for?
>Zero life is zero life, whether it is 2 weeks later, or not.
>
>--Clif
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 19:46:54 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

Clif said:

>If they are anything like their non-upright counterparts, this is what I
>envision:


Aslan are not related to cats. In fact, they only kind of look like cats. If
you use the old Keith pictures they don't even look all that _much_ like
lions, just sort of a passing resemblance.

Vargr, on the other hand, would probably react quite a bit like wolves or
dogs.

>VARGR would "hunt" in packs and pick the weakest target and overwhelm it
>while the others ran away.  You could hear them "a mile away" and could
pick
>some of them off, but they'd get their "food" for the day.  Whether on the
>ground or in space, they would have some kind of "howl" mechanism (hailing
>frequency?) that would send chills down a human's spine.


I would tend to disagree with this. Vargr are, after all, sentient. I think
that they would react mostly like humans in combat. The differences would be
subtle. I'm not sure though, I'd have to pay closer attention to dogs. :^)


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:46:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thermal Imaging and IR

Clif writes:
> 
> I was under the impression that thermal imaging was based on a different,
> much-less-portable, technology.

Sort of.  They're both IR sensors, though.  Best I know its kind of like the
difference between black and white and color -- IR sensors can only detect
brightness, thermographs can also detect peak emissions frequency
(temperature).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 17:05:19 -0800
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?

On Tue, 05 Jan 1999 07:18:05 -0500, steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
wrote:

>You can imagine what a few well-placed Texans behind enemy lines could do
>to the technologically dependent and sensitive C3I structure of a US government
>at odds with a secessionary state of over 20million, well-equipped, high
>technology possessing rednecks with attitude.

With attitude?  I'll say.  Do you all wear big red "S"es on your chests,
too?

Y'know, I just got done telling Joe Kemp (the original poster on this thread)
off-list that what probably set a lot of people off was not the details of
his timeline, but the focus on the GREAT STATE OF TEXAS*, of which he just
happens to be a citizen.  To be fair, what's in his timeline is fairly 
mild - mere hometown pride.

But then, you go ahead and provide a textbook example of the extreme
version.  Good job.

> Keep in mind that for every Texan in Texas,
>there are 2 that are elsewhere in the country.
>
>Bloo
>(A Texan in Yankeeland)

... and there are probably lots of Oregonians in other states, too.  What's
your point?

Guess what, Bloo?  A lot of non-Texans think of you much like the French
Quebecois:  loud, arrogant, annoying, and not nearly as special as they
like to think they are.

Yes, this is a flame.  Apologies to the rest of the list for this moment of
weakness.

- --------------
Kelly St.Clair
kellys@efn.org

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:07:25 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Marava pic updates

>Thanks to everyone on the TML that sent me information, I've been
able to
>finish the Marava Class (aka Puking Dog) ship.  Please check it out
at the
>address below.  As always, comments are truly welcome.  Thanks again
for
>everyone's help & comments.  Loren, I've a seperate message coming to
you
>re: the sourcebook.

Just a "me too" expression of "wow"

Personally, I think this series of pictures of yours sets the standard
for Traveller pictures.

The Foss stuff used in T4 didn't fit all that well, and some of the
old B&W stuff from things like "Fighting Ships" was frankly awful. I
can now point people at these ships and say "that's Traveller".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:40:51 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

>>VARGR would "hunt" in packs and pick the weakest target and overwhelm it
>>while the others ran away.  You could hear them "a mile away" and could
>pick
>>some of them off, but they'd get their "food" for the day.  Whether on the
>>ground or in space, they would have some kind of "howl" mechanism (hailing
>>frequency?) that would send chills down a human's spine.
>
>
>I would tend to disagree with this. Vargr are, after all, sentient. I think
>that they would react mostly like humans in combat. The differences would
be
>subtle. I'm not sure though, I'd have to pay closer attention to dogs. :^)
>


I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with.  Hunting in packs?  The
electronic howl?  The whole paragraph?

I can see where their long distance communication (howling) may have been
adapted to wireless use, especially if commo is not a regularly manned post
on a Vargr ship (missiles, after all, are the only proper way to reach out
and touch someone) - to answer a hail too quickly might be a submissive
behavior in Vargr.  In that case, an electronic equivalent to a 'howl' might
not be that far out of charactor.

Indeed, the aggressive posture that Vargr 'Corsairs' assume may have
originally been the long distance version of 'pack' behaviour (perhaps
something similar to 'counting coup' to establishing who is dominent), and
our apish reaction (holy sh*t, kill them!!) of reactive hostility may not
have been appropriate.

So far as infantry tactics, I don't see any reason that 'pack' mentality may
not be appropriate.  I envision three basic types, followers (beta Vargr
following the leaders) who cluster around leaders (Vargr with established
charisma) and rogues (alpha Vargr without established charisma and unwilling
to accept the established authority).  The 'rogues' will be the dangerous
ones, as they will be trying to establish themselves and will be
unpredictable.  Most are killed (if not by the enemy, than by the leader
they are trying to usurp.)

Hmmm...I'm going to have to re-read my Vargr modules - now I'm interested!
:)

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 20:40:50 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Texan Secession

This Texan Secession/American soldiers firing on American citizens
thread put me in mind of a civil war game I've played. No, not the civil
war in 1860's US - the civil war in 14th century England. Avalon Hill's
_Kingmaker_, a War of the Roses simulation.

In _Kingmaker_, you have various factions competing to be the power
behind whichever claimant attains the throne. However, just to keep
things interesting, the business of government goes on unabated while
this little armed argument flares up all over England. Peasant revolts,
raids by Scots highland clans, piracy, even an assault by the French
on the English outpost of Calais. These events can pop up and pull
away your most powerful lords at a moments notice. 

"Damn! We're assaulting London, where in Hades is Lord Mowbray?"
"Sire, Mowbray and his knights were called away at the last minute
to put down an uprising in Wales. His office as Marshal of England,
you know. He'll be back in a fortnight or so."

These external (and internal) matters were just as, or even more
important than the civil war that was going on - what matter which
royal claimant won the throne if the French invaded (again) and
took the whole country away from everyone?

How this relates to the Texans?

The Texans need to wait for (or engineer) some external, global crisis, one 
that will take up all the resources and attentions of the US Federal 
government. While the US is otherwise occupied, make a calm, reasoned 
withdrawal from the country. Do all possible during the confusion to 
legitimize the Republic of Texas as an independant country, and hope that 
the US is so desperate for international approval in the aftermath of the crisis
that they'll be leery of bringing Texas back to the fold by overt means.

ObTrav: Would there be a client state willing to touch off a frontier war,
hoping that the border readjustments afterwards (a la Fourth Frontier War)
would change the situation enough to gain their freedom?

Or (better yet for adventure seeds), an extremist faction from this
client state?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 20:51:06 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Surveillance

Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>Fourth, I wasn't talking about a wide-angle scan.  I was talking about,
>>"Roger, Whiskey Echo Fower Zeero, can you give me the SITREP on the enemy
>>over the ridge?"
>
>Certainly the consensus in the public literature is that we're a long way
from
>that level of (useful to tactical commanders) satellite recon; there are
>not that many imaging satellites, they have narrow fields of view, they
take
>time to point to new targets, and they only pass over given pieces of
territory
>periodically. Satellite recon is a theatre-level asset, not something for
>"what's over that ridge".

That's not what I read about a big wargame "I can't remember where" that
took place not more than 2 years ago.  They even had Grid coordinates.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
My brother is a commo tech in the US Army. His team in a wargame
had a satellite link - they ID'ed an "enemy" Major from a satellite-based
real time video, and were thus able to direct a light unit to his location
and capture him. Except for a few hairy minutes when the "enemy"
commo techs managed to hack into their wireless wide-area-network,
my brother's team was never without real-time unit locations (and usually
accurate unit identifications) of all "enemy" assets.

However, this wargame was specifically devised to test what was possible
for tactical use of satellite data - the investment of gear, assets and
trained personell was much higher than usual to allow these tricks to
work properly. There's no telling how long it will be before such a wealth
of information becomes standard operating procedure for our military.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 20:59:40 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Surveillance

Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
Clif wrote:
> 

> What happened to the sort of thermal imaging shown in Patriot Games and in
> that recent Denzel Washington movie?
> 

Uhhh...Hollyweird is not a generally good place to get an idea of how
realistic some sensor mode would be. Bluntly: No way, no how, not
through walls. No matter how good of IR sensor technology you have,
<snip>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I read an interview with a military consultant for an action movie...
_Executive Decision_? It involved an anti-terrorist team boarding a
hijacked plane in mid-air, to prevent the terrorists from blowing up
a cargo of deadly nerve gas and sterilizing the US East Coast.

The military consultant was asked, "Can our special forces teams
actually board a plane like that?"

His answer: "We have no problem with the bad guys thinking we can."

<G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:09:21 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Hot Button

The whole issue of religious/cult communes, Government
>REO's, federal forces is a hot button that we would do well to avoid.

So you ADMIT that it is a hot button that we would do well to avoid?
>
And why would that be?  I thought we had freedom of speech, or am I wrong in
concluding that you seem to be saying it means REAL trouble, and not just
ascii flames?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:12:17 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Counterinsurgency (was re: Suicidal SEALs..)

Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Uhhh, stay with me, now.  I wasn't talking about Vietnam at that point.
That was the Texas scenario.  One SEAL rucking a Nuke to an objective near
the opposition's HQ.  With a backpack nuke and a handheld detonator you
could hold the very people who want to shoot you hostage.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You're making some assumptions here. You're assuming the opposition
will have something remotely resembling a central HQ. 

You're assuming the US wants to use weapons of mass destruction
on their own soil - ok, the Republic of Texas may call it RoT soil,
but Uncle Sammy still thinks of it as his own. Not to mention the PR
hit when you pop a nuke on downtown Corpus Christi. (Though I could
see the looney who came up with the backpack nuke plan having a
plan to blame it on the insurgents.)

You're assuming the RoT sepratists have enough assets in any one place
to make a nuke (even a "backpack nuke") an appropriate weapon to use.
The very existance of such weapons makes dispersal necessary, if you
realize your opponent has the will to use them.

(For example: a book _The Ayes of Texas_ by Daniel Da Cruz, the
Soviet Union has tricked the US into an alliance, pretty much on the
USSR's terms. Texas secedes rather than allow a Soviet fleet to make
a "friendship visit" to a Texan seaport. Soviets say they are coming in
anyway. Several hundred thousand Texan volunteer civilian militia are wiped 
out in minutes during the first battle of the war, as they didn't realize the 
Soviets had nerve gas and - more importantly - the will to use it. Pretty far 
fetched, but what the hey.)

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:28:04 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

>I would tend to disagree with this. Vargr are, after all, sentient. I think
>that they would react mostly like humans in combat. The differences would
be
>subtle. I'm not sure though, I'd have to pay closer attention to dogs. :^)
>
Then permit me to educate you on how sentient beings who were(are?) the most
highly trained infantry in the world in the late 80's whooped up on their
foes.

I am speaking of the OPFOR at Ft. Chaffee, Arkansas, a.k.a., the Joint
Readiness Training Center.  In saying they are the most highly trained, etc.
I only quote U.S. Army literature, understanding that there is some bias
there, but let me describe these guys...

Once night fell, these 11 Bravo's and 19 Delta's(grunts and scouts) spent
their "workday" probing perimeters and working to wreak simulated death and
destruction.  They did this EVERY workday, then during the day they went to
see their girlfriends in town.  I know because I had the luxury of "rapping"
with two of them while I had them in my custody.  A sergeant scolded me for
talking to them, but I wasn't giving anything up(except a mock ignorance).
Besides, frickin' S-2 never even interrogated them.  Eventually, they died
of their simulated wounds which we never made it a priority to bind.

Literally like ghosts that disappeared as soon as they got into the
treeline, they talked to each other with bird noises.  Their reputation
preceded then, so that after a week of not hearing from our Special Ops guys
who jumped in, we were thoroughly spooked.  (even knowing it was only a
game)

Before they attacked they howled like coyotes.  Some of them sounded sickly.
It gave a person goosebumps when you were smart enough to realize that was
who it was.  (Some dummies thought it was coyotes.)  After they attacked and
had became one with nature, once again, they howled again, marking their
victory and departure.

That is how sentient beings waged war, apparently.  Why should the dog-like
Vargr be deprived of the same?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 18:41:16 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Hot Button

i'll reply to this offline - where it deserves to be.

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 6:24 PM
Subject: Hot Button


>
>The whole issue of religious/cult communes, Government
>>REO's, federal forces is a hot button that we would do well to avoid.
>
>So you ADMIT that it is a hot button that we would do well to avoid?
>>
>And why would that be?  I thought we had freedom of speech, or am I wrong
in
>concluding that you seem to be saying it means REAL trouble, and not just
>ascii flames?
>
>--Clif
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:32:12 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Marava pic updates

>The Foss stuff used in T4 didn't fit all that well, and some of the
>old B&W stuff from things like "Fighting Ships" was frankly awful. I
>can now point people at these ships and say "that's Traveller".


Copy that!  (I think I will!)

>The Foss stuff used in T4 didn't fit all that well, and some of the
>old B&W stuff from things like "Fighting Ships" was frankly awful. I
>can now point people at these ships and say "that's Traveller".

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:36:08 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

Someone could publish a best-seller called, "The Secret Life of Vargr", with
a vargr-style centerfold.  ;)

- --Clif
>
>Hmmm...I'm going to have to re-read my Vargr modules - now I'm interested!
>:)
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1363
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, January 6 1999     Volume 1998 : Number 1364



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Surveillance
Re: Counterinsurgency (was re: Suicidal SEALs..)
Re: real-world railguns
Re: Insurgencies
Re: Surveillance
Re: Thermal Imaging and IR
Huh?
Re: Texan Secession
SJG Scouts writer
Re: Marava pic updates
Re: Thermal Imaging and IR
Online RPG Sources
Re: Texas revolts
Simulations (was re: Texan Secession)
style
Re: SJG
Re: SJG
Re: style
Re:Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: Online RPG Sources
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
re: Hot Button
Re: EW in Traveller
Re: Online RPG Sources
Re: Texas revolts

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:41:05 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Surveillance

Thanks, Walt.  I knew I wasn't talking out of my touchas on this one.

Okay, so it is "not yet" but obviously "around the corner."

- --Clif
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>My brother is a commo tech in the US Army. His team in a wargame
>had a satellite link - they ID'ed an "enemy" Major from a satellite-based
>real time video, 

>There's no telling how long it will be before such a wealth
>of information becomes standard operating procedure for our military.
>
>Walt Smith
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:45:53 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Counterinsurgency (was re: Suicidal SEALs..)

>they didn't realize the
>Soviets had nerve gas and - more importantly - the will to use it.

Can you say, "Duh!"  No one said Texan militiamen were all that smart.  :)
Just ribbin' ya!

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:54:30 -0500
From: "Eric Freitas" <ericfreitas@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: real-world railguns

From: Bruce Alan Macintosh <bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu>

>>>[railguns need lots of power]
>>Couldn't we mount a thousand square meters of 24% efficient solar panels
>
>Well, such a big array would be bulky and vulnerable (hard to point) - and
>still pretty heavy; probably a couple of tons, including the hardware
needed
>to fold and unfold it. The solar arrays on the International Space Station
>are going to take several whole shuttle flights to deploy, and will only
generate
>tens of kilowatts.


    Why doesn't NASA or some other government body, say the dept. of Energy
Scale up the Russian Topaz reactor to power the station?  For that matter
you could put up ten of the existing model to power that orbital railgun.

    The use of on orbit reactors like the Topaz would not only increase
reliability
of orbital power systems, but the reactor wouldn't be as susceptible to
damage
from botched docking maneuvers.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 18:55:34 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Insurgencies

>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Insurgencies
...
>Stalinists. Half number one is the Kurds. Turkey, a US ally, has a Kurd
>Problem, and avoiding a viable Kurdish state in ex-Iraq is an absolute key
>of Turkish foriegn policy. 

  This actually came up in a conversation today; the Turkish military has
a Really Good grasp on _why_ it doesn't want independent Kurds, anywhere.
Doesn't mean that their goals are rational, but that's not very relevant.

...
>What does the Imperium do when it has suppressed a rebellion ? Does it
>install and attempt to maintain a puppet government, or does it 'restore
>order' and then sail away, with a warning not to do it again (isnt it Dlan
>that has that nice sterile band around the equator ?).

  Whatever the policy-makers on the spot decide - this is Traveller after all :)
I actually like the outline in Tancred; the 3I will accept that the new regime
is the same as the old regime even if it's aware of just how the faction change
came about. Loyalty matters, requiring anything much more than that would take
a great deal of intervention to maintain in the long term, which is not how
the Third Imperium seems to be inclined.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 18:55:26 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Surveillance

>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>Subject: Re: Surveillance
...
>I would be surprised if they don't have chemical sensors which can track by
>smell, however, though I don't immediately recall sources for such a device
>existing.

  Chemical mine sniffers in Striker, IIRC?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 19:13:45 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Thermal Imaging and IR

>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Thermal Imaging and IR
...
>with how things got brighter when I shined my flashlight with IR filter at
>something, but neither scope revealed HEAT, so I don't even know WHY you
>brought up IR when I mentioned thermal imaging.

  Maybe I'm wrong here, but aren't both technologies detecting heat?

  Light-intensifiers, OTOH...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 19:13:58 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Huh?

>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Suicidal SEALs
...
>Uhhh, stay with me, now.  I wasn't talking about Vietnam at that point.
>That was the Texas scenario.  One SEAL rucking a Nuke to an objective near
>the opposition's HQ.  With a backpack nuke and a handheld detonator you
>could hold the very people who want to shoot you hostage.

  Is it possible for anyone with any grasp of real-world politics to
talk about detonating nuclear weapons on their own national soil as
part of a peacetime police operation?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 11:10:56 +0800
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Texan Secession

I enjoyed your post but :)

>Avalon Hill's
>_Kingmaker_, a War of the Roses simulation.
>
A simulation  Ha ha ha ha heh he hehe Choke choke giggle giggle

I suppose you didn't meant it but it still made my day!

cheers

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:20:36 EST
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: SJG Scouts writer

	Would the person working on Scouts please contact me.

Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 19:21:04 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Marava pic updates

In spite of some of the hackles that you've raised with others Clif, I
gotta' say "ROFL"!  Thanks again for your comments, on list and off.

Best Regards,
Jesse DeGraff


- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: Marava pic updates


>
>
>>The Foss stuff used in T4 didn't fit all that well, and some of the
>>old B&W stuff from things like "Fighting Ships" was frankly awful. I
>>can now point people at these ships and say "that's Traveller".
>
>
>Copy that!  (I think I will!)
>
>>The Foss stuff used in T4 didn't fit all that well, and some of the
>>old B&W stuff from things like "Fighting Ships" was frankly awful. I
>>can now point people at these ships and say "that's Traveller".
>
>--Clif
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 19:26:51 -0800
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <Vanquer@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Thermal Imaging and IR

>>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>>Subject: Thermal Imaging and IR
>>with how things got brighter when I shined my flashlight with IR filter at
>>something, but neither scope revealed HEAT, so I don't even know WHY you
>>brought up IR when I mentioned thermal imaging.


Steven Hudson wrote:
>  Maybe I'm wrong here, but aren't both technologies detecting heat?
>  Light-intensifiers, OTOH...

    My understanding was that Thermal Imagery detected Thermal Radiation,
while Infra-red detected variations in actual temperature... Of course I
have
no idea where I got this, so I don't have a way to check my "facts".

Later.


Jesse.
Vanquer@EMAIL.MSN.COM
http://www.gryffon.com/leta
for all your role-playing needs.
ICQ. 8004143

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:31:47 -0600
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Online RPG Sources

Has anyone had luck with any online RPG stores?  My local shop isn't too 
quick on getting things to me in a timely fashion, and the next closest is over 
1/2 hour drive (through the Wisconsin winters ...).

Thanks in advance
 -- James Pearson
"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles 
for players to overcome as they go about seeking 
their goals, not to constantly make trouble for them.
This is a very subtle distinction ..."

The Traveller Book, p. 12

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4089

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 19:37:35 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Texas revolts

>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Re: Texas revolts
...
>Isn't it great to be able to serve in the military and become a free citizen
>civilian who was only sufficiently trained to be able to have 10 rounds in
>his magazine, though in the service he was responsible enough to have 30?

  Why not? - just what do you need more than ten rounds (or semi-auto 
weapons for that matter) _for_?

  You guys in Texas hunt Vorpal Bunnies or something?

  No doubt the Zho's would've won the 5FW if the populace of Garda-Vilis
hadn't been liberally equipped with assaut rifles w/30-round clips.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:44:57 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Simulations (was re: Texan Secession)

Colin Hutchinson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I enjoyed your post but :)

>Avalon Hill's
>_Kingmaker_, a War of the Roses simulation.
>
A simulation  Ha ha ha ha heh he hehe Choke choke giggle giggle

I suppose you didn't meant it but it still made my day!

cheers
>>>>>>>>>>>
I meant every word.

"Simulation" is a very general term. Chess is a simulation (albeit a
highly stylized and abstracted one) of ancient mass combat. Modern
flight simulators can be highly realistic and accurate simulations of
true-to-life aircraft performance.

Avalon Hill's _Kingmaker_ is a simulation designed to highlight the
difficulties of running a civil war while you still have responsibilities
to the business of the kingdom.  It's not intended to be realistic down
to the logistics of marching your troops across England.

Any maker of wargames (or computer games) will tell you that you
have to prioritize what you are simulating. Does your new Traveller
ship combat simulator intend to highlight logistical problems of fleets,
or detection problems of single picket ships? What you do not directly
simulate must be abstracted. A fleet combat game will tell you what
your picket ships detected, but may not have the level of detail that
would allow you to pull patrol tricks and get a better scan of the
opposing force. A single-ship combat game would let you try the sneaky
tricks, and have rules for them, but wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) have
you spend time making resupply decisions for every ship in the sector.

_Kingmaker_ happened to focus it's simulation on political maneuvering
and the possible effects of outside forces on the war, rather than placing
the detail priority on combat, logistics, or movement. It's not a detailed 
medieval combat simulator, nor was it intended to be.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:49:09 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: style

	With the talk about the possible T5,  I just thought I'd say that strictly
for style,  my favorite rulebook of all time was The Traveller Book.   It was
classy, complete and free of errors, with a nice layout and look to it. I
think that if the core of T5 came out looking like The Traveller Book, it
would be a winner.   (it was also nice to have a completely playable rules
system in 1 single book--there was gobs of other stuff you could use, but you
also could say to someone, buy this book and you can play Traveller--period).

   Dave  Stodgicus Nelson 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 22:59:12 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: SJG

At 07:41 6-1-99 +1100, Hyphen wrote:
>Want to receive the Traveller News Service by e-mail?
>Send mail to majordomo@pyramid.sjgames.com with the message "subscribe
traveller"!

I've been subscribed for a while.  It was working fine, but as noted in
another thread, for some reason I didn't receive the last couple TNS
articles that were posted to the GT web page.


James

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 23:20:33 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: SJG

- ----------
> From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: SJG
> Date: Tuesday, 05 January, 1999 10:59 PM
> 
> At 07:41 6-1-99 +1100, Hyphen wrote:
> >Want to receive the Traveller News Service by e-mail?
> >Send mail to majordomo@pyramid.sjgames.com with the message "subscribe
> traveller"!
> 
> I've been subscribed for a while.  It was working fine, but as noted in
> another thread, for some reason I didn't receive the last couple TNS
> articles that were posted to the GT web page.

There may be some residual problems from the hacker (cracker, whatever) who
had a go at the Pyramid computer that also held the TNS mailing list.  They
did send out e-mails encouraging people to resub.  However, I'm not sure
the resubscription process worked properly; I never got the confirming
e-mail and haven't gotten those new TNS entries either.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 23:20:27 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: style

AveNelson said:

> With the talk about the possible T5,  I just thought I'd say that strictly
>for style,  my favorite rulebook of all time was The Traveller Book.   It
was
>classy, complete and free of errors, with a nice layout and look to it. I
>think that if the core of T5 came out looking like The Traveller Book, it
>would be a winner.   (it was also nice to have a completely playable rules
>system in 1 single book--there was gobs of other stuff you could use, but
you
>also could say to someone, buy this book and you can play
Traveller--period).


I disagree to a large extent. "The Traveller Book" was excellent for its
time. However, especially recently, the bar has been raised for the look and
feel of RPGs lately.

RPGs must be art heavy, and must be art heavy with, at the very least,
decent art. Even SJG has picked up on this recently, which is a really good
thing to some, and a really bad thing to others.

There's a reason, and it's partially technological and partially
psychological. Back when Traveller first came out, "art sparse" was just
part of the times. GDW was a wargame publisher, and their rules showed it.
The layout was good, information was easy to find, however, art was sparse.
This wasn't a bad thing by any means, especially since Traveller was sold
through hobby shops... Wargamers were the first market for Traveller (and
other RPGs) and they expected an RPG to be light on art and heavy on rules.
Technologically, it was relatively difficult to do art-heavy layouts. That
was what the industry dealt with.

All that changed in the early 90s, and it's never been the same since, nor
will it ever be the same. First of all, it's important to note that gaming
outlets have changed considerably. I'm not sure about other areas of the
world, but here on the East Coast in the U.S., there are very few dedicated
hobby shops. Wargaming has been dead for years (at least as a popular
hobby). Comic book stores are where the sales are at these days. If there's
one thing I know about comic book fans is that they like art... Whether it's
traditional comic books, or anime and manga they like their rulebooks
artwork heavy. TSR and White Wolf are the leaders in sales and take a look
at _any_ of their books. In a couple of cases, these companies aren't even
using black and white art anymore!

Whether using the new terrain of the RPG industry is good or bad is purely
up to the individual reader. It's a matter of necessity these days, not just
an extra perk.

There are a number of things in Trav that are hard to sell to younger
players too, but I won't get too into detail, since I've gone there one too
many times on this list. Suffice to say that winning over new players _will_
make older players angry in one way or another.

Keep in mind it's not always quality or completeness that counts though.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 23:28:49 EST
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re:Vargr & Aslan Tactics

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> asks:

>As I was walking home, today, I saw a fat cat slink past me quietly, keeping
>a wary eye on me.  Later, a couple of big dogs ran up to the fence with a
>bunch of commotion and barked at me.
>
>This got me thinking.
>
>Do the Aslan and Vargr have certain strategies they prefer to employ when
>fighting?
>
>If they are anything like their non-upright counterparts, this is what I
>envision:
>
>ASLAN would use "hunt" in isolation, using stealth and silence, getting as
>close as possible and then pouncing with tremendous damage (maybe using a
>cloaking device?).  Or, they may just run down their "prey" with speed.
>Perhaps their ships would have spikes on them and they would just ram their
>enemies, not visible until almost too late?
>
>VARGR would "hunt" in packs and pick the weakest target and overwhelm it
>while the others ran away.  You could hear them "a mile away" and could pick
>some of them off, but they'd get their "food" for the day.  Whether on the
>ground or in space, they would have some kind of "howl" mechanism (hailing
>frequency?) that would send chills down a human's spine.
>
>Whaddya think?
>
>- --Trying to Make Some Good Posts,
>Clif

And doing a reasonably good job of it...

 While you might find some Vargr going to great technological effort to
emulate their ancestors (Terran canines, for those of you just joining the
Traveller scene), much of what you describe was bred out of them during their
uplift by the Ancients. It is a truism of sentience that much of the instinct
that kept your non-sentient ancestors alive to develop into you is utterly
replaced by the sentience they developed. The result is that (in the case of
the Vargr) primitive hunters will re-develop the pack hunting techniques, but
only as learned behavior, not as instinct. More advanced Vargr may consciously
develop "The Pack" as a military tactic involving selective targetting and
concentration of fire. The howl is probably the hallmark of a few units of
nutcases the Leaders send in first...

 In the case of the Aslan, however, the only ones who use the solitary hunt as
a real-life tactic are the Assassins. Others use it for actually hunting and
for relaxation, but again the instincts surrounding hunting have been wiped
out by sentience and technological development. Past material shows that the
closest Terran equivalent to the Aslan are the Shogunate-Era Samurai of Japan:
In politics and in war, you maneuver your opponent to a place where you can
either publicly destroy him, or have him publicly destroy himself. Stealth is
a tool for making maneuvers, not for the actual destruction...

 Apologies for being so obtuse. It just came out that way...

GypsyComet
http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/index.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 23:30:12 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

Douglas Glatz said:

>I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with.  Hunting in packs?  The
>electronic howl?  The whole paragraph?


The easy space opera feel of turning the Vargr into nothing more than...
well, dogs.

When I was reading excerpts from that book by Desmond Morris a little while
ago I was fascinated by how _subtley_ our behavior was related to that of
our ancestors. My apologies that I can't remember the name of the book, it's
quite popular though.

Anyhow, that's what I was trying to get at. We're not quite the apes we used
to be, and I don't think that the Vargr are quite the canines that _they_
used to be. At least not precisely the dogs they used to be.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:40:49 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Online RPG Sources

Has anyone had luck with any online RPG stores?  My local shop isn't too
quick on getting things to me in a timely fashion, and the next closest is
over
1/2 hour drive (through the Wisconsin winters ...).



try
www.titan-games.com

Really nice folks and they work fast with good prices

tv

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 23:45:12 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

Clif said:

>That is how sentient beings waged war, apparently.  Why should the dog-like
>Vargr be deprived of the same?


Maybe because on a high TL battlefield such behavior would be (at the very
least) contrary to survival?

Remember, we're not simply talking about a modern day battlefield here. Your
example is excellent, as long as audio sensors are relegated to the old Mk.
I Ear or something similiar.

I'm not saying that your idea's _bad_, I'm just saying Vargr wouldn't be
terribly effective on the battlefield in such a case. Further, responses to
a combat situation can be entirely different. In one case, a group of
corner-yahoos in front of a bar might group together and beat someone to a
pulp. On the other hand, a trained special forces sniper might off a guard
at a distance and move on to another location before a search party could be
organized to track him down.

Two different approaches to taking someone down. Of course, there are
thousands and thousands more. Forcing Vargr down a narrow path in a military
situation based on the behavior of their non-sentient ancestors makes them
pretty much useless on a battlefield, and not the threat to the Imperium
that they have been portrayed.

For example, a personal fight between two humans might be resolved in a
fashion much like our ancestors, alot of "chest beating" and yelling in an
attempt to drive off the opponent. However, the battlefields of Europe in
WWII were very different situations.

Some elements might be similar, but I doubt that the Vargr would act just as
dogs do.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 20:52:52 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Hot Button

>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Hot Button
>
>The whole issue of religious/cult communes, Government
>>REO's, federal forces is a hot button that we would do well to avoid.
>
>So you ADMIT that it is a hot button that we would do well to avoid?
>>
>And why would that be?  I thought we had freedom of speech, or am I wrong in
>concluding that you seem to be saying it means REAL trouble, and not just
>ascii flames?

  Assuming that you're not genuinely paranoid, it might be worth considering
that he's suggesting that this is not the appropriate place to discuss the
politics or world-views involved (just as we're not discussing AD&D either).

  If he's correct, then failing to do so is to state that your "freedom of
speech" _really_ means the "right" to intrude on others privacy; I understand
that there are forums for conspiracy theories and alternative politics.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 01:28:31 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: EW in Traveller

At 12:16 AM 05/01/99 PST, you wrote:
>To quote Cheif Enginner Scott: "Y'kanna change the laws of physics"
>

       Which he did routinely...  usually after making that declaration. =)

        [calculations snipped]

>You can easily get that sort of Isp with an ion drive. But you can't
>get the required *thrust*. So you'd need at least a gas core nuclear
>rocket to achieve that 100g 16 minute performance. 
>
>And even at TL15 getting something like that into a missile will be
>difficult. 
>

        What about anti-matter/ matter reaction drives?  Hellava thermal/
gamma plume, I'd hazzard ('scuse pun).  I'm awful at math, so I'm not even
gonna hack at the numbers.

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 18:35:34 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Online RPG Sources

>Has anyone had luck with any online RPG stores?  My local shop isn't
too
>quick on getting things to me in a timely fashion, and the next
closest is over
>1/2 hour drive (through the Wisconsin winters ...).

In general , I don't bother with "RPG" stores. Amazon.com usually have
what ever you want and cheaper than the publisher too.

Otherwise, for new and special items,  I go straight to the
publishers.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 01:45:40 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Texas revolts

At 03:41 PM 05/01/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>     Oh ya, the new legal limit is 10 rounds, not 15...
>>
>Isn't it great to be able to serve in the military and become a free citizen
>civilian who was only sufficiently trained to be able to have 10 rounds in
>his magazine, though in the service he was responsible enough to have 30?
>
>--Clif
>
        Law level, Cliff!  If the soldier gets 30, and the civvie gets 10,
it means that in a textbook engagement, it takes one soldier to do the
damage of 3 civvies.  Meaning the civvies go home sooner than the soldier
does. =)
        In the RealWorld(tm) YMMV =)

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1364
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, January 6 1999     Volume 1998 : Number 1365



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4
Re: real-world railguns
Re: Terran First Contact Timeline (long) >
Re : My Trading Spreadsheet - Patch
Re: style
Re: Texas Revolts?
Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions
Re: Insurgencies
Re: Pluto's Secret
Re: Calendars
Re: Thermal Imaging and IR
Re: Insurgencies
Re: Surveillance
Request to Change Subject Lines Re: Texas Revolts
Re: Hot Button
Re: Give the Media a Medal!
[OT] Re: Texas Revolts?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:24:02 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4

>>I personaly like much of the rules, in spirit if not always the exact
>>mechanics. They are much closer to the CT/MT rules that TNE. Of course
>>TNE used the same engine as 2300 so you might want to look fro a copy of
>>those rules
>
>I thought it was Twilight: 2000's rules set. My copy of 2300 looks nothing
>like TNE.

Twilight 2000 V2.2 was Twilight 2000 V2.0 modified to be compatible
with TNE.

So TNE definitely did _not_ come from Twilight 2000

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:48:39 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: real-world railguns

>>The rail guns we have could easily make a mess of the USS Iowa
>(slight exageration, as all that really exists are lab prototypes)

They are prototypes yes, but they could still easily smash up such a
ship if given a chance.

True, getting them in position and keeping them protected whie they're
smashing it up would be a similar problem to doing it with torpedoes
boats .
:-)

In fact I suspect this may be their first real combat mount, a
submarine or similar sized naval vessel has easily enough power to
drive one of these things.

>>let alone the weak little spaceships we're running around in.

>More true. However, they also weight many tonnes and require
>megawatts of power; we couldn't launch a railgun equipped
>weapons platform into orbit, and even if we did, we couldn't power
it.

They don't have to be so massive.

The ones I was talking about include one that is about 1.5m long and
can be carried by a single technicican. (minus power supply, of
course)

Probably the most "operational" one is 6m long, designed to fit into a
main battle tank turret.
The power supply ( an MHD ) is mounted on  two seperate tracked
vehicles, one for the MHD, the other a bank of capacitors.

Yes,  the whole system weighs several tonnes, but the turret itself is
lighter than a normal MBT turret,  (no need for the heavy breech block
of a conventional gun)and the power requirement could be provided by
generators that have already been orbited.  Rail-guns need much less
power than destructive lasers, which have also been seriously proposed
as orbital weapons.

The major problem (other than political ramifications) of having an
operatinal rail-gun in orbit would be in keeping it supplied with ammo
if it ever had to fire repeatedly in anger, and protecting it from
opposing rail guns.

Most planning involves mounting such things deep in the Moon , or in
re-positioned asteroids, with built-in refineries to produce ammo.





A single


Bruce
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:04:55 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Terran First Contact Timeline (long) >

>Another waste of good money, much like the vandal-like destruction of the
>TSR2 :-(

Agree completely, that was one nice plane.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 06:32:30 -0000
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>
Subject: Re : My Trading Spreadsheet - Patch

Fellow Travellers,

Sorry to waste bandwidth, but I have a message to all people who have a copy
of my Excel Trading Spreadsheet.

I have been informed of an error, in determining the order of trade characteristics for
worlds. To remedy this, if you know Excel, just change the contents of the two cells
on the 'Workings' sheet to read as follows...(just copy and paste the contents)

Cell    Contents (include the equals sign)

C45
=CONCATENATE(J29,J43,J41,J30,J42,J32,J38,J39,J36,J31,J33,J34,J35,J37,J40)
C71
=CONCATENATE(J55,J69,J67,J56,J68,J58,J64,J65,J62,J57,J59,J60,J61,J63,J66)

If anyone needs further assistance, then please contact me off list, and I'll help you
in any way I can. These files will be updated on my web-page in the very near future,
please bear with me. I also hope to have an big update within a month or so.

Thanks

Derrick

<back to your usual Traveller service...>

Derrick Jones
St Helens
Lancashire UK

mailto:dojones@whitestar.u-net.com
http://www.whitestar.u-net.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 23:58:19 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: style

>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
>Subject: Re: style
...
>RPGs must be art heavy, and must be art heavy with, at the very least,
>decent art. Even SJG has picked up on this recently, which is a really good
>thing to some, and a really bad thing to others.

 (much good analysis snipped)

  In other words, we have to learn to love artwork over (text) content?  :(

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:33:11 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Texas Revolts?

> From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
> Ob Trav.  In the Spinward Marches region, pick a world in the Federation or
> even Arden itself.. a world that has been courted by the Zhos and Imperials.
> Toss in a seperatist movement on a world and and toss in the Darrians or
> Swords Worlders to be the French.  Just because no guerilla wars have
been
> recorded doesn't mean they haven't happened...  Now connect all teh dots.
: ) 

Or just take Garda-Vilis/Tanoose.  Vilis are the French.  Maybe the Sword
Worlds would be the Chinese.  A collaborator government would be the RVN. 
The Imperium would be the US. 

Efate is another option.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 00:29:00 +0100
From: Jesus <324064@cienz.unizar.es>
Subject: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions

Some questions:

My friends and me we have decided to begin a new campaign of Traveller,
and we'll use the GURPS System, some of the members of the group are
more comfortable with this system. The Campaign is in Spinward marches,
more precisely in the subsectors of Querion, Darrian, Vilis, and Sword
Worlds. I bought 'Behind the Claw (BH)' and when I began to compare with
the data of CT and MT, I found differences in population and government
codes, some can be explained, but others are too dissimilar.
For example, Darrian (0627) has in BH a Population of 2100000 when in CT
and MT the Pop code is 9 (~2billion). I suppose that this is an errata,
nobody has reported a minor Maghiz or a disaster of similar
characteristics, but I am finding too much differences.

Are they changes in the Classic Canon or simply a lot of errata?
If they are errata, anybody has the list of errata of BH?
There is any reason to not include the info about the number of Gas
Giants and planetoid belts?

Another Questions,
Anybody has converted the stats of the VRF Gauss for the GURPS system?

What do you think of the problems to trade between Darrian, Sword
Worlds, and Imperial Frontiers? My players will play with a FarTrader
with this idea.

In GURPS Traveller, What happens with the costs of Life support
systems?, Are they free now?

Thanks in advance,
- --
- -Jesus

     The Truth may be out there,
     but lies are inside your head.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:15:09 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Insurgencies

From: Ian or Katts 
> What does the Imperium do when it has suppressed a rebellion ? Does it
> install and attempt to maintain a puppet government, or does it 'restore
> order' and then sail away, with a warning not to do it again (isnt it Dlan
> that has that nice sterile band around the equator ?).

Actually, it's Ilelish.  It's got an E class port now, too.  The whole
thing was very Roman "making a desert and calling it peace".

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:32:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Pluto's Secret

In mail you write:

>> I think it's probably the consensus that there's an Ancients site on Pluto.
>> Certainly that seems the most popular...  Something like Antiquity, i
>>suppose?
>
> I have heard this theory before and don't buy it. If there was an Ancient
> base on Pluto during the IW timeframe, how is it that the Ancients could be
> such a mystery for thousands of years? At the rate Ancient bases appear in
> some campaigns, I'm amazed the Vilani didn't have everything figured out
> while Earth was in the iron age.
>
> Moreover, I'm tired of every mystery and anomaly being explained away by
> the Ancients. I think there was a letter in the MegaTraveller Journal
> saying the same thing. There are thousands of parsecs of space over
> hundreds of thousands of years in the Imperium, hasn't anything but the
> Ancients happened in all that?

That's why I *much* prefer Andre Norton's "Forerunners". It's a
*generic* term for any civilation that disappeared before the oldest
surviving civilization. And there are *hudreds* of more or less "known"
Forerunner cultures, and it's thought that there are likely 10s or even
hundreds of thousands of such cultures. 

> To add something constructive to the discussion, here is the reason Pluto
> is red-zoned IMTU:
>
> Even before interstellar contact Terran astronomers were puzzled by Pluto.
> Its mass, albedo, and orbital characteristics didn't match accepted
> theories. Early space probes showed a totally smooth, featureless sphere
> and spectral analysis of the entire planet was that of a black body. Sensor
> readings showed a homogenious interior. Probes landing on Pluto's surface
> disappeared completely, like into an ocean, leaving ripples on the surface
> but no trace of the probe beneath.
>
> The planet was declared restricted and landings prohibited, but the
> Interstellar Wars halted further examination. During the Rule of Man many
> theories about Pluto were proposed, including that it was an Ancient
> artifact, a vast ball of molecular acid, or some kind of wormhole. AAB
> records showed that the Vilani, too, had encountered similar planets but
> considered them an uninteresting kind of space hazard. Experiments
> conducted from an orbiting research platform demonstrated that Pluto
> conserved the mass, momentum, and charge of items hitting it. High-speed
> impacts at shallow angles would spray particles of ices, oxides, and
> hydrides, which had properties quite different from the planet as a whole.
>
> Research was abandoned during the Long Night, but with the rise of
> interstellar exploration Pluto's secret was investigated again. Nuclear
> scanning and advanced computer modelling showed the planet was a kind of
> atomic slurry composed of many atoms all at a state of maximum entrophy; it
> was a completely new form of matter.
>
> Since material scattered from the surface did not have the same effect as
> the planet as a whole it the assumption was that Pluto contained some kind
> of super-catalyst, something which triggered rapid chemical reactions in
> anything it came into contact with. Experiments with reactive and inert
> materials bore this theory out. It was hypothesised that at some time in
> the past a particle of this super-catalyst hit Pluto and gradually
> converted the entire planet.
>
> The Solomani Confederation built an enormous industrial station in Pluto's
> orbit during the early 100s to use the planet for chemical synthesis. The
> station was plagued with accidents and eventually closed down in the late
> 400s when damper-mediated chemical synthesis proved cheaper and safer. The
> owners dismantled the station and the Confederation red-zoned Pluto to
> prevent any future accidents. It remains an interesting space phenomenon
> into the 1100s.
>
> I realize this is hardly canonical, but I wanted an astrographic, rather
> than social, reason to red-zone Pluto, and this seemed more interesting and
> less damaging to the established history than an antimatter planet or
> something.
>
> Comments by anyone with more knowledge in physics or chemistry are welcomed.

Well, since the late 70s, it's been known that Pluto has a moon that's
almost as big as it is. Which explains some of the density anomalies.
The old calculations were based on an incorrect diameter. 

Also, it's been known since the 40s (or earlier) that Pluto just plain
didn't have the mass to be the source of the orbital perturbations that
had been used in settuping up the search that found it. In essence, it
was a *co-incidence* that Pluto was in the search area. 

Now as for your odd version of Pluto, nothing *chemical* will work.
It's too cold for any chemical reaction to proceed all that fast. So
probes *couldn't* be converted all that fast. 

There are some exotic particles that could produce interesting effects.
For example, there's a property called "strangeness" that's not found
in normal matter. But if a particle with a strange "charge" was to get
dumped into a large chunk of normal matter, under some circumstances,
more strange particles can be produced. The end result would be a
macroscopic chunk of "strange matter". 

You'll have to do some literature searches for the hypothesized
properties of large chunks of strange matter, but they might just let
you do something interesting with Pluto.

Explosions are easily explained, since strange matter could act as a
catalyst for various sorts of nuclear reactions.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:49:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Calendars

In mail you write:

> jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin) wrote:
>
>> I'd really like to hear from Those Who Know what the exact
>> corresponding dates and times are, so I can write a correct
>> calendar program to convert between the various calendars.
>
> I think the GDW Solomani book set 001-0 to 19 Jan 4521 (which happens to
> be a Sunday, according to "cal").  Leap days cause the Imperial calendar
> to drift, so 001-4 is 18 Jan 4525, and so on.  If my quick math is right
> 001-1117 would be 4 Apr 5637.  The first Oneday (002-0) would then be a 
> Monday, although the week cycle would get out of sync on 001-1, since on
> the Imperial calendar Holiday has no weekday.
>
>> referred to as a 'sol'.  Similarly, the term 'year' is reserved
>> for the standard Imperial year of 365 days; a local planetary
>> revolutional cycle will be referred to as an 'ano'.
>
> You know, "anno" might be a better choice; "ano" is a word in Spanish,
> and it has nothing to do with "ao", the similar word for year....

I'd figured the second n would get dropped. But given this new data,
I'll keep the second n. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 05:16:27 -0800 (PST)
From: John Meyers <johncmeyers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Thermal Imaging and IR

There is a lot of confusion over what IR and thermal imaging really
are. That's because nobody really agrees on what the terms themselves
mean. IR is just an abbreviation for infra-red. The infra-red band
begins at the end of the visible spectrum (near-IR), which is around
800 nm, and extends all the way out to 25 000 nm or so (far-IR).
Common usage is that middle- and far-IR are called thermal.

The US military currently has systems that work in the near-IR bands,
as well as middle-IR and far-IR. The near-IR are all image
intensifiers. They take incoming "light" and amplify it so that you
can see images. This is what the starlight scopes are. (Actually these
devices work in the visible and near-IR range. The aviators have a
special version that filters out the lower end of the visible
spectrum, the blues and greens, to allow them to use the goggles in
specially lit cockpits.) Example: ANVIS (Aviator's Night Vision System).

The middle-IR devices are typically man-portable and use uncooled
technology to detect thermal radiation (often in the 3-5 000 nm
range). The detector works by displaying the intensities on some kind
of screen. The display is always in greyscale (since you don't have
any discrimination between wavelengths that you would need to get
color [not that it would be very meaningful to us anyway]) and can
(often) be switched between "white-hot" and "black-hot". These systems
are usually the smallest and have the shortest range (<< 1 km) but
fewest logistic requirements. Example: SRTS (Short Range Thermal Sight).

The far-IR devices are typically vehicle mounted and use a cooled
detector technology to detect thermal radiation (often in the 8-12 000
nm range). These devices usually have a longer range (>1 km) but
require extra power, "air bottles" (the coolant), or both. It also
works as either a "white-hot" or "black-hot" intensity based system.
Example: TIS (Thermal Imaging System on M1A1 tank).

When you see color images, the color is a "false color" that is used
to (hopefully) enhance your understanding of the image. For example,
an insulation salesman may show you a picture of your building with
blues for cold spots and reds for hot spots. What is not readily
apparent is what temperature counts as cold and what for hot!

(I hope my examples are still current--it's been a few years since I
did this stuff.)

John Meyers
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:12:16 -0000
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Insurgencies

Ian Whitchurch wrote:
> What does the Imperium do when it has suppressed a rebellion ?
> Does it install and attempt to maintain a puppet government, or
> does it 'restore order' and then sail away, with a warning not
> to do it again (isnt it Dlan that has that nice sterile band
> around the equator ?).


GT:BTC has some interesting info on this  subject  re  the  Sword
Worlds.  It states (p127) that pre-5FW the Imperium had  tried  a
succession of "punitive occupations".  Then at the end of the 5FW
they tried setting up the Border Worlds (a  puppet  state  buffer
zone) with questionable success.  Okay, this wasn't a  suppressed
rebellion but it does illustrate the Imperial  mindset  on  Iraq-
like intractable problems.

Then there was the heavy-handed  military  response  to  the  Ine
Givar on Efate just prior to the 5FW.  The Imperium's  equivalent
to the US's Viet Nam situation?

Finally, there are references (in CT) to 'gunboat diplomacy'  ...
as if such things are the norm.

The Imperium seems to exhibit a degree of arrogance in seeing its
military superiority as a simple solution  to  all  things.  Thus
many social problems would be  repressed  rather  than  resolved.
This may have been a large part of what Dulinor wanted to change,
and why (in non-GT) the Imperium fell apart so quickly  once  the
might of the Imperial Navy became neutralised.



Regards PLST

"There are no stupid questions, only stupid people"
- - Mr Garrison, South Park

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 09:06:34 -0500
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Surveillance

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> Uhhh...Hollyweird is not a generally good place to get an idea of how
> realistic some sensor mode would be. Bluntly: No way, no how, not
> through walls. No matter how good of IR sensor technology you have,
> putting an insulating wall between you and the sourse will degrade your
> resolution really, _really_ fast. Think air scatters IR badly? Wait till
> you try to image it through concrete and fiberglass. The equivalent of
> trying to read a paperback through 6" of mud.
> 
> At very best, you will be able to resolve people's locations behind very
> thin partitions.
> 
> All those glorious false color Hollywood SFX look great, but are
> physically impossible.
> 
> Now..._outdoor_ IR scanning like that, perfectly doable; we do it today.
> Most night vision systems also can use an IR illuminator. All the nifty
> false color stuff requires is a reasonably fast signal processing
> computer.
> 

Bruce is absolutely right.  I haven't seen the Washington films, but did
see Patriot Games. 
The footage in Patriot Games is legit, but remember that the scene is in
the middle of a desert (cold) at night (cold) and the subjects (hot) are
inside just GP medium tents.  In other words, no real barrier to the IR
sat picture.  And the resolution isn't that great, just as Bruce said,
people's locations....

And the outdoor stuff?  What we can do is incredible....

Greg
Security Officer
HQtrs USMC

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:35:12 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Request to Change Subject Lines Re: Texas Revolts

My Fellow TMLers,

I've been very impressed with the recent trend in the Texas Revolts 
threads.  Many of the list have brought the discussion into ObTrav 
terms, and presented some interesting ideas on Secessionist style 
campaigns on the borders of the 3I (mostly in Spinward Marches.)

However, several other threads have started from this thread, and are 
now covering richly diverse subjects.  In order to better meet the 
needs of those who are (or possibly are not) interested in some of 
these divergences, would everyone consider changing the subject 
ling of any Texas Revolts post they are responding to, to something 
more appropriate to the subject matter at hand?  In this way, 
discussions might be more easily followed by those whose curiosity 
has been raised by that particular subject matter.

BTW, thanks to everyone who has been so supportive of my "hometown 
pride" within the TFCT, and those who have challenged it with 
constructive support behind their posts.  It is the strength and 
validity of the supporting details that help to sway me in making 
appropriate changes to the timeline or revealing some of my 
campaign's "spoiler" background.  A well-written post backed by 
supportive details does change minds, and I'm glad to see that a vast 
majority of the respondants on this list follow this approach.

Again, thanks to everyone who has responded, both on the list and 
off.  Your input has helped me to make the concepts behind my 
campaign's timeline much stronger, and has opened my eyes to a 
broader viewpoint as I learn from the unique knowledges each of you 
possess and offer to the list as a whole.

In Service and Appreciation,
Jason

PS  Also, as far as Pluto is concerned, my mind has been changed by 
the presentation of various individuals on the list.  I like the 
individual gravesites of 30 humans buried 300,000 years ago.  
Researched by Terran archeologists during the early to mid IW period, 
it was soon forgotten until the early 3I era.  The Solomani begin 
doing advanced research on Pluto, and after the 3I take the Sol 
System back, they interdict the area and continue to build on the 
research lines followed by the Solomani.  This seems to make the most 
sense and ties in well with most canonical sources.  (And it's not 
another Ancient site.  :) -JDK
============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer I
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 09:30:16 -0500
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Hot Button

> The whole issue of religious/cult communes, Government
> >REO's, federal forces is a hot button that we would do well to avoid.
> 
> So you ADMIT that it is a hot button that we would do well to avoid?
> >
> And why would that be?  I thought we had freedom of speech, or am I wrong in
> concluding that you seem to be saying it means REAL trouble, and not just
> ascii flames?
> 
> --Clif

Clif,

I'm sure he meant that these are subjects on which many people feel
strongly, and discussions on these will degenerate into shouting matches
without any additional value to the Traveller discussions ongoing.  Or
at least that the hard feelings outweigh any benefit to the Traveller
discussions.

Prudence dictates that on the norm, we not discuss things on-line that
cause angry and bitter discussions.

Cheers.

Greg

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 09:46:58 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Give the Media a Medal!

Clif wrote:

> So the media gets the credit for postponing the eventual death of all of
> those at Waco who STAYED?  Is this what we are patting them on the back for?
> Zero life is zero life, whether it is 2 weeks later, or not.

This is why I didn't want to get into it really.

This is off-topic and I won't discuss it further, on the list or off.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 10:04:44 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: [OT] Re: Texas Revolts?

"Kelly St.Clair" wrote:

> On Tue, 05 Jan 1999 07:18:05 -0500, steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >You can imagine what a few well-placed Texans behind enemy lines could do
> >to the technologically dependent and sensitive C3I structure of a US government
> >at odds with a secessionary state of over 20million, well-equipped, high
> >technology possessing rednecks with attitude.
>
> With attitude?  I'll say.  Do you all wear big red "S"es on your chests,
> too?

Yup.  And we all wear Stetson hats, snakeskin boots, and carry lassos and
whips, and drive cattle from one part of the ponderosa to the other, and
shoot people with our Colt Revolvers or Winchester Rifles.  Get along,
little doggie.  Yee haw!

> Y'know, I just got done telling Joe Kemp (the original poster on this thread)
> off-list that what probably set a lot of people off was not the details of
> his timeline, but the focus on the GREAT STATE OF TEXAS*, of which he just
> happens to be a citizen.  To be fair, what's in his timeline is fairly
> mild - mere hometown pride.
>
> But then, you go ahead and provide a textbook example of the extreme
> version.  Good job.

I gave a textbook example of hometown pride?  Well, hellfire and tarnation,
pardner!  I don't think my comments were pro-texas, as opposed to other
states.  Texas was the focus of the discussion that, as you correctly point
out, I didn't start.  My comments were in that context.  If it were Oregon,
my comment might well have been:

>You can imagine what a few well-placed [Oregonians] behind enemy lines could do
>to the technologically dependent and sensitive C3I structure of a US government
>at odds with a secessionary state of over [?] million, well-equipped, high
>technology possessing [granolas] with attitude.

Happy?  My point is still valid and had nothing to do with Texas, except for
the approximate population of the state.

> > Keep in mind that for every Texan in Texas,
> >there are 2 that are elsewhere in the country.
> >
> >Bloo
> >(A Texan in Yankeeland)
>
> ... and there are probably lots of Oregonians in other states, too.  What's
> your point?

Talk less, read more, pard.  The point applies equally well to Oregon.
You're looking for disagreements where there are none.  The point,
in case your still missing it, is that _any_ secessionary state will likely have
a large pool of supportive natives integrated into the political/military
infrastructure of any oppressive government, attempting to prevent
a seccssion.  Those ex-residents could easily hamper efforts of the
oppressive government.

Is that sufficiently abstract for you?  Pardon me for staying in context.

> Guess what, Bloo?  A lot of non-Texans think of you much like the French
> Quebecois:  loud, arrogant, annoying, and not nearly as special as they
> like to think they are.

So?  Lots of people group lots of other people into inaccurate stereotypes
all the time.  I'm not sure who you're insulting more: Texans, Quebecois, or
your self.

> Yes, this is a flame.  Apologies to the rest of the list for this moment of
> weakness.

That was more of a spark.  You can't cook no barbeque with that.

Bloo

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1365
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, January 6 1999     Volume 1998 : Number 1366



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Kingmaker (was Re: Texan Secession_
Re: Surveillance
Rule systems.
Re: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions
Ziru Sirka Scout/Exploration Vessel Request
Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)
Re: Rule systems.
Re: style
Re: style
Re: style
re: Thermal Imaging and IR
Re: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions
Re: Thermal Imaging and IR
Re: American soldiers firing on citizens...
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: Hot Button
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 10:09:40 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Kingmaker (was Re: Texan Secession_

Walter Smith wrote:

> This Texan Secession/American soldiers firing on American citizens
> thread put me in mind of a civil war game I've played. No, not the civil
> war in 1860's US - the civil war in 14th century England. Avalon Hill's
> _Kingmaker_, a War of the Roses simulation.

That game rocks.  Thanks for reminding me of it.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 06:04:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Surveillance

In mail you write:

> Clif wrote:
>
>> What happened to the sort of thermal imaging shown in Patriot Games and in
>> that recent Denzel Washington movie?
>
> Uhhh...Hollyweird is not a generally good place to get an idea of how
> realistic some sensor mode would be. Bluntly: No way, no how, not
> through walls. No matter how good of IR sensor technology you have,
> putting an insulating wall between you and the sourse will degrade your
> resolution really, _really_ fast. Think air scatters IR badly? Wait till
> you try to image it through concrete and fiberglass. The equivalent of
> trying to read a paperback through 6" of mud.

> At very best, you will be able to resolve people's locations behind very
> thin partitions.
>
> All those glorious false color Hollywood SFX look great, but are
> physically impossible.

Well, from what I hear, millimeter wave radar should be able to do much
the same thing. Give decent images thru typical house walls. But I
agree that IR won't do it. And millimeter wave radar is *active* rather
than passive, making it a much iffier proposition in a combat situation.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 07:34:36 -0800
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Rule systems.

>>>I personaly like much of the rules, in spirit if not always the
>>>exact mechanics. They are much closer to the CT/MT rules that TNE. Of

>>>course TNE used the same engine as 2300 so you might want to look for
a
>>>copy of those rules
>>
>>I thought it was Twilight: 2000's rules set. My copy of 2300 looks
>>nothinglike TNE.
>
>Twilight 2000 V2.2 was Twilight 2000 V2.0 modified to be compatible
>with TNE.
>
>So TNE definitely did _not_ come from Twilight 2000

TNE used the GDW house system which was the T2K engine, slightly
modified and updated.  Not the original T2K, but the d20 verson of T2K.

The House Rules system was used in Cadillac's and Dino's, Dark
Conspiracy, TNE and T2K.  All the weapons, equipments and characters are
completely interchangable between these various games.

2300, originally published as 2300AD used a rule set most people likened
to MT in design but still quite different and original.  Many of the
ideas in Star Cruiser, the starship combat system of 2300 found their
way into Brilliant Lances, the starship combat system for TNE.  These
would include things like, detection phases, x-ray detonation lasers,
and sensor white-out from nuclear detonations.

Not to mention the complete removal of contact missiles in a starship
combat arena, you're firing at something 30 meter's long from 180,000 km
away, it's moving, you're moving and you're missile only has so much
fuel and manouvering ablitity do you honestly think you have a hope in
hell of actually hitting the target.

All in all the TNE rules system works nicer and doesn't rely on 1/2
d6's, let me get out my ginsu knife, you can cut a d6 with it.

Derek Stanley
TNE

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:39:07 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions

> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 00:29:00 +0100
> From: Jesus <324064@cienz.unizar.es>
> Subject: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions
> 
> Some questions:
> 
> Are they changes in the Classic Canon or simply a lot of errata?
> If they are errata, anybody has the list of errata of BH?

There was a screw-up in email between MJ Dougherty and Neil Frier in
Britain and Loren Wiseman in Austin during the (very tight) production of
BtC, with the result that much of what you see is essentially a first
draft, without extensive error checking.

SJ Games maintains an official errata page, at:

http://www.sjgames.com/errata/gurps/traveller-behind-the-claw.html

but there isn't a lot listed there yet. I don't know if there are more
errata working their way through the system or not.

> There is any reason to not include the info about the number of Gas
> Giants and planetoid belts?
> 

With any luck, that information will be included in the upcoming GT: Far
Trader sourcebook.

> What do you think of the problems to trade between Darrian, Sword
> Worlds, and Imperial Frontiers? My players will play with a FarTrader
> with this idea.
> 

Languages, customs, Customs, and psychology -- those are your big problems.
 Make sure your characters have the right set of social and professional
skills to wend their way through all the attendant red tape.

If you feel like it, you can also make different industrial standards a
hurdle to cross-border trade (e.g., the Zhodani will not use 110/220vAC
current at 60 Hz, or metric measurements, for their industrial machinery).

> In GURPS Traveller, What happens with the costs of Life support
> systems?, Are they free now?
> 

Essentially yes, although the food produced by the life support system
isn't all that appetizing. Use the costs for restaurant meals in GURPS
Space (p. 37; Cr 5 to 40 per meal) as a base for costs of fresh food, then
discount as appropriate (80%) for buying in bulk and fixing them yourself.

The port fee in GT was increased in part to compensate for reduced life
support costs (i.e., it includes filter changes and such).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:41:47 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Ziru Sirka Scout/Exploration Vessel Request

To All Interested Vilani Enthusiasts and Geerheads,

In Phase Two of Project: StarRise (my First Contact campaign), I am 
intending on running the PCs through a short tour of duty aboard a 
Vilani Scout/Exploration Vessel, as part of a mixed Terran/Vilani 
crew.  This allows me to pursue an exploration style game with some 
of the cultural integration opportunities found in the early 
ST:Voyager episodes.  (Good roleplay!)

This type of mixed crew mission is mentioned in canon; such 
references are the source for this phase of the campaign.  While such 
an occurence doesn't quite fit what we've known of the Vilani 
mindset before Terran contact, I'm trying to find a way to make it 
work as a source of adventure for my PCs.

I assume that the Ziru Sirka has a variety (albeit small) of 
exploration vessels used in it's rare moments of expansion.  I am 
looking for details regarding such vessels.  If none have been 
detailed, I would be very interested in seeing what suggestions 
anyone had for their construction, and possible even a few examples.  
(The system used to construct the vessel(s) does not matter so much 
to me, as I will be translating the results into HERO System format, 
due to Gamer Psych Lims.)

I do know that the following restrictions apply:

1)  The vessel(s) should be of TL11 (that's Traveller, not GURPS.  I
don't have my GT book with me to translate.  My apologies.) 

2)  The vessel(s) should be able to hold enough crew for 3-6 PCs, and 
at least 3-6 NPCs, if not more.

3)  Flattened disk hull design is prevalent in Vilani designs.

4)  If armed, the Vilani preference at the time was missiles 
predominately.

5)  Crew complement must include a Steward (Shuligii) to prepare 
Vilani meals.

6)  Vilani designs tend to be larger than those used by Terrans.  
(i.e. the common merchant vessel of the Ziru Sirka more closely 
resembled the subsidized merchant than the free trader of CT).

Crew Member Question:

Besides Vilani, are there any suggested Minor Races that might have a 
crew member represented onboard the exploration vessel?

I have plans of including a Vegan, but there are no other canonical
minor races of the Solomani Rim (not including the Cymbelline
Chips (sp?)).  I'd like to give my PCs other opportunities to meet 
new races, and would prefer to use canon sources before diving into 
Minor Races of my own creation.  Maybe I can dig some 
interesting races from Alien Archives.  I'm sure there are some 
interesting races in old JTAS articles, etc, who have been part of 
the Ziru Sirka before First Contact.

This campaign is an introduction to Traveller for most of the
players, and I want to "raise 'em right."  :)

Thanks in advance for any assistance granted.

In Service,
Jason
============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer I
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:19:37 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)

OK, here we go.  This is NOT an attempt to start a flame war.  Sensible
minds may disagree about many things in life.

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:
>>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>>Subject: Re: Texas revolts
>...
>>Isn't it great to be able to serve in the military and become a free
citizen
>>civilian who was only sufficiently trained to be able to have 10 rounds
in
>>his magazine, though in the service he was responsible enough to have 30?
>
>  Why not? - just what do you need more than ten rounds (or semi-auto
>weapons for that matter) _for_?
>
>  You guys in Texas hunt Vorpal Bunnies or something?
>
>  No doubt the Zho's would've won the 5FW if the populace of Garda-Vilis
>hadn't been liberally equipped with assaut rifles w/30-round clips.


Well, this is probably going to restart the semi-Annual US 2nd Amendment
argument, but it DOES have some very interesting Traveller implications.

First - for the USA side of things (and perhaps more generally), my
response would be 'What is the inherent difference if I am killed by the
5th round in a 10-round magazine or the 15th round in a 20-round magazine?
Why is there a general assumption that I, as the owner of a semi-auto
weapon, am out to gun down several dozen school children or postal workers?
The 10-round limit is yet another 'feel good' government measure that
accomplishes nothing, but makes people THINK the government is doing
something meaningful.  Western Civilization, particularly the USA, has a
tradition of assuming innocence until guilt is proven,  The only exception
to this seems to involve firearms; it seem to be automatically assumed that
firearms owners are guilty of at least wanting to murder someone.

Now, the real actual On Topic part of the discussion.  A large portion of
the Traveller rules are taken up with rules for combat and weapons use, as
well as a sizable set of weapons statistics.  Based on experience and
first-hand observation, I have found the typical Traveller player to be
pretty well-armed; how many of you can claim their character party has NO
firearms/lasers/non-melee weapons?  I am sure some can make this claim, but
the majority cannot.  Tis is reflected by (or is a reflection of) a lot of
the published Traveller adventures; folks in Traveller society tend to be
well-heeled in the weapons department.  There are actual reasons in
Traveller to have these weapons; the Traveller Universe is NOT a friendly
place.  You have Zho Infiltrators, SolSec Agents, IneGivar Terrorists,
Pirates, Bandits, Oppresive Governments, Corrupt Corporations and other
things that occasionally require weapons to get around.  Toss in the
occasional unfriendly alien critter (sentient or otherwise) and the odd
leftover Ancient Warbot, and it quickly becomes apparent that the Traveller
Universe is armed for a reason.

However, there are many worlds that strongly restrict weapons.  These
worlds have bee unpopular with Travellers in my experience (high law levels
are not only a problem for weapons-toters, they are also uncomfortable for
everyone else).  The Imperium does not seem to take any direct position on
private weapons ownership, but probably does not allow folks to carry
around backpack nukes and meson weapons, and I imagine there are some
rather stringent safeguards on FGMPs.

So, how does the Traveller Universe feel about these well-armed Travellers?
On High-Law worlds, these folks tend to keep their arsenal in the extrality
zone of the Starport, I imagine.  But how many times has a character in
your game smuggled an illegal weapon onto a high or medium law world 'just
in case'.  And how many times did that weapon turn out to be needed?  In my
experience as a player, GM and observer of others' games, this has happened
quite often, and is also quite often the thing that saves the party from
certain death.  The GM often expects this, and plans on using it as part of
the adventure.  The players might get caught, or the players might face a
foe that requires a weapon for an easy escape.

So - in the Traveller Universe, are there Imperium-wide organizations like
Handgun Control out there trying to get Imperial laws restricting weapons?
Is there a social stigma for those who own weapons, or carry weapons
openly.  Does the Imperial media portray weapons as inherently good,
inherently evil or merely as tools?  Are there any Imperium-wide weapons
manufacturers (personal weapons), or are these generally built by local
companies (using Imperial standard designs for military contracts).  Does
the Imperium exercise exclusive control of FGMPs and PGMPSs?  Which
immediatey begs the question Is there a thriving black market in PGMPs and
FGMPs?  And finally, what sort of restrictions are there on explosives?
Not only bombs and hand grenades, but HEAP rounds for hand-held weapons;
these are by definition also explosives.\

IMTU - there is no Imperial-level Handgun Control movement; this is handled
at the planetary level.  However, the Imperium does in thoery hold
exclusive control of PGMPs and FGMPs, and yes there is a black market in
these weapons.  HEAP rounds are explosives, and so are covered by the Law
Level restrictions.  The Imperial media (unlike the modern media) views
weapons as tools, neither inherently good not evil.  Some Imperial
megacorps DO make weapons, but most weapons are made by smaller local
companies, using standardized Imperial designs when selling to Imperial or
Planetary miilitaries.  The Imperials have standard designs for planetary
militaries as well, just in case the local army has to be pressed into
Imperial service; makes logistics less cumbersome if you know all TL9
troops will use the 4.75mm Assault Rifle round and the 38mm RAM Grenade.

Sorry for the long post, but I have noticed that for all of the firearms
laws flame wars we have had, we have never really gotten into the Traveller
implications of this subject.  Please think about this and respond about
your ideas about weapons necessity, laws and ethics in the Traveller
Imperium.  Try to avoid the very tempting flame war aspects.  And of course
remember that anyone who disagrees with MY opinions about weapons laws is
OBVIOUSLY wrong.  ;-)

Steven Charlton

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:26:07 -0600 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Rule systems.

<snippy snip>

>2300, originally published as 2300AD used a rule set most people likened
>to MT in design but still quite different and original.

<kersnip>

Uh, you mean "2300AD, originally published as Traveller 2300," don't you?

Just being a nitpick.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:56:55 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: style

Steven Hudson said:

>>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
>>Subject: Re: style
>...
>>RPGs must be art heavy, and must be art heavy with, at the very least,
>>decent art. Even SJG has picked up on this recently, which is a really
good
>>thing to some, and a really bad thing to others.
>
> (much good analysis snipped)
>
>  In other words, we have to learn to love artwork over (text) content?  :(


I guess in some ways yes, and in other ways no.

I'm not sure if you've seen GT or not, but the basic rulebook is pretty
heavy on art. On the other hand, it's pretty heavy on rules and text combat.
To me, it's a very happy medium.

The market has changed though. If the next version of Traveller is to
survive (or even thrive) the designers have to realize who the modern market
is comprised of.

Personally, I'd love to see new players brought into the Traveller fold. The
success of GURPS Traveller is heartening in a big way. However, from my
reading the message boards on Pyramid, it seems that many of the GT players
were either people who played Traveller extensively, people who checked it
out because of the SJG hype around it, and people who have roleplayed for a
long time and had already heard good things about Trav but never played it.

It's a shot in the arm, but only time will tell if Traveller can get the
attention of fresh, new players.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:09:00 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: style

On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Steven Hudson wrote:

> >From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
> >Subject: Re: style
> ...
> >RPGs must be art heavy, and must be art heavy with, at the very least,
> >decent art. Even SJG has picked up on this recently, which is a really good
> >thing to some, and a really bad thing to others.
> 
>  (much good analysis snipped)
> 
>   In other words, we have to learn to love artwork over (text) content?  :(
> 

  Just IMO of course, but the best White Wolf products (for example) don't
really sacrifice content for artwork. In their best books both atrwork
_and_ text are excellent. True, there are some really lousy ones, but then
I have yet to see an RPG product line that didin't have these.

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:15:54 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: style

Eppu Tuominen said:

>On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Steven Hudson wrote:
>>   In other words, we have to learn to love artwork over (text) content?
:(
>>
>
>  Just IMO of course, but the best White Wolf products (for example) don't
>really sacrifice content for artwork. In their best books both atrwork
>_and_ text are excellent. True, there are some really lousy ones, but then
>I have yet to see an RPG product line that didin't have these.


I agree with you here Eppu.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:26:03 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Thermal Imaging and IR

>I don't even know WHY you
>brought up IR when I mentioned thermal imaging.

Because thermal imaging does infact involve detection of infrared photons.
The problem is that the word "infrared" is used in a very sloppy sense. 
Many people use "infrared" to describe any photons with wavelengths longer
than the longest your eye can see (0.8 microns) out to just-short-of-microwaves
(0.1 millimeters, 100 microns.) All of these are technically infrared.
A lot of relatively simple detectors - including camcorders, many sorts of
starlight scopes - are sensitive out to about 1 micron, so they can technically
see a tiny bit of infrared, assuming there is 0.8 - 1 micron light
available. 

If you want to see objects by their own radiation, though, you need something
better. Warm (room-temperature) objects give off most of their radiation
at infrared wavelengths around 10-20 microns, so you need a very different
kind of infrared detector to image objects from the radiation they emit, which
is what is normally called "thermal imaging". 

More precise terminology might be to refer to the following ranges:

Near infrared (0.8 - 1.6 microns): very easy to detect (especially below
1 micron), but only "sees" things being illuminated by ane xternal light
source (like a flashlight with an IR filter.) 

Mid Infrared (3-5 microns): You can get really nice mid-IR cameras for about
$25,000 these days. This can "see" objects by their own thermal radiation,
letting you see warm bodies, etc, although it's not quite as good for
cold metal objects (like, to drag this back to Traveller, spacecraft hulls.)

Thermal Infrared (10-20 microns): More expensive/complicated, better
sensitivity to cold objects 


The question of whether the display you see is color or black-and-white
is completely seperate from the wavelength used; that's just a matter of
image processing - whether "bright" is assigned to "white" or "red". 

Thermal IR is often more sensitive to subtle temperature differences at
room temperature, but not by much. A nice mid-IR camera (I've worked with
these quite a bit) can see blood vessels in your face, and see warm spots
on something that a person has been handling for a minute or two afterwards.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 06:21:05 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions

>> Are they changes in the Classic Canon or simply a lot of errata?
>> If they are errata, anybody has the list of errata of BH?
>
>There was a screw-up in email between MJ Dougherty and Neil Frier in
>Britain and Loren Wiseman in Austin during the (very tight) production of
>BtC, with the result that much of what you see is essentially a first
>draft, without extensive error checking.

<Rant>
Great, so the Imperium Games disease hits Steve Jackson Games as well.

Isn't anyone in the RPG industry capable of telling dick-head
accountants and managers that it will be finished when it's finished,
and that they _won't_ be allowing the company to release the product
until it's properly tested ?

Surely no-one was really relying on getting "Behind The Claw" exactly
on time and a couple of weeks, or even months, delay in production
wouldn't have bothered anyone who wanted to buy it ?

I really don't understand game companies or the people who work for
them.

Firstly, how can a game company stick to a ridiculously tight release
schedule, when there is no need for such a schedule in the first
place, and secondly, how can any professional (and I'll admit I'm
being "nice" by including game designers/writers as "professionals" )
allow a product to be released with their name on it that hasn't had
rudimentary checking ?

Or has no-one in the game industry got the guts to stand up to idiots
?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:28:12 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Thermal Imaging and IR

>> I was under the impression that thermal imaging was based on a different,
>> much-less-portable, technology.

>Sort of.  They're both IR sensors, though.  Best I know its kind of like the
>difference between black and white and color -- IR sensors can only detect
>brightness, thermographs can also detect peak emissions frequency
>(temperature).

Not really - most thermal imagers detect only brightness at a single
wavelength and use post-processing to convert that into a temperature estimate.
The real difference is whether you're using something that's only sensitive
to 1 micron but has been marketed as "infrared" by unscrupulous people, or 
something sensitive to the longer IR wavelengths that warm objects give off.
(SEe previous post.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 09:01:21
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: American soldiers firing on citizens...

At 11:57 AM 1/3/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Yeah, they call such activity "domestic terrorism" these days...
>
>And you know what happens to terrorists... double-tap to the no-reflex
>zone...

Which is why Timothy McVeigh and his compatriot, along with the World Trade
center folks are in Federal Prisons today.

Doug.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 08:58:12
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

At 11:45 PM 1/5/99 -0500, you wrote:

>For example, a personal fight between two humans might be resolved in a
>fashion much like our ancestors, alot of "chest beating" and yelling in an
>attempt to drive off the opponent. However, the battlefields of Europe in
>WWII were very different situations.

Most fights between humans are charisma battles.  Everybody remember
grade/high school?  "I'm going to kick your ass/kill you/etc,.  Nobody
really got hurt, but the winners standing among his peers soared.  Maybe
Craig can tell you about the day he had his alpha moment.  :)

In Infantry OSUT, we had to unlearn those instincts, since we had to kill
our opponents.  It was more difficult than you might think.  We have a
culture that values violence as long as it doesn't get out of hand (think
about the popular sports.. boxing, American rules football, real football,
rugby).  We value the concept of an Alpha leading our pack to the fore.  A
Vargr would want a more personal relationship with the alpha.  A Vargr
might find my devotion to the 49ers silly, since the Denver Broncos are
obviously the better leaders, and even then I've never met the leader of
the 49ers, so how can I be impressed by him?

That being said, I think the Vargr military might be more efficient than
the average Imperial unit.  Like the pirates of old, leadership posts would
be held based on crew confidence.  A leader who loses the confidence of his
followers is going to be challenged and replaced.  So every squad leader is
going to have the complete confidence of his squad, and late leader is
going to have confidence in his platoon leader, and so on up the chain.

- --

Douglas E. Berry
Pawn of the Droyne Conspiracy.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

UTUP: 0304 B-662D37B-5-5-2

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 09:13:27
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Hot Button

At 09:09 PM 1/5/99 -0500, you wrote:

>And why would that be?  I thought we had freedom of speech, or am I wrong in
>concluding that you seem to be saying it means REAL trouble, and not just
>ascii flames?

Clif, this is the TRAVELLER mailing List.  We are here to discuss
Traveller, not government conspiracies.  If you like to discuss
conspiracies, might I suggest the usenet group alt.conspiracy?  I am a
regular there, and you'd fit right in.

This is a private mailing list, and you do not have the freedom to post
off-topic and inflammatory messages at your whim.  Either take it off-list,
or please leave the list.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-------------------------------------+
| "Some days, you just can't get rid  |
|  of a bomb!"                        |
|     -Adam West, the REAL Batman     |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 08:45:04
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

At 03:04 PM 1/5/99 -0500, you wrote:

>ASLAN would use "hunt" in isolation, using stealth and silence, getting as
>close as possible and then pouncing with tremendous damage (maybe using a
>cloaking device?).  Or, they may just run down their "prey" with speed.
>Perhaps their ships would have spikes on them and they would just ram their
>enemies, not visible until almost too late?

Urp.  Ramming at Traveller velocities is a good way to turn you and your
enemies into rapidly expanding balls of plasma.  also, since most sensor
will find ships out to almost 1 million km, sneaking up isn't an option.
Aslan males would want to be seen fighting, to increase their chances of
being in the clan's Song of Heroes.

>VARGR would "hunt" in packs and pick the weakest target and overwhelm it
>while the others ran away.  You could hear them "a mile away" and could pick
>some of them off, but they'd get their "food" for the day.  Whether on the
>ground or in space, they would have some kind of "howl" mechanism (hailing
>frequency?) that would send chills down a human's spine.

While the Vargr do have a pack mentality, remember that they are
intelligent.  A Vargr could easily be trained to act as a sniper, and wait
in perfect silence to attack a single high value target.. the same way that
a group of drunken Aslan could charge a single target howling at the top of
their lungs.

There is a problem in ascribing to much from the Aslan/Vargr base creatures
to the aliens themselves.. The Aslan are not big kitties, and the Vargr may
have been wolves at one point, but now they are a fully sentient race.  Or
to put it another way, we're primates, but I don't know of any battle in
World War II where the opposite sides stood up, screamed, waved their arms
and flung feces at each other, which is how chimps make war.  You can see
that sort of display behavior in humans, but it has changed.

Perhaps the Aslan, descended from chasers, have a taste for pursuit
operations, and tend to see things from a black and white chaser/chased
position.  Considering their culture, they have a strong surrender reflex
(ever watch cats fight?) and Aslan who had never fought humans would but
completely un aware that somebody could fake a surrender.  Vargr do tend to
gravitate into packs, but that doesn't mean they won't use the best tactics
available when they do fight.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1366
***********************************

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Traveller-digest     Wednesday, January 6 1999     Volume 1998 : Number 1367



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4
Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)
Re: real-world railguns
Re: real-world railguns
Re: real-world railguns
Re: Surveillance
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: Texas revolts
Re: Aslan Ihatei
GT tech levels (was Re: Ziru Sirka Scout/Exploration Vessel Request)
Re: Huh?
FF&S2 ISBN
Stealth as a Tool
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: Thermal Imaging and IR
Re: Texas revolts
Re: FF&S2 ISBN
Re: Huh?
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: Aslan Ihatei
Re: Surveillance
Tour a Real Fusion Reactor

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 09:28:28
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4

At 07:24 PM 1/6/99 +1300, you wrote:

>Twilight 2000 V2.2 was Twilight 2000 V2.0 modified to be compatible
>with TNE.
>
>So TNE definitely did _not_ come from Twilight 2000

IIRC, T2K second edition came first, then the same system was used for
Cadillacs and Dinosaurs, Dark Conspiracy, and finally TNE.  I clearly
remember being excited that I could use my DC and T2K books with Traveller.

T2K v.2.2 brought T2K in line with the d20 system, but the base game
mechanic was well established.

Anybody got a GDW timeline handy?
- --

+--------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net  |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/    |
+--------------------------------------+
| "Oh, My God.. they killed STREPHON!  | 
|  You Bastards!!!!                    |
|                -Grand Admiral Kyle   |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:29:33 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)

>OK, here we go.  This is NOT an attempt to start a flame war.  Sensible
>minds may disagree about many things in life.
Hurrah!

[snip to the meat of the matter]
>So, how does the Traveller Universe feel about these well-armed Travellers?

First allow me to be somewhat appalled at the assumption that the
"Traveller Universe" has any identifiable single opinion on the subject
[pause] there.

[snip]

>So - in the Traveller Universe, are there Imperium-wide organizations like
>Handgun Control out there trying to get Imperial laws restricting weapons?

IMTU there are several...dozen.  All claim to be "Imperium Wide", most have
a concentration of employees and sponsors on one high pop world and a
scattering in the nearby region...and almost no measurable presence
anywhere else.  None are listened to by the Imperial Goverment on Capital
since they leave these things up to local governments and try not to get
involved.

>Is there a social stigma for those who own weapons, or carry weapons
>openly.  Does the Imperial media portray weapons as inherently good,
>inherently evil or merely as tools?

This varies so widely from place to place there can be no real answer.
Even in the U.S. (never mind the rest of the planet) in Boston I'd be
arrested for carrying a gun on general principles, licensed or not.  In
Alaska there are some places where only a fool would go out without a hefty
weapon for bear protection, and I once read that there is, in fact, a law
against camping in some areas of Alaske without a gun handy.

No, gun mores must vary from place to place.

That said, there may be "regional" standards of behavior for any type of
activity (guns, sex, clothes, language), especially around high-pop worlds
which are probably the source of many of the nearby planets' inhabitants,
or at least their mainstream entertainment vids.

>  Are there any Imperium-wide weapons
>manufacturers (personal weapons),

Yes.

> or are these generally built by local
>companies (using Imperial standard designs for military contracts).

Yes.

>Does
>the Imperium exercise exclusive control of FGMPs and PGMPSs?

No, but IMTU you need to get an Imperial Permit for military grade weapons,
unless they are transported as cargo (i.e. in sealed containers).  such
permits are generally intended for mercenaries, and are obtained from the
Imperial Authority in the area (That is, the local nobility or a ranking
Naval officer where no nobles are in residence).  Having such a permit does
not mean free reign to blow things away, but it does tend to keep pesky
local customs folk from confiscating that nice grenade launcher you picked
up.

The permit itself ranges from a scrawled signature on a hand written note
saying "This guy may carry what he wants" to a formal document listing
eachand every weapon and its ammunition loadout.  Enforcement varies just
as widely, and someone with the former permit may find it inadequate in a
space controlled by an authority which issues the latter.  Barring serious
destruction, however, most authorities would limit their penalizing to
confiscation and destruction of unauthorized weapons.

>  Which
>immediatey begs the question Is there a thriving black market in PGMPs and
>FGMPs?

Of course.

>  And finally, what sort of restrictions are there on explosives?
>Not only bombs and hand grenades, but HEAP rounds for hand-held weapons;
>these are by definition also explosives.\

Dont forget TNT, nitroglycerine, ammonium nitrate, tritium, gasoline, etc
etc.  Generally, weapons are restricted if they can be called "Military
Grade".  This varies somewhat, but the line is generally drawn at fully
automatic slug throwers larger than 7mm, vehicle mounted semi-automatic
cannon larger than 40mm, Any fusion or plasma weapons, and anything like
artillery.  Note that this gives Imperial citizenry the authority to own
single shot rocket propelled grenades, direct fire rocket launchers,
handheld lasers of any type, hand grenades, large caliber rifles (remember
the "crunch gun?"), mount a 35mm cannon on the ATV, and many other
permutations.  This is mainly because the Imperium is stilll a wild place
in some areas and such weapons are needed to "tame" the local wildlife
frequently.  Note that the rules change for starship mounted weapons.

Explosives are another story entirely.  Aside from restrictions on weapons
of mass destruction - which is taken very seriously IMTU - there are very
few Imperial restrictions on what you can carry around that goes "Boom".
Someone carrying tritium or enriched uranium would be scrutinized, but as
soon as the records showing their history of building fission power plants
is produced, they will be unmolested.

One theme runs through my campaign.  The Imperium is not a consistent
place, and you may find things very different at the next port of call.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:32:56 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: real-world railguns

>    Why doesn't NASA or some other government body, say the dept. of Energy
>Scale up the Russian Topaz reactor to power the station?
Aside from political issues - flying RTGs to Saturn is hard enough,
flying a full-fledged reactor in LEO would be painful - reactors don't actually
buy you all *that* much in power-to-weight over solar in earth orbit, 
particularly for a manned mission (which would need lots of shielding) and 
a very long duration one (20 years or so for the Station, so you'd need
replacement reactors or cores.) There's also (legitimate) worry about 
the effects of inadequately-shielded reactors on sensitive gamma-ray
telescopes in nearby orbits...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:39:50 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: real-world railguns

>Probably the most "operational" one is 6m long, designed to fit into a
>main battle tank turret.
>The power supply ( an MHD ) is mounted on  two seperate tracked
>vehicles, one for the MHD, the other a bank of capacitors.

I'm not aware of any railguns currently outside of laboratories or test
benches, and I'd like to see a citation...there are artists conceptions and
Army wouldn't-it-be-nice-if sketches, but such things really are still 
at the viewgraph stage.

>Rail-guns need much less
>power than destructive lasers, which have also been seriously proposed
>as orbital weapons.

Sort-of true, but the lasers that are proposed for orbital use these days
are generally chemical lasers (which have better efficiencies and use
storeable fuel rather than electrical energy), and are operating at power
levels appropriate for thin-skinned missiles, not anti-tank.

>Most planning involves mounting such things deep in the Moon , or in
>re-positioned asteroids, with built-in refineries to produce ammo.

Planning in the sense of "science fiction", not "current/plausible military
planning".

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 10:40:33 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: real-world railguns

Eric Freitas wrote:

>     Why doesn't NASA or some other government body, say the dept. of Energy
> Scale up the Russian Topaz reactor to power the station?  For that matter
> you could put up ten of the existing model to power that orbital railgun.
> 

Because of the memories of that satellite disintegrating over Canada a
while back. Hell, NASA has enough trouble launching reactors on
interstellar probes, much less sticking a _bigger_ one in orbit, LEO at
that.

The is no political will to do that, and as we're finding by discussion
on this list _everything_ is driven by politics (economics is only the
politics of money)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:46:47 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Surveillance

>Well, from what I hear, millimeter wave radar should be able to do much
>the same thing. Give decent images thru typical house walls. But I
>agree that IR won't do it. And millimeter wave radar is *active* rather
>than passive, making it a much iffier proposition in a combat situation.

Also hard to use from satellites with any kind of resolution (unless
your antennae is a kilometer across.) And not that hard to shield against
(metal walls.) 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:50:11 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

>Aslan males would want to be seen fighting, to increase their chances of
>being in the clan's Song of Heroes.

Aslan might put more value on active sensors, then...and maybe on ships
custom-tuning the precise frequency of their lasers, so that you can
tell whose laser fire hits a given target. 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 09:41:05
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Texas revolts

At 03:41 PM 1/5/99 -0500, you wrote:

>>     Oh ya, the new legal limit is 10 rounds, not 15...
>>
>Isn't it great to be able to serve in the military and become a free citizen
>civilian who was only sufficiently trained to be able to have 10 rounds in
>his magazine, though in the service he was responsible enough to have 30?

If you need 30 rounds to defend yourself..

BTW:  In the Army I served in, my rifle was locked behind two heavy doors,
could only be issued to me on an order from an officer, and any live ammo
had to be accounted for to every last piece.  I once was grilled for two
hours because a single round of 5.56mm had been found under my bunk (never
mind that my weapon was a 7.62mm.)  There is a world of difference between
the weapons policies of the armed Forces and being a civilian weapons owner.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-------------------------------------+
| "Some days, you just can't get rid  |
|  of a bomb!"                        |
|     -Adam West, the REAL Batman     |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:56:19 -0500
From: David Crew <dcrew@bnl.gov>
Subject: Re: Aslan Ihatei

Blair Lynch-Blosse <blairlb@waikato.ac.nz> wrote:

>I'm currently interested in the Aslan Ihatei Fleets
>and the Imperial responce toward them following the assassination of the
>emperor in 1116.

Some points to consider about the Aslan Ihatei incursion into the Domain of
Deneb in 1118:  (All of this is IMTU)

1) With all the naval bases in Tobia and Pax Rulin Subsectors the Aslan
should not have been able to advance as they did if the fleet was at full
strength.  The solution I used IMTU was two fold - firstly, after the fifth
frontier war the old 'crust' strategy (of defending every Imperial world)
was revamped into a more flexible reserve interior fleets strategy -
meaning less frontline ships were available to meet the initial Aslan
advance.  Secondly what frontline ships there were had been ordered by
Norris in early 1118 to move coreward to counter Zhodani threat and Vargr
action.  This left Trojan Reach 'in the capable hands of the reserve
fleets'.  IMTU this is a mistake of Norris (he underestimated the Aslan
'pressure') but to be fair he had many holes in the dyke to fill and only
limited fingers...

2) IMTU Reserve fleets are maintained by individual worlds (and are more
akin to colonial fleets).  This means that there are really only four
capable reserve fleets in Trojan Reach - Tobia, Albe, Neumann and Perrior
(unless I missed one those are the high pop, average stellar worlds).  In
between these worlds are tens of low pop, low tech (or both) worlds which
can be subjugated by one Aslan colony ship - let alone an Aslan Cruiser.

3) An economic analysis shows that a world like Tobia should have plenty of
reserve fleet capacity to defend its subsector (Hans? I believe this is
your cue...:).  IMTU the reason the Aslan can overcome Tobia subsector is:
1) A critical mass of Aslan Ihatei had been building for some time to
Rimward, kept in check by the 'Fleet Controller' with their colonists in
low berth - waiting for an appropriate world to colonise.  In early 1118
this flood is released into Imperial space.  2) Duke Andrew(?) of Tobia
(and senior sector Duke) kept his fleet around Tobia to protect against an
attack there rather than defending outliying worlds.  The attack on Tobia
only did come after he reversed this policy in late 1118 and began trying
to expel Aslan from their 'homes'.  Duke Andrew's other mistake was to
treat all Aslan as the same (thus uniting them) rather than dealing with
each clan individually and keeping them fragmented.  Tobia is attacked
while most of its fleet is spread among several other worlds by a united
Aslan Battle Fleet.  (Duke Tobia committed suicide as the first Aslan drop
troops landed on Tobia).  IMTU The Aslan invasion pretty much runs out of
steam in mid-1119 when the number of new fleets entering Imperial space
lessens and the new sector Duke at Gazulin begins turning clans against
each other.

4) IMTU each Aslan fleet is a separate entity, out for its own ends.  The
reason the Aslan advance so fast is that they don't take time to conquer,
or secure each world, but each fleet advances until it finds a suitable
world, unclaimed by another Aslan clan, and stops.  This inevitably means
that the low pop, low tech (ie defenseless) worlds are taken first, leaving
small islands of high pop, high tech worlds which can only be taken (later,
in 1119) by alliances of clans.

You might be interested in my timeline for the Aslan Invasion (at least up
until mid-1118 when I had decided there was to be a large fleet battle in
Pax Rulin subsector - but my players don't know that yet).  It can be found
as a series of TNS articles for my campaign at:

http://www.nais.com/~sfarrant/traveller/index.html

David Crew
dcrew@bnl.gov
MT Ref, Trojan Reach 1118

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 12:55:04 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: GT tech levels (was Re: Ziru Sirka Scout/Exploration Vessel Request)

At 09:41 6-1-99 -0600, Jason Kemp wrote:
>1)  The vessel(s) should be of TL11 (that's Traveller, not GURPS.  I
>don't have my GT book with me to translate.  My apologies.) 

I don't have the GT books yet - could somebody post the tech-level
equivalents for me, please?


James

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:05:51 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Huh?

You call Texas taking up arms against the rest of the country so that they
can enforce their secession a "peacetime police operation"?

- --Clif

>  Is it possible for anyone with any grasp of real-world politics to
>talk about detonating nuclear weapons on their own national soil as
>part of a peacetime police operation?
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 11:11:09 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: FF&S2 ISBN

Can someone tell me the ISBN of FF&S v2?
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:19:43 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Stealth as a Tool

>Stealth is
>a tool for making maneuvers, not for the actual destruction...


The ninja clans of the Iga Province might disagree, thought they WERE of the
belief that a successful mission was one where you left no trace of your
ever having been there.

But because the Iga-mono were not as well armored and well-equipped as the
Samurai, stealth was their means of survival and of evening the odds.  They
didn't wear black for nothing.

- --Clif

P.S.:  Liked the rest of your post about Vargr and Aslan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:40:54 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

>Maybe because on a high TL battlefield such behavior would be (at the very
>least) contrary to survival?


Would it?  Has anyone playtested these "strategies" and wouldn't a "morale
modifier" come into play after the howl?  Did pyschological warfare REALLY
go out the window, since psyches are still a major factor in high TL
battles?

How about some kind of beam that made a "speaker" out of all of the solids
of the ship, so that everyone on the ship would hear the howl surrounding
them?  Like a backwards Laser microphone?  Instead of reading the vibrations
of a solid to "listen" it could MAKE vibrations in a solid to "speak"...

Why does technological evolution have to occur in parallels?  Couldn't the
Vargr have non-game-imbalancing technologies that the humanoids don't yet
understand?  Only if your players were a bunch of Vargr "on the inside"
would you have to come up with some kind of explanation for the technology.

>Remember, we're not simply talking about a modern day battlefield here.
Your
>example is excellent, as long as audio sensors are relegated to the old Mk.
>I Ear or something similiar.
>
>I'm not saying that your idea's _bad_, I'm just saying Vargr wouldn't be
>terribly effective on the battlefield in such a case. Further, responses to
>a combat situation can be entirely different. In one case, a group of
>corner-yahoos in front of a bar might group together and beat someone to a
>pulp. On the other hand, a trained special forces sniper might off a guard
>at a distance and move on to another location before a search party could
be
>organized to track him down.
>
>Two different approaches to taking someone down. Of course, there are
>thousands and thousands more. Forcing Vargr down a narrow path in a
military
>situation based on the behavior of their non-sentient ancestors makes them
>pretty much useless on a battlefield, and not the threat to the Imperium
>that they have been portrayed.

Military textbooks had the common attack stategy of communist forces down to
 a diagram(punch a hole through the center of the perimeter and fight your
way out while another part of your force flanks, I believe it was).  Knowing
the strategy didn't make them any less of a threat.

Remember "Maverick" in "Top Gun"?  Goddess Kelly McGillis tried to teach him
to follow NATO strategy but he, instead, lived up to his name.  He was just
an individual playing the cowboy.  The majority follows the standard
strategy.
>
>For example, a personal fight between two humans might be resolved in a
>fashion much like our ancestors, alot of "chest beating" and yelling in an
>attempt to drive off the opponent. However, the battlefields of Europe in
>WWII were very different situations.

The thuds and booms of artillery and tank rounds makes for good
chest-beating and suppressed forces often yelled at each other.

A classic scene is the V.C. on the wire in "Apocalypse Now".  "G.I.,
Fuc-BOOM!"
>
>Some elements might be similar, but I doubt that the Vargr would act just
as
>dogs do.


Some dogs are already smart.  Vargr would be much smarter dogs.

How many are familiar with the Kafer in 2300 AD?  They basically acted like
Roaches (after which they were named, in the German).  Slow, at first, until
you threatened them.  THEN the battle would get intense!  (Not that little
ol' Roaches try to fight off a human...)

Whether this is fully accurate or not(I think that it is probably not the
best analogy), Kafer had a "strategy" that had to be learned.  They rarely
broke out of this "strategy".  Now, it might be argued that Kafer aren't
"sentient" during the first few rounds of combat...

By the way, is 2300 AD supposed to be a limited portion of Traveller
history?  If so, does Traveller history officially mention and explain what
happened to the Kafer?

Maybe they could make a comeback?  "We need a few good aliens."  Instead,
the heavens are raining cats and dogs.  Maybe some aliens like the one in
the two "Species" movies?  ;)

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:26:57 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Thermal Imaging and IR

Jesse LaBranche wrote:

>>>with how things got brighter when I shined my flashlight with IR filter at
>>>something, but neither scope revealed HEAT, so I don't even know WHY you
>>>brought up IR when I mentioned thermal imaging.
>
>
>Steven Hudson wrote:
>>  Maybe I'm wrong here, but aren't both technologies detecting heat?
>>  Light-intensifiers, OTOH...
>
>    My understanding was that Thermal Imagery detected Thermal Radiation,
>while Infra-red detected variations in actual temperature... Of course I
>have
>no idea where I got this, so I don't have a way to check my "facts".

Right. There are two principle night-vision technologies: Thermal
imagers; and light-intensification units.

Light intensification units work by significantly amplifying the low-
level available light at night. This can be moonlight; starlight;
artificial light reflected of clouds; whatever. They tend to `whine' due
to the nature of the electronics used. They are typically configured to
give a monochrome (green) image.

Thermal imaging systems work by detecting infra-red radiation (heat
radiation) emitted from the targets. They are now sensitive enough to
pick up a human body; a smear of hot rubber from a car tyre on tarmac;
etc. All but the newest are cooled by gas; giving them a limited
operating time. The gas compressor emits a low, droning noise. They are
typically configured to give a grayscale image; although some units use
a false-colour map to give the `Hollywood special' pictures everyone
expects.

Individual weapon and personal night sights tend to be LI units; vehicle
mounted units and search-and-rescue gear tends to be TI.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:04:23 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Texas revolts

>        Law level, Cliff!  If the soldier gets 30, and the civvie gets 10,
>it means that in a textbook engagement, it takes one soldier to do the
>damage of 3 civvies.  Meaning the civvies go home sooner than the soldier
>does. =)

Hmm, you may be on to something there...  I couldn't help but laugh when
some silly show was on and some standardly armed Army soldiers faced down a
bunch of pistol-shooters at point black range who jumped into the back of a
deus and a half type truck...  The pistoleros did better than the same
number of Army soldiers.

What crap!  Up to 50 meters, if not more, I could drop EVERYONE, provided I
didn't get shot first.

- --Clif

>        In the RealWorld(tm) YMMV =)
>
>        --Michel
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
> Michel R. Vaillancourt
> misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
>
> Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
> "Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
> Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
> "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
> Into Traveller?  Check Out:
> "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 10:57:31
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: FF&S2 ISBN

At 11:11 AM 1/6/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Can someone tell me the ISBN of FF&S v2?

It doesn't seem to have one..

Doug

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 11:02:20
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Huh?

At 01:05 PM 1/6/99 -0500, you wrote:
>You call Texas taking up arms against the rest of the country so that they
>can enforce their secession a "peacetime police operation"?

It depends on the spin they put on it.. The Texas leadership can run to the
UN saying "Look at these hypocrites!  They supported Bosnia and Kosovo, and
even Eiteria, but when we want to peacefully sever ties, they attack us!
We reserve the right to defend ourselves!"  Then make sure that the BBC has
excellent support in covering every attack made by the US.  Watch world
opinion turn against the US aggression.  Watch several countries recognize
the Republic of Texas, especially after a few backroom deals concerning oil
are made.

Doug
dberry@hooked.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 11:10:51
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

At 09:50 AM 1/6/99 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>Aslan males would want to be seen fighting, to increase their chances of
>>being in the clan's Song of Heroes.
>
>Aslan might put more value on active sensors, then...and maybe on ships
>custom-tuning the precise frequency of their lasers, so that you can
>tell whose laser fire hits a given target. 

They might well consider passive locks to be a "lesser" victory, given the
code duello the Aslan live under.  I can see Aslan ships doing the samurai
declaration of honor as they cruise to engagement range.

This of course a cultural thing, and has little to do with their
evolutionary roots.  We are descended from shit-flinging primates, and have
developed an amazing variety of methods for combat etiquette.
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 18:00:32 +0100
From: Volker Greimann <greimann@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Aslan Ihatei

>Also, has anyone considered the possibility of compiling a Best of TML
>site/newsletter/document with the key topics of the year in summary (eg.
>deck orientation, micro-jumps, background music etc...). Just a thought.
Excellent idea!
Unfortunately, it needs somebody with :
a) loads of spare time on his hands
b) a complete archive of posts
c) an objective view of whats important and whats not
d) webspace.
So, do we have volunteers?
Volker
- ---
Volker A. Greimann, greimann@geocities.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:21:06 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Surveillance

>Bruce is absolutely right.  I haven't seen the Washington films, but did
>see Patriot Games.
>The footage in Patriot Games is legit, <snip> And the resolution isn't that
great, just as Bruce said,
>people's locations....

But in the movie the resolution WAS good enough that you could watch one of
the SAS slit the throat of a man.

Also, you COULD HAVE seen one of them get amorous with a woman, which was my
claim.

I thought the resolution was great!  Little wisps of hot vapor coming off of
their bodies as they hoofed it to the objective.
>
>And the outdoor stuff?  What we can do is incredible....
>
>Greg
>Security Officer
>HQtrs USMC
>
- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:26:43 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Tour a Real Fusion Reactor

On January 20th at noon there will be a tour, open to the public, of MIT's
Alcator C-Mod, a tokamak fusion experiment.

There are also several seminars on plasma physics, and magnetic containment
fusion.  All will be held in Cambridge Mass. from the 20th throughthe 22nd.
All are open to the public.

Email me privately at the address below for further details.  I will be on
the tour myself (again).


Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1367
***********************************

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Traveller-digest     Wednesday, January 6 1999     Volume 1998 : Number 1368



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: real-world railguns
Re: Weapons and Such 
Re: FF&S2 ISBN
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Emperial weapon laws
Re: American soldiers firing on citizens...
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: V & A Tactics (XXX S-word Used!!)
Magazine Capacities
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1361
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: style
Re: Texas revolts
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: Hot Button
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: real-world railguns
Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)
Re: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions
Re: Pluto's Secret and Mars (Rim War)
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:30:07 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: real-world railguns

Bruce Said;
>The is no political will to do that, and as we're finding by discussion
>on this list _everything_ is driven by politics (economics is only the
>politics of money)

One might say that politics is just the economics of government interaction.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 14:31:21 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Weapons and Such 

scharlto@ifsna.com writes:
>On High-Law worlds, these folks tend to keep their arsenal in the
>extrality
>zone of the Starport, I imagine.  But how many times has a character in
>your game smuggled an illegal weapon onto a high or medium law world 'just
>in case'.  And how many times did that weapon turn out to be needed?  In
>my
>experience as a player, GM and observer of others' games, this has
>happened
>quite often, and is also quite often the thing that saves the party from
>certain death.  The GM often expects this, and plans on using it as part
>of
>the adventure.  The players might get caught, or the players might face a
>foe that requires a weapon for an easy escape.

Rarely smuggled, never needed. But then, I played the majority of people
on that world as unarmed (or poorly armed) as well. 

I suspect this is a matter of group preference more than anything else. My
groups have never been fond of running combats, and so we tend to avoid
them - especially lethal ones. (Well, my groups once I graduated high
school!) I know of other groups where rolling a new character is a common
occurence - and I don't play with them because of that.

OTOH, my players used their wits, and thus couldn't be totally unarmed
short of a lobotomy.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:30:47 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: FF&S2 ISBN

>Can someone tell me the ISBN of FF&S v2?

ISBN  1-57828-422-8   
IG-1720

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:39:03 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

In a message dated 1/5/99 11:26:21 AM Pacific Standard Time,
brclif@digital.net writes:

<< 
 >WE ARE LIQUIDATING ALL TRAVELLER BOOKS, they're going FAST, and now is the
 LAST CHANCE to buy TRAVELLER EVER!!!
 
 When they say this, they mean THEIR Traveller books, right?
 
 T5 is in the works, right? >>

and I think this is violating some legal stuff with Marc...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:38:18 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

In a message dated 1/5/99 11:26:21 AM Pacific Standard Time,
brclif@digital.net writes:

<< 
 >WE ARE LIQUIDATING ALL TRAVELLER BOOKS, they're going FAST, and now is the
 LAST CHANCE to buy TRAVELLER EVER!!!
 
 When they say this, they mean THEIR Traveller books, right?
 
 T5 is in the works, right? >>

Correct, and from what I hear, IG's sale prices suck...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:40:04 -0600 (CST)
From: jhereg <jhereg@southwind.net>
Subject: Emperial weapon laws

> 
> Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:19:37 -0700
> From: scharlto@ifsna.com
> Subject: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)
> 
> OK, here we go.  This is NOT an attempt to start a flame war.  Sensible
> minds may disagree about many things in life.
snip
> 
> However, there are many worlds that strongly restrict weapons.  These
> worlds have bee unpopular with Travellers in my experience (high law levels
> are not only a problem for weapons-toters, they are also uncomfortable for
> everyone else).  The Imperium does not seem to take any direct position on
> private weapons ownership, but probably does not allow folks to carry
> around backpack nukes and meson weapons, and I imagine there are some
> rather stringent safeguards on FGMPs.
> 
> So, how does the Traveller Universe feel about these well-armed Travellers?
> On High-Law worlds, these folks tend to keep their arsenal in the extrality
> zone of the Starport, I imagine.  But how many times has a character in
> your game smuggled an illegal weapon onto a high or medium law world 'just
> in case'.  And how many times did that weapon turn out to be needed?  In my
> experience as a player, GM and observer of others' games, this has happened
> quite often, and is also quite often the thing that saves the party from
> certain death.  The GM often expects this, and plans on using it as part of
> the adventure.  The players might get caught, or the players might face a
> foe that requires a weapon for an easy escape.
	Our group normally gms in a round robin format, so we all run the
game at one point.  As background I setup a Marine who served 8 terms.
(Forced to serve the 8th and did 4 combat missions. He went to commando
school early in his career and served ~80% combat missions according to
the old lbb marine book.  We encountered a extreme law level world that
did not even allow knives.  We being players decided the evil GM was out
to get us without our weapons.  I found a WONDERFUL method of getting a
sword past customs in a LEGAL manner.  My marine general (ret) put on his
full dress uniform.  In our campaign the dress uniform for a marine calls
for a saber.  Walks to starport gate.  Guards into planet proper throw
fit.  BIG argument ensued.  The locals insisted he could not wear the
sword.   He insisted he HAD to wear the sword or not be in uniform.  He
pointed out military personnel were entitled to wear their uniforms on
planet.  Pointed out (somewhat wrong but... <g>) people do not use swords
as a weapon in this day and age.  After about 2 hrs the guards found
someone willing to make the exception.  Nothing happened that required the
sword, but it did make an interesting precedent and a good chance for some
roleplaying.  This works (in our campaign because of the following
rulings)
	1) Marine dress uniform includes a saber.
	2) Retired military personnel are still entitled to wear the
           uniform.
	3) Local governments prefer to not annoy the imperial government.

	We do not have major weapons restrictions.  As long as people keep
it on their ship or store it in a bonded locker they are allowed to have
most man portable weapons and armor.  The BIG problem can be acquiring the
weapons in a legitimate manner.  It takes a lot of pull to acquire high
explosives or plasma weapons.  We have had characters muster out with a
PGMP if they had a reason to use one in service.  Very few people have
been allowed to buy one.  Our rule of thumb is don't do anything stupid
and you don't get squished.  Otherwise the Emperor will get annoyed.  

> 
> So - in the Traveller Universe, are there Imperium-wide organizations like
> Handgun Control out there trying to get Imperial laws restricting weapons?
> Is there a social stigma for those who own weapons, or carry weapons
> openly.  Does the Imperial media portray weapons as inherently good,
> inherently evil or merely as tools?  Are there any Imperium-wide weapons
> manufacturers (personal weapons), or are these generally built by local
> companies (using Imperial standard designs for military contracts).  Does
> the Imperium exercise exclusive control of FGMPs and PGMPSs?  Which
> immediatey begs the question Is there a thriving black market in PGMPs and
> FGMPs?  And finally, what sort of restrictions are there on explosives?
> Not only bombs and hand grenades, but HEAP rounds for hand-held weapons;
> these are by definition also explosives.\
snip
> Steven Charlton

							Andy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:35:52 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: American soldiers firing on citizens...

>At 11:57 AM 1/3/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>Yeah, they call such activity "domestic terrorism" these days...
>>
>>And you know what happens to terrorists... double-tap to the no-reflex
>>zone...
>
>Which is why Timothy McVeigh and his compatriot,

Yeah, I've got my own opinions about all that...

> along with the World Trade
>center folks are in Federal Prisons today.
>
I don't know the story on those guys, but I'll bet they didn't try to shoot
it out with the Feds like an Army of Texans with guns would(which is the
context of my statement).

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:43:49 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

In a message dated 1/5/99 11:48:37 AM Pacific Standard Time, pbrenton@mit.edu
writes:

<< I would suggest that we all go out and become middle school teachers, >>

that's what I'm going to school for, but it's a hard sell what with the
competition with sports, electronics, girls/boys (gaming isn't "cool" when
you're looking to score...), etc. When I get a job, I'll lobby my principal to
start a gaming club. At least I won't have to worry about parents screaming
about demon worship like they did with D+D...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:42:16 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: V & A Tactics (XXX S-word Used!!)

>but I don't know of any battle in
>World War II where the opposite sides stood up, screamed, waved their arms
>and flung feces at each other, which is how chimps make war.

Which is why when grenades are being chucked on the guy gets on the radio he
says, "We're in a world of shit," "...the shit is coming down," or "we're in
shit-storm."

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:47:22 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Magazine Capacities

>If you need 30 rounds to defend yourself..

It is difficult to get the enemy to line up so you can take out more than
one with a single shot.
>
>BTW:  In the Army I served in, my rifle was locked behind two heavy doors,
>could only be issued to me on an order from an officer, and any live ammo
>had to be accounted for to every last piece.  I once was grilled for two
>hours because a single round of 5.56mm had been found under my bunk (never
>mind that my weapon was a 7.62mm.)  There is a world of difference between
>the weapons policies of the armed Forces and being a civilian weapons
owner.


Yeah, but on the shooting range, at any time, you could have turned and shot
your fellow soldiers like ducks in a row.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:55:32 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1361

In a message dated 1/5/99 3:05:52 PM Pacific Standard Time,
aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au writes:

<< Of course, I doubt they allowed *that* defence at Nuremburg, which was about
 legal-seeming revenge more than "justice". (Not that most of the bastards didn't
 deserve to hang, but why be legalistic about it if you can't make it stick
 without making up and bending the "rules" as you go along).
  >>

that's why I never liked the extra-national "crimes against humanity" concept.
I would have preferred that the allies held the criminals until the Germans
got a democratic government and legal system going, and then turned the
criminals over for the Germans to try for murder. I would have been annoyed
however, if they were aquitted...

Ob Traveller: hmm...the local/Imperial crimes thread?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:58:11 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

In a message dated 1/5/99 3:29:00 PM Pacific Standard Time,
AFBetts@salcom.co.nz writes:

<< Hmmm, sounds good to me. I wonder what the Vargr battlecry would be, some
 sort of howl?
  >>

How about 

"Kibbles and bits. Kibbles and bits. I gotta get me some kibbles and bits!"?

(an amusing American TV dog food commercial to those who are going "what?")

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:58:59 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: style

I agree.  T5 should look more like Star Wars: Revised & Expanded, Alternity,
and Trinity/Aeon than the Traveller Book if it's to have any hope of being a
competitor to such.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:58:54 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Texas revolts

I think Texas would get stepped on if it tried to secede alone.  World opinion
be damned.  Like it matters to most of us, anyways.   Too many Texans would be
loyal to the union IMO.  There might be a large portion that would be loyal
their state, but Texans aren't any more monolithic than any other states
citizens.  

As far as the nukes, it wouldn't be likely IMO, nor would it be needed.   To
answer the other guy about the capabilities of teh guard an air guard, they
are good (better than most countries) but not as good as the actives.  I know
for a fact that MBTs and such are almost entirely rebuilds and older units
transferred from the active/regular componets to the reserve/guard units.  I
imagine it would be much the same.  Just wait till F22s are on active.  F15Cs
are pretty pitiful against an F22... course most current planes are.   I doubt
air superiority would be a problem for union forces.  Now i'm envisioning an
amphibious landing by the 1st and 2nd Marine Divisions.   Now i'm imagining
the reprecussions (loss of aid, et al) to countries that supported Texas.

OB Trav, the same thing applies to a memberworld of the Imperium.   Any world
(or even cultural region) would've had a fair percantage of citizens that
would've held onto their oaths of fealty and their loyalty to the Imperium and
Emperor.   It would be much better for them when the Imperium squashed the
revolt.  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 11:59:17
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

At 01:40 PM 1/6/99 -0500, you wrote:

>How about some kind of beam that made a "speaker" out of all of the solids
>of the ship, so that everyone on the ship would hear the howl surrounding
>them?  Like a backwards Laser microphone?  Instead of reading the vibrations
>of a solid to "listen" it could MAKE vibrations in a solid to "speak"...

If you can do that, why not just deafen every sentient in the room?

>Why does technological evolution have to occur in parallels?  Couldn't the
>Vargr have non-game-imbalancing technologies that the humanoids don't yet
>understand?  Only if your players were a bunch of Vargr "on the inside"
>would you have to come up with some kind of explanation for the technology.

In his excellent comic book "Buck Godot: Zap Gun for Hire", Phil Foglio has
two of the characters attacked by a ninja-like alien.  Grabbing Par, the
alien hisses "you will reveal the location of the Winslow, or I will FLOSS
HIS TEETH!"  to the general merriment of the victims.  As they laugh their
appendages off, the ninja sulks away muttering "well, that's a really big
threat where I come from."  You can't expect an alien attack to work on a
human.  You can't even translate cultural threats well.  For example, if
you see a woman dressed all in white wearing a veil, what do you think?  If
you are from a western culture, you probably think "she's a bride, how
nice."  If you are from many Asian cultures, you think "how sad, a close
family member has died and she's going to the funeral."

>Military textbooks had the common attack stategy of communist forces down to
> a diagram(punch a hole through the center of the perimeter and fight your
>way out while another part of your force flanks, I believe it was).  Knowing
>the strategy didn't make them any less of a threat.

The Soviet battle doctrine was based on the German blitzkrieg which was
based on successful cavalry attacks from the Napoleonic Era.  It was more
of attack everywhere until you achieve breakthrough.  At that point, focus
all your reserves on that spot and exploit it.

>Remember "Maverick" in "Top Gun"?  Goddess Kelly McGillis tried to teach him
>to follow NATO strategy but he, instead, lived up to his name.  He was just
>an individual playing the cowboy.  The majority follows the standard
>strategy.

You'd probably get a better reaction if you didn't reference really awful
movies.. I've known real Navy pilots who tell me that "Maverick" not only
would never have gotten an invite to Fightertown, but would have been
pulled from flight status within a month of reporting.  Real pilots are
professionals.

>>For example, a personal fight between two humans might be resolved in a
>>fashion much like our ancestors, alot of "chest beating" and yelling in an
>>attempt to drive off the opponent. However, the battlefields of Europe in
>>WWII were very different situations.
>
>The thuds and booms of artillery and tank rounds makes for good
>chest-beating and suppressed forces often yelled at each other.

The difference is of course that 155mm HE shells can blow you into a fine
red mist.  Getting into someone's face and puffing up your chest cannot.  

>A classic scene is the V.C. on the wire in "Apocalypse Now".  "G.I.,
>Fuc-BOOM!"

Once again, quoting the media isn't the best bet.  I was trained to shut up
and stay quiet, to the point where I let an "enemy" patrolman take a leak
on my back one night.  Despite my urge to move, or to leap up and beat the
crap out of this guy, I remembered the mission and tolerated it.  Never did
find out who did it...

>>Some elements might be similar, but I doubt that the Vargr would act just
>>as dogs do.
>
>Some dogs are already smart.  Vargr would be much smarter dogs.

No, Vargr are a sentient race.  We are not simply smart apes, we've gone
far beyond that.  We have reactions that are tempered by intelligence,
since we do not simple react on instinct.  When my fight or flight reflex
is triggered, I have many more option than my primitive ancestors.

>How many are familiar with the Kafer in 2300 AD?  They basically acted like
>Roaches (after which they were named, in the German).  Slow, at first, until
>you threatened them.  THEN the battle would get intense!  (Not that little
>ol' Roaches try to fight off a human...)

Uh, no.  The Kafers were named for the perceived resemblance to roaches.
The Kafers were a race that was of generally low intelligence until they
were threatened, then an analog to adrenaline would boost their brain
functions to allow quick reactions.  Cockroaches are speedy little buggers
that are always alert.  (I know, I lived in San Jose's answer to Joe's
Apartment for a year.)

>Whether this is fully accurate or not(I think that it is probably not the
>best analogy), Kafer had a "strategy" that had to be learned.  They rarely
>broke out of this "strategy".  Now, it might be argued that Kafer aren't
>"sentient" during the first few rounds of combat...

Reread the "Invasion" supplement.  Some of the Kafer leadership tried
unorthodox tactics.

>By the way, is 2300 AD supposed to be a limited portion of Traveller
>history?  If so, does Traveller history officially mention and explain what
>happened to the Kafer?

2300AD was based off the Twilight: 2000 history and is not an official part
of the Traveller/Third Imperium universe.

>Maybe they could make a comeback?  "We need a few good aliens."  Instead,
>the heavens are raining cats and dogs.  Maybe some aliens like the one in
>the two "Species" movies?  ;)

Gack!  "Species"?!

Aslan and Vargr are cats and dogs only if you play them that way.  A better
analogy would be samurai and Sioux.  Bringing the Kafer into Traveller
might be fun, but difficult to do.

- --

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 15:01:15 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Hot Button

In a message dated 1/5/99 6:16:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, brclif@digital.net
writes:

<< And why would that be?  I thought we had freedom of speech, or am I wrong
in
 concluding that you seem to be saying it means REAL trouble, and not just
 ascii flames?
 
 --Clif >>

oh no; please not again...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 15:07:26 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

In a message dated 1/5/99 8:38:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, semo@pil.net
writes:

<< When I was reading excerpts from that book by Desmond Morris a little while
 ago I was fascinated by how _subtley_ our behavior was related to that of
 our ancestors. My apologies that I can't remember the name of the book, it's
 quite popular though.
  >>

My guess: The Naked Ape

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:12:41 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: real-world railguns

>>Probably the most "operational" one is 6m long, designed to fit into
a
>>main battle tank turret.
>>The power supply ( an MHD ) is mounted on  two seperate tracked
>>vehicles, one for the MHD, the other a bank of capacitors.
>
>I'm not aware of any railguns currently outside of laboratories or
test
>benches, and I'd like to see a citation...there are artists
conceptions and
>Army wouldn't-it-be-nice-if sketches, but such things really are
still
>at the viewgraph stage.

I haven't been able to find the article, but my reference was in a
1986 or 1987 (yes, that long ago) edition of International Defense
Review. It showed two photographs of the weapon system, one of the two
support vehicles, the other of the gun in action, and a simple block
diagram of it's parts. This system was discussed as part of an article
on NATO's Air/Land Battle 2000 doctrine.

It's possible it may have been a "spoof" but the IDR people were
usually pretty good at detecting that sort of thing.

A current reference after a quick web search  shows a 30mm x 2.2m
version at http://www.utexas.edu/research/cem/rd/rd02/02.html
It says "Weighing a modest 385lb, this gun can be breech supported in
a tactical configuration".

It's possible this is the developers being optimistic, and the photo
on this site is of a laboratory version, but if that was the best they
had, I'd be surprised to find it on a public web site, especially
since the lab claims to have been working on the devices since 1979.

>>Rail-guns need much less
>>power than destructive lasers, which have also been seriously
proposed
>>as orbital weapons.
>
>Sort-of true, but the lasers that are proposed for orbital use these
days
>are generally chemical lasers (which have better efficiencies and use
>storeable fuel rather than electrical energy), and are operating at
power
>levels appropriate for thin-skinned missiles, not anti-tank.

Like MIRACL ?

I was under the impression that these lasers used chemicals to
generate the power
that was then used to power the laser, not directly generate the laser
from chemical fuel.

If that's the case, then the power could be used to power a rail gun
instead, surely ?

>>Most planning involves mounting such things deep in the Moon , or in
>>re-positioned asteroids, with built-in refineries to produce ammo.
>
>Planning in the sense of "science fiction", not "current/plausible
military
>planning".

Planning in the sense of studies actually funded by the US DoD.

True, I read of it in an article by Jerry Pournelle (or was it Harry
Stein, I'd have to dig up the magazine from the archives) in a 1981
science fiction magazine,  but he had the reference to the actual
study.

You can call it science fiction if you like, but when Kennedy made his
speech about putting men on the moon, that was also "science fiction"
at the time. It didn't prevent the existence of serious research on
the subject.

However, I shouldnl't have said "current" planning, I've no idea  what
they are currently planning.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 15:22:56 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)

Excellent post!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 15:26:51 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions

In a message dated 1/6/99 9:31:24 AM Pacific Standard Time,
frankie@mundens.gen.nz writes:

<< Or has no-one in the game industry got the guts to stand up to idiots >>

not when the "idiots" sign your paycheck. 

I remember the pre-corporate "good old days" of mom and pop game companies
running out of the garage, and a lot of garbage came from them too... You need
skill and cooperation from BOTH the bean counters and the creatives to run a
company. 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 15:31:21 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Pluto's Secret and Mars (Rim War)

I was going over the profile of the Terran Star System from Rats& Cats w/ all
this discussion in mind and thought i'd quote the passage w/ Pluto...

"Until our systems recapture, a major Imperial Navy base and research lab
stood in orbit above Pluto.  Traffic to and from these facilities were heavy,
even though civilian travel was prohibited within a 1 AU radius.  No
explanation for this restriction was ever given, but our Solomani Navy seems
to have taken an equal interest in Pluto, and we have kept the restriction in
force."   

There are Ancients sites at Venus and Titan.  I don't think one on Pluto is
out of the question, especially if there's something weird and non Ancient
related there.  The Ancients would have wanted to study it too.  So definately
i'm going to use the Ancients *And* Skunkworks type r&d base.  Such a facility
would need alot of traffic, wouldn't it?  Here's the UWP for Pluto, as of
1121, btw.

9		Pluto	 F10046C-F		Nv Re

This goes into another thing.  In the description for Mars, it says the Rim
War battle ended in teh destruction of the [Solomani] naval base at Deimos,
"moon and all."  What does the Imperium have that could pulverize an entire
moon?  Near C rock?  Antimatter weapon?  Something they found at Pluto?  : )
(Pluto would've almost certainly been taken, first, no?)   Also, the larger
Martian moon, Phobos, isn't even  mentioned in the Extended System.  Where did
it go?  I've read it's been observed to be in a slowly decaying orbit?  Did it
crash onto Mars?  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 15:35:01 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

>You'd probably get a better reaction if you didn't reference really awful
>movies.. I've known real Navy pilots who tell me that "Maverick" not only
>would never have gotten an invite to Fightertown, but would have been
>pulled from flight status within a month of reporting.  Real pilots are
>professionals.
>

Which was EXACTLY my point, if your perceptive skills had been keen enough
to see through the reference to "Top Gun" long enough to get to the meat
without being biased by said reference.

I was in an Air Cav Squadron.  For the most part military pilots ARE more
professional than Tom Cruise, but they ALSO hotdog it every now and then.

Take the Marine pilots who knocked down that gondola in Italy(was it?).  The
was an episode of hotdogging that got caught.  How much doesn't get caught?
Military people can go on and on about how professional they are, but if
they were all so professional, they wouldn't have OER's and EER's.
(evalutation reports)

>>>For example, a personal fight between two humans might be resolved in a
>>>fashion much like our ancestors, alot of "chest beating" and yelling in
an
>>>attempt to drive off the opponent. However, the battlefields of Europe in
>>>WWII were very different situations.
>>
>>The thuds and booms of artillery and tank rounds makes for good
>>chest-beating and suppressed forces often yelled at each other.
>
>The difference is of course that 155mm HE shells can blow you into a fine
>red mist.  Getting into someone's face and puffing up your chest cannot.
>
>>A classic scene is the V.C. on the wire in "Apocalypse Now".  "G.I.,
>>Fuc-BOOM!"
>
>Once again, quoting the media isn't the best bet.  I was trained to shut up
>and stay quiet, to the point where I let an "enemy" patrolman take a leak
>on my back one night.

Once again, you didn't see through the reference.  The scene I referred to
had a V.C. yelling, "G.I., F--- You!" repeatedly.  The American who M-79'ed
his ass was a mellow, quiet sort.  Besides, I wasn't citing it as support,
just as a portrayal.

>  Despite my urge to move, or to leap up and beat the
>crap out of this guy, I remembered the mission and tolerated it.  Never did
>find out who did it...

LOL!  So YOU were the guy I pissed on?  Were you at JRTC in Ft. Chaffee, AR?
>
>>>Some elements might be similar, but I doubt that the Vargr would act just
>>>as dogs do.
>>
>>Some dogs are already smart.  Vargr would be much smarter dogs.
>
>No, Vargr are a sentient race.  We are not simply smart apes, we've gone
>far beyond that.  We have reactions that are tempered by intelligence,
>since we do not simple react on instinct.

Many animals don't simply react on instinct.  It has been sufficiently
demonstrated that animals reason and feel emotion.  The only difference is
that there is a language barrier, so many I.Q. points, and we have gotten a
better education.  How many I.Q. points before you become "sentient"?  Are
mentally handicapped people NOT sentient?  This is all just so much human
vanity.  Thinking themselves so much wiser, they named themselves "Homo
Sapiens Sapiens", "Wise, wise man."  Look around.  We aren't so wise.  We
don't even LIKE wisdom.  If we did Proverbs would be a best seller and
Wisdom Literature would sell movies, not sex and violence.

> When my fight or flight reflex
>is triggered, I have many more option than my primitive ancestors.

Because you have an opposable thumb?
>
>>How many are familiar with the Kafer in 2300 AD?  They basically acted
like
>>Roaches (after which they were named, in the German).  Slow, at first,
until
>>you threatened them.  THEN the battle would get intense!  (Not that little
>>ol' Roaches try to fight off a human...)
>
>Uh, no.  The Kafers were named for the perceived resemblance to roaches.
>The Kafers were a race that was of generally low intelligence until they
>were threatened, then an analog to adrenaline would boost their brain
>functions to allow quick reactions.  Cockroaches are speedy little buggers
>that are always alert.  (I know, I lived in San Jose's answer to Joe's
>Apartment for a year.)

I live in Florida.  Ever hear of Palmetto Bugs?  By the way, I don't really
see what you contradicted, as I HAVE KNOWN for some time what you reiterated
with your comments about Kafers.  My knowledge is what motivated my post.
>
>>Whether this is fully accurate or not(I think that it is probably not the
>>best analogy), Kafer had a "strategy" that had to be learned.  They rarely
>>broke out of this "strategy".  Now, it might be argued that Kafer aren't
>>"sentient" during the first few rounds of combat...
>
>Reread the "Invasion" supplement.  Some of the Kafer leadership tried
>unorthodox tactics.

Don't have the book, anymore.  Anyway, yes, "unorthodox."  That means they
had an orthodox strategy in combat.
>
>>By the way, is 2300 AD supposed to be a limited portion of Traveller
>>history?  If so, does Traveller history officially mention and explain
what
>>happened to the Kafer?
>
>2300AD was based off the Twilight: 2000 history and is not an official part
>of the Traveller/Third Imperium universe.
>
>>Maybe they could make a comeback?  "We need a few good aliens."  Instead,
>>the heavens are raining cats and dogs.  Maybe some aliens like the one in
>>the two "Species" movies?  ;)
>
>Gack!  "Species"?!
>
>Aslan and Vargr are cats and dogs only if you play them that way.  A better
>analogy would be samurai and Sioux.

Then maybe someone should rework the two races' strategies, 'cause it would
seem to me that humans would be the ones to emply samurai and Sioux
strategies, what with books like Miyamoto Musashi's "the Book of Five Rings"
still being available...

>  Bringing the Kafer into Traveller
>might be fun, but difficult to do.
>
- --Clif

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1368
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, January 6 1999     Volume 1998 : Number 1369



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

TNE (was Mark Miller's Traveller 4)
Re: Weapons and Such
Re: real-world railguns
re: Aslan & Vargr tactics
Re: GT tech levels (was Re: Ziru Sirka Scout/Exploration VesselRequest)
Re: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions
Re: Magazine Capacities
Publishing (was re: Behind the Claw: Errata?..)
Re: Pluto's Secret and Mars (Rim War)
Re: Weapons and Such 
Re: real-world railguns
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: style
Re: Publishing (was re: Behind the Claw: Errata?..)
Re: Calendars
Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 14:48:23 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: TNE (was Mark Miller's Traveller 4)

On 01/06/99 at 09:28 AM,  dberry@hooked.net said:

>>Twilight 2000 V2.2 was Twilight 2000 V2.0 modified to be compatible
>>with TNE.
>>
>>So TNE definitely did _not_ come from Twilight 2000

>IIRC, T2K second edition came first, then the same system was used
>for Cadillacs and Dinosaurs, Dark Conspiracy, and finally TNE.  

With slight tweaks for each iteration.

>I clearly remember being excited that I could use my DC and T2K books
>with Traveller.

I remember being excited about that too. 

>T2K v.2.2 brought T2K in line with the d20 system, but the base game
>mechanic was well established.

Actually, Tw2K v2.2 tweaked the house system again, based on what
I've been told.  Some of the combat rules from TNE got changed
*slightly* in v2.2 of Tw2K.

Like all systems, <grin>, I have problems with the GDW house system,
but the basic ideas behind mechanics did seem solid to me.

Problems I had:

    1.  The task system *played* too complicated for me:  Add two
        numbers, multiply or divide the total and compare to the
        roll of a d20 *looks* beautiful, but for me, played ugly.
        Call me math impaired, but I prefer to avoid multiplying or
        dividing *during* task resolution if I can.  Multiplying and
        dividing (and raising to powers) should be done before or
        after game play.  Adding or subtracting is OK.
        
        I would have liked, something where you added to or
        subtracted from the Asset (Target Number in T4 terms) to
        represent the Task difficulty.  For example:  Easy +6;
        Routine +3; Difficult 0; Formidable -3; Staggering -6;
        Hopeless -9.
        
    2.  Attributes having so much more influence on tasks than skill
        levels.  I feel MT (and CT, though its dm's) gave the
        characteristic too little weight and TNE and T4 gave it too
        much at the top end and too little at the bottom end of the
        scale.
        
        Hard to fix if you retain the traditional Traveller 2 to 12
        (+2 or 3 for career improvements) spread for Attributes.  If
        we could reduce that spread let's say use 2+(2d6/2) up, to
        get a spread of 3 to 8 (+ no more than 2 for career
        improvement), it would help a lot, IMO, and still give
        plenty of spread for diversity.  And of course, you might
        want to increase the *number* of skill levels a character
        gets a little, but just a little.

    3.  For a lot of reasons, I would *prefer* using d6's and having
        a pseudo-normal distribution to using a d20 and having a
        uniform distribution.  BTW, I *do* think the 1d20 combined
        with the multiply/divide was a neat way of producing a
        curve-like result with a uniform distribution.
        
        I think using 3d6 and a fixed +/- 3 step for the tasks would
        give similar results.  It would also let us use the more
        common d6's *and* have a scale that is pretty much identical
        to the GURPS scale.
        
    4.  The personal wound/injury/damage scale/procedure.  It was
        too complicated in some ways and too soft on wounds, IMO,
        lots of folks disagree with me, of course.
        
        The reduction of Attributes, like in T4, *is* a good way of
        modeling wound/injuries, in that it makes it harder to
        accomplish future tasks, and I'd like a Wound Level System
        similar to TNE's (actually I like how FUDGE does it better)
        for handling unconsciousness or death.

    5.  Why isn't there a unified combat procedure than goes from
        personal to vehicle to ship levels?  The pieces are there to
        do it, but the methods for handling things like penetration,
        DV and AV are different...not a lot, but enough to be a
        pain...IMO.  
        
        Were I doing it, I'd probably rescale FFS to match the
        numbers from GRUPS vehicles and use the GURPS scales from
        personal all the way up to starship combat.  Yes, there
        would be some *big* numbers for AV and DV of a Tigress, but
        that's better, IMO, than the complication of multiple
        scales.
        
IAC, we've argued these issues too many times to count, so we
probably shouldn't get into another argument about it now.  ;->


Eris        
 
 ps.  Congrats Doug on the 49'er win Sunday.  There was talk Monday
of an unspecified "bad call" the Refs made that "gave the game to
the 9'ers"...gee, I thought I saw the *whole* game didn't see
anything.  I thought it was a good game and that the better team
(that day) won. Good luck with Atlanta!

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 15:02:49 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Weapons and Such

On 01/06/99 at 09:19 AM,  scharlto@ifsna.com said:

>However, there are many worlds that strongly restrict weapons.  These
>worlds have bee unpopular with Travellers in my experience (high law
>levels are not only a problem for weapons-toters, they are also
>uncomfortable for everyone else).  The Imperium does not seem to take
>any direct position on private weapons ownership, but probably does
>not allow folks to carry around backpack nukes and meson weapons, and
>I imagine there are some rather stringent safeguards on FGMPs.

The players in my PBEM are struggling with the firearm restrictions
on a planet at the moment.  All firearms off Starport property are
highly regulated, kept in designated armories, checked out to ranges
or for set periods of time for hunting, and tagged with tracking
devices.  A character could get 5 to 10 years for uncontrolled
possession of a firearm and 2 to 5 for *any* concealed weapon.  So
far, they are obeying the laws, but I can tell they feel somewhat
uncomfortable not "packing"...and as there have been several murders
involved in the plot so far, I can understand it.  ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:05:53 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: real-world railguns

>>>[picture of operational railgun[
>I haven't been able to find the article, but my reference was in a
>1986 or 1987 (yes, that long ago) edition of International Defense
>Review. It showed two photographs of the weapon system, one of the two
>support vehicles, the other of the gun in action, and a simple block
>diagram of it's parts. This system was discussed as part of an article
>on NATO's Air/Land Battle 2000 doctrine.

I would suspect an artists's conception and/or mock-up. (After all, how do
you tell from a picture if a railgun is firing or not, since there's no
smoke or muzzle flash...) I could be wrong, though.

>>[chemical lasers]
>Like MIRACL ?
>I was under the impression that these lasers used chemicals to
>generate the power
>that was then used to power the laser, not directly generate the laser
>from chemical fuel.

No, chemical lasers burn fuels together in such a way that the reaction
product ends up in an excited state, which then lases before it has time to
drop into a non-excited state. No electricity involved, which is part of why
they're tempting for aircraft/space applications.

>>>Most planning involves mounting such things deep in the Moon , or in
>>>re-positioned asteroids, with built-in refineries to produce ammo.
>Planning in the sense of studies actually funded by the US DoD.
>True, I read of it in an article by Jerry Pournelle (or was it Harry
>Stein, I'd have to dig up the magazine from the archives) in a 1981
>science fiction magazine,  but he had the reference to the actual
>study.

>You can call it science fiction if you like, but when Kennedy made his
>speech about putting men on the moon, that was also "science fiction"
>at the time. It didn't prevent the existence of serious research on
>the subject.

I would be astonished if there's a real DoD study that discusses (at anything
other than the "someday, it would be nice if...") relocated asteroids as
bases for self-sustaining railguns. Also annoyed. When Kennedy talked about
landing on the moon, it was something that was plausible with available 
technology within the next decade. Relocating asteroids to Earth orbit 
is not, by many decades. (And a US with the lift capability and technology
necessary to do this could carry up a heck of a lot of conventional ammo
without going to the bother of shipping asteroids...)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:10:14 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Aslan & Vargr tactics

Dave Berry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
They might well consider passive locks to be a "lesser" victory, given the
code duello the Aslan live under.  I can see Aslan ships doing the samurai
declaration of honor as they cruise to engagement range.

This of course a cultural thing, and has little to do with their
evolutionary roots.  We are descended from shit-flinging primates, and have
developed an amazing variety of methods for combat etiquette.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Reminds me of the Kzinti from Star Fleet Battles.

It seems the Kzinti were a bunch of big space-kitties, divided into clans.
They spent most of their time having innumerable civil wars with each
other. This caused a fascinating side effect: their starships were optimized
to fight other Kzinti starships. 

Thus when they first tangled with other interstellar states, their starships
came off badly by comparison. Simply put, there were weapons and
tactics the Kzinti ship designers never allowed for. Their standard
cruiser designs were good enough to take on the (similar) cruisers
of the next clan over, that was good enough - especially as actually
shooting at each other was probably a highly ritualized endeavor.

Imagine an Aslan cruiser making first contact with a human warship.
If the Aslan ship was designed for ritualized clan warfare, it might
have powerful active sensors, no stealth, many small craft (so
individual Aslan could attain honor as fighter pilots), perhaps heavy
armor and light weapons (the objective is to show your skill and
courage superiority, not to kill the guys who might be your next
set of brothers-in-law). It might also have no defenses against certain
"dishonorable" weapons...Meson Guns maybe?

Then you have the human ship, designed for a one-shot-one-kill high
threat environment. Stealth, extensive passive sensors, killer spinal
mount heavy weapon, probably light armor (if they saw you you were
dead anyway). Different tools for different jobs.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 22:06:53 +0100
From: Jesus <324064@cienz.unizar.es>
Subject: Re: GT tech levels (was Re: Ziru Sirka Scout/Exploration VesselRequest)

James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain escribi:

> At 09:41 6-1-99 -0600, Jason Kemp wrote:
> >1)  The vessel(s) should be of TL11 (that's Traveller, not GURPS.  I
> >don't have my GT book with me to translate.  My apologies.)
>
> I don't have the GT books yet - could somebody post the tech-level
> equivalents for me, please?
>
> James

Traveller     GURPS
Tech Level Tech Level
0                     1-3
1                     4
2                     5
3                     5
4                     5
5                     6
6                     6
7                     7
8                     8
9                     9
10                   9
11                   9
12                 10
13                 10
14                 11
15                 12
16                 13


- --
- -Jesus

     The Truth may be out there,
     but lies are inside your head.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 22:22:27 +0100
From: Jesus <324064@cienz.unizar.es>
Subject: Re: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions

"Christopher B. Thrash" escribi:

> > Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 00:29:00 +0100
> > From: Jesus <324064@cienz.unizar.es>
> > Subject: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions
> >
> > Some questions:
> >
> > Are they changes in the Classic Canon or simply a lot of errata?
> > If they are errata, anybody has the list of errata of BH?
>
> There was a screw-up in email between MJ Dougherty and Neil Frier in
> Britain and Loren Wiseman in Austin during the (very tight) production of
> BtC, with the result that much of what you see is essentially a first
> draft, without extensive error checking.
>

Thanks, I needed to know it


>
> SJ Games maintains an official errata page, at:
>
> http://www.sjgames.com/errata/gurps/traveller-behind-the-claw.html
>
> but there isn't a lot listed there yet. I don't know if there are more
> errata working their way through the system or not.
>

I have problems with my ISP, could you send me the page by private e-mail?


>
> > What do you think of the problems to trade between Darrian, Sword
> > Worlds, and Imperial Frontiers? My players will play with a FarTrader
> > with this idea.
> >
>
> Languages, customs, Customs, and psychology -- those are your big problems.
>  Make sure your characters have the right set of social and professional
> skills to wend their way through all the attendant red tape.
>

Yes, the captain has a lot of high-level social skills, his main problem is the
crew, they seems a monster Circus :)
I thought of the political problems, in my campaigns Customs and Bureaucracy
are mandatory since the first game in Alell.

>
> If you feel like it, you can also make different industrial standards a
> hurdle to cross-border trade (e.g., the Zhodani will not use 110/220vAC
> current at 60 Hz, or metric measurements, for their industrial machinery).
>

I like the idea, they plan to trade industrial products of the Sword Worlds to
the Darrian because there is no Darrian planet with In Trade Clasification

>

- --
- -Jesus

     The Truth may be out there,
     but lies are inside your head.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:23:04 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Magazine Capacities

> Yeah, but on the shooting range, at any time, you could have turned and shot
> your fellow soldiers like ducks in a row.

You know I thought of that (the concept, not doing it) when I was at good ol
Marine Corps Recruit Depot.   When we were on the firing line, I noticed that
quite a few of the line PMIs had sidearms.  : )  The moment your muzzle
awareness goes hideously wrong enough that u're sighting in on someone on the
firing line (much less the anyone behind the line), my bet is there's a 9mm
slug or 2 in you.  You'd be extremely lucky to get more than one pull of the
trigger off before getting shot or appropriately manhandled.  At least, that's
MCRD.   Since boot camp, excepting the pistol range (duh), usually only the
ammo techs have sidearms IIRC.

Never been on an Army range (well I was, but we were using it on our own).


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:37:46 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Publishing (was re: Behind the Claw: Errata?..)

Frank Pitt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Isn't anyone in the RPG industry capable of telling dick-head
accountants and managers that it will be finished when it's finished,
and that they _won't_ be allowing the company to release the product
until it's properly tested ?

<snip>

Firstly, how can a game company stick to a ridiculously tight release
schedule, when there is no need for such a schedule in the first
place, and secondly, how can any professional (and I'll admit I'm
being "nice" by including game designers/writers as "professionals" )
allow a product to be released with their name on it that hasn't had
rudimentary checking ?

Or has no-one in the game industry got the guts to stand up to idiots?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I believe the problem is that most game companies don't own their
own professional-grade printing equipment.

Quality printing firms have production schedules. The better the firm, the
tighter the schedule. If you want your publication printed, you schedule
a date with the printers, telling them what you'll need - how many pages,
what kind of stock, what kind of colors, etc. This date is months in
advance, and you base the date you want on your professional opinion on 
how long it will take to get the book together - written, artwork, proofs, etc.
When the printing firm can actually work you in will change the date
even more.

Now, you could wait until you had the book done, proofread, all
up to snuff before you even set the date - but the book (and all the
production money you've invested) would then sit on a shelf for months
on end until the printing firm had an opening.

If time gets tight and you're behind schedule, you can miss your "date"
at the printers. They then have to break down your stock and setup
stuff and store it while they wait for you to get done. Their other jobs
may not be ready for them to work on yet, as the other publishers
are tight on deadlines too - so their machines sit idle, costing them
money. Money they will probably be charging you, in addition to what
you'll spend when you do get done and are ready to get it printed.
Miss your date by a day, you spend lots of money and wait another
big chunk of time before your product is printed and on the way to
the retail stores. Meanwhile, the interest on what you spent on this
project keeps accumulating.

When deadlines close in, something has to give. It's unfortunate that
product quality checking is so often first, but the alternative may be
no product at all. Granted, the company should take error-laden products
as a warning to allow more time for the next project - but it's a simple
fact that some books take longer to get together than others.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:39:01 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Pluto's Secret and Mars (Rim War)

>battle ended in teh destruction of the [Solomani] naval base at Deimos
>"moon and all."  What does the Imperium have that could pulverize an entire
>moon?  Near C rock?  Antimatter weapon?

The binding energy of Phobos is about 1.6e16 joules (this is from memory - 
I think gravitational binding energy goes as (m^2/r) and Earth's is about
2x10^32 joules.) That's probably more than the amount of antimatter the
Imperium could manufacture (and deploy efficiently) at TL15...but is only
about 16 tonnes travelling at 1000 km/s (55 BL hexes per turn, or 6 G for
4.6 hours.) So it doesn't even require a particularly relativistic missile - 
a big battlefleet could carry several hundred such missiles. The carrying
ship could do most of the acceleration before entering jump and emerge
at Mars' 100-d limit moving at 1000 km/s, drop the missiles (which 
adjust their course accordingly). The defence is to intercept these with ones
own big KKMs, so the rest of the fleet has to come in to provide PD fire to
protect the deimos-busters, or you keep lobbing them until Deimos runs out of
countermissiles.

Lesson: fixed installations in the Traveller universe are undefendable. 

Possibly Deimos - if it really was a major naval base - would have a 
really big maneuver drive and some maneuver capability to defend against this
attack (even a hundredth of a G would help with not being where the
attack expects you to be, since the attacker (if they're jumping in) is using
two-week-old positional data. In that case, the first task for the Imperium is
to destroy the maneuver drive.

(Other Lesson: it's not nice to fool with conservation of energy...)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 16:45:54 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Weapons and Such 

> The players in my PBEM are struggling with the firearm restrictions
> on a planet at the moment.  All firearms off Starport property are
> highly regulated, kept in designated armories, checked out to ranges
> or for set periods of time for hunting, and tagged with tracking
> devices.  A character could get 5 to 10 years for uncontrolled
> possession of a firearm and 2 to 5 for *any* concealed weapon.  So
> far, they are obeying the laws, but I can tell they feel somewhat
> uncomfortable not "packing"...and as there have been several murders
> involved in the plot so far, I can understand it.  ;->

There's always a way around things, y'know.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 15:51:11 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: real-world railguns

On 01/06/99 at 01:05 PM,  bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) said:

>>>>[picture of operational railgun]

Operational, in the sense of working experiments, perhaps, but not
in the sense of deployed with forces.

>>I haven't been able to find the article, but my reference was in a
>>1986 or 1987 (yes, that long ago) edition of International Defense
>>Review. It showed two photographs of the weapon system, one of the two
>>support vehicles, the other of the gun in action, and a simple block
>>diagram of it's parts. This system was discussed as part of an article
>>on NATO's Air/Land Battle 2000 doctrine.

I *think* there were experiments with pretty large rail-guns on the
Eglin Reservation during the mid to late 80's. Might have been
rumors, or disinformation, for all I really know.  

These experiments supposedly had something to do with SDI research,
but I think it's more likely to have been anti-armor or tactical air
research...actually probably all three.  ;-> I haven't heard about
any large-scale followups, though.

>I would suspect an artists's conception and/or mock-up. (After all,
>how do you tell from a picture if a railgun is firing or not, since
>there's no smoke or muzzle flash...) I could be wrong, though.

Dust, maybe, or simmer from air-shock?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:56:39 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

sethkimmel said:

>that's what I'm going to school for, but it's a hard sell what with the
>competition with sports, electronics, girls/boys (gaming isn't "cool" when
>you're looking to score...), etc. When I get a job, I'll lobby my principal
to
>start a gaming club. At least I won't have to worry about parents screaming
>about demon worship like they did with D+D...


Hey, at the high school I went to (not all that long ago) we weren't even
allowed to have a wargaming club. We could still play RPGs or wargames
though.

It had nothing to do with the irrational cry of "satanism" (which was a hell
of alot less influential, at least here on the East Coast, than many folks
think, in fact I only lost one gamer in my youth at the height of the
satanism scare), it had more to do with the equally irrational cry of
"teenage suicide".

I don't know how many younger folks are out there on this list (I just
turned 23 myself), but the next generation of gamers are not the young
teenagers, they're the older teens and the early twenty-somethings. All of
my peers are in this age group, and I've never, ever had a problem
converting someone, male or female, hip or not, to roleplaying.

Of course, this is all just personal observation. It may be based on
personal charisma or something else... However, there are _plenty_ of
roleplayers out there. One of the things that people have to realize,
however, is that AD&D and White Wolf's WoD, being the most popular, are most
people's entry into the gaming world. As long as we have the folks (and it
happens on this list and in GURPS circles _plenty_) who feel the need to
point out how stupid and moronic these games (and the people who play them)
are... as hobbyists, we'll be killing ourselves.

As long as there are folks who down Magic (and other CCGs), AD&D and WoD and
their players, the hobby will remain completely divided. The hobby will have
no growth potential. People have to learn to accept that the hobby has
changed, is changing, and will continue to change.

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:02:56 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: style

In a message dated 1/5/99 11:28:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, semo@pil.net
writes:

<< 
 There are a number of things in Trav that are hard to sell to younger
 players too, but I won't get too into detail, since I've gone there one too
 many times on this list. Suffice to say that winning over new players _will_
 make older players angry in one way or another.
 
 Keep in mind it's not always quality or completeness that counts though.
  >>
	Alas, Cap'n  you're probably right.    In pecuniam sic transit gloria mundi
				(Into money so passes the glory of the world)

	I suppose I liked the Traveller book so much since it was art light.   We'll
never see those days again I reckon.   I'll just totter slowly off into the
sunset, muttering "dang kids" .

		Dave "Dr Stodgicus" Nelson

			

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 16:07:21 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Publishing (was re: Behind the Claw: Errata?..)

On 01/06/99 at 04:37 PM,  "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu> said:

>Or has no-one in the game industry got the guts to stand up to
>idiots? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>I believe the problem is that most game companies don't own their own
>professional-grade printing equipment.

>Quality printing firms have production schedules. The better the
>firm, the tighter the schedule. If you want your publication printed,
>you schedule a date with the printers, telling them what you'll need
>- how many pages, what kind of stock, what kind of colors, etc. This
>date is months in advance, and you base the date you want on your
>professional opinion on  how long it will take to get the book
>together - written, artwork, proofs, etc. When the printing firm can
>actually work you in will change the date even more.

>Now, you could wait until you had the book done, proofread, all up to
>snuff before you even set the date - but the book (and all the
>production money you've invested) would then sit on a shelf for
>months on end until the printing firm had an opening.

Yep, that's how I understand it works, and that's why deadlines are
deadlines.

Of course, if we weren't talking about all those color plates and
fancy artwork that some of you seem to *require*....<grin>...

Personally, I think the LBB are *the* standard for game books, but
I'm an old fogey, so what do I know.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:11:43 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Calendars

In a message dated 1/6/99 7:10:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:

<< 
 > You know, "anno" might be a better choice; "ano" is a word in Spanish,
 > and it has nothing to do with "ao", the similar word for year....
 
 I'd figured the second n would get dropped. But given this new data,
 I'll keep the second n. :-) >>

	Perhaps  "annum" singular,  "anna" plural would do,  that's good correct
Latin    	anno  (as in Anno Domini  as in AD dating system) is the ablative
case ending which makes in mean  "in the year"

			Dave Nelson, PhD  (Latin teacher/Traveller junkie)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:33:07 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)

In a message dated 1/6/99 11:22:47 AM Eastern Standard Time,
scharlto@ifsna.com writes:

<<   The Imperium does not seem to take any direct position on
 private weapons ownership, but probably does not allow folks to carry
 around backpack nukes and meson weapons, and I imagine there are some
 rather stringent safeguards on FGMPs. >>

	In regard to  Imperial weapon restrictions, The "Rules of War"  prohibit the
use of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons,  that seems clear enough.
Otherwise it seems to be strictly local matter, with one big exception.  In at
least one version of the game (I think it was either MT Imperial Encyclopaedia
or a T4 book)  it says that NOBLES, including their entourages/bodyguards have
a right to bear arms.  I've taken that to mean that they are above planetary
restrictions. Commoners, on the other hand are bound by planetary law only.
One only has to look at our friend Dulinor to see just how far the Noble's
right to bear arms extends.	
	IIRC Gurps Traveller says that the Extra-territorial  Starport grounds
allow one to carry just about anything, as long as you don't use it.
	As to FGMP's  I've always ruled that these were in the governed by local law
level,  but since there are few very high tech planets, with very low law
level, and  with an indigenous Industrial base that could actually build the
weapons, they are really not very availible.  Additionally, since any merchant
or ex-scout can buy a Laser cannon for his ship that can destroy buildings,
powerplants, hospitals, dairy farms and hippy communes, the dangers of FGMPs
and explosives shrink a bit in comparison.

	Dave Nelson
	
	

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1369
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, January 6 1999     Volume 1998 : Number 1370



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: American soldiers firing on citizens...
Re: FF&S2 ISBN
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Surveillance
Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4
Re: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions
[OT] re: Hot Button
Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4
Re: Online RPG Sources
Re: Publishing (was re: Behind the Claw: Errata?..)
Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: Online RPG Sources
Re: Magazine Capacities
Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics 
Re: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions
Calendars---Call Me Doctor Moron
Online RPG Resources 
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: Pluto's Secret and Mars (Rim War)
Re: Pluto's Secret and Mars (Rim War)
Re: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions 
Skill Sets (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:37:36 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: American soldiers firing on citizens...

Hey guys - Traveller; OK, or please go E mail....

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:39:34 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: FF&S2 ISBN

In a message dated 1/6/99 1:13:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, HPJKimba@ihc.com
writes:

<< Can someone tell me the ISBN of FF&S v2?
 - Joseph >>
			
				1-57828-422-8

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:45:44 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

In a message dated 1/6/99 2:48:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, Sethkimmel@aol.com
writes:

<< 
 << I would suggest that we all go out and become middle school teachers, >>
  >>
	I'm a high school teacher, and these posts have really got me thinking about
trying to start a Science Fiction Club at school, and sneaking in a little
Traveller.
		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:03:25 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Surveillance

Greg Smith wrote:

>> All those glorious false color Hollywood SFX look great, but are
>> physically impossible.
>> 
>> Now..._outdoor_ IR scanning like that, perfectly doable; we do it today.
>> Most night vision systems also can use an IR illuminator. All the nifty
>> false color stuff requires is a reasonably fast signal processing
>> computer.
>> 
>
>Bruce is absolutely right.  I haven't seen the Washington films, but did
>see Patriot Games. 
>The footage in Patriot Games is legit, but remember that the scene is in
>the middle of a desert (cold) at night (cold) and the subjects (hot) are
>inside just GP medium tents.  In other words, no real barrier to the IR
>sat picture.  And the resolution isn't that great, just as Bruce said,
>people's locations....

There *is* a barrier to IR in that case - the atmosphere. The imagery is
supposed to be Thermal Imagery, from a satellite. The atmosphere *does*
have two wavelength windows for IR; but these work well at short
distances. Not through the whole thickness of the atmosphere. This is
one of the reasons that most short range air-to-air missiles are IR
guided; but long range ones are radar guided.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:59:05 +1300
From: "Anson Betts" <AFBetts@salcom.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4

>
>>I thought it was Twilight: 2000's rules set. My copy of 2300 looks
>nothing
>>like TNE.
>
>Twilight 2000 V2.2 was Twilight 2000 V2.0 modified to be compatible
>with TNE.
>
>So TNE definitely did _not_ come from Twilight 2000
>
Nope, but 2300 came from Twilight 2000  (Well, so far as in using the same
timeline) :P

Cheers,
 Anson.

Oook Oook

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:55:28 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions

Frank Pitt said:


><Rant>
>Great, so the Imperium Games disease hits Steve Jackson Games as well.


Not quite, more like the necessities of modern publishing have hit Steve
Jackson games.

>Isn't anyone in the RPG industry capable of telling dick-head
>accountants and managers that it will be finished when it's finished,
>and that they _won't_ be allowing the company to release the product
>until it's properly tested ?


Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't really matter in the long run, because that's
not the reason for the problem. Steve Jackson farms out its printing to
different printing plants. There are contracts involved, specific dates that
have to be met. Add to distributors into that mix and you've got even more
of a mess...

>Surely no-one was really relying on getting "Behind The Claw" exactly
>on time and a couple of weeks, or even months, delay in production
>wouldn't have bothered anyone who wanted to buy it ?


It may have bothered the distributors. It may have bothered SJG, who most
likely gave a certain amount of their budget over to printing the book.
Money that could have gone to getting another supplement out _had they
known_ the book would be "a couple of weeks, or even months" late!

SJG is not a charity. Other gaming companies are not charities. They are
businesses. They exist to supply gaming materials to the gaming public at a
cost. It would be nice if we lived in a utopia where everyone just wrote
roleplaying material and turned it out for the fun of it... However, we
don't. (As a side note, the Internet is changing that a bit, dedicated
people like Jeff Zeitlin, Joe Heck, Keven R. Pittsinger and others have
given us _free_ webpages that have stuff that is of professional quality.
Remember to thank them, and others like them, profusely).

>I really don't understand game companies or the people who work for
>them.


It's not that hard. Keep in mind that they are businesses, and they are
people _working_ for businesses. SJG does not want to go the way that GDW or
a host of other gaming companies have gone. The roleplaying crunch has hit
everybody, and it has hit everybody hard.

A business can't make money if the money it already has is tied up in
projects that are waiting to be perfected. In fact, running a company like
that is a sure way to be out of work in short order.

>Firstly, how can a game company stick to a ridiculously tight release
>schedule, when there is no need for such a schedule in the first
>place, and secondly, how can any professional (and I'll admit I'm
>being "nice" by including game designers/writers as "professionals" )
>allow a product to be released with their name on it that hasn't had
>rudimentary checking ?


Seeing as these "game designers/writers" who you feel free to slander are
trying to expand your hobby for a fraction of the money that devoting their
time to a "real job" would give them, I feel that you should show them a bit
more respect and give them a little bit more leeway.

Seeing as the folks who are working directly on Traveller are your peers on
this mailing list, I feel that you should choose your words more carefully.

The roleplaying hobby has been drying up over the last couple of years.
There has been a good deal of turmoil in the industry. There have been major
changes in the American hobby market (with all due respect to my foreign
brethren). In the late 80s and early 90s the market fractured completely.
There was reorganization on all levels. Companies that had existed and
survived for a decade or more were feeling the pinch. Some companies managed
to come out on top by being in the right place at the right time (R.
Talsorian games had a shining moment, White Wolf games, formerly a minor
player in the market rose quickly up the ranks, exploiting a market that
nobody else even knew existed).

Now, roleplaying companies have to be run like businesses. That's the stark
harsh fact of the real world. There are deadlines presented by _everybody_
involved in the business.

Let's set up a hypothetical, yet very realistic situation. SJG (or any other
gaming company) sets a deadline for a book. Since this is imaginary, we'll
make it a GT book. This GT book has a deadline not because Steve Jackson
wants it that way, or the accountants demand it that way. No, the reality of
the situation is that money has to come in. Now gaming shops, in their
industry news leaflets see that a new GT book is coming out. Some of these
shops are run by people who could care less about GURPS, SJG, or even
Traveller. However, they know that they had several special orders for the
last GT book. So, different stores now want to buy this book. They either
send their money to SJG's wholesale department (if the store is able to do
that) or they send their money to a distributor. Now these stores have given
real money to someone else. In turn, the distributor gives real money to
SJG. Steve Jackson games sets aside the money it had gotten from a recent
printing of another book to print the new GT book.

Now, there's a whole lot of money from a whole lot of people floating
around. Now, SJG waits to release a game until there are no errors. A week
passes. Another week passes... A month passes...

Now, the distributors are all starting to get mad. They could have ordered
extra copies of the latest, hottest, Spider Man comic. The hobby shops get
mad, because _they_ could have ordered copies of the latest hottest Spider
Man comic AND  whatever else they need to sell, like more Magic cards, or
additional issues of "Knights of the Dinner Table".

So now what do you have? You have the fans, some of whom feel ripped off
because they were really waiting for that new book before starting their GT
campaign. You have the hobby shops, who are really mad because they know
that SJG is late with the game. You have the distributors, who are fuming
because, not only do they have money down on this new book, _but_ they have
hobby shops calling all the time asking if it's in yet!

So, the faith retailers and distributors have in SJG is absolutely shot to
hell. They may carry some more SJG stuff for a little while, but not too
much. SJG loses tons of sales because their stuff isn't on the shelves to be
perused by potential customers. SJG flounders for a little while, and starts
to lose money. They lay people off. Due to budget constraints, the GURPS
Traveller line is cancelled. Loren K. Wiseman stays on as art director, but
soon, the company begins to fall apart. They try, but can't pay their
writers. Nobody wants to write for them. Nobody wants to carry their books.
They go out of business...

Then, a few months later after the gaming public sees that all GURPS stuff
is marked down 20-50% they realize SJG is gone for good. A couple years
later, many gaming fans are heard to say in passing conversation "Man, it's
such a shame that SJG is gone!"...

>Or has no-one in the game industry got the guts to stand up to idiots
>?


Tell that to the people who have to make rent on their storefront in order
to sell this stuff. Tell that to the distributors who have to keep the
orders to the local stores filled. Tell that to the people at the
roleplaying games who are trying to make a living in a dying market and have
to put up with constant bitching no matter _what_ they do!


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 18:15:05 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [OT] re: Hot Button

To other TML'rs - Apologies in advance.....

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote.

>And why would that be?  I thought we had freedom of speech, or am I wrong in
>concluding that you seem to be saying it means REAL trouble, and not just
>ascii flames?

1) We don't have freedom of speech.  Unless this is the arrogant assumption
that this list is totally American.

2) This list is for the discussion of Traveller, and the community on the
TML tends to be reasonable as to what can be discussed. But you continue to
ignore warning signs, and blunder into arguments like a bull in a china
shop. Clif, please try and avoid responding when people push your buttons.
I would actually rather you weren't removed from the list (as some of your
Traveller related postings were quite interesting), which is cutting you a
lot more slack than other people here. But if you carry on like this Rob
Miracle will get more complaints and then you get cut out of here.

Please try and wait and think over what you post - maybe overnight - before
you send it. Think if you're likely to be off topic or enflame another list
member. You're entitled to your views, and others have theirs. But the way
you present them is likely to get you cut out of the forum, and then what
good is free speech if no-one listens to the voice?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:20:44 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4

"Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:

>Twilight 2000 V2.2 was Twilight 2000 V2.0 modified to be compatible
>with TNE.
>
>So TNE definitely did _not_ come from Twilight 2000

'A fast, simple task and combat system compatible with GDW's Twilight 2000
(tm) and Dark Conspiracy(tm) games.' Source - Back cover of TNE first
printing.

' Traveller: The New Era is more than just a change in background; it's a
major revision of the game system that all existing Traveller players
should welcome (*). This revision has two principle features.
A compatible system: The new game uses a new system - at least it's new for
Traveller. We've used the GDW House System for the game, because it
provides a number of exciting advantages. ....snip....
Completely compatible with Twilight:2000, Dark Conspiracy, and Cadillacs
and Dinosaurs...'

Source - Understanding Traveller: The New Era leaflet.

TNE did come from the same genus as T2000. The issue is whether Dark
Conspiracy pre-dated T2k second edition. (V2, not v2.2)

Dom

(*) Not bloody likely ;-)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:05:49 +1300
From: "Anson Betts" <AFBetts@salcom.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Online RPG Sources

>Has anyone had luck with any online RPG stores?  My local shop isn't too
>quick on getting things to me in a timely fashion, and the next closest is
over
>1/2 hour drive (through the Wisconsin winters ...).

>Thanks in advance
>-- James Pearson


I've had good experiences with
Titan Games
www.titan-games.com

and
WestEnd Games (they had a big sale on recently)
www.westendgames.net/webweg.htm

Cheers,
 Anson.

Oook Oook

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 18:01:59 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Publishing (was re: Behind the Claw: Errata?..)

Eris Reddoch said:

>Of course, if we weren't talking about all those color plates and
>fancy artwork that some of you seem to *require*....<grin>...


Hey, don't shoot the messenger! It's the way the market has been going...

I treasure my LBBs myself.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 17:12:07 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4

On 01/07/99 at 11:59 AM,  "Anson Betts" <AFBetts@salcom.co.nz> said:

>>So TNE definitely did _not_ come from Twilight 2000
>>
>Nope, but 2300 came from Twilight 2000  (Well, so far as in using the
>same timeline) :P

Timeline, yes. Rules system, no.

However, seeing as Tw2K had slightly different timelines depending
on the version, the question would be *which* timeline did 2300
evolve from?  ;-p  Or did Traveller 2300 evolve from Tw2K v1 and
2300AD from Tw2K v2? ;-/`

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 15:15:54 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

If you are looking for a race to abscribe wierd behavior to,
pick the Aslan.  All the races are sentient and none are going
to do something that doesn't get them rational goals, but at
least the Aslan are more alien.  Canine pack dominance is
actually very similar to primate.  The Vargr should be the
most human of the alien races....

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 17:15:20 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Online RPG Sources

On 01/07/99 at 12:05 PM,  "Anson Betts" <AFBetts@salcom.co.nz> said:

>>Has anyone had luck with any online RPG stores?  My local shop isn't too
>>quick on getting things to me in a timely fashion, and the next closest is
>over
>>1/2 hour drive (through the Wisconsin winters ...).

>>Thanks in advance
>>-- James Pearson


>I've had good experiences with
>Titan Games
>www.titan-games.com


I'll second Titan Games as a good source.

If it is an SJG product, you can order direct from them too.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 18:17:07 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Magazine Capacities

In a message dated 1/6/99 1:27:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, TravelrTNE@aol.com
writes:

<< Never been on an Army range (well I was, but we were using it on our own).
>>

I learned to shoot a handgun at the NYCPD range at Rodman's neck in the Bronx
when I was in the academy. I remember that ALL weapons were unloaded (you
loaded on the firing line), and you left the line unloaded. If you unholstered
your weapon anywhere except on the line, and only on the command "draw your
service revolver" (presumably now a service pistol...), you were IMMEDIATELY
fired.  The range instructors had no such prohibitions and I bet that their
definition of "fired" is different if a recruit gets dangerous...

The one exception was after the day's shooting we had to clean our weapons
before we turned them back in, and then we wouldn't see them again until the
day before graduation, when we were given our weapon and shields to take home.
That was a hell of a feeling...

An amusing sidenote was that the Dept. of Corrections used work release
inmates as custodians to clean up the range. Every couple of years a recruit
takes a crap, and leaves his gunbelt in the john. It's very funny to see a
prisoner in an orange jumpsuit walk up to a range officer and say "I found
this in the bathroom...". The inmate gets a LOT of good time towards his
release, and the poor recruit is now unemployed...

Ob Traveller: gosh this is tough...hmm...wacky NPC encounters?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 18:24:36 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)

In a message dated 1/6/99 2:36:59 PM Pacific Standard Time, AveNelso@aol.com
writes:

<< it says that NOBLES, including their entourages/bodyguards have
 a right to bear arms.  I've taken that to mean that they are above planetary
 restrictions. Commoners, on the other hand are bound by planetary law only.
 One only has to look at our friend Dulinor to see just how far the Noble's
 right to bear arms extends.	 >>

Is that arms or firearms? This is a subtle point that I bet the MT Strephon
and Dulinor would be VERY interested in. I can see Dulinor trying to stick
Strephon with a dressword...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 18:30:43 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics 

> If you are looking for a race to abscribe wierd behavior to,
> pick the Aslan.  All the races are sentient and none are going
> to do something that doesn't get them rational goals, but at
> least the Aslan are more alien.  Canine pack dominance is
> actually very similar to primate.  The Vargr should be the
> most human of the alien races....

Yeah, the Vargr are the most humanlike of the aliens, but the Hivers have
*GOTTA* be the most alien.

Just don't eat the corn dogs.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 18:35:42 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions

In a message dated 1/6/99 3:04:17 PM Pacific Standard Time, semo@pil.net
writes:

<< (As a side note, the Internet is changing that a bit, dedicated
 people like Jeff Zeitlin, Joe Heck, Keven R. Pittsinger and others have
 given us _free_ webpages that have stuff that is of professional quality.
 Remember to thank them, and others like them, profusely). >>

                       T        H         A       N      K       S      !!!

BTW: GREAT post.....

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 18:38:12 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Calendars---Call Me Doctor Moron

	I recently wrote a post about the Latin word for "year"  and,despite the fact
I've studied Latin for 20 years, wrote a dissertation and have taught it since
1989,   I made a really stupid blunder, which I just realized.   The word for
year in Latin isn't neuter   annum/anna, as I had posted.   it is really
masculine, thus the form would be  
	ANNUS, singular,   ANNI  plural

		(at least what I said about   anno was correct)

		Dave  "Dr Moron"  Nelson, rolls a spectacular failure on his Lingusitics
skill.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 18:34:31 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Online RPG Resources 

OK, I know *somebody* here has to know where there's an online email dice 
server.  So who knows where one is?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 18:40:28 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

In a message dated 1/6/99 3:18:06 PM Pacific Standard Time,
summers@alum.mit.edu writes:

<< If you are looking for a race to abscribe wierd behavior to,
 pick the Aslan. >>

True, but the K'Kree and the Hivers are even wierder...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:48:00 -0600
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Pluto's Secret and Mars (Rim War)

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

> This goes into another thing.  In the description for Mars, it says the Rim
> War battle ended in teh destruction of the [Solomani] naval base at Deimos,
> "moon and all."  What does the Imperium have that could pulverize an entire
> moon?  Near C rock?  Antimatter weapon?  Something they found at Pluto?  : )

Bruce Alan Macintosh replied:

> The binding energy of Phobos is about 1.6e16 joules (this is from memory - 
> I think gravitational binding energy goes as (m^2/r) and Earth's is about
> 2x10^32 joules.) That's probably more than the amount of antimatter the
> Imperium could manufacture (and deploy efficiently) at TL15...but is only
> about 16 tonnes travelling at 1000 km/s (55 BL hexes per turn, or 6 G for
> 4.6 hours.) So it doesn't even require a particularly relativistic missile - 

Ack!  That's equivalent to a disabled Kinunir (~16000 metric tons) moving at
only 32 km/s (under 2 G-turns)!  Are those numbers right?

TravelrTNE@aol.com continued:

> (Pluto would've almost certainly been taken, first, no?)   Also, the larger
> Martian moon, Phobos, isn't even  mentioned in the Extended System.  Where did
> it go?  I've read it's been observed to be in a slowly decaying orbit?  Did it
> crash onto Mars?

Deimos may be the smallest moon in the Solar System; it masses only around
two trillion tons, and probably has a volume of about as many cubic meters.

Most of the other moons left off the extended UWP list have diameters under
200 km (size S) and are therefore too small to show up even there; Phobos
and Deimos both get missed this way.  The gas giants look like this:

  * Jupiter: Io, Europa, Ganymede, Callisto.  
             (Amalthea just misses at 196 km)
  * Saturn:  Mimas, Enceladus, Tethys, Dione, Rhea, Titan, Hyperion, 
             Iapetus, Phoebe.
  * Uranus:  Miranda, Ariel, Umbriel, Titania, Oberon.
  * Neptune: Proteus, Triton, Nereid.
             (Larissa just misses at 192 km)

As I recall, only Proteus was missed on the extended UWP chart, and that's
because it was discovered by Voyager 2 in 1989.  There's probably a couple
of dozen asteroids that would qualify if listed individually.

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 18:54:27 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Pluto's Secret and Mars (Rim War)

In a message dated 1/6/99 3:50:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
bonnevil@ima.umn.edu writes:

<< Most of the other moons left off the extended UWP list have diameters under
 200 km (size S) and are therefore too small to show up even there; Phobos
 and Deimos both get missed this way.  The gas giants look like this:
 
   * Jupiter: Io, Europa, Ganymede, Callisto.  
              (Amalthea just misses at 196 km)
   * Saturn:  Mimas, Enceladus, Tethys, Dione, Rhea, Titan, Hyperion, 
              Iapetus, Phoebe.
   * Uranus:  Miranda, Ariel, Umbriel, Titania, Oberon.
   * Neptune: Proteus, Triton, Nereid.
              (Larissa just misses at 192 km)
 
 As I recall, only Proteus was missed on the extended UWP chart, and that's
 because it was discovered by Voyager 2 in 1989.  There's probably a couple
 of dozen asteroids that would qualify if listed individually.
 
   -- Steve Bonneville
  >>

I noticed that in LBB book 6 Scouts too... Does anyone have a list of ALL of
the Sol system's moons (including the under 200 km diameter ones)?

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 18:51:53 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions 

> In a message dated 1/6/99 3:04:17 PM Pacific Standard Time, semo@pil.net
> writes:
> 
> << (As a side note, the Internet is changing that a bit, dedicated
>  people like Jeff Zeitlin, Joe Heck, Keven R. Pittsinger and others have
>  given us _free_ webpages that have stuff that is of professional quality.
>  Remember to thank them, and others like them, profusely). >>
> 
>                        T        H         A       N      K       S      !!!
> 
> BTW: GREAT post.....

I'm blushing.  Really.  To be ranked up there with Joe Heck & Jeff Zeitlin, 
two guys whose monitors I'm prolly not qualified to dust off, is some 
*serious* praise.  I don't deserve it, but thank you!

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:00:02 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Skill Sets (long)

Dear Folks -

1.   MT to T4 conversions

Clif asked:
>Can someone convert the following MT skills to their T4 names and give me
>the descriptions?
>Vice
>Physical
>
>And these, also?
>
>Interview
>Recruiting
>Liaison
>Inborn
>Interpersonal

Vice, Physical, Inborn, and Interpersonal are cascade skills - that is,
they refer to a set of skills from which you pick ONE skill, for example:

Academic (Cascade)
     Admin
     History
     Linguistics
     Persuasion
     Science (Cascade)
     +1 Edu
Economic (Cascade)
     Admin
     Broker
     Legal
     Trader
Inborn (Cascade)
     Artisan
     Carousing
     Instruction
     Jack-of-all-Trades
     Leader
Interpersonal (Cascade)
     Admin
     Interview
     Liaison
     Linguistics
     Steward
Mental (Cascade)
     +1 Edu
     +1 Int
Physical (Cascade)
     +1 Dex
     +1 End
     +1 Str
Vice (Cascade)
     Bribery
     Disguise
     Forgery
     Gambling
     Intrusion
     Streetwise

Most of the list have already been translated by Eris, although I disagree
with him about the following:

>Interview.......Interrogation

Interview is a "Serves as" skill in MT. Specifically, it "serves as"
Interrogation-1, although the reverse does not apply in MT. Interview was
created by DGP so that their journalist, Akida Laagir, had a unique skill.

Maybe you could stretch this in T4 (although I would make it
Interrogation-1) if you really feel that you need to keep this skill.

>Recruiting......none, Carousing or Fast Talk might do

I think Fast Talk is just for the initial encounter - this is the "Eddie
Murphy" skill. ;-)  Recruiting skill is used to determine a potential
hireling's true worth, so perhaps Admin or even Investigation or Diplomacy
are better choices. Even better, roleplay through three levels: Fast Talk
for initial contact, Investigation/Diplomacy/Interrogation for the
interview, Admin for the final paperwork. ;-)

>Liaison.........none, Carousing and Admin might do

_Diplomacy_ is a thinly-disguised version of Liaison; both really do the
same thing, but I think that Marc wanted the nobility to have something to
do (this is the basis of the Milieu:0 campaign) and therefore needed more
skills based on Soc.

Of course, feel free to vary all of this in your campaign - I do! I allow
the following additions IMTU:

Academic
     Instruction
Interpersonal
     Interrogation (if appropriate to the service)
     Persuasion
     Streetwise
Vice
     Stealth

And if you are adding Physical as a T4 "cluster", I suggest you include
Athletics, Dance, and Throwing to the cluster list.

2.   Skill Set Discussion

The differences in the skill sets are due to the way game designers choose
to model people's abilities. Some systems, such as AD&D, do not use
specific skills as a basis for their characters. In AD&D, the basis of a
character's abilities is their character class. Fighters cannot cast
spells, while magic-users cannot fight very well. Thieves can pick pockets,
but cannot cast healing spells, the purvue of the cleric. Secondary skills
are just that - secondary. They are an afterthought, thrown in to round out
and/or differentiate a character. However, this system allows a small party
of five or six PC's to be balanced - the mix of abilities should be
sufficient to deal with most things a GM throws at them.

Other systems are based on skills rather than classes. Some of these, such
as Rolemaster and - dare I say it - GURPS, are IMO too detailed in their
differentiation of skills (proponents of these systems prefer to call them
"comprehensive"!). I have found that it can be difficult to create a
balanced party. Too often, a scenario calls for a skill that the party
simply doesn't have.

I think it is better to have a smaller selection of skills, and allow the
skills to be reasonably broadly-based. This is a juggling act to produce a
balanced, inclusive, and playable skill set. Traveller does this reasonably
well. For example, "Electronics" allows a character to do everything from
repairing a vehicle's wiring, to installing lights in a house, to repairing
a computer's circuitry! In "reality", these are broken down into different,
individual specialities (in fact, supplementary rules such as the "Imperial
Academy of Science and Medicine" exist for just this purpose). However,
from a *game* perspective, a house electrician will be pretty useless to a
party who have to repair a shot-up control panel on their grav vehicle!
Thus the broad nature of the skills, and the use of Serves As skills (MT)
or Cascade skills (T4).

The other way that Traveller clumps skills together is through Cascade
skills (MT) or Clusters (T4). These are primarily used in character
creation, allowing the player some measure of choice over the skills their
character asquires while still retaining a certain randomness (ignore this
discussion for TNE). I recently completed MT-style character generation
systems for Police and the Imperial Ministry of Justice (neither up on my
site as yet, sorry!). To do this, I used Cascade skills throughout the
skills selection tables, just as MT did. In fact, I even stole a few new
cluster groupings from the IRIS chargen article in Challenge. Randomness
WITH choice - it is possible!
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1370
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, January 6 1999     Volume 1998 : Number 1371



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Remodelling MT Vehicle Armour
Re: Surveillance
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: Pluto's Secret and Mars (Rim War)
Re: Hot Button
Re: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions 
Re: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions
Re: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions
Unresolved-class G-Carrier
Re: Surveillance
Re: Pluto's Secret and Mars (Rim War)
Re: Pluto's Secret and Mars (Rim War)
Re: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions 
Re: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions 
Re: style
Re: Terran First Contact Timeline (long) >
re: Rule systems
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
re: Aslan & Vargr tactics
re: FF&S2 ISBN

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:01:31 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Remodelling MT Vehicle Armour

Dear Folks -

I have designed vehicles using both _Striker_ (v1) and _Megatraveller_, and
was always unhappy about the "all-round" armour used in MT. It works fine
and is logical for space vessels, but not for planet-based combat vehicles.

Therefore, I created a spreadsheet to remodel the armour for MT vehicles,
and it is available on my website. This is an attempt to re-distribute the
armour UN-evenly over their surfaces, achieved by estimating the total MT
armour volume in _Striker_ terms, then moving it around.

Admittedly, it does this in a quick-and-dirty way.

First, you must estimate the vehicle dimensions. You are given a little
help though a table that gives basic dimensions based on an arbitrary ratio:
width = 1.5 x height, and length = 4.5 x width. However, YOU can modify the
final dimensions if you are not happy - just make sure it all multiplies out
to give the same vehicle volume as before!

Second, it assumes that "slope" was never taken into account before, and
therefore uses the slope factor to improve the armour class of the
vehicle.

[If I was doing this "properly", I would have to recalc the "real"
original thickness *including* the slope modifier, so that everything
equals the overall armour rating. However, I think that the vehicles that
come out of the standard MT design process are wounded enough, and deserve
the extra help. Besides, I want the system to be quick, not a full re-build
of every design!]

For some, like the second version of the Trepida (below), I simply cheated
and DOUBLED the base thickness so that it comes out looking like a real
tank instead of a tin-can. It's either this or re-design the sucker!

I worked out the system using a number of examples from _101 Vehicles_,
specifically the Lancer, Gram Grav APC, and Trepida.

Lancer Combat Vehicle (_101 Vehicles_, p 18)
     Base MT AV: 50G (bonded superdense)
     Effective thickness (Striker/MT) = 80cm hard steel
     Real thickness (Striker) = effective thickness / toughness / slope
          = 80 / 14 / 1
          = 5.7143 cm bonded superdense
     Arbitrary dimensions: 20m x 4.5m x 3m (length/width/height)
     Assumed Slopes: Front radical, Sides moderate, remainder nil
     Re-calculated armour: Front 12.47cm, Rear 5.72cm, Sides 5.86cm (each),
          Deck 5.72cm, Belly 4.5cm
     Re-rated Armour: Front 67, Rear 50, Sides 55, Deck 50, Belly 47

Gram Grav APC (_101 Vehicles_, p 9)
     Base MT AV: 43E (Crystaliron)
     Eff thickness = 43.6cm hard steel
     Real thickness = 8.72cm crystaliron
     Dimensions: 6m x 4.5m x 2.5m
     Slopes: Front and rear moderate, remainder nil
     Re-calculated armour: Front 10.667cm, Rear 5.814cm, Sides 10.38cm,
          Deck 9.52cm, Belly 6.72cm (this uses fractionally too much
          armour, actually 0.06m^3 too much - well, I can live with that!)
     Re-rated armour: Front 50, Rear 43, Sides 45, Deck 44, Belly 40

Trepida Grav Tank (_101 Vehicles_, front endpiece), without doubling
     Base MT AV: 40G (Bonded Superdense)
     Eff thickness = 33.6cm hard steel
     Real thickness = 2.4cm bonded superdense
     Dimensions: 9m x 5m x 3m
     Slopes: Front radical, sides and and rear moderate, remainder nil
     Re-calculated armour: Front 4.8216cm, Rear 1.9056cm, Sides 2.4720cm,
          Deck 2.4000cm, Belly 1.7016cm (this uses 0.01m^3 too much armour)
     Re-rated armour: Front 56, Rear 42, Sides 45, Deck 40, Belly 36

Trepida Grav Tank (_101 Vehicles_, front endpiece), WITH doubling
     Base MT AV: 40G (Bonded Superdense)
     Eff thickness = 33.6cm hard steel
     Real thickness = 2.4cm bonded superdense
          (now double it - a quick-and-dirty cheat) = 4.8cm BSD
     Dimensions: 9m x 5m x 3m
     Slopes: Front radical, sides and and rear moderate, remainder nil
     Re-calculated armour: Front 12.4643cm, Rear 3.8096cm, Sides 4.9524cm,
          Deck 4.8072cm, Belly 2.4000cm (uses 0.0066m^3 too much)
     Re-rated armour: Front 67, Rear 50, Sides 53, Deck 48, Belly 40
          (There, THAT looks a bit better!)

Bibliography

1.   Gary L Thomas (ed.), _101 Vehicles_, Digest Group Publications, USA,
     1988.
2.   Frank Chadwick, _Striker_, GDW, USA, 1981.
3.   Marc W. Miller, _MegaTraveller_, GDW, USA, 1987.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:01:51 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Surveillance

Dear Folks -

Bruce said:
>>>ObTrav: How intrusive can a high law, TL15 government be?
>>If they can see through solids...
>Probably they can't see through solids very well; of known traveller
>technologies, only radar could really do this

Sorry to correct Bruce, the Dean of Traveller T4 Sensors, but the MT rules
included densitometers. These could give you a density map of an object's
interior - rather like an Xray. This is why I don't have many objections to
laying out starship deckplans during boarding actions, rather than
(AD&D-tyle) having the map "rezz" in front of the characters as they
move...

Admittedly, it is a Difficult task to see through superdense and above. I
rule that even on success the images received are fuzzy, but sufficiently
detailed enough for computer enhancement to produce a floorplan.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 18:59:58 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

In a message dated 1/6/99 11:58:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, Sethkimmel
writes:

<< << Hmmm, sounds good to me. I wonder what the Vargr battlecry would be, some
  sort of howl?   >>
 
 How about 
 
 "Kibbles and bits. Kibbles and bits. I gotta get me some kibbles and bits!"?
 
 (an amusing American TV dog food commercial to those who are going "what?")
>>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 01:07:31 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Pluto's Secret and Mars (Rim War)

On Wed, 6 Jan 1999 Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

>I noticed that in LBB book 6 Scouts too... Does anyone have a list of ALL of
>the Sol system's moons (including the under 200 km diameter ones)?

For information on the solar system check out 

The Nine Planets at   http://www.seds.org/billa/tnp/

>
>Seth
>

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:09:57 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Hot Button

>And why would that be?  I thought we had freedom of speech, or am I wrong in
>concluding that you seem to be saying it means REAL trouble, and not just
>ascii flames?
>
>--Clif


1.)  Not everyone on this list is from the United States.

2.)  This list bandwidth is generously provided by MPGN, which stands for
the "MultiPlayer Gaming Network" or some-such. This bandwidth is provided
_free_ for us to use by them, even though it brings them no profit. In fact,
I'd be willing to bet that many folks on this list don't even know what MPGN
is or what their major product is. I will give away this much of a hint: It
has nothing to do with Traveller. This list is a courtesy given to us by
folks who could, most likely, find better use for that bandwidth than
allowing us to use it.

In summary: There is no such thing as freedom of speech on this mailing
list. Period.

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:15:24 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions 

Keven R. Pittsinger said:

>> << (As a side note, the Internet is changing that a bit, dedicated
>>  people like Jeff Zeitlin, Joe Heck, Keven R. Pittsinger and others have
>>  given us _free_ webpages that have stuff that is of professional quality.
>>  Remember to thank them, and others like them, profusely). >>
>>
>>                        T        H         A       N      K       S
!!!
>>
>> BTW: GREAT post.....
>
>I'm blushing.  Really.  To be ranked up there with Joe Heck & Jeff Zeitlin,
>two guys whose monitors I'm prolly not qualified to dust off, is some
>*serious* praise.  I don't deserve it, but thank you!


It's not just the three of you either... There are more people, people who
spend time and effort so that other people don't have to, for no money and
no real recognition. That's what I was getting at with the side note to my
rant.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:17:28 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions

Sethkimmel said:

>                       T        H         A       N      K       S      !!!
>
>BTW: GREAT post.....


Thank you very much.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:24:01 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions

It should be noted, before we goo to far in the comparisons to
IG, that BTC is a number of steps better than how some of their
books came out.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:26:41 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Unresolved-class G-Carrier

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Dear Folks -

I finally got around to publishing the Unresolved-class G-Carrier on my
"Hyphen's Traveller pages". Here is the outline ( the "pretty" version AND
spreadsheet listing are available on my site):

TL 15 UNRESOLVED G-CARRIER

The Unresolved-class G-Carrier was commissioned by Adifux Inc LIC Pty Ltd
as the company's primary means of surface transportation. Two of the
company owners (the Aslan noble Sir Eoraokortitrikhue, OEG, of Rhylanor and
the Droyne noble Sir Ervmisbe, OEG, of Auitawry) specified that the
external shell be identical to the time-honoured Resolve-class, allowing
them to hide a high-performance vehicle inside a fa

- --0__=CbSdoNQQqlR5ZbrUAmzQsO5et8OOegVGQWHwm9VfdMihnKfmJTyEiv7W
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ade that would not
arouse suspicion - in effect, creating a Q-ship. Even the fusion gun has
been modelled to look as much as possible like the Resolve's standard
laser. As long as the vehicle is driven as though it were a Resolve (with a
cruising speed of 315 kph and top speed of 420 kph), most people don't give
it a second look. However, a close visual inspection will show that the
"laser", at the very least, is not what it seems.

A normal extrality line inspection of the vehicle will not reveal the
nature of the craft. A close inspection will reveal the extra sensor
equipment, and a suspicious customs officer may wonder about the thick
armour and the high-tech power plant (half the size of the original but
with three times the output!). However, Low Law Level worlds (3-) will
generally allow the craft through. At Moderate Law Levels (4-7), even a
vehicle-mounted laser is illegal, and will not be allowed past the
extrality line. In this event, the weapon must be removed before the
vehicle can proceed. Fortunately for Adifux, they have a competent Vargr
engineer (Sir Dakhrongkae, OEG) who can dismantle the fusion gun and
conceal its components behind panels in the cargo area (they even plug
in!). Only an extremely close inspection and scan of the vehicle will
reveal the weapon when it is hidden in this way. However, it takes at least
half a day to reassemble, reattach and realign.

The vehicle only has half the passenger capacity of the original and costs
three times as much, but the owners believe that the extra performance and
on-board equipment more than compensate!

CraftID: Unresolved G-Carrier, TL 15, Cr10,891,000
Hull:    100/240, Disp=3D10, Config=3D4SL, Armour=3D40G, Unloaded=3D78 tons,
         Loaded=3D130 tons
Power:   20/30, Fusion=3D75MW, Dur=3D10/30
Loco:    10/20, Std Grav, Thrust=3D196 tons, NOE=3D150kph, Cruise=3D450kph,
         Top=3D600kph, MaxAccel=3D0.5G
Commo:   Meson=3DRegional (500km), Radio=3DSystem (1,000 AU), Laser=3DRegional
         (500km), Maser=3DRegional (500km)
Sensors: Active EMS=3DRegional (500km), Pass EMS=3DCont (5,000km), EMS
         Jam=3DRegional (500km), Densitometer=3DHiPen/1km, Neutrino=3D10kW,
         NAS=3DVLong (500m), Pass Audio=3DDist (5km), Act Audio (pinger)=3DDist
         (5km), Pass Mag=3DVDist (50km), Pass Environ, EM Mask, Headlights
         x 2, Holorecorder-15 (includes Ervmisbe's "Ride of the Valkiries"
         recording), Ervmisbe's Removable Flashing Blue Light x 1,
         ActObjScan=3DDiff, ActObjPin=3DDiff, PassObjScan=3DRout,
         PassObjPin=3DRout, PassEngScan=3DDiff, PassEngPin=3DRout
Off:     Hardpoints=3D1
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------=

              Ammo Rds Pen/Attn Dmg MaxRng   AutoTgts DngrSpc Sig ROF
Fusion=A0RFX-15   0  ---  67/5     30 VDist(18)   4        45    Hi 160
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------=

Def:     Smoke Discharger x 10, Prismatic Aerosol x 10
Control: Computer=3D2 x 1, 1/fib x 1, Holo Link x 43, Holo HUD x 3 (all ECP)
Accom:   Crew=3D3 (Cmdr, driver, gunner), Passenger=3D5, Seats=3DRoomy x 8,
         Env=3DBasic env, basic ls, ext ls, grav plates, inert comp
Other:   Fuel=3D27kl, Cargo=3D50kl (3.7 disp tons), ObjSize=3DAverage,
         EmLevel=3DNil

Note that this design reflects the recent TML errata that multiplies all
damage point figures by 10.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
- -
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520=
)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.a=
u
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity=
"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
- -
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely thos=
e
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, th=
e
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
- -
=

- --0__=CbSdoNQQqlR5ZbrUAmzQsO5et8OOegVGQWHwm9VfdMihnKfmJTyEiv7W--

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:27:59 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Surveillance

>There *is* a barrier to IR in that case - the atmosphere. The imagery is
>supposed to be Thermal Imagery, from a satellite. The atmosphere *does*
>have two wavelength windows for IR; but these work well at short
>distances. Not through the whole thickness of the atmosphere. This is
>one of the reasons that most short range air-to-air missiles are IR
>guided; but long range ones are radar guided.

There are many atmospheric windows in the IR, and in many of them the
end-to-end absorbtion is less than 50% - much less than 50% for dry
sites. (I usually worry about this in the "looking up" direction, of
course, but it works both ways.)

IR missiles tended to be short ranged more because of primitive detectors
(mechanically-scanned single-element detectors) than anything fundamental.
A $60,000 commercial IR camera (about the size of a bulky camcorder) can
see commercial jet aircraft at 20 - 40 miles with no special image processing
or optimization (I've done the test myself.) 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 19:33:15 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Pluto's Secret and Mars (Rim War)

At 01:39 PM 1/6/99 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>battle ended in teh destruction of the [Solomani] naval base at Deimos
>>"moon and all."  What does the Imperium have that could pulverize an entire
>>moon?  Near C rock?  Antimatter weapon?
>
>The binding energy of Phobos is about 1.6e16 joules (this is from memory - 
>I think gravitational binding energy goes as (m^2/r) and Earth's is about
>2x10^32 joules.) That's probably more than the amount of antimatter the
>Imperium could manufacture (and deploy efficiently) at TL15...but is only
>about 16 tonnes travelling at 1000 km/s (55 BL hexes per turn, or 6 G for
>4.6 hours.) So it doesn't even require a particularly relativistic missile - 
>a big battlefleet could carry several hundred such missiles. The carrying
>ship could do most of the acceleration before entering jump and emerge
>at Mars' 100-d limit moving at 1000 km/s, drop the missiles (which 
>adjust their course accordingly). The defence is to intercept these with ones
>own big KKMs, so the rest of the fleet has to come in to provide PD fire to
>protect the deimos-busters, or you keep lobbing them until Deimos runs out of
>countermissiles.
>
>Lesson: fixed installations in the Traveller universe are undefendable. 
>
>Possibly Deimos - if it really was a major naval base - would have a 
>really big maneuver drive and some maneuver capability to defend against this
>attack (even a hundredth of a G would help with not being where the
>attack expects you to be, since the attacker (if they're jumping in) is using
>two-week-old positional data. In that case, the first task for the Imperium is
>to destroy the maneuver drive.
>
>(Other Lesson: it's not nice to fool with conservation of energy...)
>
>Bruce


I remember reading in an old issue of Ares about this theory.  It dealt
with how war might take place on a system level.  The author theorized that
the "owning" empire would have a large number of remotely guided and
commanded 'darts' orbiting somewhere beyond the farthest planet.  When the
need arose to keep the local system in line, the order was given to change
the trajectory and begin acceleration.  This would give the guy on the
ground a chance to resolve the dispute peacefully, but having a big stick
just in case.

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:30:24 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Pluto's Secret and Mars (Rim War)

>> The binding energy of Phobos is about 1.6e16 joules (this is from memory - 
>> I think gravitational binding energy goes as (m^2/r) and Earth's is about
>> 2x10^32 joules.)

>Ack!  That's equivalent to a disabled Kinunir (~16000 metric tons) moving at
>only 32 km/s (under 2 G-turns)!  Are those numbers right?

I could be wrong - as I said, it's from memory - but Phobos/Deimos are
pretty small. In fact, they're probably held together as much by mechanical
forces/rigidity as gravity, which implies that one might need several times
more energy to disrupt them; still, overall they're pretty small and wimpy. 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 19:34:51 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions 

> >I'm blushing.  Really.  To be ranked up there with Joe Heck & Jeff Zeitlin,
> >two guys whose monitors I'm prolly not qualified to dust off, is some
> >*serious* praise.  I don't deserve it, but thank you!
> 
> 
> It's not just the three of you either... There are more people, people who
> spend time and effort so that other people don't have to, for no money and
> no real recognition. That's what I was getting at with the side note to my
> rant.

There's some *GREAT* sites out there.  A lot of them a *LOT* better than mine.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 19:39:11 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Behind The Claw: Errata? and other questions 

> It should be noted, before we goo to far in the comparisons to
> IG, that BTC is a number of steps better than how some of their
> books came out.

Heh.  *THAT* wasn't hard to do.  *ANYBODY* can hit a dead target.  <grin>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 00:47:10 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: style

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:

>  In other words, we have to learn to love artwork over (text) content?  :(

No, we just have to met higher expectation levels with the artwork. Have a
look at Elric!, Fading Suns, Star Wars, SLA Industries, Legends of the 5
Rings or even Alternity.


Or the WW stuff. Although in the latter case style may overpower content a
little. <duck and run>

Elric! and Legends are the two better examples, Elric especially as it is
B&W, and clear.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 00:06:56 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Terran First Contact Timeline (long) >

"Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:

>>Another waste of good money, much like the vandal-like destruction of the
>>TSR2 :-(
>Agree completely, that was one nice plane.

The thing that really annoys me is the destruction of the jigs, fixtures,
design and research so no future government could use it. Vandalism.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 00:25:06 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Rule systems

Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> wrote:

>2300, originally published as 2300AD

Nope - originally published as Traveller:2300, then revised and reissued as
2300AD

>used a rule set most people likened
>to MT in design but still quite different and original.  Many of the
>ideas in Star Cruiser, the starship combat system of 2300 found their
>way into Brilliant Lances, the starship combat system for TNE.  These
>would include things like, detection phases, x-ray detonation lasers,
>and sensor white-out from nuclear detonations.

Star Cruiser is a more playable game, IMO. Pity the NAM was broken.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 00:38:18 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

Doug Berry wrote:

>Aslan and Vargr are cats and dogs only if you play them that way.  A better
>analogy would be samurai and Sioux.  Bringing the Kafer into Traveller
>might be fun, but difficult to do.

Didn't Kenneth 'TaskWars ;-)' Bearden post something on this about 12
months ago?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 00:43:38 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Aslan & Vargr tactics

 "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu> wrote:

>It seems the Kzinti were a bunch of big space-kitties, divided into clans.
>They spent most of their time having innumerable civil wars with each
>other. This caused a fascinating side effect: their starships were optimized
>to fight other Kzinti starships.

Consider the examples in Imperium and the background about Vilani/Terran
contact.

Missile Boats, Beam armaments, Missile Cruisers etc. The Vilani were
hidebound to a style of combat.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 00:31:51 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: FF&S2 ISBN

"Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com> wrote:

>Can someone tell me the ISBN of FF&S v2?

Yes.

1-57828-422-8

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1371
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, January 6 1999     Volume 1998 : Number 1372



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Thermal Imaging and IR
Re: Aslan & Vargr tactics
Going Postal in the Army
Re: Aslan & Vargr tactics 
Unresolved - repost
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: [OT] re: Hot Button
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Online RPG Resources
StarCruiser
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1367
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Fw: Stratfor Global Intelligence report for 1999
Re: Simulations (was re: Texan Secession)
Re: Happy Space:1999

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:52:10 -0800
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <Vanquer@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Thermal Imaging and IR

>>    My understanding was that Thermal Imagery detected Thermal Radiation,
>>while Infra-red detected variations in actual temperature... Of course I
>>have
>>no idea where I got this, so I don't have a way to check my "facts".

>Right. There are two principle night-vision technologies: Thermal
>imagers; and light-intensification units.

>Light intensification units work by significantly amplifying the low-
>level available light at night. This can be moonlight; starlight;
>artificial light reflected of clouds; whatever. They tend to `whine' due
>to the nature of the electronics used. They are typically configured to
>give a monochrome (green) image.
>Thermal imaging systems work by detecting infra-red radiation (heat
>radiation) emitted from the targets. They are now sensitive enough to
>pick up a human body; a smear of hot rubber from a car tyre on tarmac;
>etc. All but the newest are cooled by gas; giving them a limited
>operating time. The gas compressor emits a low, droning noise. They are
>typically configured to give a grayscale image; although some units use
>a false-colour map to give the `Hollywood special' pictures everyone
>expects.
>Individual weapon and personal night sights tend to be LI units; vehicle
>mounted units and search-and-rescue gear tends to be TI.
>Aetherem Vincere
>Matt


Sorry for the massive over-quoting here- but I thought it necessary to make
sure that the general jist of this convo. was kept "on track" so to speak,
it's
rather simple for people to repeat what was already covered in the above
information...

Well Matt... When playing Twilight 2000, I've come across (I believe) three,
not two systems. We've got Starlite, Infrared, and Thermal imaging systems-
Unless two of these are the same with differing names...

You've summed up Starlite (Light Intensification), and Thermal sites really
well above... But, that still leaves Infrared rather open. I REALLY wish I
could
remember my source for this- because I'm in no way qualified to say this on
my own accounts and experience (Except starlite)...

Anyway, I *think* the difference between IR and Thermal is that one picks up
on Heat  while the other picks up on Radiation itself... Somehow, that
doesn't make sense since "Heat" and "Thermal" are basically synonymous though.

I always thought that IR gave you the simple black and white view with varying
shades of gray, while Thermal imaging gave you the special Hollywood type
visual affects like what you see on Predator...

Anyone who knows for sure- please speak up... especially if you have info.
sources for reference, as I'd like to be able to tell my players very bluntly the
differences- and have the material to back up those statements...

Later.

Jesse.
vanquer@email.msn.com
http://www.gryffon.com/leta
for all your role-playing needs
ICQ. 8004143

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 16:37:40 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Aslan & Vargr tactics

Walter G. Smith wrote:
> 

> Reminds me of the Kzinti from Star Fleet Battles.
> 
> It seems the Kzinti were a bunch of big space-kitties, divided into clans.

> Thus when they first tangled with other interstellar states, their starships
> came off badly by comparison. Simply put, there were weapons and
> tactics the Kzinti ship designers never allowed for. 

Better yet...read about the original (in a number of stories in Larry
Niven's Known Space series).

Seems they first encountered a human ship with a big honking laser
driving a lightsail (IIRC, and Niven _did_ take liberties with physics).
They had telepaths on board the Kzin ship, who reported that these
furless apes were _so_ stupid that they had ventured into interstellar
space with NO weapons!!!

Such easy prey, Ha! 

IIRC there was like a handful of badly burned Kzin who limped back home
in their mostly wrecked ship after the 'unarmed hairless apes' turned
their drive onto the attacking aliens... The Kzin really feared us for a
while there.


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:13:01 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Going Postal in the Army

>> Yeah, but on the shooting range, at any time, you could have turned and
shot
>> your fellow soldiers like ducks in a row.
>
>You know I thought of that (the concept, not doing it) when I was at good
ol
>Marine Corps Recruit Depot.   When we were on the firing line, I noticed
that
>quite a few of the line PMIs had sidearms.  : )

On the Army range at Ft. Wainwright, AK, there were men behind glass in a
tower (because of the cold).  If you were at the end of the line, you could
pop your buddy with one round and just switch to 3 round burst and fire
away.  Heck, you could light up the tower while you were at it.  A fortunate
soldier could crouch in the pit and be safe, unless the round arched into
the metal side of the pit (was made with a big metal pipe) and ricocheted
into him.

- --A Little Trip into Psychosis,
Clif

P.S.:  I think the control of ammo to protect against loonies is what made
"Pyle" in "Full Metal Jacket" a scarey fascination for most soldiers.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 20:22:15 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Aslan & Vargr tactics 

> Such easy prey, Ha! 
> 
> IIRC there was like a handful of badly burned Kzin who limped back home
> in their mostly wrecked ship after the 'unarmed hairless apes' turned
> their drive onto the attacking aliens... The Kzin really feared us for a
> while there.

The humans cut the Kzin ship apart with their comm laser, a big honkin laser
indeed.  No survivors.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:31:23 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Unresolved - repost

- --0__=rKtA2GlQiqWlDfhCYbv42xswWyuH2D4xRqUscMWPhe0EhNwjas8FAKmE
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline

Dear Folks -

??? What happened to the Unresolved posting - it got hashed in the mail??
What did Notes do to it?

My apologies to all. The full version is on my website, I'll try and repost
the important bit (for the benefit of Dominic Reynolds ;-):

CraftID: Unresolved G-Carrier, TL 15, Cr10,891,000
Hull:    100/240, Disp=10, Config=4SL, Armour=40G, Unloaded=78 tons,
         Loaded=130 tons
Power:   20/30, Fusion=75MW, Dur=10/30
Loco:    10/20, Std Grav, Thrust=196 tons, NOE=150kph, Cruise=450kph,
         Top=600kph, MaxAccel=0.5G
Commo:   Meson=Regional (500km), Radio=System (1,000 AU), Laser=Regional
         (500km), Maser=Regional (500km)
Sensors: Active EMS=Regional (500km), Pass EMS=Cont (5,000km), EMS
         Jam=Regional (500km), Densitometer=HiPen/1km, Neutrino=10kW,
         NAS=VLong (500m), Pass Audio=Dist (5km), Act Audio (pinger)=Dist
         (5km), Pass Mag=VDist (50km), Pass Environ, EM Mask, Headlights
         x 2, Holorecorder-15 (includes Ervmisbe's "Ride of the Valkiries"
         recording), Ervmisbe's Removable Flashing Blue Light x 1,
         ActObjScan=Diff, ActObjPin=Diff, PassObjScan=Rout,
         PassObjPin=Rout, PassEngScan=Diff, PassEngPin=Rout
Off:     Hardpoints=1
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
              Ammo Rds Pen/Attn Dmg MaxRng   AutoTgts DngrSpc Sig ROF
Fusion
- --0__=rKtA2GlQiqWlDfhCYbv42xswWyuH2D4xRqUscMWPhe0EhNwjas8FAKmE
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable


=A0RFX-15   0  ---  67/5     30 VDist(18)   4        45    Hi 160
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------=

Def:     Smoke Discharger x 10, Prismatic Aerosol x 10
Control: Computer=3D2 x 1, 1/fib x 1, Holo Link x 43, Holo HUD x 3 (all=
 ECP)
Accom:   Crew=3D3 (Cmdr, driver, gunner), Passenger=3D5, Seats=3DRoomy =
x 8,
         Env=3DBasic env, basic ls, ext ls, grav plates, inert comp
Other:   Fuel=3D27kl, Cargo=3D50kl (3.7 disp tons), ObjSize=3DAverage,
         EmLevel=3DNil

Note that this design reflects the recent TML errata that multiplies al=
l
damage point figures by 10.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
- -
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520=
)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.a=
u
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity=
"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
- -
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely thos=
e
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, th=
e
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
- -
=

- --0__=rKtA2GlQiqWlDfhCYbv42xswWyuH2D4xRqUscMWPhe0EhNwjas8FAKmE--

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:25:53 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

I'm kind of interested in the idea of using cards to resolve involved combat
scenarios, freeing up time for real role-playing...

At any rate, I'm taking Visual Basic this semester and might just work on a
program to take care of calculations for combat resolution.

I just need to figure out the best Traveller system and key it in.

- --Clif
- -----Original Message-----
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?


>sethkimmel said:
>
>>that's what I'm going to school for, but it's a hard sell what with the
>>competition with sports, electronics, girls/boys (gaming isn't "cool" when
>>you're looking to score...), etc. When I get a job, I'll lobby my
principal
>to
>>start a gaming club. At least I won't have to worry about parents
screaming
>>about demon worship like they did with D+D...
>
>
>Hey, at the high school I went to (not all that long ago) we weren't even
>allowed to have a wargaming club. We could still play RPGs or wargames
>though.
>
>It had nothing to do with the irrational cry of "satanism" (which was a
hell
>of alot less influential, at least here on the East Coast, than many folks
>think, in fact I only lost one gamer in my youth at the height of the
>satanism scare), it had more to do with the equally irrational cry of
>"teenage suicide".
>
>I don't know how many younger folks are out there on this list (I just
>turned 23 myself), but the next generation of gamers are not the young
>teenagers, they're the older teens and the early twenty-somethings. All of
>my peers are in this age group, and I've never, ever had a problem
>converting someone, male or female, hip or not, to roleplaying.
>
>Of course, this is all just personal observation. It may be based on
>personal charisma or something else... However, there are _plenty_ of
>roleplayers out there. One of the things that people have to realize,
>however, is that AD&D and White Wolf's WoD, being the most popular, are
most
>people's entry into the gaming world. As long as we have the folks (and it
>happens on this list and in GURPS circles _plenty_) who feel the need to
>point out how stupid and moronic these games (and the people who play them)
>are... as hobbyists, we'll be killing ourselves.
>
>As long as there are folks who down Magic (and other CCGs), AD&D and WoD
and
>their players, the hobby will remain completely divided. The hobby will
have
>no growth potential. People have to learn to accept that the hobby has
>changed, is changing, and will continue to change.
>
>Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
>"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
>"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
>     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:33:01 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] re: Hot Button

>"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote.
>
>>And why would that be?  I thought we had freedom of speech, or am I wrong
in
>>concluding that you seem to be saying it means REAL trouble, and not just
>>ascii flames?
>
>1) We don't have freedom of speech.  Unless this is the arrogant assumption
>that this list is totally American

Of course we don't.  That was my point in employing that sarcasm..

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:39:31 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

Wed, 6 Jan 1999 18:59:58 EST, Sethkimmel@aol.com
> How about
>
> "Kibbles and bits. Kibbles and bits. I gotta get me some kibbles and bits!"?

You could sugest it to that Vargr over there...

(The one with the FGMP...)

Note: if he starts making calling you "Cheeta" you might want
to run.  :-)

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:40:24 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

In a message dated 1/6/99 8:32:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, brclif@digital.net
writes:

<< I'm kind of interested in the idea of using cards to resolve involved combat
 scenarios, freeing up time for real role-playing...  >>

	I think that this is also a question of style--some of us like the "G"
part of RPG as much as the "RP".

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 19:42:07 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Online RPG Resources

On 01/06/99 at 06:34 PM,  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> said:

>OK, I know *somebody* here has to know where there's an online email
>dice  server.  So who knows where one is?

1.  www.pbm.com/dice/  -- the home of a good email die roller

2. www.irony.com/webdice.html -- home of a variety of dice rollers
                                 (among other good stuff)
                                 
Eris                            
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:43:23 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: StarCruiser

Did anyone see the online play by modem game that enabled you to fight other
2300 AD ships?

It was a few years ago, at least.  Unfortunately, I didn't have a computer,
so I never go to play it.

- --Clif
.
>
>Star Cruiser is a more playable game, IMO. Pity the NAM was broken.
>
>Dom
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:55:40 EST
From: RogerABarr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1367

Clif,

Someone could publish a best-seller called, "The Secret Life of Vargr", with
a vargr-style centerfold.  ;)

Funny you mention this. We have had a running joke about low class dirtside
bars and a Vargr "six-pack" on the dance stage.
;)

For some strange reason, my players have never taken advantage of the lower
prices of the Vargr prostitutes...
:)

Roger

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:55:13 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

Clif said:
>>Maybe because on a high TL battlefield such behavior would be (at the very
>>least) contrary to survival?
>
>Would it?  Has anyone playtested these "strategies" and wouldn't a "morale
>modifier" come into play after the howl?  Did pyschological warfare REALLY
>go out the window, since psyches are still a major factor in high TL
>battles?


Any "morale modifier" that would be a result of such an activity would be
balanced out by the fact that Vargr numbers would dwindle due to being
vaporized by high-powered plasma weapons.

>How about some kind of beam that made a "speaker" out of all of the solids
>of the ship, so that everyone on the ship would hear the howl surrounding
>them?  Like a backwards Laser microphone?  Instead of reading the
vibrations
>of a solid to "listen" it could MAKE vibrations in a solid to "speak"...


I could think of a couple of things that the Vargr would do with such a
technology that would be much more useful. I'm sure the Vargr would think
that other uses would be much better.

>Why does technological evolution have to occur in parallels?  Couldn't the
>Vargr have non-game-imbalancing technologies that the humanoids don't yet
>understand?  Only if your players were a bunch of Vargr "on the inside"
>would you have to come up with some kind of explanation for the technology.


Maybe. The concept is pretty much moot, however. We're not talking about two
empires that just met last week. We're talking about two empires that have
been in contact for hundreds of years.

>Military textbooks had the common attack stategy of communist forces down
to
> a diagram(punch a hole through the center of the perimeter and fight your
>way out while another part of your force flanks, I believe it was).
Knowing
>the strategy didn't make them any less of a threat.


Yes, but: punch and flank is a million miles away from "howl and get picked
off by enemies".

>Remember "Maverick" in "Top Gun"?  Goddess Kelly McGillis tried to teach him
>to follow NATO strategy but he, instead, lived up to his name.  He was just
>an individual playing the cowboy.  The majority follows the standard
>strategy.


Hmmm... I stand by my statement even in light of your confusing Top Gun
analogy: If Vargr always chose the "howl and run" tactic you outlined, they
would be predictable AND ineffectual. Not caring whether or not your buddies
get fragged as a result of instinct is kind of silly. As a result, they
would not revel in their instinct but try to suppress it. If not, they'd
lose by rapidly dwindling numbers.


>The thuds and booms of artillery and tank rounds makes for good
>chest-beating and suppressed forces often yelled at each other.


The booms of artillery and tank rounds also have another, more practical
purpose. That purpose is blowing up the enemy. The main purpose of tanks and
artillery is not bravado, as in my analogy, but destruction of vehicles,
structures and personnel.

>A classic scene is the V.C. on the wire in "Apocalypse Now".  "G.I.,
>Fuc-BOOM!"


An example from a movie that was intended to highlight the madness of war
does _not_ support your argument. Personally, I always thought that sequence
illustrated a severely wounded soldier's attempt at dying quickly. Again, it
has nothing to do with my "chest beating" example.

>Some dogs are already smart.  Vargr would be much smarter dogs.


Yes, so smart as to be _sentient_. Sentience, to me at least, indicates that
they have many options open to them. Not merely one dictated directly and
shallowly from their canine ancestors.

>How many are familiar with the Kafer in 2300 AD?  They basically acted like
>Roaches (after which they were named, in the German).  Slow, at first,
until
>you threatened them.  THEN the battle would get intense!  (Not that little
>ol' Roaches try to fight off a human...)


No. Kafer did not act like roaches. Not one bit. They acted like creatures
with a low degree of sentient intelligence. However, when they felt
threatened, their brain chemistry would begin to change, and they'd get
smarter and smarter. They were a dull-brained sentient race that got more
intelligent when threatened. However, despite the fact that they were
relatively stupid by human standards, they still built weapons of high
technology and hovercraft, and all kinds of nifty gadgets. They weren't
animals when they weren't in danger, they just weren't as intelligent or
organized when they weren't in danger.

>Whether this is fully accurate or not(I think that it is probably not the
>best analogy), Kafer had a "strategy" that had to be learned.  They rarely
>broke out of this "strategy".  Now, it might be argued that Kafer aren't
>"sentient" during the first few rounds of combat...


No, they are quite sentient, just not extremely bright. There is a
difference. They were capable of building vehicles, weapons, and starships.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:29:53 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Fw: Stratfor Global Intelligence report for 1999

Hey everyone,
I got sent this on another list.  I've cut most of it out, but I've kept
the full text myself.  It may be of interest for the future history.  I
hope it's worth the bandwidth.  Feel free to rain on my parade if you think
it's not....

The people who wrote it seem to be a corporate intelligence outfit, very
likely ex-CIA.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

> Global Intelligence Update
> Red Alert
> January 4, 1999
> 
> 1999 Annual Forecast: A New and Dangerous World
> 
> 
> SUMMARY
> 
> *  Russia will begin the process of recreating old Soviet empire
> in 1999.  The most important question of 1999: will Ukraine
> follow Belarus into federation with Russia?
> 
> *  Russia and China will be moving into a closer, primarily anti-
> American alliance in 1999.
> 
> *  Asian economies will not recover in 1999.  Japan will see
> further deterioration.  So will China.  Singapore and South Korea
> will show the strongest tendency toward recovery.
> 
> *  China will try to contain discontent over economic policies by
> increasing repression not only on dissidents, but the urban
> unemployed and unhappy small business people.  Tensions will
> rise.
> 
> *  Asia will attempt to protect itself from U.S. economic and
> political pressures.  Asian economic institutions, like an Asian
> Monetary Fund, will emerge in 1999.
> 
> *  The Serbs, supported by the Russians, will test the United
> States in Kosovo.  There is increasing danger of a simultaneous
> challenge from Serbia and Iraq, straining U.S. military
> capabilities dramatically.
> 
> *  The main question in Europe will be Germany's reaction to the
> new Russia.  The Germans will try to avoid answering that
> question for most of the year.
> 
> *  Latin America appears ready to resume its economic expansion,
> beginning late in 1999.
> 
> 
> FORECAST
> 
> The Post-Cold War world quietly ended in 1998.  A new era will
> emerge in 1999. It will appear, for a time, to be not too
> dissimilar to what came before it, but looks can be deceiving.
> In fact, we have entered an era with a fundamentally different
> global dynamic than the previous era.  We should not think of the
> period 1989-1998 as an era.  It was an interregnum, a pause
> between two eras.  1999 will see a more conventional, natural
> world, in which other great powers in the world will unite to try
> to block American power.  In 1998 the United States worried about
> Serbia, Iraq and North Korea.  In 1999, the United States will be
> much more concerned with Russia, China, France and Japan.  The
> world will not yet be a truly dangerous place, but it will begin
> the long descent toward the inevitable struggle between great
> powers.

< lots of stuff snipped >

> a new and dangerous world.  1999 is the first of many years of
> increasing tension and conflict involving not only minor players,
> but also the world's great powers.  It is the beginning of what
> will prove to be a tense first decade in the 21st century.
> 
> ___________________________________________________
> 
> To receive free daily Global Intelligence Updates,
> sign up on the web at http://www.stratfor.com/mail/,
> or send your name, organization, position, mailing
> address, phone number, and e-mail address to
> alert@stratfor.com
> ___________________________________________________
> 
> STRATFOR, Inc.
> 504 Lavaca, Suite 1100
> Austin, TX 78701
> Phone: 512-583-5000
> Fax: 512-583-5025
> Internet: http://www.stratfor.com/
> Email: info@stratfor.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 10:21:19 +0800
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Simulations (was re: Texan Secession)

Ahhh good a discussion of semantics:

There seems to be a conceptual confusion here.  What is it for something to
be a 'simulation' as  'simulation' rather than (say) merely a game?  You
need to know what you are trying to simulate and in what way.  It obviously
cannot be wholly identical (for then at the very least it would not be a
simulation any more).  I suggest that Chess is a simulation of nothing!
Though it may have originated in some highly abstract war-game.

Simulate 
1 - to assume falsely the appearance of signs of (anything); to feign,
pretend, counterfeit imitate; to profess or suggest (anything) falsely.

2- To have the external features of to present a strong resemblance to
(something)

etc. (OED Vol. ix, Si-St, p. 68)

In what way does 'king maker' ( A game I very much enjoyed, like Ludo and
snakes and ladders) in any way give even the appearance of reality?
Consider just a few possibilities about what some wargames are supposed to
simulate?  Command and control, commuunications, (usually the best they can
hope to acieve, and the least satisfactory), effects of various weapons
against various targets, etc. (usuallly crude statistiucal moddelling - at
best) The claim is usually that in some salient way, and in a way which is
pertinent to the objective, that the game is focussed upon, the game
imitates reality.  ( it is not even a matter of prioritizing the parts of
the simulation)  

I suggest that if kingmaker can be considered a simulation of the war of
the roses then: first, squad leader is an simulation of command and control
at the company level!
Second, there is nothing that cannot count as a simulation of something
else, and with Thales we say that everything is water.  Possibly not
incorrect, but then to make the claim that something is a simulation is to
make no claim at all. ( A simulation as opposed to what?).  This simply
robs the concept of any substantive content.  

*_Kingmaker_ happened to focus it's simulation on political maneuvering
*and the possible effects of outside forces on the war, rather than placing
*the detail priority on combat, logistics, or movement. It's not a detailed 
*medieval combat simulator, nor was it intended to be.

The level of abstraction in kingmaker is so high, and the mechanics so
clearly arbitrary (Forgive the slip into loaded language), that I suggest
it is not even vagulely a simulation of the political machinations of the
powers struggles in 15 century England.  It is simply a beer and pretzles
game -  and a good one at that.


Cheers

		Colin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:42:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Happy Space:1999

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 12/31/98 4:17:15 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> brclif@digital.net writes:
>
> << After that, you might want to write the Horror Channel which calls itself 
> a
>  Sci-Fi channel by dropping them an email asking for more "Space:1999 in
>  '99".
>  
>  program@www.scifi.com
>   >>
>
> Another fun series to lobby for is the British UFO series by Gerry 
> Anderson...

There's quite a bit of reason to "connect" the two series. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1372
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, January 6 1999     Volume 1998 : Number 1373



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller World Building-Biomes
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Surveillance
Re: Chron-ology (was Alternative Religions: Beyond Terra
Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)
re: Simulations
Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)
Re: StarCruiser
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: Aslan & Vargr tactics 
Re: oh no; please not again...
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: Emperial weapon laws
re: Simulations
Re: Weapons and Such
Re: Aslan & Vargr tactics
Re: Aslan & Vargr tactics
Re: style
Re: Huh?
The Subsidized Merchant
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:03:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller World Building-Biomes

In mail you write:

> Let me do it the other way around: Climate zones, with the biomes that are
> usually found in them.
>
> Mean annual Temperature (degrees C)
>  Below -15 Polar
> -15 to -5  Arctic-Alpine
> -5 to   5  Cold Temperate
>  5 to  15  Warm Temperate
>  15 to 25  Subtropical
>  Above 25  Tropical

We'll want to add climates at both extremes.

> Mean annual Precipitation (cm)
>   50 or below  Arid
>   50 to 100     Dry
>   100 to 200    Moderate
>   200 to 300    Humid
>   300 to 400    Wet
>   400 or above  Very wet
>   Any           Wet Soil (Discontinuous or seasonal areas of 
>                 shallow water)

I don't *think* we need to add a higher rainfall. Places like the
Olympic peninsula (temperate rainforest) and some tropical areas are
already about as wet as it's *possible* to get (rather like Venus as
envisioned by Ray Bradbury and others. Eternal rain....)

> Temperature/ Rainfall combinations not listed do not exist, since the
> maximum humidity of the air drops rapidly with temperature.
>
> Climate Zone:                   Biomes
> Polar/ Arid                     Barrens
> Arctic-Alpine/ Arid             Barrens, Arctic-alpine desert, Tundra
> Arctic-alpine/ Dry              Tundra, Arctic-alpine desert
> Arctic-alpine/ wetsoil          Tundra, Bog
> Cold Temperate/ Arid            Barrens, Semidesert scrub, 
>                                 Temperate shrub, Taiga
> Cold Temperate/ Dry             Taiga
> Cold Temperate/moderate         Taiga, Elfin woodland
> Cold Temperate/Wet Soil         Bog.
> Warm Temperate/Arid             Barrens, WarmTemperate desert, semidesert  
>                         scrub, Temperate Shrub
> Warm Temperate/dry              Temperate shrub, temperate grass,          
>                         Temperate woodland
> Warm Temperate/Moderate         Temperate Forest (Deciduous or evergreen)
> Warm Temperate/Humid            Temperate Rain forest
> Warm Temperate/Wet soil         Marsh,  Temperate Swamp forest
> SubTropical/ Arid               Barrens, Warm temperate desert,tropical    
>                         desert
>                                 Temperate shrub, Thorn scrub
> SubTropical/ Dry                Temperate grassland, Thorn scrub
>                                 Temperate woodland, Savanna, Thorn forest
> SubTropical/ Moderate           Temperate Grassland, Woodland, Forest 
>                                 Thorn forest, Tropical seasonal forest
> SubTropical/ humid              Temperate forest, temperate rain forest
>                                 Tropical seasonal or rain forest
> SubTropical/ Wet                Tropical rain forest
> SubTropical/ Wet Soil           Temperate Swamp forest, 
>                                 Tropical swamp forest, Mangrove swamp
> Tropical/ Arid                  Barrens, Tropical desert
> Tropical/ dry                   Thorn scrub, Savanna
> Tropical/ Moderate              Savannah, thorn forest, tropical seasonal
> Tropical/ humid                 Tropical seasonal or rain forest
> Tropical/ wet                   Tropical rain forest
> Tropical/ very wet              Tropical Rain forest
> Tropical/ wetsoil               Tropical swamp forest, mangrove swamp
>
> 0. Barrens              Bare rock or sand (Ice, in cold areas). 
>                         No visible life.
> 1. Arctic-Alpine desert:        Scattered lichens on rock or ice
> 2. Tundra:              Lichens, mosses, grasses, some shrubs
> 3. Semidesert scrub:    Small shrubs and grasses (widely scattered in 
>                         more arid regions)

Central Washington and Eastern Oregon. :-)

> 4. Temperate shrub:     Diverse shrub community; like stunted forest
> 5. Taiga                Evergreen needle-leafed forest.
> 6. Bog:                 Cold, wet-soil community.
> 7. Elfin woodland:      Dense evergreen thickets, heavy lichen and moss    
>                 growth
> 8. Warm Temperate Desert Small leaved or Spiny shrubs (e.g Cactus)
> 9. Temperate Grassland  Plains, prairies, Pampas
> 10.Temperate woodland   Small trees in open spacing, much undergrowth
> 11.Temperate Forest     Evergreen or deciduous
> 12.Temperate rain forest Giant trees or smaller evergreens in wet          
>                 temperate climates
> 13. Tropical desert     Sparse grasses.
> 14. Thorn scrub         Dense communities of spiny shubs and small trees
> 15. Savanna             Tropical grassland, scattered trees
> 16. Thorn forest        Larger spiny trees
> 17. Tropical seasonal forest 
>                         Monsoon forest, with wet/dry rather than 
>                         warm/cold cycles
> 18. Tropical rain forest
>                         Large forests, many species, unrooted plants       
>                         supported on trees, vines
>
> Wet-soil communities
> 19. Bog                 : Cold climates. peat. Frozen much of the year.
> 20. Marsh               : Principally grasses and shrubs, few trees.
> 21. Temperate swamp forest  : Freshwater (e.g. Everglades) 
> 22. Tropical swamp forest   : Freshwater
> 23. Mangrove swamps     : Salt tolerant swamp forest 
>
> Aquatic communities
>         River           
>         Lake
>         Estuarine & marine mudflat: Coastal shallows
>         Sandy Littoral          Ocean Beaches
>         Rocky Littoral          Marine cliffsides
>         Marine coastal          Ocean floor, lighted. Kelp beds and coral  
>                                 reefs

I'd say there's a temperate distinction here. Also, ocean communities
tend to be dominated by things like dissolved nutrients. That's why the
big fish harvests are in polar areas, where the nutrients carried by
deep ocean currents come to the surface.

>         Marine Benthic          Ocean floor, dark zone
>         Marine Pelagic          Open sea. 
>                                 (further divided into lighted zone, dark   
>                         zone, and near-bottom. 

And as I noted: "Deep Ocean Vent" :-)

If dealing with *sufficiently* alien life forms, it may be possible to
add a few biomes or to shift the temp/precip ranges some. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:57:17 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

>In a message dated 1/6/99 2:48:21 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Sethkimmel@aol.com
>writes:
>
><<
> << I would suggest that we all go out and become middle school teachers,
>>


I do teach middle school (7th grade) and I would advise most of you not to
quit your day jobs.

Thomas Vickers

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:21:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Surveillance

In mail you write:

>>Bruce is absolutely right.  I haven't seen the Washington films, but did
>>see Patriot Games.
>>The footage in Patriot Games is legit, <snip> And the resolution isn't that
> great, just as Bruce said,
>>people's locations....
>
> But in the movie the resolution WAS good enough that you could watch one of
> the SAS slit the throat of a man.
>
> Also, you COULD HAVE seen one of them get amorous with a woman, which was my
> claim.

Read the book(s). In "Patriot Games" Clancy makes a point that the
satellite images could *not* resolve things like faces. A key point was
when someone noticed a female terrorist sunbathing, and there was a
comment that the analysts had determined (in their spare time) what
size breasts a woman had to have for the satellite to be able to show
her as having visible cleavage. As I recall, it was fairly large. 

This turns out to be a critical point as it lets them identify a
terrorist group. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:45:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Chron-ology (was Alternative Religions: Beyond Terra

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
> [Most of excellent post on chron-ology snipped]
>
>>Likewise hour will mean the standard 3600 second period, while
>>some other term will be used for the subdivisions of the sol.
>>I'm leaning towards "chron" as the term. For convenience, a sol
>>will always be divided evenly into chrons. How many will depend
>>on the actual length of the sol, as well as on how conveniently
>>the sol can be divided into work shifts and the like. Ten is a
>>bad number in most cases because only 2 and 5 go into it evenly,
>>and 2 shifts or 5 shifts per sol seem unlikely. 12 and 24 are
>>good because they divide by 3, 4, 6, etc.
>
>    TNE suggests a standard period of 4 hours for work, travel, or
> sleep. (8 hour night's sleep, 8 hour work day, for instance, are
> multiples). In ancient times, the day and night were each divided
> into three watches. The Romans divided each watch into fourths of
> one hour each. 
>    Why not have the scout services, when they measure the sol of
> a world in standard hours, round to the nearest integer divisible
> by four, and divide the sol into that many chrons. This would
> make a chron approximately one standard hour in length, but
> variable depending on the world.
>    Humans are adapted to a 24 chron world: Worlds with 20 chron
> sols would seem awkwardly short, and worlds with 28 chron solds
> would seem awkwardly long. Worlds with more or fewer chrons per
> sol might have day/night cycles out of phase with human
> sleep/rest cycles.

I'm working on a full article on this. Shift/watch lengths in the real
world range from as little as 4 hours (Navy) up to 12 hours (some
medical and industrial workers). 

Differing sol lengths are a factor. But research has also shown that
the average human when cut off from cues about the passage of time
tends to settle into a *28* hour cycle. But lighting changes,
especially the equivalent of "bright sunlight" will "reset" this
internal clock. 

I suspect that humans can adapt to sols are short as 12 hours and as
long as 30+ hours. By the time you get to 36 hours, it may make more
sense to have two "work days" per sol. 

Someplace like the moon could either ignore the sol, or, if they do
need to worry about it, they might divide it up into a convenient
number of sub-sols. 

>>Going in the other direction, given the nature of the Imperial
>>calendar, I suspect that month will be relegated to a strictly
>>local reckoning of sols.
>
> Or use a convention, something like a "month" is 30 days. A
> common unit in financial reporting might be a quarter of 91 days
> (or 92 days, if the fourth quarter).

That's getting into things like "fiscal years". Which are likely to be
Imperial year based, unless there are industries (such as agriculture)
tied to the anno. 

And remember that 30 days or 91 days is apt to be some odd number of
sols. 

>>Anno will be the local year (plural is annum).

Oops. I may have that backwards...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:27:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)

In mail you write:

> This varies so widely from place to place there can be no real answer.
> Even in the U.S. (never mind the rest of the planet) in Boston I'd be
> arrested for carrying a gun on general principles, licensed or not.

Well, there *are* arguments as to whether or not Boston is "civilized".
:-)

But in half the states in the US, open carry is *legal*. 

> In
> Alaska there are some places where only a fool would go out without a hefty
> weapon for bear protection, and I once read that there is, in fact, a law
> against camping in some areas of Alaske without a gun handy.

And stopping a hungry polar bear requires something more than your
typical "hunting rifle"!

>>  And finally, what sort of restrictions are there on explosives?
>>Not only bombs and hand grenades, but HEAP rounds for hand-held weapons;
>>these are by definition also explosives.\
>
> Dont forget TNT, nitroglycerine, ammonium nitrate, tritium, gasoline, etc
> etc.  Generally, weapons are restricted if they can be called "Military
> Grade".  This varies somewhat, but the line is generally drawn at fully
> automatic slug throwers larger than 7mm, vehicle mounted semi-automatic
> cannon larger than 40mm, Any fusion or plasma weapons, and anything like
> artillery.  Note that this gives Imperial citizenry the authority to own
> single shot rocket propelled grenades, direct fire rocket launchers,
> handheld lasers of any type, hand grenades, large caliber rifles (remember
> the "crunch gun?"), mount a 35mm cannon on the ATV, and many other
> permutations.  This is mainly because the Imperium is stilll a wild place
> in some areas and such weapons are needed to "tame" the local wildlife
> frequently.  Note that the rules change for starship mounted weapons.
>
> Explosives are another story entirely.  Aside from restrictions on weapons
> of mass destruction - which is taken very seriously IMTU - there are very
> few Imperial restrictions on what you can carry around that goes "Boom".
> Someone carrying tritium or enriched uranium would be scrutinized, but as
> soon as the records showing their history of building fission power plants
> is produced, they will be unmolested.

Or if they are a civil engineer working on *big* projects where
"nuclear demolition" charges are used. Given nuke dampers, the use of
nukes in civil engineering is almost dead certain. It's *much* simpler
to place a medium sized nuke, and then clean up with a damper than it
is to set off *thousands* of smaller charges (or one *big* charge of
conventional explosives). 

On the other hand, if you are Joe Redneck, who has been known to hang
out with "questionable" organizations, the local law enforcement types
are going to go over you with a fine tooth comb.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:01:33 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Simulations

Colin Hutchinson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<snip>
In what way does 'king maker' ( A game I very much enjoyed, like Ludo and
snakes and ladders) in any way give even the appearance of reality?
Consider just a few possibilities about what some wargames are supposed to
simulate?  Command and control, commuunications, (usually the best they can
hope to acieve, and the least satisfactory), effects of various weapons
against various targets, etc. (usuallly crude statistiucal moddelling - at
best) The claim is usually that in some salient way, and in a way which is
pertinent to the objective, that the game is focussed upon, the game
imitates reality.  ( it is not even a matter of prioritizing the parts of
the simulation)  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There are entire classes of simulations that aren't wargames. _Road to
the White House_ is no wargame, but I've heard it used in a PoliSci class.

Colin again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<snip>
Second, there is nothing that cannot count as a simulation of something
else, and with Thales we say that everything is water.  Possibly not
incorrect, but then to make the claim that something is a simulation is to
make no claim at all. ( A simulation as opposed to what?).  This simply
robs the concept of any substantive content.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This paragraph makes very little sense to me. You can claim anything
is a simulation, and then of course your claim will be qualified with
how close to reality it comes, and what is abstracted. I have yet to
see a WWII Tank Combat simulator that came with a collection of
working full-scale armored combat vehicles.

Colin again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The level of abstraction in kingmaker is so high, and the mechanics so
clearly arbitrary (Forgive the slip into loaded language), that I suggest
it is not even vagulely a simulation of the political machinations of the
powers struggles in 15 century England.  It is simply a beer and pretzles
game -  and a good one at that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
At least we agree on something - it is an interesting game.

And the assembly of political factions, the dichotomy between
peacably functional organs of government and internicine slaughters
and the continual pressure of foriegn and internal crises had no bearing
on the events of 14th c England, and thus a GAME that requires
someone to balance these factors (or at least allow for them) will
serve no purpose to understanding a historical reading of these
events?

To the nit-picker, the most strenuosly researched simulation is nothing
but a game.

Beer and pretzels? I'm more a Soda and Chips person myself...<G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 21:56:33 -0500
From: "johannes" <johannes@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)

Here's how things work in my part of the world:  State law requires that any
adult resident be issued a permit to carry a concealed weapon, unless
they're a convicted felon or have a history of mental problems.  So I have
the right to do so, and even own a weapon perfectly suitable for such
purposes.  However, I don't carry it, and in fact haven't even bothered to
put in the paperwork for a permit, because I don't need to to carry a
weapon.  In theory this is how things should work: it's there if you need
it,  responsible individuals decide their own need.

The problem is that as population density (numbers, not IQ) rises, the
number of irresponsible individuals also increases.  Which means more
gun-toting yahoos, and more innocent bystanders to get shot.  Most US
firearms mores, and the laws enforcing those mores, are based on a low
population density.  In those areas where the density is higher, more
restrictions are imposed on firearms ownership and use, as well as other
aspects of society (zoning, traffic etc.)

Traveller implications:  on worlds generated by the standard random process,
higher population worlds tend to have higher law levels.  Those worlds with
low law levels either are undergoing long-term civil unrest with large areas
essentially abandoned by the authorities, or else are tenaciously clinging
to 'frontier' traditions.  And as for the existance of Handgun Control type
organizations in the Imperium?  Highly unlikely.  Such pressure groups
depend on the ability to mobilize public opinion, about which the Nobility
does not give a damn.  Now, it's possible that the consort of a high-ranking
noble, crippled by an assassination attempt, could make it her life's work
to rid the galaxy of personally owned weapons, but this would be more a case
of behind the scenes lobbying rather than the mass media campaigns of the
present.

John

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 21:08:32 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: StarCruiser

THere is a PBEM starcruiser  game now.
We are in the middle of our second battle, but I am sure new comers would be
welcome in the new fight.

We use a version of the SC rules called Star Cruiser Light

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/9292/scl.htm

Oh yeah, No one HATES NAM more than me.

TV

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 21:17:01 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

Bringing the Kafer into Traveller
>>might be fun, but difficult to do.



The original reason that I bought the Kafer sourcebook in the Mid 80's was
due to the fact that I thought it was "Early Traveller" timeline and the
Kafers might be the Vegans.

After some mail from Marc and the discussions of the 2300 list it seemed
like the the Vegan Aut. District was just what would happen to the Kafers if
2300 lead to the ROM.

TV

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 21:19:29 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Aslan & Vargr tactics 

>The humans cut the Kzin ship apart with their comm laser, a big honkin
laser indeed.  No survivors.
>

The lesson that the Kzin eventually learned was 1) humans gave up war
because they were SO good at it and 2) the humans were fighting a war for
survival (total war against kzin) where as the Kzin were just out to conquer
us for slaves.

They got whooped bad due to their limited world view.

TV

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 19:20:56 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: oh no; please not again...

  What? Was that a potted petunia coming out of Jump that I heard?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 21:24:52 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

>
>No. Kafer did not act like roaches. Not one bit. They acted like creatures
>with a low degree of sentient intelligence. However, when they felt
>threatened, their brain chemistry would begin to change, and they'd get
>smarter and smarter. They were a dull-brained sentient race that got more
>intelligent when threatened. However, despite the fact that they were
>relatively stupid by human standards,

Don't forget, that after repeated stimulation, Kafers could become
permenantly intelligent, pretty much a match for humans.
A stimulated (intelligent) kafer was far more dangerous than his human
counterpart, very crafty and determined.


>>Whether this is fully accurate or not(I think that it is probably not the
>>best analogy), Kafer had a "strategy" that had to be learned.  They rarely
>>broke out of this "strategy".  Now, it might be argued that Kafer aren't
>>"sentient" during the first few rounds of combat...

THey were just "confused" during the first few rounds.  Then they got nasty.
They had no standard strategy, except "live long enough to get smart"

TV

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:18:50 -0500
From: "johannes" <johannes@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Emperial weapon laws

IMTU, I've ruled that ANYONE honorably discharged from Imperial service may
continue to wear the service uniform, with appropriate badges to indicate
non-active status.  Weapons recieved as mustering-out benefits are
considered presentation models, as such not subject to local weapons
restrictions.  Of course, if you misbehave they can be confiscated, and
naturally they're not replacable.  And Imperial Nobles, as well as their
retainers, are likewise exempt.  The consequences of triggering a diplomatic
incident are assumed to prevent abuse of this privilege.  Finally, permits
can be obtained to carry just about anything, for a suitably exorbitant fee
(plus bonding, insurance, inspections etc.).

John

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 11:25:31 +0800
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: re: Simulations

Bah Humbug! :)

Cheers.

(We should argue more often)


'ave a good one

Colin		

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 21:35:37 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Weapons and Such

And as for the existance of Handgun Control type
>organizations in the Imperium?  Highly unlikely.


I have to agree. Here in Texas it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon
without  a permit, but you can get one.  The reason some of us don't get a
permit is due to the fact that carrying a concealed weapon is only a
misdemeanor. (I swear my lawyer gave me that advice).  Then again I never
carry a concealed weapon unless I travel.  So, there is probably no Imperial
Task force to catch handgun carriers, even if it is illegal.  It is just too
much trouble and the legal ramifications are probably nil, unless you have
600 misdemeanor arrests for carrying that concealed snub pistol.

TV

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 19:42:21 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Aslan & Vargr tactics

>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>Subject: Re: Aslan & Vargr tactics
...
>Seems they first encountered a human ship with a big honking laser
>driving a lightsail (IIRC, and Niven _did_ take liberties with physics).

  A photon (reaction) drive, IIRC, "Angels Pencil" or somesuch?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 21:50:06 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Aslan & Vargr tactics

On 01/06/99 at 08:22 PM,  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> said:

>> Such easy prey, Ha! 
>> 
>> IIRC there was like a handful of badly burned Kzin who limped back home
>> in their mostly wrecked ship after the 'unarmed hairless apes' turned
>> their drive onto the attacking aliens... The Kzin really feared us for a
>> while there.

>The humans cut the Kzin ship apart with their comm laser, a big
>honkin laser indeed.  No survivors.

Yeah, but eventually the Kzin pushed humanity back to Earth and *almost*
defeated us before we relearned how to fight. Then there was recovering the
colonies, discovering what the Kzin had been doing with their "food", buying
(or was it stealing) the secret to FTL flight, dealing with the Outies and the
Puppeteers, and lots and lots of back and forth wars with the Kzin...

Niven's long story arc is excellent reading that covers dozens of books and
stories.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 19:53:26 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: style

>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: Re: style
...
>Elric! and Legends are the two better examples, Elric especially as it is
>B&W, and clear.

  Hmm, I was too busy playing Titan to get a look at the copy of Elric! at
the table, but the Traveller Book appears to have about 15-20% of the space
devoted to artwork and diagrams of various sorts. Let's assume that B&W vs.
colour makes no real difference in function (and as for covers, G:T says a
lot about how the people at SJG assessed the marketing trade-offs), and the
question really comes down to how _much_ art, as upgrading to current styles
and standards in B&W art would seem to be a given.

  So, is 20% too much or too little, and where should the line be drawn?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 19:53:47 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Huh?

>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Re: Huh?
>
>You call Texas taking up arms against the rest of the country so that they
>can enforce their secession a "peacetime police operation"?

  In that case, and bearing in mind the very good point that was raised
about atrocities being useful for solidifying popular support:

          Is it possible for anyone with any grasp of real-world politics to
        talk about detonating nuclear weapons on their own national soil as
        part of a _civil war_?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:54:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: The Subsidized Merchant

For those interested in purchasing or selling Traveller products:

I have recently "Gone Large" with my trader page project.  Some of you
have seen this web page where I list (mostly) Traveller gaming items
for sale and wanted.  Well, it just grew.  I'm accepting posts from
anyone who would like to list items they want to sell or have been
seeking.  I have broken the listing down into categories so that you
won't have to wade through a big table to find things.  And I have
added over one hundred new items today.  Listings are free, as are
links if you'll reciprocate.  I'm doing this as a fun project while
I'm unemployed, but I don't guaranty to keep it going forever ;-] 
Comments / suggestions about the page are appreciated.  Thanks!

http://surf.to/traveller-trader
            -or-
http://members.xoom.com/ProCam/trader.html



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 21:59:24 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

On 01/06/99 at 05:57 PM,  "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com> said:

>> << I would suggest that we all go out and become middle school teachers,

>I do teach middle school (7th grade) and I would advise most of you
>not to quit your day jobs.

Ain't *that* the truth! ;->  Don't you just love the little darlin's?

I put in 5 years with 7th and 8th graders before burning out, so you
have my empathy.  Now I teach adults...much saner! ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1373
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, January 7 1999     Volume 1998 : Number 1374



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Aslan & Vargr tactics
Fw: Stratfor Global Intelligence report for 1999
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Aslan & Vargr tactics
Re: Stratfor Global Intelligence report for 1999
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1373
Re: Star density and exploration
Maps?
Re: Weapons and Such 
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)
Re: GURPS Starship Crew Questions
Re: Stealth as a Tool
Kafer in Traveller?  Mooo.
Re: Stratfor Global Intelligence report for 1999
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Traveller World Building-Biomes
DGP World Builders Handbook
Re: Weapons and Such 
Education (was: Traveller's Last Chance?)
Re: Traveller World Building-Biomes
Re(2): DGP World Builders Handbook
Re: Maps?
Book Recommendation: Red Mars
Re: On Calendars
IW Alien Races...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 22:07:12 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Aslan & Vargr tactics

On 01/06/99 at 09:19 PM,  "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com> said:

>>The humans cut the Kzin ship apart with their comm laser, a big honkin
>laser indeed.  No survivors.
>>

>The lesson that the Kzin eventually learned was 1) humans gave up war
>because they were SO good at it and 2) the humans were fighting a war
>for survival (total war against kzin) where as the Kzin were just out
>to conquer us for slaves.

...and food.  It's very clear humans were a favorite hunting prey in
the Kzin view of things.  ;->

>They got whooped bad due to their limited world view.

Yep, but the poor devils kept retooling and trying again.  It was
the one thing that kept the humans from turning on themselves once
they rebreed for the "warrior genes" 

Ob Traveller...maybe if there had been a really formidable opponent
for the 3I they would have concentrated on them and not turned on
themselves.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 20:15:44 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Fw: Stratfor Global Intelligence report for 1999

...
>> *  Russia and China will be moving into a closer, primarily anti-
>> American alliance in 1999.

  This kind of exemplifies the value of this summary, IMHO...

  BTW, if the 2300 list is up you could liven things up by lobbing
it over there :)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:21:30 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

>Ain't *that* the truth! ;->  Don't you just love the little darlin's?
>
>I put in 5 years with 7th and 8th graders before burning out, so you
>have my empathy.  Now I teach adults...much saner! ;->


I student taught highschool and loved it, now I teach Texas history to
backwoods rejects here  in Texas.  These kids are the real life "trailer
trash" you all laugh about.
Life is rough for them and they take it all out at school.
Of course now that I am Dept. Head, I am pushing for a reduced teaching
load, gotta take care the History department you know.

TV

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:23:19 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Aslan & Vargr tactics

>Ob Traveller...maybe if there had been a really formidable opponent
>for the 3I they would have concentrated on them and not turned on
>themselves.


I like that idea, but then again I see the Fractures in the 2300 timeline.
Humanity had a foe, but the allied nations kept getting in each other's way.
But I do think the 3I would have benefited from really good opponent.

TV

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:28:10 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Stratfor Global Intelligence report for 1999

>  BTW, if the 2300 list is up you could liven things up by lobbing
>it over there :)

We need none of that, thank you very much. We are content to squabble and
sulk on our own:)

tv

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 23:36:13 EST
From: IrvEdwMac@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1373

hey,   what happened to #1371?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 23:29:39 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Star density and exploration

>I need to have the characters in my upcoming game be able to go to some
>unvisited systems and I figure that the easiest way to do that is to find
>some stars that were not practically reachable until Jump-6 drives were
>developed.

A jump-1 drive can go anywhere a Jump-6 drive can, it just takes longer.

If you want an uninhabited system just pick one that has a population of
zero. Or do you mean one that has *never* been visited before? This is
unlikely in the Traveller background, especially if it's one the players
can easily get to in their Far Trader. If it really is unvisited there is
probably a good reason for it; like anyone who lands there blows up or
something.

Why does it have to be "unvisited" anyway? Why can't something new happen
on a planet that has been visited many times? Just because a system has
been visited, or even inhabited for thousands of years, doesn't mean
everything about it will be known.

If you really must have an unvisited system you could make it a rogue
planet passing through known space at a high fraction of C. This wouldn't
have been around before to be visited, and would require pretty hefty
manuever drives to rendezvous with anyway. This idea is from a Larry Niven
short story.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:04:45 -0700
From: Adahma <adahma@starport.org>
Subject: Maps?

Is there such a thing floating around in any available form, a map, possibly
wall size, of the "known" Traveller universe?

Thanks,
Adahma

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 21:19:56 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Weapons and Such 

>First - for the USA side of things (and perhaps more generally), my
...

  Hey - it's your problem - _you_ guys sort it out :)

...
>your ideas about weapons necessity, laws and ethics in the Traveller Imperium.
...

  I would strongly support the thesis that the OTU does leave everything
except weapons of mass destruction to the member worlds; the Navy (both
Imperial & its' Colonial adjuncts) is the only genuinely significant
military power in the Imperium*, and getting stuck in administering
things that the Imperium has chosen to avoid is a non-starter.

 (* _not_ political - if a sector decides to start ignoring the 3I then 
what can be done? The SAR may not have been a bad solution, and it may
have been only when the rats started getting naughty that both a reason
and a justification for a decade long campaign of suppression appeared;
the rest of the 3I almost certainly paid increased taxes to fund the SRW).

  Where I start wondering about "arms control" is when it becomes obvious
that any starship, and virtually any ship, period, is a strategic "weapon
of mass destruction" in Traveller. As recently pointed out it only requires
so many G-turns for the shattering of small planetoids to become practical,
and without an explicit L-Hyd usage for a reaction drive any Far Trader can
deliver dozens of one ton nickel-iron slugs to the local pre-Stellar gov't
of choice.

  Hmm, 200 such slugs, a full thrust course from Jupiter to Terra, deploy
and Jump at the erstwhile turn-over point, and what happens to Mr. Gates? :>

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 21:15:10 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

> From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
> 
> << If you are looking for a race to abscribe wierd behavior to,
>  pick the Aslan. >>
> 
> True, but the K'Kree and the Hivers are even wierder...

Not really, K'Kree have human analogs & so do the Hivers...

K'Kree are militant vegitariens<sp>...

The Hivers could be cult leaders...  *weg*

But, the Aslan have no real human analog...

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 01:42:36 -0500
From: rodmanb@mindspring.com (Rod Botkins)
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)

>Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:52:25 -0800 (PST)
>From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)
>snip<
>(sigh) That's good and bad.  I don't know what the answer is.  I guess
>that makes me part of the problem.  I know what I don't want but don't
>have a clue how to get what I do want!  What I want is Classic
>Traveller, improved and updated.  I want smaller books that lie flat
>when open.  I want a CD with all the forms and charts and generation
>spread sheets for NPCs and vehicles and ships and worlds.  I want the
>basic stuff to be in a box.  I want to be able to run my own milieu or
>a published one at whim.  I want more than one company to publish
>supplements.  I want to be able to use my CT/MT supplements and
>adventures.  I want on-line support and an official newsletter.  I
>want an official ball cap.  I want more than I'll ever get, and
>certainly much more than I can afford.  Junkies are a pain in the
>neck, aren't they?

I second *and* third this motion.  Actually, I could live without the CD.
IMHO, you shouldn't need anything more than the rules, six-sided dice, a
legal pad and imagination to play an RPG.  Of course, sourcebooks and
spreadsheets do make things nice - especially if you're a gearhead or just
an addict for details.  Moreover, I'd be slap happy if Miller just
republished all the CT stuff as is.

- -Rod


____________________________________________________
"I promise I shall never give up,
and that I'll die yelling and laughing.
And that until then I'll rush around this world
I insist is holy and pull at everyone's lapel
and make them confess to me and to all."
- --Kerouac

Rod Botkins
rodmanb@mindspring.com
____________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 22:45:24 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Starship Crew Questions

Rob Prior wrote:

> Aeron suggested including more detailed crew descriptions (with actual
> skills listed). Is there a general consensus that this would be useful?

Hell yes, I've been doing this for years.

> Would this be a reasonable thing to switch on/off under user control?

Yes.

> If people want it, can someone give me algorithms for determining
> positions/skills required/recommended for bridge crews?

Post them here please.

> How much cargo before a Cargo Master is recommended?

My rule of thumb is 10000 tons ( Stere not Dtons )

> Would there be more
> than one cargo master for really big ships? (Eg. a 100000 dTon freighter.)

Yes, IMHO 1 per 10000.

> Would carriers have a flight control officer on the bridge?

Naw in the Tac Center.

> Other
> positions?

  Evyn...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 03:13:21 EST
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stealth as a Tool

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net>

>>Stealth is
>>a tool for making maneuvers, not for the actual destruction...
>
>
>The ninja clans of the Iga Province might disagree, thought they WERE of the
>belief that a successful mission was one where you left no trace of your
>ever having been there.
>
>But because the Iga-mono were not as well armored and well-equipped as the
>Samurai, stealth was their means of survival and of evening the odds.  They
>didn't wear black for nothing.
>
>- --Clif

 Certainly, but I was refering specifically to the Samurai and their lords,
not the entire culture of Shogunate Japan.
 If by carefully chosen statements, messages and
actions, none of which were individually dishonorable to use, you could goad
an enemy into a mistake in court or on the field of battle that would bring
about his death, suicide, or loss of honor or station, then you won.

 My line above about stealth applies much more clearly to the Aslan,
actually...

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 03:19:10 EST
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Kafer in Traveller?  Mooo.

clif asks:

>By the way, is 2300 AD supposed to be a limited portion of Traveller
>history?  If so, does Traveller history officially mention and explain what
>happened to the Kafer?

 Nope. Two different timelines. 2300AD is a timeline descendant of
Twilight:2000, while the history of Terra in the Third Imperium is very
different...

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:54:44 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Stratfor Global Intelligence report for 1999

From: Steven Hudson 
> >> *  Russia and China will be moving into a closer, primarily anti-
> >> American alliance in 1999.
> 
>   This kind of exemplifies the value of this summary, IMHO...
> 
>   BTW, if the 2300 list is up you could liven things up by lobbing
> it over there :)

Where's the 2300 list?

I forwarded this 'cos it was interesting, rather than because it was right.
 I've read the fine print - there's some pretty loopy stuff in there.  They
seem strangely bothered by France.  Apparently they're a little too
independent of US foreign policy.

Actually, there has been a certain amount of schmoozing going on between
Russia and China of late.  I think it's because they're both losers and
weren't invited to the party.  Anti-American here more or less means not
supporting bombing Iraq or Serbia, and not doing what the IMF says.

Remember, these guys are probably ex-CIA.  They might be prone to see
threats where other people wouldn't.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:18:51 -0000
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

Seth wrote:
> When I get a job, I'll lobby my principal to start a gaming club.
> At least I won't have to worry about parents screaming about demon
> worship like they did with D+D...


Really?  Do you think that the parents who do that are capable of
seeing any difference between D+D  and  other  RPGs?  I  remember
when I was in high school in Canada my principle gave in and  put
a blanket ban on  _all_  RPGs  on  school  property  (even  after
class) and closed the official school  gaming  club.  Rule  books
(etc) were subject to instant confiscation.

(I also remember all us 'rebellious' gamer-types  abandoning  our
homework in favour of memorising every RPG table ... in D+D,  CT,
etc ... so we could continue without needing rule books  present.
Ah, those  were  the  days  ...  gamers  with  a  real  sense  of
commitment!)

Parents who scream about demon  worship  in  D+D  do  so  out  of
ignorance.  So be prepared for  that  ignorance  to  extend  into
game system 'differentiation' (or lack of it).



Regards PLST

"There are no stupid questions, only stupid people"
- - Mr Garrison, South Park

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:03:51 -0000
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller World Building-Biomes

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> If you've got the references handy, it'd be nice to have a list
> of known biomes (with a rough description of the limiting conditions
> for them). Then the rest of us can try to come up with possibilities
> for the less terrestrial planets/environments.


I'm coming to this thread a little late but according to  my  WWF
atlas ... biomes, realms and regions are as follows:

    "Biomes are ecological regions, defined in terms of their
    plant and animal life, and usually  identified  with  the
    prevailing vegetation types.  UNESCO  has  designated  14
    major  biomes,  distributed  across  eight   zoographical
    realms: the Nearctic, the  Neotropical,  the  Palearctic,
    the Afrotropical, the Indomalayan,  the  Australian,  the
    Oceanian and the Antarctic."



    Major Biomes:

    - Tundra communities and barren arctic deserts

    - Temperate needleleaf forests or woodlands

    - Temperate broadleaf forests or woodlands and  sub-polar
      deciduous thickets

    - Temperate grasslands

    - Cold winter (continental) deserts and semi-deserts

    - Evergreen Sclerophyllous forests, scrub or woodlands

    - Tropical grasslands and savanna

    - Warm deserts and semi-deserts

    - Tropical dry or deciduous  forests  (including  monsoon
      forests) or woodlands

    - Sub-tropical and temperate rainforests or woodlands

    - Tropical humid forests

    - Mixed  mountain  and  highland  systems  with   complex
      zonation

    - Mixed island systems

    - River and lake systems



    Climatic Regions:

    - Polar (ice cap and tundra)

    - Cooler humid (subarctic and continental)

    - Warmer humid (Marine west coast, humid sub-tropical and
      Mediterranean)

    - Dry (steppe and desert)

    - Tropical humid (savanna and rain forest)



Regards PLST

"There are no stupid questions, only stupid people"
- - Mr Garrison, South Park

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 07:43:45 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: DGP World Builders Handbook

OK, I've finally been able to get postal rates, so here goes.

I will be making _legal_ copies of DGP's World Builders Handbook.
According to the agreement I made with Joe Fugate, I can make copies of
out-of-print DGP products _at cost_ for fellow Traveller fans. (I asked
for, and received, this permission while running the MegaTraveller
Referees' Exchange. Joe was a nice chap.)

My cost for photocopying and packaging  is $5.50. Postal rates are $2.00
(Canada), $4.05 (US), $8.50 (overseas air), or $4.30 (overseas surface). 

I'd rather not post my address on the TML. If you are interested, send me
an email with your name and postal address (and surface/air preference is
overseas) and I'll send you an email with my address. (Do this even if
you've already sent me an inquiry - I've just dumped 300+ messages into a
temporary folder, and may have accidentally mixed up a few.)

I'll start making copies on Monday, so if you want one let me know by
then. I'll put it in the post as soon as I get your cheque.

I can cash cheques drawn on Canadian or American banks, or International
Money Orders.  I can't offer any premium for American dollars (service
charges eat up the exchange rate on amount this small), but they are just
as easy to cash as Canadian, so go with whatever is more convenient for
you.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 08:09:53 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Weapons and Such 

AveNelso@aol.com writes:
>Otherwise it seems to be strictly local matter, with one big exception. 
>In at
>least one version of the game (I think it was either MT Imperial
>Encyclopaedia
>or a T4 book)  it says that NOBLES, including their entourages/bodyguards
>have
>a right to bear arms. 

Yup, but I've always taken that to mean blade weapons and sidearms, not
things like assault rifles.

And if a noble uses (or loses) the weapon, they may be subject to Imperial
justice, or to some local laws.

- ----------

"Yes, Sir John, I understand that you have the right to carry that sidearm
as a vassal of His Majesty. That sidearm isn't the issue. However, you
have 'lost' ten sidearms this year, one of which was used to commit a
murder last week. The Tweezlethorp Court sentenced you to the uranium
mines for arms smuggling. Seems the chap who bought that last sidearm paid
you to lose it... 

"No, Sir John, this is a purely local matter. Extrality doesn't apply...

"Yes, Sir John, only 2% of the convicts live to complete their sentences...

"No, Sir John, I haven't given up. I'm pursuing other avenues."

<later>

"It's a simple extraction mission, captain. Payment will be held in escrow
by Hortalez et Cie, and released on delivery of my client. Combat damage?
I'm certain he'll be thankful just to be alive and free. Are you
interested?"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 08:16:26 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Education (was: Traveller's Last Chance?)

AveNelso@aol.com writes:
>	I'm a high school teacher, and these posts have really got me thinking
>about
>trying to start a Science Fiction Club at school, and sneaking in a little
>Traveller.

I don't run a formal club*. 

I've been tinkering with a new 101 book: 101 Lessons. While the BITS
marketing department doesn't feel there's enough market to make this a
viable product, I think we could probably manage a PDF file on the BITS
website. Besides, the marketing department's better half is a teacher :-)

Anyone interested in working together to create some science fiction
resources, tips, etc for teachers?


*This is because, if I _do_ run a formal club for a couple of years, I
could be _required_ to do so forever. With the present government
situation here, I'm being very careful to leave myself manuevering room. 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 08:34:25 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Traveller World Building-Biomes

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>And as I noted: "Deep Ocean Vent" :-)
>
>If dealing with *sufficiently* alien life forms, it may be possible to
>add a few biomes or to shift the temp/precip ranges some. 

Over the holidays I read somewhere ("New Scientist" I think, but am not
certain) than deep-rock bacteria may well have more biomass than any other
lifeform. 

We definately need to include alien biomes, especially for other
biochemistries. 

Also, many Earth biomes were very different before grass. We should
include these for planets where plants never incorporated silica needles
into themselves - that mutation radically changed Earth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 08:40:10 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re(2): DGP World Builders Handbook

There are some changes. Societal generation was expanded a bit, and Heavy
Core added as a planetary type, but that is it.  Whether you want to get a
copy is up to your sense of completeness, I guess.

Robert Prior
67 Greenbelt Crescent
Richmond Hill, Ontario
L4C 5S1
Canada

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 09:02:56 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Maps?

Adahma wrote:

> Is there such a thing floating around in any available form, a map, possibly
> wall size, of the "known" Traveller universe?
>
> Thanks,
> Adahma

Hmm.

There are some blank maps for Traveller in various formats at
http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/Travmaps/

But you're tempting me to do a known universe one.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:03:06 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Book Recommendation: Red Mars

Just finished Red Mars by Kim Stanley Robinson and was very impressed.

Lots of bits of science about terraforming, planetary (non terrestrial)
weather, a few good tools and inventions (the engineer robot building
factory).

This was just the sideline, it was the story and characterizations which
made the 500+ pages eminently enjoyable.  Travelleresqe in that everything
is pretty hard science (as far as this accountant can tell).

One interesting factoid I'd never thought about;  A 500 kph wind on a
planet with an atmosphere 1/10th the density of Earth's would only have as
much "push" as a 50 kph wind at Earth's atmospheric pressure for most
purposes.

By the way, anyone know the difference between "sublimation" and "evaporation"?

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 08:08:33 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: On Calendars

Jeff wrote in digest v1998#1340:
>>>>
001-0001 is the date of the founding of the Third Imperium by Cleon Zhunastu.
>>>>
*knock, knock, knock*  "Hello, sir.  My name is Officer Fred, and my partner here is Officer Kugiili.  We are from the Office of Calendar Compliance.  <shows holographic Imperial ID>  We would like to talk to you about your article.  You know, it was a pretty good piece of work but it had this problem that I didn't want to let slip past while we had a chance to correct it pre-publication."  <cutting off sputtering protest about supposed freedom of the press in the 3I>  "Oh, you didn't know that all information of this nature goes through our office before being OK'd for publication?  Please remember that this is the Third Imperium, and not the Ancient West.  Anyway, down to the reason for our visit.  We thought you might need to be reminded that Cleon I decreed the founding of the Third Imperium to be the zeroth year of the Imperium, and a holiday year.  Well, we won't hold you any longer.  Just remember that we will be checking your future articles VERY carefully in the futur!
e.  Who loves ya baby?"  <taking wrapper off sucker and popping it in his mouth, then rubbing his bald head as they turn and walk away>
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:07:49 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: IW Alien Races...

Here's an interesting set of questions:

What races were involved in the early Interstellar Wars, besides 
Terrans and Vilani?

I assume the Vegans were involved, because of the Vegan worlds only a 
subsector away from the action.

What other races might have been onboard Vilani or Terran vessels 
during this time period?

What races might be encountered as members of a vessel's crew?

What races might be used in a military fashion against the enemy?

What races were on the side of the Terrans?

What races were on the side of the Vilani?

What races were caught in the crossfire?

What of the Bwaps?  The Tahavi?

By canon, we know that the Aslan didn't have jump drive capacity at 
this time, and the Vargr were waaayyyyy on the other side of the Ziru 
Sirka, hitting the Vilani on their coreward side.

I don't recall  reading of any Hiver, K'kree, or Droyne involvement
in the IWs, or with the Ziru Sirka for that matter. 

It sounds kinda boring if it's just the Humans beating each other up, 
with the Vegans officially on the Vilani side.

Thank you all for your time.  I look forward to hearing from you.  :)

And now, back to your regularly scheduled Traveller thread....

In Service,
Jason
============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer I
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1374
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, January 7 1999     Volume 1998 : Number 1375



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Thermal/IR
Sublimation vs Evaporation
GT Meson Screens
Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Pluto's Secret and Mars (Rim War)
Re: On Calendars
Re: FF&S2 ISBN
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Book Recommendation: Red Mars
Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)
FASA Sold
Re: style
Re: Online RPG Sources
jumpspace recursion
Re: FASA Sold
Re: jumpspace recursion 
Re: jumpspace recursion 
Re: style
Re: jumpspace recursion
re: Man-Kzin war
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: Stratfor Global Intelligence report for 1999
Tour a Real Fusion Reactor
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: Surveillance
Re: Surveillance

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 07:30:32 -0800 (PST)
From: John Meyers <johncmeyers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Thermal/IR

Here is an Army site that includes some basic info on existing
systems. No tutorial on terms or usage though.

http://www.monmouth.army.mil/peoiew/pmnvrsta1/systems.htm


John Meyers





_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:35:14 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Sublimation vs Evaporation

Pete,

Evaporation is the transition of state of matter from a liquid phase 
to a gaseous phase.  A good example would be the evaporation of water 
spilled on the concrete sidewalk on a warm, summer's day.

Sublimation is the transition of state of matter from a solid phase 
directly to a gaseous phase (skipping the usual liquid phase 
in-between.)  Rare under normal (Terran) conditions (room temp, 1 
atm), but a good example of an exception is dry ice, which goes from 
a solid state directly to a gaseous state at room temp.

Don't want to bore you with the specific details.  Hope this helps.

In Service,
Jason
============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer I
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:41:28 -0500 (EST)
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: GT Meson Screens

<GEARHEAD ALERT, then again aren't my posts always about that? :-) >

Greetings fellow technophiles.

I was wondering last night about the Meson Screens in G:T.  I was
wondering if there were TL-11 or TL-13 versions.  So I went to my drawing
board and tried to reverse engineer the things.  Using Vehicles as a guide
I found out that the meson screen seems to be a new species of  animal in
and of themselves.

Using 20,800,000 DR/sf as a guide these numbers seem to be the best match
for a "basic" 1DR/sf unit:

TL-12 Meson Screen   0.004lbs   0.1cr    0.001kw

At first I thought it was the TL-12 Force Screen with DR x10, until I
noticed that the price is justabit different.

Results of using these numbers:

20.8MegaDR = 8320lbs (4.16t)  2.08Mcr   208,000kw
As no volume is listed, I am assuming the thing may be mounted in a pop
turret, therefore
V=wt/20 or 416cf

Power requirement:  20,800kw of TL-12 fusion slice  4160lbs(2.08t)  41.6cf
104,000cr

Total unit: 457.6cf(1 space)   6.24t   2.184Mcr

Now I am not too clear on the rules for pop turrets  but I am assuming
that they're going to add some more mass, volume, and cost to the thing,
hopefully within 42.4cf.  But from what I can see this is pretty close to
the things in the GT book.  Has anyone else played with these things?  How
close am I?  Is it good enough for Imperial governmnet work? :-)

Some  more questions.  How small can a Meson Screen be?  The GT rules
would seem to indicate that even a fighter could have one.  At 1 space a
10ton fighter could resist 10400DR vs. Mesons (yikes!)

Also, there are no rules for creating the Black/White globes, yet.  I am
wondereing if we should just use the Force Screen tables at face value.
The descriptions in Vehicles seem to fit with how the traveller versions
work anyway.

So suggestions, comments, criticisms from my fellow gearheads?  

\\  // Commander X
 \\//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
T E K  Military & Civilan Starship Contractor
 //\\  High Energy Weapons Research
//  \\ http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:02:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)

- ---Rod Botkins <rodmanb@mindspring.com> wrote:
> [snipfest]
> 
Moreover, I'd be slap happy if Miller just
> republished all the CT stuff as is.
> 

Woo hoo!  I think you need to swing by the CT Resurgence eGroup and
fire up the non-conversant folks over there. 
http://www.egroups.com/list/classic-traveller 




==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
IMTU 0601 tc++ tm !tn t4 ?tg ge- 3i pi ta+ he+ 
http://come.to/traveller

Visit the "Subsidized Merchant" - http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:14:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

- ---"Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
[snip Seth's comments]
> Really?  Do you think that the parents who do that are capable of
> seeing any difference between D+D  and  other  RPGs?  I  remember
> when I was in high school in Canada my principle gave in and  put
> a blanket ban on  _all_  RPGs  on  school  property  (even  after
> class) and closed the official school  gaming  club.  Rule  books
> (etc) were subject to instant confiscation.
[snip fanatical rambling]
> Parents who scream about demon  worship  in  D+D  do  so  out  of
> ignorance.  So be prepared for  that  ignorance  to  extend  into
> game system 'differentiation' (or lack of it).
> 

But, remember, one new component has been added to the mix today: we
are the parents!  Seriously, many of us who have been gaming Traveller
since the CT days are now the parents of middle schoolers, myself
included.  If my sixth-grader said she wanted to join a gaming club
I'd be all for it, obviously.  She is already a sci-fi fan (I wonder
how that happened?) so, after explaining the good and bad, right and
wrong of gaming based on our family code of morality, I'd encourage
her.  IMO, the ignorance should be diminishing.  But what do I know!


 
==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
IMTU 0601 tc++ tm !tn t4 ?tg ge- 3i pi ta+ he+ 
http://come.to/traveller

Visit the "Subsidized Merchant" - http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:17:52 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Pluto's Secret and Mars (Rim War)

>>> The binding energy of Phobos is about 1.6e16 joules (this is from memory -
>>> I think gravitational binding energy goes as (m^2/r) and Earth's is about
>>> 2x10^32 joules.)
>
>>Ack!  That's equivalent to a disabled Kinunir (~16000 metric tons) moving at
>>only 32 km/s (under 2 G-turns)!  Are those numbers right?
>
>I could be wrong - as I said, it's from memory - but Phobos/Deimos are
>pretty small. In fact, they're probably held together as much by mechanical
>forces/rigidity as gravity, which implies that one might need several times
>more energy to disrupt them; still, overall they're pretty small and wimpy.

The other possibility is that Phobos was hit with a smaller explosive
device that *slowed it down* enough to cause it to fall from orbit.

Orbital mechanists may correct me, but wouldn't it be possible to explode a
somewhat smaller warhead on the (correct) surface of Phobos and reduce the
orbital velocity below that threshhold which allows it to freefall while
"missing" the planet?

Of course, I may be whistling in the dark if the amount of energy required
(in one explosion) is as much as (or exceeds) that which would blow the
thing apart.

I seem to recall that the amount of energy to blow the moon out of its
orbit (ala Space 1999) was more than the moon could endure without blowing
apart.  Of course, then there's the amount required to propel it at speeds
large enough to travel to other planets...

This has great Traveller applications; Instead of a near-C rock from the
outer system or Oort cloud, just detonate a nuke on the surface of that
small moon to bring it down.  I'm sure that enough study and computer
calculations would be able to put it right on top of the deep meson site
(then again you probably need not get that close).

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:12:58 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: On Calendars

Joseph Kimball said:

>e.  Who loves ya baby?"  <taking wrapper off sucker and popping it in his
mouth, then rubbing his bald head as they turn and walk away>
>- Joseph


Oh, c'mon, that's not the way that the Velvet Whip, er... Kojak would end a
conversation! It would be something like...

"Let's wax our skies and get out of here" <taking wrapper off sucker and
popping it in his mouth. They turn and walk away>

:^)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 10:08:07 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: FF&S2 ISBN

>>>>
>Can someone tell me the ISBN of FF&S v2?

ISBN  1-57828-422-8   
IG-1720
>>>>
Thanks!
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:09:52 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

In a message dated 1/6/99 7:12:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
redroach@sprynet.com writes:

<< I do teach middle school (7th grade) and I would advise most of you not to
 quit your day jobs. >>

what subject(s)?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 12:11:33 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Book Recommendation: Red Mars

"Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> wrote:
> By the way, anyone know the difference between "sublimation" and "evaporation"?

Sublimination is going directly from a solid to a gas while evaporation
is going fom a liquid to a gas. CO2 sublimates - as fas as I know, CO2
never liquifies at standard pressure - it's either a gas or a solid.
- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:16:19 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)

In a message dated 1/6/99 7:19:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:

<< And stopping a hungry polar bear requires something more than your
 typical "hunting rifle"! >>

My friend (who lived in AK) said that everybody thought that the best anti-
bear gun was a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with slugs. The slug will break the
bear's shoulder, and cripple it everytime...

Ob Trav: carry a LAG? :-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:20:03 -0800 (PST)
From: John Meyers <johncmeyers@yahoo.com>
Subject: FASA Sold

Microsoft has bought FASA and its parent company. See:
   http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,30635,00.html
and
   http://www.cdmag.com/Home/

Does this have any impact on OOP FASA stuff, esp. the Traveller CD
project? Bryan?

John Meyers

(Wow more posts in a couple of days than the last couple of years!)
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:57:06 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: style

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:

>  Hmm, I was too busy playing Titan to get a look at the copy of Elric! at
>the table, but the Traveller Book appears to have about 15-20% of the space
>devoted to artwork and diagrams of various sorts. Let's assume that B&W vs.
>colour makes no real difference in function (and as for covers, G:T says a
>lot about how the people at SJG assessed the marketing trade-offs), and the
>question really comes down to how _much_ art, as upgrading to current styles
>and standards in B&W art would seem to be a given.

Fair point - the reason I mentioned it is that it has good b&W art.

>  So, is 20% too much or too little, and where should the line be drawn?

Hmm. Not sure - I'd have to go through the books and get an idea. However,
I would argue that the MT layout and material was amongst the best in any
RPG. Clear and professional. I wouldn't want to see more.

I'd love to see something like Jesse's Grendel's Daughter Free Trader Pic
used for T5's cover.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 14:41:59 +0100
From: Volker Greimann <greimann@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Online RPG Sources

At 17:15 06.01.99 -0600, you wrote:
>On 01/07/99 at 12:05 PM,  "Anson Betts" <AFBetts@salcom.co.nz> said:
>
>>>Has anyone had luck with any online RPG stores?  My local shop isn't too
>>>quick on getting things to me in a timely fashion, and the next closest is
>>over
>>>1/2 hour drive (through the Wisconsin winters ...).
>
>>>Thanks in advance
>>>-- James Pearson
>
>
>>I've had good experiences with
>>Titan Games
>>www.titan-games.com
Only problem i have with them is that on usenet auctions Quincy Koziol
always drives up the prices. Very often i have experienced Titan-games
buying the stuff i wanted or at least driving up the prices for me. :-(
Volker
- ---
Volker A. Greimann, greimann@geocities.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 10:43:00 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: jumpspace recursion

Here's food for thought:

Let's say ship A is being carried in ship B. Ship B jumps into hyperspace.
Sometime during the week, ship A executes a jump.

What happens?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 12:51:20 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: FASA Sold

At 09:20 AM 1/7/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Microsoft has bought FASA and its parent company. See:
>   http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,30635,00.html
>and
>   http://www.cdmag.com/Home/


If I read the article correctly, only FASA Interactivewas sold.  They are
the folks that do the CD-ROM games, not the print games.

Kurt

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 12:54:12 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion 

> Here's food for thought:
> 
> Let's say ship A is being carried in ship B. Ship B jumps into hyperspace.
> Sometime during the week, ship A executes a jump.
> 
> What happens?

It's been tried.  Ship B disappears, never to be seen again.

Same thing happens if you launch something like a fighter while in Jump space, 
IIRC.  Either way, it's a good way to discover the truth behind 
reincarnation...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 12:55:08 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion 

> Here's food for thought:
> 
> Let's say ship A is being carried in ship B. Ship B jumps into hyperspace.
> Sometime during the week, ship A executes a jump.
> 
> What happens?

Er, my mistake.  Ship *A* disappears.  Ship B comes out where it was supposed 
to.

Gotta get my eyes checked...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:01:49 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: style

>I'd love to see something like Jesse's Grendel's Daughter Free Trader Pic
>used for T5's cover.
>
>Dom
>


Quick, someone hand me a beer!  I think my head is swelling with all the
great comments I've gotten on my Traveller pics.  Oh shit, it's only 10am
here in California......It's gotta' be 5PM somewhere in the world, where's
the bar?

Thanks Dom!  I have plans to pitch Marc on useing stuff, but I've got to get
the G:T stuff done first.  Once that's done and nothing else is in the pipe,
I'll start work on my masterpiece to knock his socks off and into LEO :)

Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:02:43 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

From previous threads, I'd say "KA-BOOM"??
Jesse D.


- -----Original Message-----
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, January 07, 1999 9:38 AM
Subject: jumpspace recursion


>Here's food for thought:
>
>Let's say ship A is being carried in ship B. Ship B jumps into hyperspace.
>Sometime during the week, ship A executes a jump.
>
>What happens?
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:20:21 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Man-Kzin war

>The lesson that the Kzin eventually learned was 1) humans gave up war
>because they were SO good at it and 2) the humans were fighting a war
>for survival (total war against kzin) where as the Kzin were just out
>to conquer us for slaves.

(c) Kzinti must be really, really, really stupid. The Kzin had reactionless
gravity drives capable of hundred-G accelerations, while the humans had
only fusion rockets - and contrary to Niven, a fusion rocket makes a terrible
space combat weapon, especially against anyone who has ten times your
acceleration. The Kzinti could have used kinetic-energy weapons
to sterilize Earth any time they wanted...fortunately, as you said, the
Kzin wanted slaves, not a wasteland.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:23:53 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

>> Here's food for thought:
>>
>> Let's say ship A is being carried in ship B. Ship B jumps into hyperspace.
>> Sometime during the week, ship A executes a jump.
>>
>> What happens?
>
>Er, my mistake.  Ship *A* disappears.  Ship B comes out where it was supposed
>to.
>

I would suggest that this is a IYTU decision.  There is no "Canon" to back
up directly any statement/assumption.

Of course, there is the fact that someone (Naval Research?) must have
thought of doing this and tried it, but since there is no mention of the
results you can probably infer that they failed.

In my own TU, in the above example, both ships A and B would never be heard
from again.  No wreckage, no signal, just never emerge from Jumpspace.

This allows me to come up with what happened when I get around to it, and
denies the least number of possibilities.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 10:34:04 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Stratfor Global Intelligence report for 1999

>From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
>Subject: Re: Stratfor Global Intelligence report for 1999
...
>Actually, there has been a certain amount of schmoozing going on between
>Russia and China of late.  I think it's because they're both losers and
>weren't invited to the party.  Anti-American here more or less means not
>supporting bombing Iraq or Serbia, and not doing what the IMF says.

  I just get worried by stuff that looks roughly as useful as an embassy
advisory (Spain good, backwoods of anywhere with an on-going insurgency
Bad - what a surprise!). I really hope that they went into detail as to
the fact that "Anti-American alliance" here really means that they're 
both bitching through diplomatic channels about the US, but they'd both 
much rather see the other lose relative power first.

  To a certain extent it may simply be that there's brownie points to be
gained here at Anglo-American expense, and both of them expect to be net
importers of petroleum products before too long, last I'd heard. There's
also the fact that pandering to the Arab/Islamic (plus Iran, of course)
audience may increase their influence in the former SSR's of central Asia.

  But allies? About as likely as the K'kree and Aslan getting together :)

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:33:35 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Tour a Real Fusion Reactor

>On January 20th at noon there will be a tour, open to the public, of MIT's
>Alcator C-Mod, a tokamak fusion experiment.

By the by, if you can't get to Cambridge, there are some good pictures of
the Tokamak at http://www.psfc.mit.edu  (follow the "Alcator Project"
links) As well as some other interesting experiments (like the levitated
dipole experiment [LDX] - possible precursor to antigravity [*way*
precursor] - follow the "Physics Research" links for LDX).

Pete again.

Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 13:39:48 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

"Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:

> > Here's food for thought:
> >
> > Let's say ship A is being carried in ship B. Ship B jumps into hyperspace.
> > Sometime during the week, ship A executes a jump.
> >
> > What happens?
>
> Er, my mistake.  Ship *A* disappears.

I would think that A's attempt to enter Jump would fail without disastrous side
effects.
Its already in jump space.  So you couldn't even charge the lanthanum grid.
A would just sit there like a lump.  I don't see why the jump drive of A would
work at all.
Am I missing something?


> Ship B comes out where it was supposed to.

I agree with that.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 17:43:26 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Surveillance

Bruce wrote:

>There are many atmospheric windows in the IR, and in many of them the
>end-to-end absorbtion is less than 50% - much less than 50% for dry
>sites. (I usually worry about this in the "looking up" direction, of
>course, but it works both ways.)
>
>IR missiles tended to be short ranged more because of primitive detectors
>(mechanically-scanned single-element detectors) than anything fundamental.

Even the most modern air-air missiles follow this sequence - the IRIS-T;
AIM-9X and ASRAAM are all short range, IR homing missiles (with far from
primitive seekers - ASRAAM can be told to choose what part of the target
it hits); while AMRAAM, the improved AMRAAM and Meteor are all active
radar medium range missiles.

>A $60,000 commercial IR camera (about the size of a bulky camcorder) can
>see commercial jet aircraft at 20 - 40 miles with no special image processing
>or optimization (I've done the test myself.) 

Sure, you can see an aircraft-sized target. Now look at the example in
question - resolving human sized targets; engine blocks on vehicles; and
even a cigarette from space? Even assuming a low-earth orbit satellite
(bringing with it narrow field of view and short view times for any
particular target), you are looking at 100 miles up.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 17:59:21 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Surveillance

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>> But in the movie the resolution WAS good enough that you could watch one of
>> the SAS slit the throat of a man.
>>
>> Also, you COULD HAVE seen one of them get amorous with a woman, which was my
>> claim.
>
>Read the book(s). In "Patriot Games" Clancy makes a point that the
>satellite images could *not* resolve things like faces. 

In the book, the imagery was not real time, and was from a
photoreconaissance satellite. In the film, the imagery was realtime and
from a thermal imagery satellite.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1375
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, January 7 1999     Volume 1998 : Number 1376



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Stratfor Global Intelligence report for 1999
re: jumpspace recursion
Looking for Galactic Sectors
Re: FASA Sold
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: jumpspace recursion
re: Man-Kzin war
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
OK, so I really am a Traveller guy
Re: Thermal Imaging and IR
Re: GT Meson Screens
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: StarCruiser
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re:  Remodelling MT Vehicle Armour
Re: GT Meson Screens
Re: GT tech levels 
Re: GT Meson Screens
Re: StarCruiser
Re: Looking for Galactic Sectors
Re: Looking for Galactic Sectors 
Re: GT tech levels 
Re: Looking for Galactic Sectors
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: jumpspace recursion

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:04:30 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Stratfor Global Intelligence report for 1999

Alan Bradley wrote:

>> >> *  Russia and China will be moving into a closer, primarily anti-
>> >> American alliance in 1999.

Good. Work was looking a little on the quite side. This should enliven
matters.

>>   This kind of exemplifies the value of this summary, IMHO...
>> 
>>   BTW, if the 2300 list is up you could liven things up by lobbing
>> it over there :)

>Remember, these guys are probably ex-CIA.  They might be prone to see
>threats where other people wouldn't.

Indeed, liable to see threats were they don't actually exist.

ObTraveller: Are the Imperial intelligence organisations similar to the
US model - i.e. multiple agencies, each with it's own agenda and varying
amount of paranoia,

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:54:46 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: jumpspace recursion

Erwin Fritz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Here's food for thought:

Let's say ship A is being carried in ship B. Ship B jumps into hyperspace.
Sometime during the week, ship A executes a jump.

What happens?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
IIRC, ship A is never seen again.

Further, if ship A has two seperate jump drives installed, performs a
jump, and sometime during the week fires up the second jump drive,
it is also never seen again.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 10:57:20 PST
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com>
Subject: Looking for Galactic Sectors

Does anyone know if there are Galactic Sectors for Daibei, Aldeberan and 
NewWorld?  If so, I'd like to get them.

Thanks

Jim Clem, B.S.E.
REALITY.SYS Corrupted:  Re-Boot Universe?  (Y/N/Q)
In God we trust, everyone else SQUAWK MODE IV!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tigger of Borg:  ASSIMILATING!!!  Thats what Tiggers do Best!


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 14:01:18 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: FASA Sold

John Meyers <johncmeyers@yahoo.com> writes:
>Does this have any impact on OOP FASA stuff, esp. the Traveller CD
>project? Bryan?

No, because FASA sold their rights to Seeker a long time ago. (At least,
that's what Seeker told me.)

It may mean that Battletech becomes just a computer game. But then, as I
don't play Battletech that doesn't bother me.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:46:55 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

Bloo said:

>I would think that A's attempt to enter Jump would fail without disastrous
side
>effects.
>Its already in jump space.  So you couldn't even charge the lanthanum grid.
>A would just sit there like a lump.  I don't see why the jump drive of A
would
>work at all.
>Am I missing something?


Either you're missing something or I'm missing something. Why wouldn't you
be able to charge up a drive inside jumpspace?


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 14:03:27 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com> writes:
>Let's say ship A is being carried in ship B. Ship B jumps into hyperspace.
>Sometime during the week, ship A executes a jump.
>
>What happens?

No one knows. People have tried it, but no one has reported on the
results.   :-)

Seriously, there is no canon answer, so you get to decide on your own.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:57:58 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

>Here's food for thought:
>
>Let's say ship A is being carried in ship B. Ship B jumps into hyperspace.
>Sometime during the week, ship A executes a jump.
>
>What happens?


As far as I know, canon is silent on this, which is a good thing.

Personally, if my PCs found themselves in a situation like this I might use
it as a way to introduce time travel or travel to alternate dimensions. As
an example, PCs might find themselves in the Wilds in the New Era, or the
Regency, or maybe somewhere during the Terran/Ziru Sirka wars. On the other
hand, it might be interesting to transport the PCs to somewhere far, far
away in the galaxy. Possibly somewhere simply disorienting (deep in Hiver
territory), hostile (deep in K'Kree territory), enlightening (deep in
Zhodani territory), bizarre (one of the various "fringe" sectors from old
third party CT materials), or just completely new and unheard of...

Of course, if the PCs aren't involved, YMMV.

However, some excellent ideas from the list in the past may serve to spark
your imagination. Someone mentioned once that J-Space might be an Ancient
artifact. Of course, it can be an Artifact from precursors of the Ancients
(not canonical, but maybe some even older race "built" J-Space, kind of like
the interstellar "subway" in Contact).

Of course, it could just be a common or garden misjump.

BTW: Erwin Fritz, was it you who designed the Rorani and asked me to draw
it? I came across some sketches in my sketch book and I could finish them up
if you still need them.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:06:10 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Man-Kzin war

At 10:20 AM 1/7/99 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>The lesson that the Kzin eventually learned was 1) humans gave up war
>>because they were SO good at it and 2) the humans were fighting a war
>>for survival (total war against kzin) where as the Kzin were just out
>>to conquer us for slaves.
>
>(c) Kzinti must be really, really, really stupid. The Kzin had reactionless
>gravity drives capable of hundred-G accelerations, while the humans had
>only fusion rockets - and contrary to Niven, a fusion rocket makes a terrible
>space combat weapon, especially against anyone who has ten times your
>acceleration. The Kzinti could have used kinetic-energy weapons
>to sterilize Earth any time they wanted...fortunately, as you said, the
>Kzin wanted slaves, not a wasteland.
>

The Kzinti stole their technology.  They are not a race of thinkers or
inventers.  They are wariors and little more than that.  They can run the
machines they stole and duplicate them using these same machines but
deprived of the stolen tech. they are fur covered cave men.  The beings they
stole their tech. from stole it from an older race that was enslaved by
another low tech. race that were powerful telepaths and dominated them.
That race wiped out most life in the galaxy in a civil war 1 million + years
before mankind evolved.  The tech. controled by that telepathic race was so
great the some of that race survive in indistructable time bubbles.  They
are so feared by the few humans that know of their existance that any action
is justified in killing the few of that race that survived.  The Man-Kzin
books are very conspiracy theory heavy.  The secret masters are try to keep
the lid on entirely to many boiling pots.  It's a good series.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 11:14:46 PST
From: "Rumor Watch" <rumor_watch@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

Dave,
my ninth-grade teacher did it. I've spent a fortune on gaming ever 
since...
:)




>
><< 
> << I would suggest that we all go out and become middle school 
teachers, >>
>  >>
>	I'm a high school teacher, and these posts have really got me thinking 
about
>trying to start a Science Fiction Club at school, and sneaking in a 
little
>Traveller.
>		Dave Nelson
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 12:14:43 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: OK, so I really am a Traveller guy

When I passed the receptionist's desk today, there was a package on it with
blue symbol.  I looked a bit closer, and it definately looked like the
silhouette of a starship to me.  What amazed me a few moments later when I
thought about it, was that the silhouette I saw was of the Chrysanthemum class
destroyer escort (from CT Supp 9 Fighting Ships) rather than one of the Star
Trek Enterprises.  I mean I know I was reading several of the TML digests this
morning, but I do normally watch ST:TNG most nights.
Just so you know what the symbol looked like, it was an I and an O with a
double-headed arrow in between and overlapping the letters (the I has elongated
bars top and bottom, unlike the font I am using on my screen).
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 12:47:13 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Thermal Imaging and IR

Jesse LaBranche wrote:

> Well Matt... When playing Twilight 2000, I've come across (I believe) three,
> not two systems. We've got Starlite, Infrared, and Thermal imaging systems-
> Unless two of these are the same with differing names...
> 
> You've summed up Starlite (Light Intensification), and Thermal sites really
> well above... But, that still leaves Infrared rather open. I REALLY wish I
> could
> remember my source for this- because I'm in no way qualified to say this on
> my own accounts and experience (Except starlite)...
> 
> Anyway, I *think* the difference between IR and Thermal is that one picks up
> on Heat  while the other picks up on Radiation itself... Somehow, that doesn't
> make sense since "Heat" and "Thermal" are basically synonymous though.

Nope. IIRC, IR, in this context means a IR detector with a big IR
searchlight on it. It is an active sensor, relying on reflected
radiation, whereas Thermal Imaging is a passive sensor, relying on
emitted radiation. I've seen these, some of the old 'starlight' scopes
also had big IR lamps on them for operation in 'no-light' vs 'low-light'
situations. 

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:53:55 -0600 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: GT Meson Screens

>Also, there are no rules for creating the Black/White globes, yet.  I am
>wondereing if we should just use the Force Screen tables at face value.
>The descriptions in Vehicles seem to fit with how the traveller versions
>work anyway.
>
>So suggestions, comments, criticisms from my fellow gearheads?

There are a couple of articles on this in the GURPSNet archive. Go to:

http://www.io.com/GURPSnet/Archive/Vehicles/Construction/forcefields
http://www.io.com/GURPSnet/Archive/Vehicles/Construction/forcefields.2

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 12:53:53 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

David P. Summers wrote:
> 
> If you are looking for a race to abscribe wierd behavior to,
> pick the Aslan.  All the races are sentient and none are going
> to do something that doesn't get them rational goals, but at
> least the Aslan are more alien.  Canine pack dominance is
> actually very similar to primate.  The Vargr should be the
> most human of the alien races....

Yeah. though things are going to be weird at first, when Terrans
encounter Vargr.  They'll speak just enough of each other's body
language to _really_ mess things up. Remember, humans and canines ahve
lived together in packs for at least 40,000 years, long enough for
significant evolution to have occured on both sides. (perhaps it's
longer...just the other day I read that there is at least one genetic
divergence study that shows that domestic dogs and wolves seem to have
diverged over 100,000 years ago. If that's the case, we've been living
with them for a heck of a long time.)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:05:38 -0600 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: StarCruiser

>Star Cruiser is a more playable game, IMO. Pity the NAM was broken.
>
>Dom

What is "NAM" in Star Cruiser? Enlighten me.

And please, no jokes about "the 'Nam" ;-)

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 12:16:02 PST
From: "Rumor Watch" <rumor_watch@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

>
><< << Hmmm, sounds good to me. I wonder what the Vargr battlecry would 
be,
>some
>  sort of howl?
>   >>
> 
> How about 
> 
> "Kibbles and bits. Kibbles and bits. I gotta get me some kibbles and 
bits!"?
> 
> (an amusing American TV dog food commercial to those who are going 
"what?")
>>>
>

I prefer the "BACON!!!!!" commercial myself.
;)
Roger

______________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 14:42:39 -0800
From: Rob Dean <rsdean@erols.com>
Subject: Re:  Remodelling MT Vehicle Armour

David writes:

> From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
> I have designed vehicles using both _Striker_ (v1) and _Megatraveller_, and
> was always unhappy about the "all-round" armour used in MT. It works fine
> and is logical for space vessels, but not for planet-based combat vehicles.

Your methodology appears sound at first glance, but I'm not sure that I'd agree
with the premise.  We hashed this out once on the list back in 1991 or so, and
came to the conclusion that any vehicle intended to face a threat force with a
reasonable 9plug in your favorite estimate) grav vehicle contingent couldn't
really depend on having a preferred orientation to the threat -- with the possible
exception of the underside which you could always keep to the ground.  Therefore,
having armor the same thickness all around was not unreasonable, and I believe
I cited at the time something I'd read regarding the US M1 tank, which was facing
the 2-D version of that problem, since it was designed with heavy front armor, but
was now expected to face an all around threat in the current doctrinal environment,
thus showing that real military thinkers were working along the same line of logic
as the TML. (-:

Rob Dean
Former TML MT vehicle design guru
rsdean@erols.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:11:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GT Meson Screens

Joseph R. Dietrich writes:
 
> There are a couple of articles on this in the GURPSNet archive. Go to:
> 
> http://www.io.com/GURPSnet/Archive/Vehicles/Construction/forcefields
> http://www.io.com/GURPSnet/Archive/Vehicles/Construction/forcefields.2

Note that those rules are hardly official (nor are they specifically targeted
at Traveller, though there is enough information to create a sort of black
globe generator).  There are aspects to the canonical black globe which are
very hard to imitate in GURPS (actually, they don't make a whole lot of sense
in Traveller either), because GURPS capacitors can absorb huge amounts of power
and can get rid of it really fast.  A one displacement ton capacitor in GURPS
is about 25 tons weight and can absorb the energy from three shots from the
standard spinal meson gun, and you can radiate that energy back out again at an
incredible rate.

Note that FF&S seemed to cheat on the black globe issues by limiting the black
globe capacitors/HPGs to throughput equal to their capacitance per space combat
turn, which makes _no_ sense but does make overloading screens viable.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:19:30 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: GT tech levels 

On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Jesus wrote:

> 
> Traveller     GURPS
> Tech Level Tech Level
> 0                     1-3
> 1                     4
> 2                     5
> 3                     5
> 4                     5
> 5                     6
> 6                     6
> 7                     7
> 8                     8
> 9                     9
> 10                   9
> 11                   9
> 12                 10
> 13                 10
> 14                 11
> 15                 12
> 16                 13

  Has anybody else noticed something funny about these TL conversions? I
was under the impression, that (Traveller)TL-8 was supposed to be what we
have today. (GURPS)TL-8 is most certainly not this. GURPS High Tech ends
at GTL-7, and GURPS Ultra Tech begins at GTL-8.

  Another thing I'm not too sure about is (T)TL-16 = (G)TL-13. Looking at
older Traveller products the leap from TL-15 to 16 doesn't seem to be that
big, whereas in GURPS the difference between TL-12 and 13 is a huge one.
With portable antimatter weapons viable AM power and living metal (to
mention just a few) GTL-13 is getting dangerously close to sufficiently
advanced technology. I'd thing the very first stages of GTL-13 would
appear at Traveller TL-17. (FF&S1 puts the first antimatter power plants
at TL-17 IIRC.)

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:21:03 -0600 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: GT Meson Screens

>There are a couple of articles on this in the GURPSNet archive. Go to:
>
>http://www.io.com/GURPSnet/Archive/Vehicles/Construction/forcefields
>http://www.io.com/GURPSnet/Archive/Vehicles/Construction/forcefields.2


I forgot to mention:

For those of you just digging into GURPS Vehicles (for building GURPS
Traveller vehicles, of course!), there is a whole host of extensions by
Jonathan Lang and MA Lloyd on GURPSNet which add quite a bit to the book.
Go to:

http://www.io.com/GURPSnet/Archive/Vehicles/Construction/V2ad/

Simply perusing the archive at:

http://www.io.com/GURPSnet/Archive/Vehicles/Construction

Can also get you some signifcant ideas.

There are also many, many designs in the archive. Go to:

http://www.io.com/GURPSnet/Archive/Vehicles/

and select your flavor.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:24:23 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: StarCruiser

On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:

> What is "NAM" in Star Cruiser? Enlighten me.
> 
> And please, no jokes about "the 'Nam" ;-)

Naval Architects Manual, I would believe. A small booklet in the Star
Cruiser game box, which had a starship design sequence.

BTW I totally agree, that the said design sequence is seriously flawed.
I only ever designed a few small ships with it, and it was sheer hell all
the way.
 
- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:26:20 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for Galactic Sectors

> From: jim clem <travmind@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Looking for Galactic Sectors
> 
> Does anyone know if there are Galactic Sectors for Daibei, Aldeberan and 
> NewWorld?  If so, I'd like to get them.

Nope, but I am working on the Galactic work ups for Daibei & Alderan...  If
you want to send me any information you have on NewWorld, I can work on
that one as well...

Btw, if anyone wants a rough draft of the Reaver's Deep subsector, I am
willing to send it to you...

> Thanks

NP...

> Jim Clem, B.S.E.

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 15:49:23 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for Galactic Sectors 

> Btw, if anyone wants a rough draft of the Reaver's Deep subsector, I am
> willing to send it to you...

*chuckle*

Already got it for Trav Tools.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:01:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GT tech levels 

Eppu Tuominen writes:
> 
>   Has anybody else noticed something funny about these TL conversions? I
> was under the impression, that (Traveller)TL-8 was supposed to be what we
> have today. (GURPS)TL-8 is most certainly not this. GURPS High Tech ends
> at GTL-7, and GURPS Ultra Tech begins at GTL-8.

Shrug.  According to classic traveller I should be flying around in a grav raft
by now.  (Classic) traveller TL 8 is above current tech
> 
>   Another thing I'm not too sure about is (T)TL-16 = (G)TL-13. Looking at
> older Traveller products the leap from TL-15 to 16 doesn't seem to be that
> big, whereas in GURPS the difference between TL-12 and 13 is a huge one.
> With portable antimatter weapons viable AM power and living metal (to
> mention just a few) GTL-13 is getting dangerously close to sufficiently
> advanced technology. I'd thing the very first stages of GTL-13 would
> appear at Traveller TL-17. (FF&S1 puts the first antimatter power plants
> at TL-17 IIRC.)
Actually, the conversion should be that (GTL) 11 is traveller TL 14-16 or so --
GTL 11 includes early force fields and antimatter power plants, by TL 12 you
have personal deflector shields, vehicular antimatter power plants and
weaponry, and a few other technologies.

The technology conversion was the subject of significant complaints during the
original playtest, which were apparently mostly ignored.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 13:14:38 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for Galactic Sectors

>
>> Btw, if anyone wants a rough draft of the Reaver's Deep subsector, I 
am
>> willing to send it to you...
>


Where is that on the Imperial Map?
(Or is it?)
Roger Barr

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 14:23:01 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

steve daniels wrote:
> 
> "Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:
> 
> > > Here's food for thought:
> > >
> > > Let's say ship A is being carried in ship B. Ship B jumps into hyperspace.
> > > Sometime during the week, ship A executes a jump.
> > >
> > > What happens?
> >
> > Er, my mistake.  Ship *A* disappears.
> 
> I would think that A's attempt to enter Jump would fail without disastrous side
> effects.
> Its already in jump space.  So you couldn't even charge the lanthanum grid.

I don't think it is in jump space. Ship A is in a pocket of real space,
contained in jump space. 

> A would just sit there like a lump.  I don't see why the jump drive of A would
> work at all.
> Am I missing something?

Well, the one thing I thought of was that you couldn't give program accurate
jump coordinates into ship A's computer, because you don't know where, in real
space, you are. So you'd be guaranteed a misjump, at the very least.

> 
> > Ship B comes out where it was supposed to.
> 
> I agree with that.

Me too.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 14:25:42 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

Chris Seamans wrote:
> 
> Personally, if my PCs found themselves in a situation like this I might use
> it as a way to introduce time travel or travel to alternate dimensions. As
> an example, PCs might find themselves in the Wilds in the New Era, or the
> Regency, or maybe somewhere during the Terran/Ziru Sirka wars. On the other
> hand, it might be interesting to transport the PCs to somewhere far, far
> away in the galaxy. Possibly somewhere simply disorienting (deep in Hiver
> territory), hostile (deep in K'Kree territory), enlightening (deep in
> Zhodani territory), bizarre (one of the various "fringe" sectors from old
> third party CT materials), or just completely new and unheard of...

Anyone read Frederick Pohl's Gateway? I'd probably play it like that. You count
up how much food you have, and divide by two. If you haven't emerged from jump
space by then, you start drawing lots for suicides.

> BTW: Erwin Fritz, was it you who designed the Rorani and asked me to draw
> it? I came across some sketches in my sketch book and I could finish them up
> if you still need them.

I could use them for my library manual, but the urgency's gone. One of my PCs
adopted one as a pet. However, due to an unfortunate boarding incident with some
LSP troopers, the Roran died.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1376
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, January 7 1999     Volume 1998 : Number 1377



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Looking for Galactic Sectors 
LOM - Surprise
sublimation vs. evaporation
Why Use Armour in FFS etc
Airlocks - Waterbased
Re: Why Use Armour in FFS etc
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: sublimation vs. evaporation
Re: Why Use Armour in FFS etc
Re: Recursive Jump
Murphy's Rules In Re: GT tech levels
Re: sublimation vs. evaporation
Re: Murphy's Rules In Re: GT tech levels
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: The Subsidized Merchant
Imperial Intelligence  was Re: Stratfor Global Intelligence report for 1999
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: StarCruiser
[BITS] Authors details
ClarisDraw Users
Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4
Re: Aslan & Vargr tactics
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: Aslan & Vargr tactics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 16:27:54 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for Galactic Sectors 

> >> Btw, if anyone wants a rough draft of the Reaver's Deep subsector, I am
> >> willing to send it to you...
> 
> Where is that on the Imperial Map?
> (Or is it?)

Just spinward of Daibei, just rimward of Dark Nebula.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 21:42:37 +0000
From: dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com
Subject: LOM - Surprise

Well having seen a copy of LOM for sale at http://www.titan-games.com/ 
that did surprise me.



Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 14:47:49 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: sublimation vs. evaporation

>>>>
By the way, anyone know the difference between "sublimation" and "evaporation"?

Pete
>>>>
Sublimation is a material changing from solid to gaseous without going through liquid.  Evaporation is going from liquid to gaseous.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 22:06:29 +0000
From: dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com
Subject: Why Use Armour in FFS etc

Once the TL is producing Gravatic plates, would these not
provide a good source of resistance against projectile weapons.

If a gravatic field was compressed around a Grav Tank, outside of
the structure would it provide a few more factors of protection.

EG if say a focused field of 8G surrounded a Grav Tank, then 
a projective would have to hit the field and punch through 8G 
to hit the main hull.

For Grav Vehicles the Gravatic force fields could provide protection
against rain etc.


Any learned comments 



Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 22:11:38 +0000
From: dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com
Subject: Airlocks - Waterbased

Assuming that the pressure of atmosphere in a ship is not too 
excessive, could a powerful torrent of water (waterfall like) be
used as a primative airlock.  (Assuming that it did not freeze)
A good dose of Antifreeze mixed in would be required, and caution
to those not accustomed to being coated in water and entering 
Vaccumm only to Freeze in place being given.



Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:22:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Why Use Armour in FFS etc

dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com writes:
> 
> Once the TL is producing Gravatic plates, would these not
> provide a good source of resistance against projectile weapons.

Depends how strong they are.  At the levels in Traveller, not really.  In order
to stop conventional (not ETC or gauss) bullets with a field a meter deep, you
would need 30-50 thousand Gs.  High velocity gauss weapons might require a
million Gs or more.

It is useful as an anti-riot measure, though.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 14:30:19 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

>
>steve daniels wrote:
>> 
>> "Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:
>> 
>> > > Here's food for thought:
>> > >
>> > > Let's say ship A is being carried in ship B. Ship B jumps into 
hyperspace.
>> > > Sometime during the week, ship A executes a jump.
>> > >
>> > > What happens?
>> >
>> > Er, my mistake.  Ship *A* disappears.
>> 
>> I would think that A's attempt to enter Jump would fail without 
disastrous side
>> effects.
>> Its already in jump space.  So you couldn't even charge the lanthanum 
grid.
>
>I don't think it is in jump space. Ship A is in a pocket of real space,
>contained in jump space. 
>
>> A would just sit there like a lump.  I don't see why the jump drive 
of A would
>> work at all.
>> Am I missing something?
>
>Well, the one thing I thought of was that you couldn't give program 
accurate
>jump coordinates into ship A's computer, because you don't know where, 
in real
>space, you are. So you'd be guaranteed a misjump, at the very least.
>
>> 
>> > Ship B comes out where it was supposed to.
>> 
>> I agree with that.
>
>Me too.
>

IMTU, I'd warn the intrepid astrogator that this move has never been 
recorded in the 1k+ years of Imperial Interstellar Exploration History. 
If they really want to try it I'd say "Roll 2d6 and pray."
(NO skill will help this one!)
2=both ships are destroyed in an incredible display of jumpspace 
pyrotechnics.
7=ship b is thrown out of jumpspace early (misjump), ship a never 
finished the shift into hyperspace.
12=one serious misjump to God only knows where (but they'd be alive...)


Roger Barr


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Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 14:33:04 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: sublimation vs. evaporation

>Sublimation is a material changing from solid to gaseous without going 
through liquid.  Evaporation is going from liquid to gaseous.
>- Joseph
>
>



Sublimation is being hit by a FGMP at close range...
;)
Roger

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 16:37:12 -0600 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Why Use Armour in FFS etc

>EG if say a focused field of 8G surrounded a Grav Tank, then
>a projective would have to hit the field and punch through 8G
>to hit the main hull.


An unlearned observation:

8Gs is only 80 m/s or so, so the 12 cm KEAP round doing 3,600 m/s will now
only hit you at 3,520 m/s.

I don't think it'll help much, and it'd be cheaper/less mass/less energy to
just layer on a little more superdense.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:40:52 -0000
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Recursive Jump

Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com> wrote:

>Let's say ship A is being carried in ship B. Ship B jumps into hyperspace.
>Sometime during the week, ship A executes a jump.
>
>What happens?

I think this was written up in Project Farstar, in an old issue of 
Challenge...I'll look it up for you, but I think it doesn't work (TM)
or Blows every thing up!

Cheers

Derrick

Derrick Jones
St Helens 
Lancashire UK

mailto:dojones@whitestar.u-net.com
http://www.whitestar.u-net.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 16:48:48 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Murphy's Rules In Re: GT tech levels

Eppu Tuominen wrote:

<<snips chart>>
> 
>   Has anybody else noticed something funny about these TL conversions? I
> was under the impression, that (Traveller)TL-8 was supposed to be what we
> have today. (GURPS)TL-8 is most certainly not this. GURPS High Tech ends
> at GTL-7, and GURPS Ultra Tech begins at GTL-8.
> 
In SJG's current _Murphy's Rules_ compilation, the following rule
appears on page 36:

   "Sitting In Times Square, Waiting For The Ball To Drop"

In Steve Jackson Games' GURPS, the basic set of rules tells us that
Technology LEVEL 8 begins on JAN. 1, 2000.  At his time such items as
human cloning, powerful EXOSKELETAL SUITS, pistol sized LASER WEAPONS,
and immensely powerful CYBORGS ALL become AVAILABLE!  [all-cap items are
boldface in original]

(The illustration shows two men, one in a mundane suit, and the other in
what appears to be a vacc suit.  The one in the vacc suit is saying,
"Hold on, my watch says that I'm due for a technological revolution in
30 seconds!")

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 16:54:46 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: sublimation vs. evaporation

Roger Barr wrote:
> 
> >Sublimation is a material changing from solid to gaseous without going
> through liquid.  Evaporation is going from liquid to gaseous.
> >- Joseph
> >
> >
> 
> Sublimation is being hit by a FGMP at close range...
> ;)
> Roger
> 
How sublime!  (For the firer, not the target....)
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 17:05:05 -0600 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Murphy's Rules In Re: GT tech levels

>>   Has anybody else noticed something funny about these TL conversions?

>(The illustration shows two men, one in a mundane suit, and the other in
>what appears to be a vacc suit.  The one in the vacc suit is saying,
>"Hold on, my watch says that I'm due for a technological revolution in
>30 seconds!")


This points out quite nicely the fact that tech levels are arbitrary
conventions used by statisticians, and not real things. :-) TLs don't
change abruptly, they flow into one another. A civiliation rated at a very
early TL 8 can appear *completely* different one that is rated at a very
advanced TL 8.

Potential plot hooks are, of course, left to the readers' own imaginations. :-)

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 17:05:12 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

>what subject(s)?

Texas History

:)

tv

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 18:18:55 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

Chris Seamans wrote:

> Bloo said:
>
> >I would think that A's attempt to enter Jump would fail without disastrous
> side
> >effects.
> >Its already in jump space.  So you couldn't even charge the lanthanum grid.
> >A would just sit there like a lump.  I don't see why the jump drive of A
> would
> >work at all.
> >Am I missing something?
>
> Either you're missing something or I'm missing something. Why wouldn't you
> be able to charge up a drive inside jumpspace?

You're already in jumpspace, so whatever the lanthanum gird and jumpdrive
does when it starts up in normal space won't work.  I'm not jump engineer,
but it seems to me that jump drives 'warp' normal space/time.  They're
designed to warp normal space into jumpspace.

If thats true, and it is for MTU, not that this has ever come up, then the jump
drive is _not_ designed to warp jump space into jump space.  There is
no normal space for the jump drive to do its magic to.  No normal space to
grab and then to subsequently bend.

Ok, ok, I see it coming.  The ship is in a normal space bubble that is inside
jump space.  I say so what?

Does a jump drive 'connect' and entry point and and exit point?
Or does it simply point you in a certain direction, and then drop you
out of jump after a certain amount of time?.

If it 'connects,' then real space bubble or no, there is nothing to connect to
at
the other end.

If it just pushes you into jumpspace for a certain amount of time, well, then
maybe
Ka-Boom, but I think I can twist my way out of that corner.

Jump space and normal space exist 'side-by-side' in the universe.
A jump drive cuts off a bubble of normal space and pushes it into and through
jump space.  Whatever is in the bubble is no longer in normal space, but is
rather in jumpspace, albeit bubbled.

When something is in jumpspace, its in jumpspace, bubble or no.
So, it cannot push into jumpspace because its already there.

If you change the metaphor from bubbles to holes, then maybe I agree,
a hole being a rip in the 'fabric' meaning that its a gap in the relevant
material, i.e.,
a hole in jumpspace would have no jumpspace in it and nothing in jump could
go through it.  Whereas a bubble doesn't rip the fabric, but rather, pushes
through
and around it.

Now if that real world bubble in jump space can only be created in normal space
and then pushed into jumpspace, trying to create another bubble, within the
bubble
jumpspace won't work because the hardware just isn't capable of grabbing onto
enough normal space to do the trick.

Boy oh boy thats a mess, but it makes sense to me.

;-)

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 00:13:42 +0100
From: Volker Greimann <greimann@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: The Subsidized Merchant

>http://surf.to/traveller-trader
>            -or-
>http://members.xoom.com/ProCam/trader.html
Is the site down?
I cant reach it...
Volker
- ---
Volker A. Greimann, greimann@geocities.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:36:17 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Imperial Intelligence  was Re: Stratfor Global Intelligence report for 1999

From: Matt Clonfero 
> Alan Bradley wrote:
> >Remember, these guys are probably ex-CIA.  They might be prone to see
> >threats where other people wouldn't.
> 
> Indeed, liable to see threats were they don't actually exist.

I was being kind.
 
> ObTraveller: Are the Imperial intelligence organisations similar to the
> US model - i.e. multiple agencies, each with it's own agenda and varying
> amount of paranoia,

From Survival Margin (p55) (a TNE book):
('TNS' is a Traveller News Service reporter.  IK is Ililek Kuligaan,
defected former head of one of Dulinor's intelligence services)

TNS:  Yes, well, having already alienated Archduke Dulinor, you have now,
rightly or wrongly, incurred the wrath, deadly wrath, some will point out,
of 17 powerful intelligence organizations by my count, including Imperial
Naval Intelligence, Naval Counter-Intelligence, the Imperial Ministries of
Information and Justice, IRIS, the Vermene-
....
[the Vermene, of course, are the Tukera lines security organisation - that
is they are the private security service of a chunk of the nobility!]
....
IK:  First of all, I should like to point out that these enemies are not so
powerful as everyone imagines.  Were they half so powerful as everyone
believed, the Imperium would not have disintegrated into the state in which
we find it today.
....
IK:  And what do they [Intelligence agencies] tell their rulers?  Exactly
what they already know their rulers want to hear.  ...  And with each
intelligence organization whispering this same lie [victory is around the
corner] into the ear of each faction leader, how is this war to reach an
end.  It will reach its end over our dead bodies.
....
IK:  ... they became experts at bureaucratic infighting, at fighting for
their agendas within the government, and not at diligently searching for
the truth, not at courageously reporting unpleasant truths to their
superiors....

OK, this is *not* an impartial account.  (And I left lots out, and still
probably overquoted!)  By this view, the Imperial intelligence services do
exhibit the negative characteristics Matt suggested.  But then again, it's
an unbalanced account, and usually they probably aren't this bad. 

During the FFW, there was infighting between Naval Intelligence and the
pro-Santanocheev Office of Naval Information, according to Spinward Marches
Campaign (CT).

Well, I'm glad we got something useful out of the post I forwarded.  I
hoped it might amuse someone, but apparently not...  <sigh>

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 18:21:50 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

Erwin Fritz wrote:

> Well, the one thing I thought of was that you couldn't give program accurate
> jump coordinates into ship A's computer, because you don't know where, in real
> space, you are. So you'd be guaranteed a misjump, at the very least.

Here we go.  This works for me.  Your jump drive can't work because you
can't focus it on any real space to depart.

There.  Thanks for that idea.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 18:25:16 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

Roger Barr wrote:

> IMTU, I'd warn the intrepid astrogator that this move has never been
> recorded in the 1k+ years of Imperial Interstellar Exploration History.

I think I'll use it as a left-handed monkey wrench that grizzled old
engineers
send novices off for.

"Spacehand Jones.  Get in the jump shuttle, fire up the jump drive and jump
back to Regina.  Get my left handed monkey wrench from my desk at the
Naval base, and then jump back here.  I forgot to grab it before we
entered jump space.  And don't let me catch you without that wrench!
Now, git!"

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:02:59 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: StarCruiser

 yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich) wrote:

>What is "NAM" in Star Cruiser? Enlighten me.

Naval Architects' Manual - Ship design rules and sequence. Sort of QSDS
complexity.

>And please, no jokes about "the 'Nam" ;-)

Okay, as you asked so nicely...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:15:52 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [BITS] Authors details

BITS (British Isles Traveller Support)

Can the various people who have worked on 101 books/IG material for
BITS/CORE contact me as I need your help for something for the Website?
Specifically a picture and a concise bio, with details of your own websites
(if appropriate).

I have gone via the TML, TWG and HIWG lists on this as I think most of you
are on one of them, and Andy is busy with real life (tm) at the moment.

Dom (BITS webmaster)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:19:37 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: ClarisDraw Users

Can anyone out there convert ClarisDraw (Mac) files to either Illustrator 7
(or less) or Claris/Appleworks 3, 4 or 5 (Mac)?

(I need to convert Zane Healey's Deck Plan symbols.)

Thanks,

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:24:05 +1300
From: "Anson Betts" <AFBetts@salcom.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's Traveller 4

>>Nope, but 2300 came from Twilight 2000  (Well, so far as in using the
>>same timeline) :P
>
>Timeline, yes. Rules system, no.
>
>However, seeing as Tw2K had slightly different timelines depending
>on the version, the question would be *which* timeline did 2300
>evolve from?  ;-p  Or did Traveller 2300 evolve from Tw2K v1 and
>2300AD from Tw2K v2? ;-/`
>
AFAIK, 2300 came from 1st edition T2000. 2300 was written in 1988 according
to the box, and therefore predated T2000 2nd edition by several years :)

Cheers,
 Anson.

Oook Oook

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 15:26:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Aslan & Vargr tactics

> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 16:37:40 -0700
> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> 
[re the Kzinti]
> Better yet...read about the original (in a number of stories in Larry
> Niven's Known Space series).
> 
> Seems they first encountered a human ship with a big honking laser
> driving a lightsail (IIRC, and Niven _did_ take liberties with physics).

Nope, just a big honking laser, being used directly as a photon drive. 
Ship was named the _Angel's Pencil_ -- long, thin drive/service core with
lifesystem in a rotating ring around the midsection.  Only Ian Banks has
better ship names than Niven. :) 

> They had telepaths on board the Kzin ship, who reported that these
> furless apes were _so_ stupid that they had ventured into interstellar
> space with NO weapons!!!
> 
> Such easy prey, Ha! 
> 
> IIRC there was like a handful of badly burned Kzin who limped back home
> in their mostly wrecked ship after the 'unarmed hairless apes' turned
> their drive onto the attacking aliens... The Kzin really feared us for a
> while there.

Actually, *none* of the Kzinti survived the engagement, and the ship was
mostly unuseable.  Just enough left for the humans to pick over, analyze,
and discover just how big a problem they'd stumbled onto...

Title of the story was "The Warriors."

- -- 
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      "The hills were burning, and the wind was raging; and the
       clock struck midnight in the Garden of Allah."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:43:26 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

From: Roger Barr 
> If they really want to try it I'd say "Roll 2d6 and pray."

The basic game mechanics from CT, and why I prefer it to all the other
versions.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 16:35:24 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Aslan & Vargr tactics

Craig Berry wrote:
Snipo

> 
> Actually, *none* of the Kzinti survived the engagement, and the ship was
> mostly unuseable.  Just enough left for the humans to pick over, analyze,
> and discover just how big a problem they'd stumbled onto...
> 
> Title of the story was "The Warriors."

Tells you how long my Niven books have been buried in storage :-(

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1377
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, January 7 1999     Volume 1998 : Number 1378



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Weapons and Such
Re: Book Recommendation: Red Mars
Re: GT tech levels 
Re: ClarisDraw Users
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Book Recommendation: Red Mars
Re: ClarisDraw Users
Re: Looking for Galactic Sectors 
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: GT tech levels 
Re: Looking for Galactic Sectors 
Re: Looking for Galactic Sectors 
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: Surveillance
Re: StarCruiser
Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)
Re: jumpspace recursion (not short)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:58:34 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Weapons and Such

In a message dated 1/7/99 8:14:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca writes:

<< 
 "Yes, Sir John, I understand that you have the right to carry that sidearm
 as a vassal of His Majesty. That sidearm isn't the issue. However, you
 have 'lost' ten sidearms this year, one of which was used to commit a
 murder last week. The Tweezlethorp Court sentenced you to the uranium
 mines for arms smuggling. Seems the chap who bought that last sidearm paid
 you to lose it...  >>

	A knight may be in that position, but couldn't a high noble demand
trial by his peers in the Moot?
		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:01:34 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Book Recommendation: Red Mars

In a message dated 1/7/99 10:05:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, pbrenton@mit.edu
writes:

<< 
 By the way, anyone know the difference between "sublimation" and
"evaporation"?
 
 Pete >>

	Sublimation is direct transformation from SOLID to GAS
	Evaporation is transformation from LIQUID to GAS

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 16:02:47 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GT tech levels 

>  Has anybody else noticed something funny about these TL conversions? I
>was under the impression, that (Traveller)TL-8 was supposed to be what we
>have today. (GURPS)TL-8 is most certainly not this. GURPS High Tech ends
>at GTL-7, and GURPS Ultra Tech begins at GTL-8.

Actually, when Basic was put out we were condsidered to be at GTL 7.
We are generally considered to be currently in transition from GTL 7 to GTL 8.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 16:05:40 -0800 (PST)
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: ClarisDraw Users

> 
> Can anyone out there convert ClarisDraw (Mac) files to either Illustrator 7
> (or less) or Claris/Appleworks 3, 4 or 5 (Mac)?
> 
> (I need to convert Zane Healey's Deck Plan symbols.)
> 

Hmmm, you might try asking Zane Healy, he might be able to do it.  Oh, wait
a minute, that's me isn't it :^)  I might be able to convert them to either
Illustrator 5.5, or ClarisWorks 4.0 depending on how well they can be cut
and pasted.  Drop me a line and let me know exactly what you're looking for.

Glad to see some people find those useful.

		Zane



> Thanks,
> 
> Dom
> 
> ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
> "Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
> that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
> You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
> 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
> MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:05:44 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

In a message dated 1/7/99 11:15:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,
swordworlder@yahoo.com writes:

<< 
 But, remember, one new component has been added to the mix today: we
 are the parents!  Seriously, many of us who have been gaming Traveller
 since the CT days are now the parents of middle schoolers, myself
 included.  If my sixth-grader said she wanted to join a gaming club
 I'd be all for it, obviously.  She is already a sci-fi fan (I wonder
 how that happened?) so, after explaining the good and bad, right and
 wrong of gaming based on our family code of morality, I'd encourage
 her.  IMO, the ignorance should be diminishing.  But what do I know! >>

	There is also a new factor in the mix as well, computer games.   When RPG's
are compared to computer games, they seem rather tame (especially a nice,
nearly stodgy game like Traveller).

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 16:20:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Book Recommendation: Red Mars

> Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:03:06 -0500
> From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
> 
> Just finished Red Mars by Kim Stanley Robinson and was very impressed.

Glad you enjoyed it; I didn't, really, despite many glowing
recommendations.  Found the characters mostly wooden, the politics and
motivations far-fetched; the physical setting and science were nice, but
that didn't make up for its failings as a story.  Read all of 'Red' and a
third of 'Green' before giving up with a sigh.

> By the way, anyone know the difference between "sublimation" and
> "evaporation"? 

Sublimation is a direct phase change from solid to gas.  What solid carbon
dioxide ("dry ice") does at 1 atm and room temperature is the most
familiar example.  It's "dry" because it has no liquid phase at 1 atm.
Evaporation is a phase change from liquid to gas.

- -- 
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      "The hills were burning, and the wind was raging; and the
       clock struck midnight in the Garden of Allah."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:21:41 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: ClarisDraw Users

you could email them to me and I could try.
Not sure what version of CW I have, think it is 4.0

TV

>>
>> Can anyone out there convert ClarisDraw (Mac) files to either Illustrator
7
>> (or less) or Claris/Appleworks 3, 4 or 5 (Mac)?
>>
>> (I need to convert Zane Healey's Deck Plan symbols.)
>>
>
>Hmmm, you might try asking Zane Healy, he might be able to do it.  Oh, wait
>a minute, that's me isn't it :^)  I might be able to convert them to either
>Illustrator 5.5, or ClarisWorks 4.0 depending on how well they can be cut
>and pasted.  Drop me a line and let me know exactly what you're looking
for.
>
>Glad to see some people find those useful.
>
> Zane
>
>
>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Dom
>>
>> ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
>> "Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
>> that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
>> You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
>> 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
>> MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/
>>
>>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 16:47:49 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for Galactic Sectors 

> > Btw, if anyone wants a rough draft of the Reaver's Deep subsector, I am
> > willing to send it to you...
> 
> *chuckle*
> 
> Already got it for Trav Tools.

Yes, I know you sent it to me...  So I could develop Reaver's Deep for
Gal2.4...

> Keven

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 18:33:36 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 1/7/99 11:15:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> swordworlder@yahoo.com writes:
> 
> <<
>  But, remember, one new component has been added to the mix today: we
>  are the parents!  Seriously, many of us who have been gaming Traveller
>  since the CT days are now the parents of middle schoolers, myself
>  included.  If my sixth-grader said she wanted to join a gaming club
>  I'd be all for it, obviously.  She is already a sci-fi fan (I wonder
>  how that happened?) so, after explaining the good and bad, right and
>  wrong of gaming based on our family code of morality, I'd encourage
>  her.  IMO, the ignorance should be diminishing.  But what do I know! >>
> 
>         There is also a new factor in the mix as well, computer games.   When RPG's
> are compared to computer games, they seem rather tame (especially a nice,
> nearly stodgy game like Traveller).
> 
Until the players realize that, while computer games have AIs that limit
their actions, RPGs have far fewer constraints.  (At least, I know that
_I_ have been frustrated by computer games that wouldn't let me try what
I wanted to try.  I'm always willing to accept that I may fail, but
dammit, let me _try_!)

>                 Dave Nelson

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:44:49 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: GT tech levels 

>Shrug.  According to classic traveller I should be flying around in a grav
raft
>by now.  (Classic) traveller TL 8 is above current tech


Actually, according to the classic Traveller material in front of me we
should already have: air/rafts and GCarriers, our energy sources should be
fusion, and we will have perfected weather control. Mind you, these would
not be new technologies! The newest would have been invented 9 or 10 years
ago!

Now, in addition, we'd already have or soon will have: laser rifles, ablat,
beam lasers, reactionless drives A through D, and limb regeneration. Our
scientists had better get cracking, though! We only have a year (or two, if
you're going to be technical) to get these technologies out!

However, we won't see cloning until TL 13, which is above average Imperial.
That could be quite awhile.

Yeah, I know the cloning issue has been handwaved with the Vilani/Solomani
thing. It still makes me laugh a bit though.

So here's my question concerning _Traveller_ TLs:

Classic Traveller and T4 are exactly the same with their TL scales, which
would put us currently at TL9. However, MT and TNE use a modified scale,
which puts us firmly in the middle of TL 8. Which one of these is right?

Personally, I'll take the GURPS TL system at the moment, since it _is_ the
only one that doesn't seem terribly broken.

>Actually, the conversion should be that (GTL) 11 is traveller TL 14-16 or
so --
>GTL 11 includes early force fields and antimatter power plants, by TL 12
you
>have personal deflector shields, vehicular antimatter power plants and
>weaponry, and a few other technologies.


Let's see, also according to GURPS, contragravity and reactionless thrusters
don't appear until quite a bit later. Of course, it was a simple matter for
Loren to move the development up a bit to cover this. At the same time, no
force fields (other than black globes and white globes) exist _at all_ in
the Traveller Universe. Several other technologies that are listed in
various GURPS books don't exist either.

>The technology conversion was the subject of significant complaints during
the
>original playtest, which were apparently mostly ignored.


IMHO, good thing. The way the TL conversion comes out for me is fine.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 19:47:04 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for Galactic Sectors 

> > > Btw, if anyone wants a rough draft of the Reaver's Deep subsector, I am
> > > willing to send it to you...
> > 
> > *chuckle*
> > 
> > Already got it for Trav Tools.
> 
> Yes, I know you sent it to me...  So I could develop Reaver's Deep for
> Gal2.4...

Altzheimer's, my man, Altzheimer's.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:23:22 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for Galactic Sectors 

> From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@glasscity.net>
> Subject: Re: Looking for Galactic Sectors 
> 
> > > > Btw, if anyone wants a rough draft of the Reaver's Deep subsector,
I am
> > > > willing to send it to you...
> > > *chuckle*
> > > Already got it for Trav Tools.
> > Yes, I know you sent it to me...  So I could develop Reaver's Deep for
> > Gal2.4...
> Altzheimer's, my man, Altzheimer's.

And, I thought I was the old gaming fart on the TML..  *weg*

> Keven

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:19:33 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

- -----Original Message-----
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 9:09 PM
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics


>Clif said:
>>>Maybe because on a high TL battlefield such behavior would be (at the
very
>>>least) contrary to survival?
>>
>>Would it?  Has anyone playtested these "strategies" and wouldn't a "morale
>>modifier" come into play after the howl?  Did pyschological warfare REALLY
>>go out the window, since psyches are still a major factor in high TL
>>battles?
>
>
>Any "morale modifier" that would be a result of such an activity would be
>balanced out by the fact that Vargr numbers would dwindle due to being
>vaporized by high-powered plasma weapons.

By WHAT plasma weapons?  Any SMART ship would run from the pack and leave
the weak target alone to be victimized.  The victim might get off some
shots, but would be overwhelmed by the pack of "ravening wolves."  Maybe you
should go back and read the original post, again.
>
>>How about some kind of beam that made a "speaker" out of all of the solids
>>of the ship, so that everyone on the ship would hear the howl surrounding
>>them?  Like a backwards Laser microphone?  Instead of reading the
>vibrations
>>of a solid to "listen" it could MAKE vibrations in a solid to "speak"...
>
>
>I could think of a couple of things that the Vargr would do with such a
>technology that would be much more useful. I'm sure the Vargr would think
>that other uses would be much better.

...and they could USE the technology for those others uses, but it would be
preceded by a howl.
>
>>Why does technological evolution have to occur in parallels?  Couldn't the
>>Vargr have non-game-imbalancing technologies that the humanoids don't yet
>>understand?  Only if your players were a bunch of Vargr "on the inside"
>>would you have to come up with some kind of explanation for the
technology.
>
>
>Maybe. The concept is pretty much moot, however. We're not talking about
two
>empires that just met last week. We're talking about two empires that have
>been in contact for hundreds of years.

You're talking about a RPG, "dude"!  Since when are you LOCKED IN to the
"current" date?  The T4 book actually brags that you can run a campaign from
anywhere way, way back to a time that is "up-to-the-minute."  Geez, and some
of you call ME close-minded!  You're the kind of person that probably thinks
artists should stick to "convention", eh?
>
>>Military textbooks had the common attack stategy of communist forces down
>to
>> a diagram(punch a hole through the center of the perimeter and fight your
>>way out while another part of your force flanks, I believe it was).
>Knowing
>>the strategy didn't make them any less of a threat.
>
>
>Yes, but: punch and flank is a million miles away from "howl and get picked
>off by enemies".

>Hmmm... I stand by my statement even in light of your confusing Top Gun
>analogy: If Vargr always chose the "howl and run" tactic you outlined,

I DIDN'T outline a "howl and run" tactic, my reading
comprehensionally-challenged acquaintance.  The ones who ran were the OPFOR
of JRTC in Arkansas, and I was describing their methods to show that even
"SENTIENT" beings howl when they engage in warfare.  How much more would
semi-canines?(or whatever they are...)

> they
>would be predictable AND ineffectual. Not caring whether or not your
buddies
>get fragged as a result of instinct is kind of silly.

No one said that they had to stand off at a "pot shot" distance with targets
on their chests when they "howled".  Besides, making a speaker out of the
ship may give them the time they need to close the distance.

> As a result, they
>would not revel in their instinct but try to suppress it. If not, they'd
>lose by rapidly dwindling numbers.
>
They wouldn't be the only ones whose forces would be dwindling.  And who is
to say that the Vargr would not wait to "howl" until a preemptive strike had
been made?  You, I guess.
>
>>The thuds and booms of artillery and tank rounds makes for good
>>chest-beating and suppressed forces often yelled at each other.
>
>
>The booms of artillery and tank rounds also have another, more practical
>purpose. That purpose is blowing up the enemy. The main purpose of tanks
and
>artillery is not bravado, as in my analogy, but destruction of vehicles,
>structures and personnel.

But the booms have secondary effects, nevertheless, which was my point.
(You think I don't know that artillery is used to blow shit up?)
>
>>A classic scene is the V.C. on the wire in "Apocalypse Now".  "G.I.,
>>Fuc-BOOM!"
>
>
>An example from a movie that was intended to highlight the madness of war
>does _not_ support your argument. Personally, I always thought that
sequence
>illustrated a severely wounded soldier's attempt at dying quickly. Again,
it
>has nothing to do with my "chest beating" example.

Point taken.
>
>>Some dogs are already smart.  Vargr would be much smarter dogs.
>
>
>Yes, so smart as to be _sentient_. Sentience, to me at least, indicates
that
>they have many options open to them. Not merely one dictated directly and
>shallowly from their canine ancestors.

Sure, but I had said that military units tend to have SOP's, standard
operating procedures...  Even the Army TODAY, modern as it is, has some
damned silly rituals.  Have you ever seen an "ADJUTANT'S CALL"?  I couldn't
even wring the story behind it out of either of my S-1's when I was in the
Army.
>
>>How many are familiar with the Kafer in 2300 AD?  They basically acted
like
>>Roaches (after which they were named, in the German).  Slow, at first,
>until
>>you threatened them.  THEN the battle would get intense!  (Not that little
>>ol' Roaches try to fight off a human...)
>
>
>No. Kafer did not act like roaches. Not one bit. They acted like creatures
>with a low degree of sentient intelligence.

So you are saying that roaches have a high degree of sentient intelligence?
That would explain your definition of "sentient", I guess.

>However, when they felt
>threatened, their brain chemistry would begin to change, and they'd get
>smarter and smarter. They were a dull-brained sentient race that got more
>intelligent when threatened. However, despite the fact that they were
>relatively stupid by human standards, they still built weapons of high
>technology and hovercraft, and all kinds of nifty gadgets.

HEAVY DUTY equipment would be a better description.  I don't think a thud
gun that could do massive damage but dislocate your shoulder when you fired
it qualifies as "nifty."

As for the refresher, I wish you'd tell me something that I DON'T know.  Can
you not see that I must have known all of this when I said what I said about
the Kafer?  Can you not see that I qualified my statements with a
parenthetical disclaimer?  No, you've proven that you can't see.

>They weren't
>animals when they weren't in danger, they just weren't as intelligent or
>organized when they weren't in danger.
>
>>Whether this is fully accurate or not(I think that it is probably not the
>>best analogy), Kafer had a "strategy" that had to be learned.  They rarely
>>broke out of this "strategy".  Now, it might be argued that Kafer aren't
>>"sentient" during the first few rounds of combat...
>
>
>No, they are quite sentient, just not extremely bright. There is a
>difference. They were capable of building vehicles, weapons, and starships.
>
So by your previous statement, are you saying that the palmetto bugs here in
Florida are getting ready for a highly technological invasion?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:27:35 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

> You're already in jumpspace, so whatever the lanthanum gird and jumpdrive
> does when it starts up in normal space won't work.  I'm not jump engineer,
> but it seems to me that jump drives 'warp' normal space/time.  They're
> designed to warp normal space into jumpspace.

That would be contrary to the canonical treatment that jumpspace is a set of
alternate dimensions that don't normally apply (in a known way) to the normal
universe.   See the Imperial Encyclopedia and the article on Jumpspace by one
Marc Miller (on Kagehira's AAB) or the SOM for a more in-depth theory.  I seem
to remember somewhere else, too, but can't seem to remember from where.  What
the jump drive does is put u in those alternate dimensions (which have their
own properties).  What you're talking bout my make for a good sci fi ftl, but
it is not a Traveller jump drive.   This is even ignoring the whole lanthanum
grid thing (you could just substitute lanthanum "coil" for "grid," after all).
: ) 

Now, as for our hypothetical, it shouldn't normally have a beneficial effect,
under normal circumstances, or it would be a relatively common procedure (and
thus defined).  Maybe u could get a Quasispace thing that Star Control 2 had
layered onto Hyperspace, but you need a specially calibrated drive or... boom.
Or no boom today, but boom tommorrow.  ; )


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:27:01 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Surveillance

I'm sure that the representation was a bit more outdated than what is
actually available to the right people.  Further, the book and the movie are
a bit old, now.

- --Clif

>Read the book(s). In "Patriot Games" Clancy makes a point that the
>satellite images could *not* resolve things like faces. A key point was
>when someone noticed a female terrorist sunbathing, and there was a
>comment that the analysts had determined (in their spare time) what
>size breasts a woman had to have for the satellite to be able to show
>her as having visible cleavage. As I recall, it was fairly large.
>
>This turns out to be a critical point as it lets them identify a
>terrorist group.
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:29:53 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: StarCruiser

But the game I am talking about was a cockpit-view 3D combat simulation in
space, via modem.  You had to pay so much an hour.  It was based upon
StarCruiser or 2300AD...

- --Clif
- -----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Vickers <redroach@sprynet.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: StarCruiser


>
>THere is a PBEM starcruiser  game now.
>We are in the middle of our second battle, but I am sure new comers would
be
>welcome in the new fight.
>
>We use a version of the SC rules called Star Cruiser Light
>
>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/9292/scl.htm
>
>Oh yeah, No one HATES NAM more than me.
>
>TV
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:55:20 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)

Can someone give an exhaustive list of the traveller mailing lists
(including 2300) that are running, along with points of contact?

- --Clif
>Woo hoo!  I think you need to swing by the CT Resurgence eGroup and
>fire up the non-conversant folks over there.
>http://www.egroups.com/list/classic-traveller

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:15:06 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion (not short)

>Here's food for thought:
>
>Let's say ship A is being carried in ship B. Ship B jumps into hyperspace.
>Sometime during the week, ship A executes a jump.
>
>What happens?
>

I always enjoy this discussion - it brings up so *many* humorous points!

Most people argue that either nothing will happen, or that it will be a
disaster once the jump field forms.  I'd like to posit that it *will*
generally be a disaster, but that the field will never get the chance to
form.  Let us consider:

1) Jumping takes energy.  A *lot* of energy!  The fuel consumed is, in CT
terms, enough to power the ship for at least a year under normal usage.
Someone else can work up the figures, but under any incarnation of
Traveller, the Jump Drive uses the majority of the fuel available in a ship
(and therefore, the majority of the energy available to the ship) in a very
short period of time.

2) It has become pretty much accepted that the Lanthanum grid is used to
open the portal to J-space and give the ship the vector it needs to travel
through J-space.  I would assume then that the energy that the J-Drive
generates is put on the grid in such a fashion to accomplish this.

Now, as a Navy veteran, one of the first things you learn aboard ship is how
to drink.  The *second* thing you learn is to stay away from the antennas
with the red bases and from the radar dishes.  The red base on an antenna
indicates that it's a transmitter, and everyone knows what us crazy
Firecontrolmen do to seagulls with the ships radars... ;)  For the rest of
ya - radiant energy burns.  Think of the jokes about wet poodles and
microwave ovens.  The effect is similar.  And the most powerful radar on a
ship uses a relatively minor portion of the ship's available energy (it's
still a lot, just not relative to the *total* energy use of a ship.)

Back to Jumping - Ship B is sitting in the (hanger, launch tube or hull
grapple and/or cargo hold) and starts to power up the J-Drive.  Lots and
lots of energy is transformed from fuel to whatever the J-Drive creates and
is dumped onto the grid and *transmitted*.

What happens?

A lot is going to depend on the environment that ship B is in.  Is the
environment pressurized?  We just had a wonderful thread not to long ago
about jumping from an atmosphere.  My personal belief is that once the
energy field exceeds the dialectric value of the atmosphere, you are going
to get arcing between the grids.  Additionally, the hullmetal that the ship
is in proximity to probably makes a great conductor, and even if it is not
being used as a return path for shipboard circuitry (which would allow Ship
B to dump it's energy directly into the main power return for Ship A's
reactors), it will still allow for arcing between Ship B and Ship A when the
path to Ship A (possibly through any connection points between ship A and B,
such as docking grapples, landing claw, etc.) is shorter than the space
between the grid.  The energy in the field will be, if you are lucky,
drained off in the process of welding Ship A and B together (or vaporizing
significant portions of the hull) - otherwise the J-field isn't going to be
*anything* like what you would expect.

Additionally, while the field is still forming - atmosphere or no - it will
be expanding.  While there is a great deal of debate on what the effective
radius of the J-field is, that is to say how much N-Space environment is
maintained around the ship, I think it would be safe to say that the field
actually extends quite a distance from the ship beyond it's effective
radius.  It is very well established that when a field grows and shrinks
relative to a stationary conductor, it transfers energy from the field to
the conductor - that is how transformers work.  So you generate this honking
big field either inside a ship, or in proximity to the hull and you are
going to directly transfer energy from the J-field to the
power/data/structure of the mother ship.  So, the hull or internal structure
of Ship A is going to be energized.  Again, if the return path for ship's
power is through the hull (I would assume that it will be), then this power
is going to be shunted into the ship's electronics and power systems.  If it
is not, then all the portions of Ship A that are in 'conduction' are going
to be energized to a high extent.  Those portions of the ship that are
'insulated' from Ship B will not.  This will leave an area between the two
portions of the ship that have and energized conductor on one side,
separated from a non-energized conductor by (ahem) a dielectric.  This, by
the way, is a fundemental definition for a basic electrical component - a
capacitor.  And when something passes between the two conductors and allows
it to discharge...  (also, if the field exceeds the value of the dialectric,
you will get arcing within Ship A similar to what was described in the above
paragraph.)  Again, the effects on the mother ship are not going to be
pleasant, and the J-field, assuming it forms at all, is going to be *very*
different that what the astrogator would expect.

As the field grows, it will also affect the personnel in Ship A.  You will
be exposing them to the raw energy that far exceeds anything that a radio
antenna or radar dish puts out.  The only question whether the Vargr or
Aslan preferred their human cooked or raw...

All this before we even start discussing how the high-power initial field
generated by Ship B (to breach the barrier between N-Space and J-space) will
affect the relatively low-power 'maintenance' field of Ship A, whether or
not the J-fields are in phase, out of phase and how that would affect them,
how the ship's artificial gravity would affect the forming of the J-field,
etc...

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1378
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, January 7 1999     Volume 1998 : Number 1379



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1373
Re: V & A Tactics (XXX S-word Used!!)
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1373
re: jumpspace recursion
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:10:57 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

Where do they go?  

- --Clif
- -----Original Message-----
From: Walter G. Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu>
To: 'traveller@mpgn.com' <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, January 07, 1999 2:05 PM
Subject: re: jumpspace recursion


>Erwin Fritz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Here's food for thought:
>
>Let's say ship A is being carried in ship B. Ship B jumps into hyperspace.
>Sometime during the week, ship A executes a jump.
>
>What happens?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>IIRC, ship A is never seen again.
>
>Further, if ship A has two seperate jump drives installed, performs a
>jump, and sometime during the week fires up the second jump drive,
>it is also never seen again.
>
>Walt Smith
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 17:24:43
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1373

At 11:36 PM 1/6/99 EST, someone who is best not spoken of wrote:

>hey,   what happened to #1371?

There is no 1371.  Move along.  Do not discuss this.  All that is important
is that we were never here, this never happened, and 1371 never existed,
right?

Please look into the little red light...
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 17:26:53
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: V & A Tactics (XXX S-word Used!!)

At 02:42 PM 1/6/99 -0500, Clif wrote:
>
>>but I don't know of any battle in
>>World War II where the opposite sides stood up, screamed, waved their arms
>>and flung feces at each other, which is how chimps make war.

>Which is why when grenades are being chucked on the guy gets on the radio he
>says, "We're in a world of shit," "...the shit is coming down," or "we're in
>shit-storm."

no, that's a function of language.  Modern English to be exact, coming from
a cultural backround that places extreme distaste in any subject regarding
bodily wastes.

- --

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 18:18:01
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

At 08:19 PM 1/7/99 -0500, Clif wrote:

>>Clif said:
>>>>Maybe because on a high TL battlefield such behavior would be (at the
>>>>>very least) contrary to survival?
>>>
>>>Would it?  Has anyone playtested these "strategies" and wouldn't a "morale
>>>modifier" come into play after the howl?  Did pyschological warfare REALLY
>>>go out the window, since psyches are still a major factor in high TL
>>>battles?

Clif, one of the first lessons at the Infantry School is that standing out
is bad.  I was a sniper.  My first priority is the radioman.  My second
target is anybody who looks like he's in charge.  Ever hear the Infantry
Motto, "follow Me!"?  Imagine the result in morale when the LT jumps up,
screams that stirring slogan, and immediately gets several new holes in his
face and chest.

Screaming and taunting your foes is great when they can't hit you.  The
*only* modern force that makes use of such an effect is the Highlander
Regiments, who still bring pipers to the field.

>>Any "morale modifier" that would be a result of such an activity would be
>>balanced out by the fact that Vargr numbers would dwindle due to being
>>vaporized by high-powered plasma weapons.
>
>By WHAT plasma weapons?  Any SMART ship would run from the pack and leave
>the weak target alone to be victimized.  The victim might get off some
>shots, but would be overwhelmed by the pack of "ravening wolves."  Maybe you
>should go back and read the original post, again.

I have, three times.  When did we get into space?  You seem to be wavering
back and forth to whatever position best supports your odd theory.  In
space, I simply turn off my radio.  No howl.  On the ground, I use that
howl to warn everyone that the Vargr attack is imminent.  Hint from an
11B1V:  announcing you are about to attack is generally a bad thing.  The
NK/Chinese found this out in 1951, when American soldiers and Marines would
be alerted by the whistles and trumpets used to coordinate activities in
the radioless PLA.  Yes, they had nightmares about those trumpets, but they
were home,e alive to have those dreams.

>>>How about some kind of beam that made a "speaker" out of all of the solids
>>>of the ship, so that everyone on the ship would hear the howl surrounding
>>>them?  Like a backwards Laser microphone?  Instead of reading the
>>vibrations
>>>of a solid to "listen" it could MAKE vibrations in a solid to "speak"...

>>I could think of a couple of things that the Vargr would do with such a
>>technology that would be much more useful. I'm sure the Vargr would think
>>that other uses would be much better.
>
>...and they could USE the technology for those others uses, but it would be
>preceded by a howl.

And warn the victims that they were locked?  Why?  We are talking about an
intelligent race.  If they want to kill a ship, they are going to use the
most effective means at their disposal.  There might be Vargr cultures that
would consider giving fair warning, but this wouldn't be a racial trait.

I feel compelled to point out that howling is how wolves in the wild talk
to each other.  Biologists have identified many distinct calls, mostly of a
territorial nature.  Attacking wolves are silent, as not to startle prey.

>>>Why does technological evolution have to occur in parallels?  Couldn't the
>>>Vargr have non-game-imbalancing technologies that the humanoids don't yet
>>>understand?  Only if your players were a bunch of Vargr "on the inside"
>>>would you have to come up with some kind of explanation for the
>technology.
>>
>>Maybe. The concept is pretty much moot, however. We're not talking about
>>two empires that just met last week. We're talking about two empires that
>>have been in contact for hundreds of years.
>
>You're talking about a RPG, "dude"!  Since when are you LOCKED IN to the
>"current" date?  The T4 book actually brags that you can run a campaign from
>anywhere way, way back to a time that is "up-to-the-minute."  Geez, and some
>of you call ME close-minded!  You're the kind of person that probably thinks
>artists should stick to "convention", eh?

Ah.  The personal attacks begin.  Lovely.

We are discussing the Vargr, a game construct that has been around since
about 1980.  We know that the Vargr have been in contact with humaniti
since the time of the First Imperium.  For every published setting, Vargr
and humans have a long history.

>>>Military textbooks had the common attack stategy of communist forces down
>>to a diagram(punch a hole through the center of the perimeter and fight 
>>>your way out while another part of your force flanks, I believe it was).
>>>Knowing the strategy didn't make them any less of a threat.

Read up on Patton's early battles against Rommel.  Patton got ahold of
Rommel's book, "The Tank in the Attack", and based his defenses on what he
learned about Rommel's thought processes.  Kicked Nazi butt.

>>Yes, but: punch and flank is a million miles away from "howl and get picked
>>off by enemies".
>
>>Hmmm... I stand by my statement even in light of your confusing Top Gun
>>analogy: If Vargr always chose the "howl and run" tactic you outlined,
>
>I DIDN'T outline a "howl and run" tactic, my reading
>comprehensionally-challenged acquaintance.  The ones who ran were the OPFOR
>of JRTC in Arkansas, and I was describing their methods to show that even
>"SENTIENT" beings howl when they engage in warfare.  How much more would
>semi-canines?(or whatever they are...)

There is a world of difference between an Army facility where you run
against other Americans playing the OPFOR, and being in a situation where
people with guns are trying very hard to kill you.  Trust me, you do not
howl, you just thank God that you didn't die today, and hope that you don't
die tomorrow.

>> they would be predictable AND ineffectual. Not caring whether or not your
>>buddies get fragged as a result of instinct is kind of silly.
>
>No one said that they had to stand off at a "pot shot" distance with targets
>on their chests when they "howled".  Besides, making a speaker out of the
>ship may give them the time they need to close the distance.

You keep going back and forth between space and ground..

OK, this "howl ray" can turn the entire ship into a speaker, send an some
sort of audio signal through the vacuum of space, and be fired from such a
distance that the target ship can't respond effectively.

Makes Virus look positively plausible.

>> As a result, they would not revel in their instinct but try to suppress 
>>it. If not, they'd lose by rapidly dwindling numbers.

>They wouldn't be the only ones whose forces would be dwindling.  And who is
>to say that the Vargr would not wait to "howl" until a preemptive strike had
>been made?  You, I guess.

Your entire premise seems to shift as needed.  Why bother if the missiles
have been launched?

>>>The thuds and booms of artillery and tank rounds makes for good
>>>chest-beating and suppressed forces often yelled at each other.

>>The booms of artillery and tank rounds also have another, more practical
>>purpose. That purpose is blowing up the enemy. The main purpose of tanks
>>and artillery is not bravado, as in my analogy, but destruction of 
>>vehicles, structures and personnel.
>
>But the booms have secondary effects, nevertheless, which was my point.
>(You think I don't know that artillery is used to blow shit up?)

But that's not what they were designed for.  Which is what you seem to be
arguing.  Artillery is scary when it's hitting you.  On the other ridge,
it's piss-poor fireworks.  On the enemy's ridge, it's a spectator sport.

>>Yes, so smart as to be _sentient_. Sentience, to me at least, indicates
>>that they have many options open to them. Not merely one dictated
directly >>and shallowly from their canine ancestors.
>
>Sure, but I had said that military units tend to have SOP's, standard
>operating procedures...  Even the Army TODAY, modern as it is, has some
>damned silly rituals.  Have you ever seen an "ADJUTANT'S CALL"?  I couldn't
>even wring the story behind it out of either of my S-1's when I was in the
>Army.

Yet I have never been ordered to wave my arms over my head to make myself
look bigger, howl at the top of my lungs, and hurl feces to gain an
appointment to PLDS.  That is the difference.  Yes, the Army has SOP, and
those are *based on the logical needs of modern warfare and the Army
mission.*  Did you think that the Air-Land strategy just cam out of thin
air?  It's the evolution of everything we learned in Vietnam, along with
the known capabilities of our forces and the enemy.

>>>How many are familiar with the Kafer in 2300 AD?  They basically acted
>>>like Roaches (after which they were named, in the German).  Slow, at 
>>>first, until you threatened them.  THEN the battle would get intense!  
>>>(Not that little ol' Roaches try to fight off a human...)
>>
>>No. Kafer did not act like roaches. Not one bit. They acted like creatures
>>with a low degree of sentient intelligence.
>
>So you are saying that roaches have a high degree of sentient intelligence?
>That would explain your definition of "sentient", I guess.

No, roaches are insects.  They are nocturnal, are react poorly to light,
tending to scatter for dark areas.  The have lousy eyesight, and smell
through their knees.  They are dumber than bricks.  But they will survive
us humans, and probably whatever replaces us.

>>However, when they felt
>>threatened, their brain chemistry would begin to change, and they'd get
>>smarter and smarter. They were a dull-brained sentient race that got more
>>intelligent when threatened. However, despite the fact that they were
>>relatively stupid by human standards, they still built weapons of high
>>technology and hovercraft, and all kinds of nifty gadgets.
>
>HEAVY DUTY equipment would be a better description.  I don't think a thud
>gun that could do massive damage but dislocate your shoulder when you fired
>it qualifies as "nifty."

Why not?  Kafers are bigger and stronger than humans, so they can handle
heavier recoil.

>As for the refresher, I wish you'd tell me something that I DON'T know.  Can
>you not see that I must have known all of this when I said what I said about
>the Kafer?  Can you not see that I qualified my statements with a
>parenthetical disclaimer?  No, you've proven that you can't see.

You said "They basically acted like Roaches (after which they were named,
in the German)".  We have pointed out that the Kafers aren't anything like
roaches.  Nothing at all.  It was a nickname referring to how ugly they are
to human eyes, and their disgusting eating habits.  Their name for us
translated as "Meat Being."

>>>Whether this is fully accurate or not(I think that it is probably not the
>>>best analogy), Kafer had a "strategy" that had to be learned.  They rarely
>>>broke out of this "strategy".  Now, it might be argued that Kafer aren't
>>>"sentient" during the first few rounds of combat...

>>No, they are quite sentient, just not extremely bright. There is a
>>difference. They were capable of building vehicles, weapons, and starships.
>>
>So by your previous statement, are you saying that the palmetto bugs here in
>Florida are getting ready for a highly technological invasion?

Wow.  What we have here is a Jump-7 of a divergence.

Please read carefully Clif:

In the game setting 2300AD, there is a race called by the humans "Kafer",
their name for themselves is Vah.  This race is a four-limbed, warm blooded
race descended from a scavenger/hunter species that evolved on Gamma
Serpenti-III (Ka'ra!ah [Cruel Mother]).

This race is intelligent.  They build starships.  Palmetto bugs don't do
that.  This race also has a cultural fear of the "Smart Barbarian", due to
the nature of their history.  We fit the mold of the Smart Barbarian to a tee.

As far as I know, the Palmetto Bugs are not going to invade, but they could
be working for the government.  You never can tell.

- --

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 20:39:11 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1373

dberry@hooked.net wrote:
> 
> At 11:36 PM 1/6/99 EST, someone who is best not spoken of wrote:
> 
> >hey,   what happened to #1371?
> 
> There is no 1371.  Move along.  Do not discuss this.  All that is important
> is that we were never here, this never happened, and 1371 never existed,
> right?
> 
> Please look into the little red light...
> --
"Little red light"?  I don't recall seeing any....

What was I saying?

Never mind....


> Douglas E. Berry
> Templar Agent at Large.
> dberry@hooked.net
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html
> 
> TravGeekCode:
> tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
> ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
> 

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:38:09 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: jumpspace recursion

Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Where do they go?  

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Oz. To E by way of C squared. To a millisecond before the Big Bang.
To Philadelphia. GM's choice, I suppose. <G>

rest of post:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<snip>
>
>Let's say ship A is being carried in ship B. Ship B jumps into hyperspace.
>Sometime during the week, ship A executes a jump.
>
>What happens?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>IIRC, ship A is never seen again.
>
>Further, if ship A has two seperate jump drives installed, performs a
>jump, and sometime during the week fires up the second jump drive,
>it is also never seen again.
>
>Walt Smith
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 20:49:49 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

Clif wrote:
> 
> Where do they [referring to starships, one of which engages Jump drive within the hull of a starship already in Jumpspace] go?
> 
I have encountered two theories about where they would end up.

1.  They end up on a planet wholly dedicated to ball-point-pen
lifeforms.

2.  They find themselves buried in an infinite number of unmatched
socks.

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 20:51:00 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

Walter Smith wrote:
> 
> Clif wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> Where do they go?
> 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
> Oz. To E by way of C squared. To a millisecond before the Big Bang.
> To Philadelphia. GM's choice, I suppose. <G>
> 
They may find themselves in Scotland.  >;-)

<<snip>>
- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:03:27 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

>Clif, one of the first lessons at the Infantry School is that standing out
>is bad.  I was a sniper.

Okay, now take a pack of snipers who howl from the shadows and then quickly
descend with grav belts upon a village of weak, unarmed enemy sympathizers.
That's the vargr strategy I'm describing.

>  My first priority is the radioman.  My second
>target is anybody who looks like he's in charge.  Ever hear the Infantry
>Motto, "follow Me!"?  Imagine the result in morale when the LT jumps up,
>screams that stirring slogan, and immediately gets several new holes in his
>face and chest.

This is all common sense, stuff.  You're not educating me.
>
>Screaming and taunting your foes is great when they can't hit you.  The
>*only* modern force that makes use of such an effect is the Highlander
>Regiments, who still bring pipers to the field.

And the OPFOR at JRTC, "the most highly trained soldiers in the world".
They don't seem to have attended the same school as you.
>
>>>Any "morale modifier" that would be a result of such an activity would be
>>>balanced out by the fact that Vargr numbers would dwindle due to being
>>>vaporized by high-powered plasma weapons.
>>
>>By WHAT plasma weapons?  Any SMART ship would run from the pack and leave
>>the weak target alone to be victimized.  The victim might get off some
>>shots, but would be overwhelmed by the pack of "ravening wolves."  Maybe
you
>>should go back and read the original post, again.
>
>I have, three times.  When did we get into space?  You seem to be wavering
>back and forth to whatever position best supports your odd theory.  In
>space, I simply turn off my radio.  No howl.

Did you forget about the inverse laser microphone that transmits sound to a
solid instead of reads it?


> On the ground, I use that
>howl to warn everyone that the Vargr attack is imminent.  Hint from an
>11B1V:  announcing you are about to attack is generally a bad thing.  The
>NK/Chinese found this out in 1951, when American soldiers and Marines would
>be alerted by the whistles and trumpets used to coordinate activities in
>the radioless PLA.  Yes, they had nightmares about those trumpets, but they
>were home,e alive to have those dreams.

Fine, but a surprise attack scenario I am describing hand-in-hand with the
quick convergence upon the weak target in an overwhelming pack (escorted by
volleys of armament, of course) would be benefited by an unsettling howl.

>
>>>>How about some kind of beam that made a "speaker" out of all of the
solids
>>>>of the ship, so that everyone on the ship would hear the howl
surrounding
>>>>them?  Like a backwards Laser microphone?  Instead of reading the
>>>vibrations
>>>>of a solid to "listen" it could MAKE vibrations in a solid to "speak"...
>
>>>I could think of a couple of things that the Vargr would do with such a
>>>technology that would be much more useful. I'm sure the Vargr would think
>>>that other uses would be much better.
>>
>>...and they could USE the technology for those others uses, but it would
be
>>preceded by a howl.
>
>And warn the victims that they were locked?  Why?  We are talking about an
>intelligent race.

Intelligent races USE psychological warfare!

>  If they want to kill a ship, they are going to use the
>most effective means at their disposal.  There might be Vargr cultures that
>would consider giving fair warning, but this wouldn't be a racial trait.
>
>I feel compelled to point out that howling is how wolves in the wild talk
>to each other.  Biologists have identified many distinct calls, mostly of a
>territorial nature.  Attacking wolves are silent, as not to startle prey.

Okay, that argument has merit.
>
>>You're talking about a RPG, "dude"!  Since when are you LOCKED IN to the
>>"current" date?  The T4 book actually brags that you can run a campaign
from
>>anywhere way, way back to a time that is "up-to-the-minute."  Geez, and
some
>>of you call ME close-minded!  You're the kind of person that probably
thinks
>>artists should stick to "convention", eh?
>
>Ah.  The personal attacks begin.  Lovely.
>
>We are discussing the Vargr, a game construct that has been around since
>about 1980.  We know that the Vargr have been in contact with humaniti
>since the time of the First Imperium.  For every published setting, Vargr
>and humans have a long history.

So, you ARE locked in, then?
>
>>>>Military textbooks had the common attack stategy of communist forces
down
>>>to a diagram(punch a hole through the center of the perimeter and fight
>>>>your way out while another part of your force flanks, I believe it was).
>>>>Knowing the strategy didn't make them any less of a threat.
>
>Read up on Patton's early battles against Rommel.  Patton got ahold of
>Rommel's book, "The Tank in the Attack", and based his defenses on what he
>learned about Rommel's thought processes.  Kicked Nazi butt.

So the Vilani can kick some Vargr butt...
>
>>>Yes, but: punch and flank is a million miles away from "howl and get
picked
>>>off by enemies".

Go back and read my original post, AGAIN!
>>
>>>Hmmm... I stand by my statement even in light of your confusing Top Gun
>>>analogy: If Vargr always chose the "howl and run" tactic you outlined,
>>
>>I DIDN'T outline a "howl and run" tactic, my reading
>>comprehensionally-challenged acquaintance.  The ones who ran were the
OPFOR
>>of JRTC in Arkansas, and I was describing their methods to show that even
>>"SENTIENT" beings howl when they engage in warfare.  How much more would
>>semi-canines?(or whatever they are...)
>
>There is a world of difference between an Army facility where you run
>against other Americans playing the OPFOR, and being in a situation where
>people with guns are trying very hard to kill you.  Trust me, you do not
>howl, you just thank God that you didn't die today, and hope that you don't
>die tomorrow.
>
Then maybe you'd better go jump on the Army PAO officer's desk at Ft.
Chaffee for saying that the OPFOR were the most highly trained soldiers in
the world?

>>> they would be predictable AND ineffectual. Not caring whether or not
your
>>>buddies get fragged as a result of instinct is kind of silly.
>>
>>No one said that they had to stand off at a "pot shot" distance with
targets
>>on their chests when they "howled".  Besides, making a speaker out of the
>>ship may give them the time they need to close the distance.
>
>You keep going back and forth between space and ground..

No, I'm not!  I am continuously talking about both.  "Stand" doesn't
necessarily mean "on the ground."  You can stand off at a distance, even in
space.  It's an expression.  "My girlfriend was a bit 'stand-offish',
today."  That isn't really describing actual distance on the ground, is it?
>
>OK, this "howl ray" can turn the entire ship into a speaker, send an some
>sort of audio signal through the vacuum of space, and be fired from such a
>distance that the target ship can't respond effectively.

When did I ever say that couldn't respond effectively?  If they had the same
sort of ray and could get the thing pointed at a vargr ship they could do
the same.  Gee whiz.  You guys must LIKE trying to put words in my mouth.
>
>Makes Virus look positively plausible.

Explain, please.
>
>>> As a result, they would not revel in their instinct but try to suppress
>>>it. If not, they'd lose by rapidly dwindling numbers.
>
>>They wouldn't be the only ones whose forces would be dwindling.  And who
is
>>to say that the Vargr would not wait to "howl" until a preemptive strike
had
>>been made?  You, I guess.
>
>Your entire premise seems to shift as needed.  Why bother if the missiles
>have been launched?

The howl is in a LASER, jerk-off!  It travels at the speed of light!  It can
get there just before the missiles hit!
>
>>>>The thuds and booms of artillery and tank rounds makes for good
>>>>chest-beating and suppressed forces often yelled at each other.
>
>>>The booms of artillery and tank rounds also have another, more practical
>>>purpose. That purpose is blowing up the enemy. The main purpose of tanks
>>>and artillery is not bravado, as in my analogy, but destruction of
>>>vehicles, structures and personnel.
>>
>>But the booms have secondary effects, nevertheless, which was my point.
>>(You think I don't know that artillery is used to blow shit up?)
>
>But that's not what they were designed for.  Which is what you seem to be
>arguing.  Artillery is scary when it's hitting you.  On the other ridge,
>it's piss-poor fireworks.  On the enemy's ridge, it's a spectator sport.

Even handgrenades have a very haunting whump sound when detonating off in
the distance.
>
>>>Yes, so smart as to be _sentient_. Sentience, to me at least, indicates
>>>that they have many options open to them. Not merely one dictated
>directly >>and shallowly from their canine ancestors.
>>
>>Sure, but I had said that military units tend to have SOP's, standard
>>operating procedures...  Even the Army TODAY, modern as it is, has some
>>damned silly rituals.  Have you ever seen an "ADJUTANT'S CALL"?  I
couldn't
>>even wring the story behind it out of either of my S-1's when I was in the
>>Army.
>
>Yet I have never been ordered to wave my arms over my head to make myself
>look bigger, howl at the top of my lungs, and hurl feces to gain an
>appointment to PLDS.  That is the difference.  Yes, the Army has SOP, and
>those are *based on the logical needs of modern warfare and the Army
>mission.*  Did you think that the Air-Land strategy just cam out of thin
>air?  It's the evolution of everything we learned in Vietnam, along with
>the known capabilities of our forces and the enemy.

You don't understand what I was saying about the ADJUTANT CALL, do you?
>
>>>>How many are familiar with the Kafer in 2300 AD?  They basically acted
>>>>like Roaches (after which they were named, in the German).  Slow, at
>>>>first, until you threatened them.  THEN the battle would get intense!
>>>>(Not that little ol' Roaches try to fight off a human...)
>>>
>>>No. Kafer did not act like roaches. Not one bit. They acted like
creatures
>>>with a low degree of sentient intelligence.
>>
>>So you are saying that roaches have a high degree of sentient
intelligence?
>>That would explain your definition of "sentient", I guess.
>
>No, roaches are insects.  They are nocturnal, are react poorly to light,
>tending to scatter for dark areas.  The have lousy eyesight, and smell
>through their knees.  They are dumber than bricks.  But they will survive
>us humans, and probably whatever replaces us.

So I should consider the implication that roaches are sentient retracted?
>
>>>However, when they felt
>>>threatened, their brain chemistry would begin to change, and they'd get
>>>smarter and smarter. They were a dull-brained sentient race that got more
>>>intelligent when threatened. However, despite the fact that they were
>>>relatively stupid by human standards, they still built weapons of high
>>>technology and hovercraft, and all kinds of nifty gadgets.
>>
>>HEAVY DUTY equipment would be a better description.  I don't think a thud
>>gun that could do massive damage but dislocate your shoulder when you
fired
>>it qualifies as "nifty."
>
>Why not?  Kafers are bigger and stronger than humans, so they can handle
>heavier recoil.

Did I say that if Kafer "played nice" they would shoot wimpy .22 rifles?
You're putting words in my mouth, again.  Why don't you try doing something
ELSE for a change, like answering my points.
>
>>As for the refresher, I wish you'd tell me something that I DON'T know.
Can
>>you not see that I must have known all of this when I said what I said
about
>>the Kafer?  Can you not see that I qualified my statements with a
>>parenthetical disclaimer?  No, you've proven that you can't see.
>
>You said "They basically acted like Roaches (after which they were named,
>in the German)".  We have pointed out that the Kafers aren't anything like
>roaches.  Nothing at all.  It was a nickname referring to how ugly they are
>to human eyes, and their disgusting eating habits.  Their name for us
>translated as "Meat Being."

They ARE like roaches in that roaches will SPEED UP when they feel
threatened.  That was my point.
>
>>>>Whether this is fully accurate or not(I think that it is probably not
the
>>>>best analogy), Kafer had a "strategy" that had to be learned.  They
rarely
>>>>broke out of this "strategy".  Now, it might be argued that Kafer aren't
>>>>"sentient" during the first few rounds of combat...
>
>>>No, they are quite sentient, just not extremely bright. There is a
>>>difference. They were capable of building vehicles, weapons, and
starships.
>>>
>>So by your previous statement, are you saying that the palmetto bugs here
in
>>Florida are getting ready for a highly technological invasion?
>
>Wow.  What we have here is a Jump-7 of a divergence.
>
>Please read carefully Clif:
>
>In the game setting 2300AD, there is a race called by the humans "Kafer",
>their name for themselves is Vah.  This race is a four-limbed, warm blooded
>race descended from a scavenger/hunter species that evolved on Gamma
>Serpenti-III (Ka'ra!ah [Cruel Mother]).
>
>This race is intelligent.  They build starships.  Palmetto bugs don't do
>that.

No shit!  I wasn't the one whose reasoning was saying that palmetto bugs are
sentient, anymore than I was saying dogs or cats are sentient, was I? What I
DID do was question the poster's standards of what IS sentient, which seemed
to be a rather fuzzy science for said individual (I don't even know his
name...).

>  This race also has a cultural fear of the "Smart Barbarian", due to
>the nature of their history.  We fit the mold of the Smart Barbarian to a
tee.
>
>As far as I know, the Palmetto Bugs are not going to invade, but they could
>be working for the government.  You never can tell.
>
- --Clif

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1379
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, January 8 1999      Volume 1998 : Number 1380



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: jumpspace recursion 
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: Surveillance
Re: jumpspace recursion 
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
re: Man-Kzin war
re: Surveillance
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics 
Re: Man-Kzin war
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Vargrs and psychological warfare
Re: Man-Kzin war 
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Fwd: Looking for copies of computer games

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:10:04 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2303/ke01004.htm

that covers all the 2300 lists.
The first one mentioned is the main list with the most traffic
The others are low traffice spin offs.

TV
- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, January 07, 1999 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (again)


>Can someone give an exhaustive list of the traveller mailing lists
>(including 2300) that are running, along with points of contact?
>
>--Clif
>>Woo hoo!  I think you need to swing by the CT Resurgence eGroup and
>>fire up the non-conversant folks over there.
>>http://www.egroups.com/list/classic-traveller
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:05:14 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

>Clif wrote:
>>
>> Where do they [referring to starships, one of which engages Jump drive
within the hull of a starship already in Jumpspace] go?
>>
>I have encountered two theories about where they would end up.
>
>1.  They end up on a planet wholly dedicated to ball-point-pen
>lifeforms.
>
>2.  They find themselves buried in an infinite number of unmatched
>socks.
>
><<snip>>
>

Now THAT was funny sarcasm!

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 22:12:05 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion 

> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > Where do they go?
> > 
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > 
> > Oz. To E by way of C squared. To a millisecond before the Big Bang.
> > To Philadelphia. GM's choice, I suppose. <G>
> > 
> They may find themselves in Scotland.  >;-)

They go to a magical mystical place where impossible wonders are reality.  Such as, a balanced budget, honest politicians, lawyers who practice for the sake of law, and women aren't 30% plastic implants.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 22:31:39 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

At 21:10 7-1-99 -0500, Clif wrote:
>Where do they go?  
>
>--Clif
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Walter G. Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu>
>To: 'traveller@mpgn.com' <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>Date: Thursday, January 07, 1999 2:05 PM
>Subject: re: jumpspace recursion
>
>
>>Erwin Fritz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>Here's food for thought:
>>
>>Let's say ship A is being carried in ship B. Ship B jumps into hyperspace.
>>Sometime during the week, ship A executes a jump.
>>
>>What happens?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>IIRC, ship A is never seen again.
>>
>>Further, if ship A has two seperate jump drives installed, performs a
>>jump, and sometime during the week fires up the second jump drive,
>>it is also never seen again.

They arrive in Queens, in the middle of the night, and are completely
disassembled within fifteen minutes of their appearance.

8)


James

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:34:03 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Surveillance

>>IR missiles tended to be short ranged more because of primitive detectors
>>(mechanically-scanned single-element detectors) than anything fundamental.

>Even the most modern air-air missiles follow this sequence - the IRIS-T;
>AIM-9X and ASRAAM are all short range, IR homing missiles (with far from
>primitive seekers - ASRAAM can be told to choose what part of the target
>it hits); while AMRAAM, the improved AMRAAM and Meteor are all active
>radar medium range missiles.

Short-range is a relative term. I don't know about ASRAAM, and AIM-9X doesn't
technically exist yet, but people are talking about IR missiles with 20-mile
rear-aspect ranges, which is close to medium-generation AIM-7 sparrows...
and the new-generation french missiles (whose name escapes me), I believe, will
have an IR seeker for its medium range version. They won't replace radar for very
long (80 mile+) ranges, but are pretty respectable for medium (20-40 mile) ranges.
Past that, range is limited by atmospheric absorbtion among other things...but only
because you're looking through a *lot* of air - much more than looking up or down 
from a satellite.

>>A $60,000 commercial IR camera (about the size of a bulky camcorder) can
>>see commercial jet aircraft at 20 - 40 miles with no special image processing
>>or optimization (I've done the test myself.)
>Sure, you can see an aircraft-sized target. Now look at the example in
>question - resolving human sized targets; engine blocks on vehicles; and
>even a cigarette from space? Even assuming a low-earth orbit satellite
>(bringing with it narrow field of view and short view times for any
>particular target), you are looking at 100 miles up.
I certainly wasn't making those claims. Resolution will be limited by diffraction,
though, not by atmospheric effects, which is what the post I was responding to
was claiming. (Diffraction is worse for IR than visible, so resolution even from
low orbit - which is where the imaging satellites are - will probably be a 
couple of meters.) Whether IR imaging from orbit could see a human with that
I can't say. Probably an engine (not seeing details, but telling that the source
is there), probably not a cigarette. 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:29:39 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion 

Oh, that must be the parallel universe to my mystical place where beautiful
women put out because they are feeling charitable.  ;)

- --Clif

>They go to a magical mystical place where impossible wonders are reality.
Such as, a balanced budget, honest politicians, lawyers who practice for the
sake of law, and women aren't 30% plastic implants.
>
>Keven
>
>tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---
>                                                     Science-Fiction
Adventure
>                                                     In Reavers' Deep
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:36:15 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

In a message dated 1/7/99 7:38:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, wombat@premier.net
writes:

<<   There is also a new factor in the mix as well, computer games.   When RPG's
 > are compared to computer games, they seem rather tame (especially a nice,
 > nearly stodgy game like Traveller).
 > 
 Until the players realize that, while computer games have AIs that limit
 their actions, RPGs have far fewer constraints.  (At least, I know that
 _I_ have been frustrated by computer games that wouldn't let me try what
 I wanted to try.  I'm always willing to accept that I may fail, but
 dammit, let me _try_!)
  >>
	I just wanted to clarifiy my post a bit.   I find FtF games much more
satisfying than any computer game, by far.   What I meant when I said "tame"
and "stodgy" was not in excitement sense but rather in the "moral" sense.   In
other words I think that parents might find RPG's much less "dangerous" or
"offensive" when compared to computer and video games with graffic depictions
of guts blowing up all around.  I just don't see that there would be as much
of a reaction to RPG's in the present "graffic" environment.   
			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:40:55 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Man-Kzin war

>The Man-Kzin
>books are very conspiracy theory heavy.  The secret masters are try to keep
>the lid on entirely to many boiling pots.  It's a good series.

Tastes vary; I didn
care for it too much. Allt he conspiracy stuff seems to undermine
Niven's early work quite a bit - you have to either assume that smart,
powerful people like Lucas Garner are (a) evil conspirators, or (b) really
really stupid dupes, neither of which I like much. I've never been
a big conspiracy fan. Also the (early) books I read suffer from 
everyone stumbling across Thrint/Tnuctipun prevered in stasis from
billions of years ago - kind of like people in Traveller always stumble across
ancients, I suppose - very overused. And too much of the inate superiority of
humans to stupid aliens...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:52:07 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Surveillance

>>[satellite imagery in the book Patriot Games]

>I'm sure that the representation was a bit more outdated than what is
>actually available to the right people.  Further, the book and the movie are
>a bit old, now.
The satellites haven't gotten any bigger, and resolution is limited by mirror
size; it's hard to fit anything bigger than 4 meters into a Titan payload shroud.
So the ability of satellites to see fine detail is unlikely to have changed.
(At least the professional satellite watchers - AvLeak and the FAS -
think so.)

I have no professional knowledge but I understand the physics involved.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 22:51:14 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics 

> 
> >Clif, one of the first lessons at the Infantry School is that standing out
> >is bad.  I was a sniper.
> 
> Okay, now take a pack of snipers who howl from the shadows and then quickly
> descend with grav belts upon a village of weak, unarmed enemy sympathizers.
> That's the vargr strategy I'm describing.

Serious misuse of snipers.  If you're gonna drop anybody into a 'ville, you'll 
drop regular combat riflemen.

> > On the ground, I use that
> >howl to warn everyone that the Vargr attack is imminent.  Hint from an
> >11B1V:  announcing you are about to attack is generally a bad thing.  The
> >NK/Chinese found this out in 1951, when American soldiers and Marines would
> >be alerted by the whistles and trumpets used to coordinate activities in
> >the radioless PLA.  Yes, they had nightmares about those trumpets, but they
> >were home,e alive to have those dreams.
> 
> Fine, but a surprise attack scenario I am describing hand-in-hand with the
> quick convergence upon the weak target in an overwhelming pack (escorted by
> volleys of armament, of course) would be benefited by an unsettling howl.

You still don't want *snipers* to do this.  You'd use regular line troops.

> >But that's not what they were designed for.  Which is what you seem to be
> >arguing.  Artillery is scary when it's hitting you.  On the other ridge,
> >it's piss-poor fireworks.  On the enemy's ridge, it's a spectator sport.
> 
> Even handgrenades have a very haunting whump sound when detonating off in
> the distance.

So what?  If they're not going off in my face, they're not my problem at the 
moment, they're *somebody else's*.  The only time I worry about grenades is 
when somebody's throwing them at me.  At somebody else, well, tough luck, 
Charley, but that's the way it goes...

<rest of post deleted for space and relevancy>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:57:47 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Man-Kzin war

How about the Pak?

3I vs the Pak? 
hehe

tv

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:03:13 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"
- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, January 07, 1999 8:31 PM
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics


>
>By WHAT plasma weapons?  Any SMART ship would run from the pack and leave
>the weak target alone to be victimized.  The victim might get off some
>shots, but would be overwhelmed by the pack of "ravening wolves."  Maybe
you
>should go back and read the original post, again.


I didn't really need to go back and read it again. I remembered it
specifically. However, I'll gladly repost an excerpt from your original
post:

'You could hear them "a mile away" and could pick some of them off, but
they'd get their "food" for the day.'

Those are your words, not mine. I call your attention to the part where you
said 'you... could pick some of them off"

>...and they could USE the technology for those others uses, but it would be
>preceded by a howl.


But why then even bother with the howl? Just because they're descended from
dogs?

>You're talking about a RPG, "dude"!  Since when are you LOCKED IN to the
>"current" date?  The T4 book actually brags that you can run a campaign from
>anywhere way, way back to a time that is "up-to-the-minute."  Geez, and some
>of you call ME close-minded!  You're the kind of person that probably thinks
>artists should stick to "convention", eh?


I'm not even going to bother with this...

>I DIDN'T outline a "howl and run" tactic, my reading
>comprehensionally-challenged acquaintance.  The ones who ran were the OPFOR
>of JRTC in Arkansas, and I was describing their methods to show that even
>"SENTIENT" beings howl when they engage in warfare.  How much more would
>semi-canines?(or whatever they are...)


Would you like me to quote the entirety of your original post on the
subject? Y'know, the one I quoted from towards the beginning of this
message? The one in which you ascribe moronic tactics to Vargr based on the
fact that they're descended from dogs? I wasn't even referring to your post
about the real world soldiers.

On the other hand, I see you've reduced yourself to personal insults. I have
responded to your messages politely. I have not insulted you, or harassed
you. Even though you caused problems on the list with other folks, I wasn't
being an asshole to you.

I'm going to ask you politely:Would you kindly deal with me with the same
respect that I have given you? In other words, don't be a dick to me. If you
have a problem with my request, then don't expect me to acknowledge your
existence in the future.

>No one said that they had to stand off at a "pot shot" distance with targets
>on their chests when they "howled".  Besides, making a speaker out of the
>ship may give them the time they need to close the distance.


Look, you are flipping back and forth between ground combat and space
combat. Settle with one or the other for now. If you want to talk about
space combat, say you're talking about space combat. If you want to talk
about ground combat, say you're talking about ground combat. Most of the
examples you've given have pertained to ground combat.

I don't have the time or inclination to discuss this with you if you're
going to flip flop whenever you feel it suits you.

>They wouldn't be the only ones whose forces would be dwindling.  And who is
>to say that the Vargr would not wait to "howl" until a preemptive strike
had
>been made?  You, I guess.


Alright. I refer you to your own quote towards the top of this message. You
are the one who said it, not me.

>But the booms have secondary effects, nevertheless, which was my point.
>(You think I don't know that artillery is used to blow shit up?)


I had pointed out how "chest-thumping" to avert combat were remnants of the
behavior of our ancestors.

Your response was that artillery and tank fire served the same purpose.

I then pointed out that artillery and tank fire has a specific reason on the
battlefield, in that it directly destroys enemy resources...

>Sure, but I had said that military units tend to have SOP's, standard
>operating procedures...  Even the Army TODAY, modern as it is, has some
>damned silly rituals.  Have you ever seen an "ADJUTANT'S CALL"?  I couldn't
>even wring the story behind it out of either of my S-1's when I was in the
>Army.


Silly rituals and behavior that gets you wiped out on the battlefield are
two _totally_ different things. You can't mix apples and oranges.

>>No. Kafer did not act like roaches. Not one bit. They acted like creatures
>>with a low degree of sentient intelligence.
>
>So you are saying that roaches have a high degree of sentient intelligence?
>That would explain your definition of "sentient", I guess.


You rudely accuse me of not reading your post (which I did), and then you
just ignore segments of my post at whim.

Please scan up a few lines and read the part where I said, clearly, "No
Kafer did not act like roaches, not one bit. They acted like creatures with
a low degree of sentient intelligence."

Now, how that would imply that I was saying that roaches were sentient is
anybody's guess. I was saying that Kafer were sentient.

>HEAVY DUTY equipment would be a better description.  I don't think a thud
>gun that could do massive damage but dislocate your shoulder when you fired
>it qualifies as "nifty."


Which thud gun are you talking about? A book reference, or page reference
would be really handy. In fact, after a cursory scan at the "Director's
Guide" and "Kafer Dawn" I have found no references to Kafer dislocating
their own shoulders. In fact, I see a line ("Kafer Dawn" p. 27) that says
"Kafer technology appears to be, on the whole, more advanced than that of
humans."

Further, I see plenty of nifty gadgets listed. In the "Director's Guide" we
have a large ship, a fighter craft, and a stutterwarp missile. In "Kafer
Dawn" I see a revolver, an assault rifle, a laser rifle, a vehicle mounted
plasma gun, a remote anti-vehicle missile system and several vehicles.

On the whole, I'd say they must be pretty damn smart in the wild.

>As for the refresher, I wish you'd tell me something that I DON'T know.
Can
>you not see that I must have known all of this when I said what I said
about
>the Kafer?  Can you not see that I qualified my statements with a
>parenthetical disclaimer?  No, you've proven that you can't see.


If you knew all this, you'd probably not say that they acted like roaches. I
was merely informing you that you were underestimating what the Kafers
_could_ do when they weren't in danger.

>So by your previous statement, are you saying that the palmetto bugs here
in
>Florida are getting ready for a highly technological invasion?


Not at all. Perhaps you should do what you accuse others of not doing and
actually read the post you're responding to.

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:11:10 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Vargrs and psychological warfare

All this about howling and psyching out defenseless targets...

If the target is defenseless and your plan is to overwhelm it, why bother
psyching it out? Vargr go to war for Charisma, for self-preservation, for profit, 
out of anger, even for principles, but they don't seem to have a racial 
tendency to go to war for entertainment purposes.

Economy of force. While you focus an overwhelming amount of your
forces on an easily-destroyed and helpless target, those forces of yours 
are unavailable to counter moves by less-than-helpless enemy forces.
A unit wasted by inefficient deployment is almost as useless as a unit
thatstays home and watches "Packmates VII: Heat of the Night" on holovid
(the pay-per-view channels, you know).

Perhaps you gain a morale advantage by slaughtering an exposed
enemy unit (or group of enemy civilians) with your mobile force.
Perhaps your enemy gets a morale advantage as all his drop marines
start taking up Vargr hunting as a personal hobby. Regardless, the time
you spent butchering something of his that was harmless your enemy 
probably spent butchering something of yours that was useful.

Of course, if Vargr attacked this way, there will always be the
minimally clued-in enemy commander who will provide a perfect
target for such a raid. 

"Force leader! A human mobile hospital convoy has fallen out of position!
We are overrunning them right now...." <static as the fusion bomb in one
of the fake remote-piloted "hospital trucks" detonates...>

Add the Vargr racial pride. If my reading of Vargr source material is
accurate, frightening or otherwise "gaining Charisma" over a human or other
non-Vargr  would be considered pointless - a Vargr who bothered with such 
games would probably suffer a loss of vital Charisma, as he obviously is 
scaring humans because he's too much of a wimp to scare another Vargr.

As for Cliff's idea for a howl-sound-inducing ray gun - Cliff, are you now
suggesting that the ability to create a "howl" is a minor ability of a more
complex weapon, much as firing starshell flares is a minor ability
of a US Navy Ticonderoga-class Cruiser? A weapon that can make
hull plates of a tank or starship resonate in piercing howls needs
capabilities just to pull off that stunt that would give it some very
magical...er, "sufficiently advanced technology" capabilities.

Vargr may have Psychological Warfare units. As Vargr are scientifically
capable sentient beings, I believe their Psychological Warfare techniques 
will be oriented towards what their enemies are vulnerable to, rather than 
how Terran canines may have behaved thousands of years ago.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 23:11:22 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Man-Kzin war 

> How about the Pak?
> 
> 3I vs the Pak? 

3I wins it hands down.  Not only does their technology overwhelm the Pak 
Protectors, but also the Protectors are extremely predictable.  As Brennan 
said, there's very little free will in a Protector.  They'll figure out the 
best possible tactic every time and use it.  All you have to do is figure out 
what it'll be and sucker them into it, then clobber them.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:15:52 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

> Here's food for thought:
> 
> Let's say ship A is being carried in ship B. Ship B jumps into hyperspace.
> Sometime during the week, ship A executes a jump.
> 
> What happens?

If you are the GM ... anything you want.  

I tried this once and it got out of hand (I let them go twice the 
distance in the same amount of time).  Should have known better.  If 
the players ever try it again, they are going to meet the God of the 
Disciples of the Bright Way ...


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:29:41 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

Dave Nelson said:

> I just wanted to clarifiy my post a bit.   I find FtF games much more
>satisfying than any computer game, by far.   What I meant when I said "tame"
>and "stodgy" was not in excitement sense but rather in the "moral" sense. In
>other words I think that parents might find RPG's much less "dangerous" or
>"offensive" when compared to computer and video games with graffic depictions
>of guts blowing up all around.  I just don't see that there would be as much
>of a reaction to RPG's in the present "graffic" environment.


There are a couple of points I'd like to respond to here:

First of all, every kid plays video games. Well, nearly every kid plays
video games. When parents see their kids playing video games, it's not so
bad. The opponents of violence in video games have not done a very good job
of getting any sort of decent lobby going, so it's not to abnormal. Video
games are a hot commodity. There's tons of books floating around on the
history of video games, the relevance of video games in society, etc...  I'm
not sure if it's the violence in video games that bothers most parents, but
how much time their kids spend playing video games when they should be doing
homework.

Roleplaying games are another story entirely! Parents may see their kid with
a roleplaying game and wonder what they're up to. After all, the kid sits in
his room for hours rolling up subsectors and animal encounter tables. What's
he _really_ up to? Then they half-remember the seminal (and atrocious) Tom
Hanks made for TV movie "Mazes & Monsters," which was about the dangers of
roleplaying... Then they remember how roleplaying games were "suspected" as
the "cause" for several teen suicides throughout the 80s. Hell, if they're
from the Philadelphia area (like me) they may even remember how roleplaying
games supposedly had something to do with a highly publicized rape and
double murder.

What, do you think most parents pay attention to what it is that their kids
are doing, exactly? If they already think that "Dungeons and Dragons" is
bad, then Traveller will be just as bad.

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 22:54:51 -0700
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Fwd: Looking for copies of computer games

Am seriously behind in reading my email - just came across this. I find it
disturbing that someone in the Traveller-CD project would be involved in
releasing pirated Trav. software - especially since there are still used
copies of these games floating around out there.

L8r,
Paul Sanders

>Reply-To: <xgr52@dial.pipex.com>
>From: "Nicholas Wright" <xgr52@dial.pipex.com>
>To: <dmckinne@itds.com>, <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
>Cc: <timmon@primenet.com>
>Subject: Looking for copies of computer games
>Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 22:08:21 -0000
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162
>
>Dear All,
>
>I have the MT 1 and MT 2 zipped and ready to go if you want.  The game is
>2MB zipped but the pdf manual is 11MB but it is in several languages (but
>not Farsi)
>
>This is very secret so please keep it off the list. If the Templars hear
>we've got this they'll be all over us with the nit comb.
>
>Nick Wright
>Trav CD project
>
>
>
>>Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:53:48 -0700
>>From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
>>Subject: Re: Looking for copies of computer games
>>
>>At 01:13 PM 11/26/98 +0000, you wrote:
>>>On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Don McKinney wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm looking for copies of MT1: The Zhodani Conspiracy and MT2: Quest
>for
>>>> the Ancients, for the IBM PC.  Anyone who is willing to part with one,
>>>> please e-mail me.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> DonM.
>>>
>>>If anyone has another copy of MT2: Quest for the Ancients, I would be
>>>interested too. Maybe if anyone across the pond had one and they wanted to
>>>do a deal for maybe BITS products, we could work something out ?
>>>
>>>Here's hoping
>
>I saw two copies of MT2 in a local used-software store yesterday. They were
>asking $22 each (kinda steep I think). If either of you are interested, let
>me know and I could pick them up next Monday.
>
>L8r,
>Paul
> 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1380
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, January 8 1999      Volume 1998 : Number 1381



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: jumpspace recursion
Cross Culture
Re: Looking for copies of computer games
Re: jumpspace recursion (not short)
Re: V & A Tactics (XXX S-word Used!!)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1373
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: jumpspace recursion 
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: jumpspace recursion
Subject: Re: Man-Kzin war
Vargr, in combat.
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: StarCruiser
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: Stratfor Global Intelligence report for 1999(SPAM)
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Subject: Re: Man-Kzin war
testing please ignore

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 01:17:57 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

> > You're already in jumpspace, so whatever the lanthanum gird and jumpdrive
> > does when it starts up in normal space won't work.  I'm not jump engineer,
> > but it seems to me that jump drives 'warp' normal space/time.  They're
> > designed to warp normal space into jumpspace.
>
> That would be contrary to the canonical treatment that jumpspace is a set of
> alternate dimensions that don't normally apply (in a known way) to the normal
> universe.

Hmm.  Several have said there is no canon on this.

>   See the Imperial Encyclopedia and the article on Jumpspace by one
> Marc Miller (on Kagehira's AAB) or the SOM for a more in-depth theory.

Got any URLs for those?

Bloo

P.S.  This whole discussion reminds me of the AD&D trick where if you put a
portable hole inside a bag of holding, chances were you'd get sucked into a layer
of the Abyss.  At least in first edition rules.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 01:11:26 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Cross Culture

I have a cultural question for the Australians on the TML.

A friend of mine travelled from the USA to Australia (Sydney area
I believe) some years ago, and one thing that struck her was how
the average Australian response to any request seemed to be "No."

For example, she went into a bank and asked the teller, "Can you
give me change for a dollar?"
Teller: "No."
Her: "No? But I have the dollar right here!"
Teller: "Well, maybe."
Her: "This is a bank, isn't it?"
Teller: "Well, OK..."

She had a few more examples...the pattern she seemed to see was
that the intial answer to a request would always be "No", the second
answer would be "Maybe", and the third (or so) answer (to a reasonable
request) would be "Yes". 

I'd imagine there would be impatient or meek people who would give up
and go elsewhere on the first "No".

Is this kind of response common in Australian culture, or was she getting
some kind of different treatment because she was a tourist/outsider?

ObTrav: Thinking about all the little vagaries between how people do things 
from planet to planet, and the misunderstandings this can lead to.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 01:09:09 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for copies of computer games

Sanders said:

>Am seriously behind in reading my email - just came across this. I find it
>disturbing that someone in the Traveller-CD project would be involved in
>releasing pirated Trav. software - especially since there are still used
>copies of these games floating around out there.


Where? I'd love to get my hands on a legit copy of MT1 (actually, I do have
a legit copy of MT2, however the disks are dead. Oh great, I still do have
the manuals, though!).

It's a shame that these games are so long out of print and so difficult to
find.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 01:23:00 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion (not short)

Ok.  Douglas wins.

Just say no to jumping inside a ship in jump.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 01:24:49 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: V & A Tactics (XXX S-word Used!!)

dberry@hooked.net wrote:

> >Which is why when grenades are being chucked on the guy gets on the radio he
> >says, "We're in a world of shit," "...the shit is coming down," or "we're in
> >shit-storm."
>
> no, that's a function of language.  Modern English to be exact, coming from
> a cultural backround that places extreme distaste in any subject regarding
> bodily wastes.

I thought it was in reference to the common reaction in a life threatening
crisis of filling  the pants.  But I'll buy Doug's explanation.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 01:25:26 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1373

dberry@hooked.net wrote:

> At 11:36 PM 1/6/99 EST, someone who is best not spoken of wrote:
>
> >hey,   what happened to #1371?
>
> There is no 1371.  Move along.  Do not discuss this.  All that is important
> is that we were never here, this never happened, and 1371 never existed,
> right?
>
> Please look into the little red light...
> --

</Fnord>

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 01:26:16 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

Clif wrote:

> Where do they go?

To the Comfy Chair!

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 01:28:36 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

"Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:

> They go to a magical mystical place where impossible wonders are reality.  Such as, a balanced budget, honest politicians, lawyers who practice for the sake of law,

Hey, now!  Don't lump us lawyers in with politicians.  They're strictly junior varisty.
Lawyer jokes must be distinct from all others and cannot be causaly grouped with others.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:26:25 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

> From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
> Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion
> 
> > Oz. To E by way of C squared. To a millisecond before the Big Bang.
> > To Philadelphia. GM's choice, I suppose. <G>
> They may find themselves in Scotland.  >;-)

Anything, but Scotland...  Anything but that...  *weg*

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:25:26 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

> From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
> Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

> > Where do they [referring to starships, one of which engages Jump drive
within the hull of a starship already in Jumpspace] go?
> I have encountered two theories about where they would end up.

I do wonder where...

> 1.  They end up on a planet wholly dedicated to ball-point-pen
> lifeforms.

Uh huh?  And once there do we enslave said lifeforms & sell them to the
highest bidder?

> 2.  They find themselves buried in an infinite number of unmatched
> socks.

OK...

<LL watches as Black ICE grows a second head...>

Look its Zaphod Beatlebox....  *weg*

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:28:12 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

> From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion
> 
> >> Where do they [referring to starships, one of which engages Jump drive
> within the hull of a starship already in Jumpspace] go?
> >I have encountered two theories about where they would end up.
> >1.  They end up on a planet wholly dedicated to ball-point-pen
> >lifeforms.
> >2.  They find themselves buried in an infinite number of unmatched
> >socks.
> Now THAT was funny sarcasm!

Can I please tell Clif where those theories came from, please, can I... 
*weg*

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:31:13 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion 

> From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@glasscity.net>
> Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion 
> 
> > > Oz. To E by way of C squared. To a millisecond before the Big Bang.
> > > To Philadelphia. GM's choice, I suppose. <G>
> > > 
> > They may find themselves in Scotland.  >;-)
> 
> They go to a magical mystical place where impossible wonders are reality.
 Such as, a balanced budget, honest politicians, lawyers who practice for
the sake of law, and women aren't 30% plastic implants.

Don't tell me, they go to the Mid-West..

Legate Legion,  Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:48:47 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

> From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion
> 
> > Where do they go?
> To the Comfy Chair!

Not the Comfy Chair, Cardnial Fang...er... Cardnial Bloo...

> Bloo

Legate Legion, & Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:50:27 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

> From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion
> 
> > They go to a magical mystical place where impossible wonders are
reality.  Such as, a balanced budget, honest politicians, lawyers who
practice for the sake of law,
> 
> Hey, now!  Don't lump us lawyers in with politicians.  They're strictly
junior varisty.
> Lawyer jokes must be distinct from all others and cannot be causaly
grouped with others.

Nor would we want to spend time with lawyers & politicians...  But, it
seems as if the politician is a sub-branch of the lawyer family tree... 
*weg*

> Bloo

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 23:18:26 -0800
From: "James W. Brewer" <jwbrewer@ucsd.edu>
Subject: Subject: Re: Man-Kzin war

> How about the Pak?
> 
> 3I vs the Pak? 

The Pak would win the same way they won on Wonderland.  After infecting all
the high population worlds with tree of life virus the new Pak fleets would
simply overwhelm what's left of the Imperium.  Remember Brennan took over a
multimillion person colony by himself.

Jim Brewer

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:56:56 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Vargr, in combat.

It's difficult to make the aliens in our games sufficiently "alien" to make
them feel right, without going so far as to be silly, or making them
ineffectual. Taking a racial trait to extremes is not always the right
answer.

Certain threads about Vargr in combat seem to fit into this category. How
should we make a Vargr raid seem different from an attack by a squad of
human cut-throats, without taking it to a silly extreme?

Well, Vargr are pack animals  - I'm not going to be specific and say
"dogs" - whose ancenstors had reached a lower level of social spohistication
when they were transplanted than humans had. From canon we also know that
Vargr society is turbulent and fluid, characterised by struggles for power
and charisma.

It seems to me that while vargr are more than smart enough to realise that
acting like a mob on the battlefield is ineffective (and lethal), you might
get the situation where some idiot decides he wants all the charisma for an
attack, and hey, this target looks weak enough to take without sticking to
the tame and safe plan.... so somebody might go off at half-cock and attack
early. Occasionally. At other times a position might fall apart because
somebody thought that there was less charisma lost in abandoning a hopeless
position than in getting pounded.

But this'd be quite rare. vargr can fight, and fight well. They can use
technology to give them an advantage. Perhaps their organisation might be a
bit feudal in nature, with, say,  the support gunners all being the personal
following of whomever has the most charisma among them, but nobody is going
to challenge for leadrship in the middle of a firefight (well, not usally.
But then stupidity is not an exclusively human trait).

We know from canon that Vargr favour the raid. I also infer that their pack
metality would mean that their small units would be very cohesive, and
loyalty to pack-mates would be an important factor. They would be very good
light infantry/rangers or assault troops. Vargr "special forces" might be
fun... but bigger organisations would tend to fray about the edges, unless
led by a very charismatic leader - who had better keep on winning to provide
evidence of his charisma (perhaps setting up a string of easy victories?) or
watch the whole thing start to come apart.

Knowing the effect that wild animal cries in the night have upon humans,
vargr might engage in psyops to unsettle their targets or to misdirect them.
They're certainly smart enough for that. But they would also know that
advertising that you're about to attack (this "howl" business) is not a
great idea.

I see vargr as thus being very good infantrymen, with squads fightng
tenacisouly but suffering breakdowns at the higher command levels. Sudden
attacks and pockets of stubborn resistance would characterise any action,
while high command struggled to keep everyone following the plan.
Glory-hunters might derail the plan completely, or might carry through an
attack which has gone horribly wrong, just on balls alone.

But however they do it, vargr will fight smart unless some other
consideration gets in the way.

There's a tendency (especially, I seem to recall among teenage gamers) to
write in stuff becasue it "sound cool", which upon examination doesn't work.
I refer to inverse laser microphones and stuff like that - a laser capable
of inducing vibrations (sound) in a metal structure would have to do so by
hitting it with a great many of those quantised engergy packets in order to
get the metal moving.

Sadly, this causes an effect called "heating" which is detrimental to the
metal. IE: This device would vapourise the target before making much useful
sound. An example of a "cool" device that doesn't survive reality. If we
want aliens to be plausibly alien they have to be believeable. Better to
focus on what they do and how they organise themselves to  do it than some
single trait and a few gadgets. "Vargr howl beofre an attack" does not make
them alien, it makes them one-dimsneional and a bit dumb. We need, I think,
to be more subtle: how are they different from human? How are they similar?

Bottom line is: everyone is influenced by the way everyone else does things.
Being killed is quite a strong influence, anfd Vargr like anyone else will
try to avoid that by a bit of common sense. I think that's called Evolution?

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 21:32:56 +1300
From: "Mike Smith" <mjsmith@salcom.co.nz>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

What?  You mean that doesn't work?  Damn, I've been misled for years!
:)

I figure that there are a bunch of alternate universes side-by-side, so you
can stick a bunch of bags of holding inside a bag of holding!  Kinda
tardis-like...

Then again, you have to *get* a bunch of bags of holding...  Hay Tiamat...
here dragon, nice dragon, lunch is here.

<Mikro>

*DM owns the game*

- -----Original Message-----
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion


>
>
>TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:
>
>> > You're already in jumpspace, so whatever the lanthanum gird and
jumpdrive
>> > does when it starts up in normal space won't work.  I'm not jump
engineer,
>> > but it seems to me that jump drives 'warp' normal space/time.  They're
>> > designed to warp normal space into jumpspace.
>>
>> That would be contrary to the canonical treatment that jumpspace is a set
of
>> alternate dimensions that don't normally apply (in a known way) to the
normal
>> universe.
>
>Hmm.  Several have said there is no canon on this.
>
>>   See the Imperial Encyclopedia and the article on Jumpspace by one
>> Marc Miller (on Kagehira's AAB) or the SOM for a more in-depth theory.
>
>Got any URLs for those?
>
>Bloo
>
>P.S.  This whole discussion reminds me of the AD&D trick where if you put a
>portable hole inside a bag of holding, chances were you'd get sucked into a
layer
>of the Abyss.  At least in first edition rules.
>
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 21:51:53 +1300
From: "Anson Betts" <AFBetts@salcom.co.nz>
Subject: Re: StarCruiser

>But the game I am talking about was a cockpit-view 3D combat simulation in
>space, via modem.  You had to pay so much an hour.  It was based upon
>StarCruiser or 2300AD...
>
>--Clif
Space combat in 2300 AD is at ranges where a cockpit view would show
nothing. According to the directors guide it use a map of hexes each 600 000
km in diameter. Ain't no point having a cockpit view at those sort of
ranges. I haven't seen star cruiser but I wouldn't expect it to be a
dogfight kind of system.

Cheers,
 Anson.

Oook Oook

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:08:30 +1300
From: "Anson Betts" <AFBetts@salcom.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

>Did you forget about the inverse laser microphone that transmits sound to a
>solid instead of reads it?
>
I thought sound was vibrations? I thought that lasers heated things up,
which does make the electrons speed up, but with a rapid enough change of
heat so the target expands and contracts thus moving the atmosphere so as to
produce audible sound? So the laser heats the area up ,what's cooling the
area down again? Wouldn't most solids shatter with such a rapid temperature
change?
These and many more questions remain to be answered, if you have a relevant
URL to look at please post it.

Cheers,
 Anson.

Oook Oook

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 03:03:38 +0000
From: "Tim" <tim@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Stratfor Global Intelligence report for 1999(SPAM)

> ...
> >Actually, there has been a certain amount of schmoozing going on between
> >Russia and China of late.  I think it's because they're both losers and
> >weren't invited to the party.  Anti-American here more or less means not
> >supporting bombing Iraq or Serbia, and not doing what the IMF says.
> 
>   I just get worried by stuff that looks roughly as useful as an embassy
> advisory (Spain good, backwoods of anywhere with an on-going insurgency
> Bad - what a surprise!). I really hope that they went into detail as to
> the fact that "Anti-American alliance" here really means that they're 
> both bitching through diplomatic channels about the US, but they'd both 
> much rather see the other lose relative power first.
> 
>   To a certain extent it may simply be that there's brownie points to be
> gained here at Anglo-American expense, and both of them expect to be net
> importers of petroleum products before too long, last I'd heard. There's
> also the fact that pandering to the Arab/Islamic (plus Iran, of course)
> audience may increase their influence in the former SSR's of central Asia.
> 

I was amazed to be looking over the list tonight to find these 
posting on Stratfor.  I am also very happy to see them and glade that 
you enjoy them.  Considering that I use to work for the company when 
they were in Baton Rouge and LSU and still do work for the Profesor 
who edits them I ll pass along the fact that I saw these post.

Please scrribe to the GUI serves at the companies website  
Internet: http://www.stratfor.com/

Thanks again



Tim Reynolds
tim@premier.net 
www.premier.net/~tim 
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable 
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for 
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.]

Terry Pratchett 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:24:17 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

In a message dated 1/7/99 11:19:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
felix@felixcafe.com writes:

<< > Here's food for thought:
 > 
 > Let's say ship A is being carried in ship B. Ship B jumps into hyperspace.
 > Sometime during the week, ship A executes a jump.
 > 
 > What happens?
 
 If you are the GM ... anything you want.  
 
 I tried this once and it got out of hand (I let them go twice the 
 distance in the same amount of time).  Should have known better.  If 
 the players ever try it again, they are going to meet the God of the 
 Disciples of the Bright Way ...
  >>

	How about this:    Jump drive doesn't work in a gravitational field.    The
inside of a ship has artificial gravity equal to 1-G, much more than
experienced at 100 diameters from a world surface.   Thus by using only canon
information we can conclude a Jump drive will not work inside of another ship
(in Jump space or not).
		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:27:53 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

In a message dated 1/7/99 11:40:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, semo@pil.net
writes:

<< 
 What, do you think most parents pay attention to what it is that their kids
 are doing, exactly? If they already think that "Dungeons and Dragons" is
 bad, then Traveller will be just as bad.
 
 Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net ) >>

	Ahh, but you assume that anyone remembers what happened 10 or more years ago,
the parents of teenagers now were not the same batch of folks.   We remeber
all that bad publicity crap because our collective ox got gored.
			Dave "Dr Stodgicus" Nelson
P.S.   of course the hobby was never in as good a shape as when the pubilicity
was at its worst.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:43:47 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Man-Kzin war

- ----------
> From: James W. Brewer <jwbrewer@ucsd.edu>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Subject: Re: Man-Kzin war
> Date: Thursday, 08 January, 1998 2:18 AM
> 
> 
> > How about the Pak?
> > 
> > 3I vs the Pak? 
> 
> The Pak would win the same way they won on Wonderland.  After infecting
all
> the high population worlds with tree of life virus the new Pak fleets
would
> simply overwhelm what's left of the Imperium.  Remember Brennan took over
a
> multimillion person colony by himself.

Just a little nit, Brennan wasn't Pak, he was a human protector.  He took
over "Home" (not Wunderland) in the process of trying to kill the Pak
colonization fleet.  That's the problem with the Pak using the technique
you suggest; human protectors will try to *kill* the Pak, lest they do the
same to humans, and the humans start with better technology.  I'm trying to
imagine what a protector could do with Traveller-style gravitics and meson
weapons.  It's not pretty.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 13:14:54 +0000
From: "E.D.Quibell" <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: testing please ignore

just a small test to see if this exchange server realy works.

Ewan

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1381
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in the commands above with "traveller".

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Traveller-digest      Friday, January 8 1999      Volume 1998 : Number 1382



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Looking for copies of computer games
PING
testing again please ignore
Re: Aslan _ihatei_
Re: jumpspace recursion
T4 Alien Archives:  Homeworlds?
Re: Stratfor Global Intelligence report for 1999
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: Vargr & Aslan (and Army and Marine) Tactics
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: Vargr, in combat.
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Surveillance
Re: jumpspace recursion 
Re jumspace recursion
Re: GT tech levels 
Re: Man-Kzin war
Re: StarCruiser
re: Vargrs and psychological warfare
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics 
Re: jumpspace recursion

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 06:24:40 -0700
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for copies of computer games

At 01:09 AM 1/8/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Sanders said:
>
>>Am seriously behind in reading my email - just came across this. I find it
>>disturbing that someone in the Traveller-CD project would be involved in
>>releasing pirated Trav. software - especially since there are still used
>>copies of these games floating around out there.
>
>
>Where? I'd love to get my hands on a legit copy of MT1 (actually, I do have
>a legit copy of MT2, however the disks are dead. Oh great, I still do have
>the manuals, though!).
>
>It's a shame that these games are so long out of print and so difficult to
>find.

Used software stores - I come across copies all the time, usually in the
$10-20 dollar range.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 05:26:51 PST
From: "Freelance Traveller" <freetrav@hotmail.com>
Subject: PING

Attn: Christopher Griffen and Rob Prior

Please contact me at either the Freelance Traveller address 
(freetrav@hotmail.com) or my regular address (jzeitlin@cyburban.com).  
Freelance Traveller has some possible business with you.

- -- 
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller
freetrav@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 13:31:02 +0000
From: "E.D.Quibell" <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: testing again please ignore

The exchange server isn't working

Ewan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:13:31 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Aslan _ihatei_

Blair Lynch-Blosse writes:

>Thanks for the reply, I'm currently interested in the Aslan Ihatei Fleets
>and the Imperial responce toward them following the assassination of the
>emperor in 1116. My take on all this was that the Imperium was distracted
>by the assassination, internal rioting and poor planning (with a little bit
>of bad luck thrown in for good measure) thus allowing the Aslan fleets to
>capture 20 systems (as per MT Rebellion Sourcebook p.60) during 1118 and a
>further 10 or so in 1119.
> 
>Also, one of the keys to this has been the _Blitzkrieg_(?) approach adopted
>by the Aslan. I've assumed that the previous Aslan Ihatei fleets have been
>small (2-3 hugh people movers with half a dozen or so escorts) and once
>they found a suitable system (occupied or not) they would settle and stop
>advancing. I've formulated an Imperial responce to this and it has worked
>in the past (a history created by me, so it's going to work :). The actions
>following the assassination by the Aslan were more forceful and involved
>hugh battle fleets to force the Imperial forces backward and exposing their
>boarder worlds to colinisation. These fleets would continue to advance,
>attacking key worlds and forcing the Imperial forces backward.
 
Personally I consider this very, very unlikely. Yes, Aslan clan lords _might_
send off huge battle fleets to support their _ihatei_, but I think it is
completely contrary to their main interests. However, I had a long discussion
with someone else about this a few months ago and was unable to convince him
one little bit (and vice versa, of course), so I'll try another tack this time.

First read this quote from _Alien Module 1:Aslan_, p. 4:

"A deep-seated territorial instinct causes male Aslan to have an inordinate
(from the human point of view) concern for the aquisition and control of
land. The ownership of land is a major goal in the lives of most Aslan
males."

Now imagine that you are an Aslan clan lord, and consider what priority you
would place on the following concerns:

        Retaining control of your present holdings.

        Investing in expanding the size and strength of your own
        holdings.

        Adding neighboring planets and systems to your holdings.

        Taking over control of planets and systems so far from your
        core holdings that the forces raised there would have
        difficulty supporting you.

        Settling _ihatei_ close enough to your holdings for you to
        retain direct control of them.

        Outfitting _ihatei_ expeditions that will travel scores of
        parsecs away from your holdings and settle down there.

Once you've decided on your priorities and once you realize that all your
fellow neighboring clan lords propably have similar priorities (those of you
who know the game DIPLOMACY will realize what I'm getting at), decide how
big a percentage of your yearly budget you'd want to spend on outfitting
_ihatei_ expeditions. Then decide how big a slice of your regular clan forces
you'd be willing to send away for several years to escort your _ihatei_.

Now, once you have an idea of how many _ihatei_ fleets you can expect the
Aslan Hierate to produce, put yourself in the place of an _ihatei_ admiral.
First have a look at the map and decide how close you'd have to be to the
Great Rift crossing to prefer going across it to travelling to the other
borders (Hint: It takes a typical jump-3 _ihatei_ fleet a full year to cross
the Great Rift).

One figure we unfortunately don't have is the size of a typical _ihatei_
fleet. We do know that one typical _Ihatei_ squadron had two 10,000 T
cruisers and two 50,000 T transports (and two scouts), but we don't know
how many squadrons to a fleet. So work out how many squadrons you think a
typical _ihatei_ fleet would have and consider your fighting assets:

For each squadron you have two small obsolescent cruisers (Imperial cruisers
and battleriders range from 20,000 to 75,000 T) of a TL 3 levels lower than
Imperial standard and 2 levels lower than Imperial colonial standard. You
also have two transports each carrying 10,000 people in low berths. Since
these are complete immigrant families, only 20-30% of them would be males.
How big a percentage of those would be warriors is up to you. Possibly all
of them.

Once you have an idea of how strong you are, have a look at the map of the
Trojan Reach and decide where you'd have the best chance of establishing a
lasting settlement with the best chance of long-term survival. Keep in mind
that the _average_ expenditure of Imperial planets on system defenses (army
and COACC included) is 2% of GWP and decide how likely it is that systems
that have spent the last 500 years across a 10 parsec neutral zone from your
typical Aslans would be among those spending less than the average.

Since I know from previous dicussions that not everybody consider the notion
that a major world like Tobia would spend practically nothing on system
defenses, relying almost completely on Imperial forces for their defense
completely ridiculous, you might also want to ponder how many warriors it
would take to conquer and control a TL 15 world with 20 billion people and a
law level of 5, even assuming they have no other system defenses than their
police forces and whatever freedom fighters would spontaneously arise if it
was invaded by Aslans.

Of course, you can always team up with other _Ihatei_ fleets. Before you do
that, you may want to consider your own ambitions and those of your fellow
admirals and decide how far you want to trust them.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 07:14:34 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

Black ICE wrote:
> 
> Clif wrote:
> >
> > Where do they [referring to starships, one of which engages Jump drive within the hull of a starship already in Jumpspace] go?
> >
> I have encountered two theories about where they would end up.
> 
> 1.  They end up on a planet wholly dedicated to ball-point-pen
> lifeforms.
> 
> 2.  They find themselves buried in an infinite number of unmatched
> socks.
> 
> <<snip>>

Ahh...I begin to see...This test starship, it's in the shape of a golden
running shoe, is it? ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:55:26 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: T4 Alien Archives:  Homeworlds?

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I have a question for the TML that may have already been answered 
some time before I joined the list.  (If it has been answered 
already, then I apologize for bringing it back up again.  I'm just 
on a quest for info.)

Have the minor races from T4: Alien Archives been assigned official 
homeworlds within the OTU?

If so, what are they?

If not, does anyone have any suggestions IYTU?

Thanks for your time.

Jason
============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer I
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:22:08 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stratfor Global Intelligence report for 1999

In a message dated 1/7/99 10:58:32 AM Pacific Standard Time, Matt-
C@aetherem.demon.co.uk writes:

<< ObTraveller: Are the Imperial intelligence organisations similar to the
 US model - i.e. multiple agencies, each with it's own agenda and varying
 amount of paranoia,
  >>

Oh yes! I can think of several off of the top of my head: IMOJ, INI, IISS
security, IRIS, etc.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 08:29:52 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

>Roger Barr wrote:
>
>> IMTU, I'd warn the intrepid astrogator that this move has never been
>> recorded in the 1k+ years of Imperial Interstellar Exploration 
History.
>
>I think I'll use it as a left-handed monkey wrench that grizzled old
>engineers
>send novices off for.
>
>"Spacehand Jones.  Get in the jump shuttle, fire up the jump drive and 
jump
>back to Regina.  Get my left handed monkey wrench from my desk at the
>Naval base, and then jump back here.  I forgot to grab it before we
>entered jump space.  And don't let me catch you without that wrench!
>Now, git!"
>
>Bloo
>
>

Bloo:
Good call. 
I will be using that at some point soon...
;)
Roger Barr
rogerbarr@hotmail.com

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:54:13 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

In a message dated 1/7/99 5:26:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, brclif@digital.net
writes:

<<   Have you ever seen an "ADJUTANT'S CALL"?  I couldn't
 even wring the story behind it out of either of my S-1's when I was in the
 Army. >>

That goes back to at LEAST the American Civil War. I know; I was a re-enactor,
and I still know how to beat Adjutant's Call on the drum. As many of our
military traditions and rituals were copied from the British; you can say they
go back even farther....

Ob Trav: Cutlass; need I say more... (no flames on anti-powered armor melee
weapons please...)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:56:05 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan (and Army and Marine) Tactics

Doug Berry said:
>Yet I have never been ordered to wave my arms over my head to make myself
>look bigger, howl at the top of my lungs, and hurl feces to gain an
>appointment to PLDS.

Of course you didn't, Doug; you were in the Army.  That would be MARINE
behavior...
Steve Charlton

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:00:14 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

In a message dated 1/7/99 6:24:57 PM Pacific Standard Time, dberry@hooked.net
writes:

<< 
 Screaming and taunting your foes is great when they can't hit you.  The
 *only* modern force that makes use of such an effect is the Highlander
 Regiments, who still bring pipers to the field. >>

You're kidding me! I thought the pipes were relegated to the drill field like
officer's sidearms, dress uniforms, and flags... Are the pipes camoed...:-) ?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 08:39:05
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Vargr, in combat.

At 07:56 AM 1/8/99 -0000, you wrote:

>Certain threads about Vargr in combat seem to fit into this category. How
>should we make a Vargr raid seem different from an attack by a squad of
>human cut-throats, without taking it to a silly extreme?

In ACQ, the morale of Vargr NPCs is heavily affected by the ststus of their
leader.  If the leader goes beserk, they go beserk.  If the leader breaks
or is killed, the Vargr under him tend to crumble.

- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:14:00 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

In a message dated 1/7/99 7:38:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, AveNelso@aol.com
writes:

<< I just wanted to clarifiy my post a bit.   I find FtF games much more
 satisfying than any computer game, by far.   What I meant when I said "tame"
 and "stodgy" was not in excitement sense but rather in the "moral" sense.
In
 other words I think that parents might find RPG's much less "dangerous" or
 "offensive" when compared to computer and video games with graffic depictions
 of guts blowing up all around.  I just don't see that there would be as much
 of a reaction to RPG's in the present "graffic" environment.   
 			Dave Nelson >>

The reason I prefer FtF gaming over the computer is two fold. The first is
that AI sucks (IMO). Second, and more important to me; is the social aspects.
I prefer to be surrounded by a table of friends and aquaintances and
interacting with them, then to stare at a computer tube, and type away. I
would even prefer to talk to the TML face to face or at least on a telephone,
but that's impractical... I game at a store that does both. I see a hell of a
lot more people skills at the table than at the screen (and this is a bank of
5-6 computers, so friends can kibitz to each other about their computer
games...). I think face to face gaming is healther IMO...

Ob Trav: Hmm...the need for face to face sentient interactions, even though
there is enough tech for one to never leave one's apartment/flat... A good
example is on a passenger starship. Each cabin is self contained as far as
needs goes (food, clothing, entertainment, bodily functions). However, there
is still common space for entertaining and socializing. One can eat by oneself
in their cabin, or at the dining table with the others. This must be preferred
in the majority of the cases, as high passage implies served meals and
entertainment, while middle passage suggests spending more time in the cabin
fending for oneself....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:25:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Surveillance

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes:

> The satellites haven't gotten any bigger, and resolution is limited by
> mirror size; it's hard to fit anything bigger than 4 meters into a Titan
> payload shroud. So the ability of satellites to see fine detail is unlikely
> to have changed. (At least the professional satellite watchers - AvLeak and
> the FAS - think so.)

Hm...synthetic aperture visual light telescopes... ;)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 12:36:16 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion 

> > From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@glasscity.net>
> > Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion 
> > 
> > > > Oz. To E by way of C squared. To a millisecond before the Big Bang.
> > > > To Philadelphia. GM's choice, I suppose. <G>
> > > > 
> > > They may find themselves in Scotland.  >;-)
> > 
> > They go to a magical mystical place where impossible wonders are reality.
>  Such as, a balanced budget, honest politicians, lawyers who practice for
> the sake of law, and women aren't 30% plastic implants.
> 
> Don't tell me, they go to the Mid-West..

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

Or Iowa...

Closest place to Hell you can find, by my reckoning...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:59:49 EST
From: SunTsi@aol.com
Subject: Re jumspace recursion

My theses on jumpspace:
- - a J-Drive actually puts the ship into a higher dimension.
- - for a jump-1 you are hurled into the nth dimension for a jump-2 into the
n+1th and 
  so on. (this explains why you have to run a different navprogram for every 
  jumpnumber)
- - between the n+5th (used for jump-6) and the n+6th there is a barrier
similiar to
  the one between 3rd and nth dimension.
- - because we dont know the exact implications of higher dimensional physics,
we  
  build a force field around the ship to keep it and ourselves protected from
the high
  dimensional physics.( I realize this is widely accepted, but I repeat it for
  completeness) [higher dimensional physics suggestion: where do all those 
  "tunneling" electrons go, they could go through one of those dimensions !]
So according to my postulates, a ship that engages th J-Drives in jumpspace
would move to the higher dimensions and thus would move more parsecs in the
week. BUT: because you do not have the right programms for this kind of stuff
this is very dangerous ! And if you go to the n+6th dimension or higher,
chances are high those 
even weirder physics will do harm to you ! On the other hand, misjumps have
shown,
that you can survive higher dimensional jumps. The rules implie that. What
exactly happens in those hyperhyper dimensions (behind the n+5 barrier) should
be up to 
the gamemaster. 

to the one who mentioned StarCon2 : ever played StarCon 3? the ORZ are so much
more fun :-) ! 
Andreas Reimer

" *Happy campers* want to add *spice* to the *sauce* ? "
- - Orz ambassador

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 20:03:59 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: GT tech levels 

On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Chris Seamans wrote:

> Classic Traveller and T4 are exactly the same with their TL scales, which
> would put us currently at TL9. However, MT and TNE use a modified scale,
> which puts us firmly in the middle of TL 8. Which one of these is right?

 In which way do CT an T4 use the same TL scale? Looking at FF&S2 it
seems pretty much identical to FF&S1 in the treatment of TL:s. Also, IIRC
the TL-8 section of Emperor's Arsemal looks pretty modern day.

  Of course I don't have nearly all T4 material. Does Emperor's vehicles
for example have air/rafts at TL-8?

> Personally, I'll take the GURPS TL system at the moment, since it _is_ the
> only one that doesn't seem terribly broken.

 I agree, that The GURPS TL system is a pretty solid one. Adapting it to
Traveller takes some serious re-adjustment, however, and much of that
seems to be heavily taste-dependent.

> >Actually, the conversion should be that (GTL) 11 is traveller TL 14-16 or
> so --
> >GTL 11 includes early force fields and antimatter power plants, by TL 12
> you
> >have personal deflector shields, vehicular antimatter power plants and
> >weaponry, and a few other technologies.

  Most technologies thst would break the GTL-12 = TTL-15 comparison have
been either moved to other TL:s or stated not to exist at all in GT (eg.
force screens). Starangely, antimatter power seems to have been omitted.
At least I couldn't find any mention in GT at a quick glance. (Could be
there, though. Somebody tell me if you find it.)

> Let's see, also according to GURPS, contragravity and reactionless thrusters
> don't appear until quite a bit later. Of course, it was a simple matter for
> Loren to move the development up a bit to cover this. At the same time, no
> force fields (other than black globes and white globes) exist _at all_ in
> the Traveller Universe. Several other technologies that are listed in
> various GURPS books don't exist either.

  Indeed. So my question is, would it really have been impossible to move
FTL drives from GTL-9 to GTL-8, and make the conversion TTL-9 = GTL-8 ?  

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 12:10:35 -0500
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Man-Kzin war

Heck, if the 'Niners can take out the Pack, it should be easy for the
3I!  I think the Vikings are gonna be tough!  Now were those the Star
Vikings?

Greg

(sorry, American football humor)

"Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:
> 
> > How about the Pak?
> >
> > 3I vs the Pak?
> 
> 3I wins it hands down.  Not only does their technology overwhelm the Pak
> Protectors, but also the Protectors are extremely predictable.  As Brennan
> said, there's very little free will in a Protector.  They'll figure out the
> best possible tactic every time and use it.  All you have to do is figure out
> what it'll be and sucker them into it, then clobber them.
> 
> Keven
> 
> tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                                                      Science-Fiction Adventure
>                                                      In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:03:40 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: StarCruiser

>But the game I am talking about was a cockpit-view 3D combat simulation in
>space, via modem.  You had to pay so much an hour.  It was based upon
>StarCruiser or 2300AD...
>
>--Clif

There were adds in various computer magazines, many (4-5?) years ago, for a
"Star Cruiser" based multiplayer game with 3-d Wing Commander-type
views. If memory serves me well, it was being advertised by the very mpgn
that hosts this list (in its primitive early incarnation.) It did explictly
mention being based on "Star Cruiser". (MPGN had several other games based
on gdw wargame titles.) 

However, I never actually heard of anyone *playing* this, even in beta-test
form - my assumption is that it never got past the level of having 
mock-up art for ads.

As others have noted,since "Star Cruiser" combat takes place at 
million-km ranges, it can't have been a completely faithful implementation.

(Boy, two posts vaguely supportive of Clif in one day...)

bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:58:40 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Vargrs and psychological warfare

>As for Cliff's idea for a howl-sound-inducing ray gun - Cliff, are you now
>suggesting that the ability to create a "howl" is a minor ability of a more
>complex weapon, much as firing starshell flares is a minor ability
>of a US Navy Ticonderoga-class Cruiser? A weapon that can make
>hull plates of a tank or starship resonate in piercing howls needs
>capabilities just to pull off that stunt that would give it some very
>magical...er, "sufficiently advanced technology" capabilities.

Though I do not in any way agree with much of what Clif has suggested...the 
general view now of TNE'/T4's magical "Grav focus lasers"[1] is that they
have a gravity wave travelling with the laser pulse to keep it collimated.
The wave is too weak to be a weapon itself - about a G or two for a 
millisecond - but could produce a "whumm..." and/or slightly shake a ship
in a near-miss. You could imagine firing the grav pulse without the
laser to give people a wake-up call.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 14:25:14 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

At 08:14 07/01/1999 -0800, Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com> wrote:

<snip>  If my sixth-grader said she wanted to join a gaming club
>I'd be all for it, obviously.

It depends where you come from:

One of the Junior members of my Wargames Club let slip that he visited
a *gaming* club every Friday night and he was asked to explain himself
to the headmaster (his mother was summoned to be present as well)
...
As far as the head was concerned, whereas a *games* club was perfectly
okay, a *gaming* club was where you bet large sums of money on cards
or roulette.

Phil Kitching

(The school never had a problem accepting AD&D when I was there,
 well apart from during lessons :-)
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:08:22 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics 

>>
>> >Clif, one of the first lessons at the Infantry School is that standing
out
>> >is bad.  I was a sniper.
>>
>> Okay, now take a pack of snipers who howl from the shadows and then
quickly
>> descend with grav belts upon a village of weak, unarmed enemy
sympathizers.
>> That's the vargr strategy I'm describing.
>
>Serious misuse of snipers.  If you're gonna drop anybody into a 'ville,
you'll
>drop regular combat riflemen.
>
It is a comparison.  I threw in the grav belts for swift descent.  The
sniper weapons are there for the first strike.
>>
>> Fine, but a surprise attack scenario I am describing hand-in-hand with
the
>> quick convergence upon the weak target in an overwhelming pack (escorted
by
>> volleys of armament, of course) would be benefited by an unsettling howl.
>
>You still don't want *snipers* to do this.  You'd use regular line troops.

A sniper is just a soldier who has been trained to snipe and has the right
weapon and optics.  Some of those V.C. snipers probably weren't even
trained, unless it was on-the-job training.
>
>> >But that's not what they were designed for.  Which is what you seem to
be
>> >arguing.  Artillery is scary when it's hitting you.  On the other ridge,
>> >it's piss-poor fireworks.  On the enemy's ridge, it's a spectator sport.
>>
>> Even handgrenades have a very haunting whump sound when detonating off in
>> the distance.
>
>So what?  If they're not going off in my face, they're not my problem at
the
>moment, they're *somebody else's*.  The only time I worry about grenades is
>when somebody's throwing them at me.  At somebody else, well, tough luck,
>Charley, but that's the way it goes...

That's more easily said on paper, and you don't sound like the type who is
honest enough to express what is going on in his head, at the expense of his
"macho" image.
>
- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:12:50 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

In a message dated 1/8/99 9:44:31 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jamstar@glasscity.net writes:

<< Or Iowa...
 
 Closest place to Hell you can find, by my reckoning...
 
 Keven >>

Yeah but why does it constantly get "best place to live" votes? I spent a
summer at Cedar Rapids (1981) after 11th. grade. I took a computer science
course (in Fortran!) for college credit, at the University of Iowa. Very nice
college town. They had a game store, and I was introduced to wargaming; yea!.
I bought Ogre/GEV, and played D+D in the dorm. Unfortunately I didn't see
Traveller. That had to wait another year...:-(. I was impressed by the
"niceness" of the people. The one thing I hated was that the town went to
sleep at 9PM (and this a college town!). I didn't have wheels, or much money,
so I was bored out of my mind when I finished my work, and I couldn't get a
game going. I wouldn't mind living there, as long as I had a car, so I could
road trip to some place more fun on the weekends....

Ob Trav: Maybe this is a good description of a high tech high pop world. A
nice, pleasant place to live and raise a family, but boring as hell. The
malcontents, and adventurers become the travellers....These are good places to
retire a character when they are become to old to adventure, or the campaign
falls apart...You can then marry him/her off and pump out a couple of babies
who will grow up to join the Army/Navy/Scouts/Merchants and see the universe
(and then promptly exploit it....)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1382
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, January 8 1999      Volume 1998 : Number 1383



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)
Re: Traveller World Building-Biomes
Re: Maps?
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: Looking for copies of computer games
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Weapons and Such
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics 
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: jumpspace recursion
Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?
Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics 
Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)
Re: Traveller World Building-Biomes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 03:41:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 1/6/99 7:19:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:
>
> << And stopping a hungry polar bear requires something more than your
>  typical "hunting rifle"! >>
>
> My friend (who lived in AK) said that everybody thought that the best anti-
> bear gun was a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with slugs. The slug will break the
> bear's shoulder, and cripple it everytime...
>
> Ob Trav: carry a LAG? :-)

A Canadaian gunsmith made a bolt action *pistol* to deal with bear and
moose. Single shot, .50 call BMG "ball" ammo. 

I don't even want to *think* about .50 BMG "hollow point" if such
exists. :-)

Nor do I want to *fire* the damned thing!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 03:37:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller World Building-Biomes

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>>And as I noted: "Deep Ocean Vent" :-)
>>
>>If dealing with *sufficiently* alien life forms, it may be possible to
>>add a few biomes or to shift the temp/precip ranges some. 
>
> Over the holidays I read somewhere ("New Scientist" I think, but am not
> certain) than deep-rock bacteria may well have more biomass than any other
> lifeform. 

I think I read something similar in Scientific American or the like. 

> We definately need to include alien biomes, especially for other
> biochemistries. 

Well, I expect that they'd be more or less equivalent, just with
different temp ranges, and (possibly) different "precipitation".

Of course, truly *alien* biochemistries are going to be rare, simply
because the elemental abundances in the universe favor water/CO2 on
"rocky" type planets. Gas giants will be very different, but also not
visited much. 

> Also, many Earth biomes were very different before grass. We should
> include these for planets where plants never incorporated silica needles
> into themselves - that mutation radically changed Earth.

Have any details? Because as I understand it, *horsetails* (one of the
oldest existing forms of plant life) use that trick. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 03:45:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Maps?

In mail you write:

> Is there such a thing floating around in any available form, a map, possibly
> wall size, of the "known" Traveller universe?

There was an advertising poster that shows most of the known universe.
Those of us that own them aren't about to give them up. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 03:48:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

In mail you write:

> Here's food for thought:
>
> Let's say ship A is being carried in ship B. Ship B jumps into hyperspace.
> Sometime during the week, ship A executes a jump.
>
> What happens?

You've just destroyed both ships. 

Ship A is *definitely* inside the "10 diameter" danger zone of ship B,
no matter *how* you calculate it. In fact, you are effectively doing a
jump from *less* than .5 diameters (ie a jump from the "surface" of a
planet). So Ship A has had it.

I figure that the side effects of ship A *trying* to establish a jump
bubble will be sufficient to ruin ship B.

If I was the ref, I'd ask for the ship and character sheets. Then when
asked what happened, I'd simply say "The ships are never heard from
again, so your *new* characters won't know what happened..."

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:25:41 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for copies of computer games

Sanders said:
>>Where? I'd love to get my hands on a legit copy of MT1 (actually, I do
have
>>a legit copy of MT2, however the disks are dead. Oh great, I still do have
>>the manuals, though!).
>>
>>It's a shame that these games are so long out of print and so difficult to
>>find.
>
>Used software stores - I come across copies all the time, usually in the
>$10-20 dollar range.


There are absolutely no used software stores in my area (as a matter of
fact, I have a suspicion that used software stores might be illegal in my
area). Do you have an address (web or real) that I can get ahold of one of
these places?


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:22:47 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

> Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net ) >>
>
> Ahh, but you assume that anyone remembers what happened 10 or more years
ago,
>the parents of teenagers now were not the same batch of folks.   We remeber
>all that bad publicity crap because our collective ox got gored.
> Dave "Dr Stodgicus" Nelson
>P.S.   of course the hobby was never in as good a shape as when the
pubilicity
>was at its worst.


You are correct to an extent. However, it's not _exact_ memory that we have
to worry about. ;)

It's half remembering the excellently bad "Mazes and Monsters" (both the
book by Rona Jaffe, and the TV movie it spawned), and any number of "yellow
journalistic" reports on the subject that we have to worry about.

Then again, perhaps it's more recent around here! There was just a rape and
double murder in the area just a couple of years ago which the media claimed
was tied into the murderers roleplaying...

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 08:42:22 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Weapons and Such

>Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca writes:
>
><< 
> "Yes, Sir John, I understand that you have the right to carry that 
sidearm
> as a vassal of His Majesty. That sidearm isn't the issue. However, you
> have 'lost' ten sidearms this year, one of which was used to commit a
> murder last week. The Tweezlethorp Court sentenced you to the uranium
> mines for arms smuggling. Seems the chap who bought that last sidearm 
paid
> you to lose it...  >>
>
>	A knight may be in that position, but couldn't a high noble demand 
trial by
>his peers in the Moot?
>		Dave Nelson

Sure, if you want to place your political future in those who might 
prefer to see you disgraced and publically humiliated.
Ain't politics a nusiance?
:)
Roger Barr
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 10:29:04
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

At 10:03 PM 1/7/99 -0500, Clif wrote:

>Okay, now take a pack of snipers who howl from the shadows and then quickly
>descend with grav belts upon a village of weak, unarmed enemy sympathizers.
>That's the vargr strategy I'm describing.

Um, snipers by definition don't show themselves and don't do frontal attacks.

>>Screaming and taunting your foes is great when they can't hit you.  The
>>*only* modern force that makes use of such an effect is the Highlander
>>Regiments, who still bring pipers to the field.
>
>And the OPFOR at JRTC, "the most highly trained soldiers in the world".
>They don't seem to have attended the same school as you.

Clif, there is a vast world of difference between training and combat.

>Did you forget about the inverse laser microphone that transmits sound to a
>solid instead of reads it?

ROTFLMAO.  Since little idea has been thoroughly trashed by several other
people, I'll move on.

>Fine, but a surprise attack scenario I am describing hand-in-hand with the
>quick convergence upon the weak target in an overwhelming pack (escorted by
>volleys of armament, of course) would be benefited by an unsettling howl.

If they're so weak, why the need to overwhelm them?  You use psyops to
shake a steady force.  It worked well in the Gulf War for one side (70% of
the Iraqis who surrendered had a Psyops surrender flier in their
possession.) and very poorly for the other ("Bart Simpson is sleeping with
your wife!" Radio Baghdad propaganda broadcast)

>>And warn the victims that they were locked?  Why?  We are talking about an
>>intelligent race.
>
>Intelligent races USE psychological warfare!

Yep.  And that's rarely a matter of trying to scare people.  Psyops is a
matter of destroying the will to fight.  The best one I ever heard of was
the Allies printing up bogus editions of the German army newspaper Signal,
and air dropping them with captured German parachutes.  The papers were
well written, and subtly contained information about how bad things were
going.

>>We are discussing the Vargr, a game construct that has been around since
>>about 1980.  We know that the Vargr have been in contact with humaniti
>>since the time of the First Imperium.  For every published setting, Vargr
>>and humans have a long history.
>
>So, you ARE locked in, then?

To the subject at hand, yes.  We aren't discussing "some race that is
wolf-like, in a blank setting."  We are discussing the Vargr of Traveller.
This means we have to pay at least a little lip-service to the established
canon on the subject, along with the rules and spirit of the game.

>>There is a world of difference between an Army facility where you run
>>against other Americans playing the OPFOR, and being in a situation where
>>people with guns are trying very hard to kill you.  Trust me, you do not
>>howl, you just thank God that you didn't die today, and hope that you don't
>>die tomorrow.
>>
>Then maybe you'd better go jump on the Army PAO officer's desk at Ft.
>Chaffee for saying that the OPFOR were the most highly trained soldiers in
>the world?

Right.  And those signs at Schofield Barracks, Ft. Benning, Ft. Bragg, Camp
Casey, etc., etc., all said "we're number 2, we try harder?"  In the real
Army (what was your MOS and dates of service anyway?) every organization
claims to be the best, every branch claims to be doing the real work, and
we all agree the Navy are a bunch of fops in silly hats.

>>OK, this "howl ray" can turn the entire ship into a speaker, send an some
>>sort of audio signal through the vacuum of space, and be fired from such a
>>distance that the target ship can't respond effectively.
>
>When did I ever say that couldn't respond effectively?  If they had the same
>sort of ray and could get the thing pointed at a vargr ship they could do
>the same.  Gee whiz.  You guys must LIKE trying to put words in my mouth.

Clif, the term "stand-off" has a specific and exact meaning in terms of
weaponry.  It means that the weapon platform is firing from a position
where it can not be hit by return fire.  Your use of the language is
imprecise.

>>Your entire premise seems to shift as needed.  Why bother if the missiles
>>have been launched?
>
>The howl is in a LASER, jerk-off!  It travels at the speed of light!  It can
>get there just before the missiles hit!

Ah.  Once again, Clif shows his masterful self control and tact.  Clif, Now
that we're back in space again, why not just pump a few hundred thousand Mj
down that laser and actually hurt your target?  In space combat, you have
two goals; you either want to destroy the enemy, or disable the enemy so
that you can board her.  If you wish to board, the optimal solution is to
intimidate the enemy into surrendering.  We have an interesting concept
here on the drawing boards called "radio."  It works something like this:

"Human trader!  We are the Kfoueng ship Tzarr'agh, cease maneuvers and
prepare to be boarded!  We have you locked, and any change in delta-V will
be met with fire!"

If you want to destroy, don't bother with warnings, but just open up.

>>>But the booms have secondary effects, nevertheless, which was my point.
>>>(You think I don't know that artillery is used to blow shit up?)
>>
>>But that's not what they were designed for.  Which is what you seem to be
>>arguing.  Artillery is scary when it's hitting you.  On the other ridge,
>>it's piss-poor fireworks.  On the enemy's ridge, it's a spectator sport.
>
>Even handgrenades have a very haunting whump sound when detonating off in
>the distance.

You have got to be kidding.  Grenades make less noise than a popping
balloon if you throw them far enough.  The noisiest thing I was exposed to
was being in front of a .50 when it opened up over my head.. now that was
loud.

>You don't understand what I was saying about the ADJUTANT CALL, do you?

Yes I did.  I also saluted officers even though I didn't have a visor on my
great helm to raise.  Army traditions are based on what has worked before,
and are there to keep discipline.

>>No, roaches are insects.  They are nocturnal, are react poorly to light,
>>tending to scatter for dark areas.  The have lousy eyesight, and smell
>>through their knees.  They are dumber than bricks.  But they will survive
>>us humans, and probably whatever replaces us.
>
>So I should consider the implication that roaches are sentient retracted?

No one ever made that implication, except in your mind.

>>>HEAVY DUTY equipment would be a better description.  I don't think a thud
>>>gun that could do massive damage but dislocate your shoulder when you
>>>fired it qualifies as "nifty."
>>
>>Why not?  Kafers are bigger and stronger than humans, so they can handle
>>heavier recoil.
>
>Did I say that if Kafer "played nice" they would shoot wimpy .22 rifles?
>You're putting words in my mouth, again.  Why don't you try doing something
>ELSE for a change, like answering my points.

Did it ever occur to you that the Thud Gun only dislocated *human* shoulders?

>>You said "They basically acted like Roaches (after which they were named,
>>in the German)".  We have pointed out that the Kafers aren't anything like
>>roaches.  Nothing at all.  It was a nickname referring to how ugly they are
>>to human eyes, and their disgusting eating habits.  Their name for us
>>translated as "Meat Being."
>
>They ARE like roaches in that roaches will SPEED UP when they feel
>threatened.  That was my point.

*sigh*

Roaches do not speed up any more than any other creature on Earth moves
faster when it runs.  Care to provide any evidence to your theory?  Kafers
do not speed up, they think faster and more clearly when threatened.  I can
not find a single reference in 2300 to Kafers being physically faster when
threatened, only mentally.

Your point was wrong.

>>This race is intelligent.  They build starships.  Palmetto bugs don't do
>>that.
>
>No shit!  I wasn't the one whose reasoning was saying that palmetto bugs are
>sentient, anymore than I was saying dogs or cats are sentient, was I? What I
>DID do was question the poster's standards of what IS sentient, which seemed
>to be a rather fuzzy science for said individual (I don't even know his
>name...).

What you have done is assume that because a race looks like something
familiar, they will act that way.  Vargr *will* act like wolves, down to
howling, Aslan *will* act like cats, including a fondness for pouncing, and
in a reversal, cockroaches will act like Kafers..  this is wrong.

- --

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 13:35:10 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics 

> >Serious misuse of snipers.  If you're gonna drop anybody into a 'ville,
> you'll
> >drop regular combat riflemen.
> >
> It is a comparison.  I threw in the grav belts for swift descent.  The
> sniper weapons are there for the first strike.

You don't understand the difference in mindsets between a sniper and a line 
trooper.  Sniping is a terror tactic most effectively used when nobody *else* 
is shooting off the guns & banging the bombs.

> >You still don't want *snipers* to do this.  You'd use regular line troops.
> 
> A sniper is just a soldier who has been trained to snipe and has the right
> weapon and optics.  Some of those V.C. snipers probably weren't even
> trained, unless it was on-the-job training.

Who was talking VC?  You sound like one of those idiots who saw one too many 
SEAL movies or who believes that *everything* in that John Wayne flick about 
the Special Forces was 100% dead on target.  It wasn't even *close*.

> >> >But that's not what they were designed for.  Which is what you seem to
> be
> >> >arguing.  Artillery is scary when it's hitting you.  On the other ridge,
> >> >it's piss-poor fireworks.  On the enemy's ridge, it's a spectator sport.
> >>
> >> Even handgrenades have a very haunting whump sound when detonating off in
> >> the distance.
> >
> >So what?  If they're not going off in my face, they're not my problem at
> the
> >moment, they're *somebody else's*.  The only time I worry about grenades is
> >when somebody's throwing them at me.  At somebody else, well, tough luck,
> >Charley, but that's the way it goes...
> 
> That's more easily said on paper, and you don't sound like the type who is
> honest enough to express what is going on in his head, at the expense of his
> "macho" image.

Wanna know what goes on inside somebody's head when they're in combat?  Simple 
enough to say.  You wanna stay *alive*.  The only things you'll pay attention 
to is what's happening right in front of you.  What's happening someplace else 
is *NOT YOUR PROBLEM*, and if you try to do anything about something that's 
*NOT YOUR PROBLEM*, you get a ride back to The World in a body bag.  How do I 
know this?  I've *BEEN* there.  Nothing 'macho' to it.  Just pure survival.

Now, if hearing artillery hitting on a ridge 3 klicks out scares the hell 
outta you, my advice is to stay the hell outta uniform and let the pros handle 
it.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 08:57:46 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

>
>From: Roger Barr 
>> If they really want to try it I'd say "Roll 2d6 and pray."
>
>The basic game mechanics from CT, and why I prefer it to all the other
>versions.
>
>Alan Bradley
>alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
>
Actually, it works for MT as well, since there is really no TASK to be 
performed (except perhaps, Last Rights...)
:)
Roger Barr


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 13:28:08 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

Mike Smith wrote:

> What?  You mean that doesn't work?  Damn, I've been misled for years!
> :)

Nope.  Its even canon in AD&D that you go to the Abyss.

> I figure that there are a bunch of alternate universes side-by-side, so you
> can stick a bunch of bags of holding inside a bag of holding!  Kinda
> tardis-like...

The Tardis was Baba Yaga's Hut.

> Then again, you have to *get* a bunch of bags of holding...  Hay Tiamat...
> here dragon, nice dragon, lunch is here.

Now if you put a bag of holding in a bag of devouring, you might get a real
mess.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:26:57 -0000
From: "MindShift Design" <mindshift@usa.net>
Subject: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?

A quick question to everyone on the TML:

How many people would like to see an 'official' licensed play by mail/email
version of Traveller ? One with all the background of the Traveller
universe, but with an intuitive command system for performing actions and
actual roleplaying ? One that would allow thousands of players to play
together at the same time with and against each other ? One that is played
regularly and has many levels of complexity so that it makes the game
enjoyable for new players as well as Traveller veterans ?

Anyone interested ? Feedback ? Thoughts ?

Regards

Jason Paul McCartan
MindShift Design Game Studios
Game Developers
 "Altering Perceptions, Creating Worlds"

Home to the PBM/PBeM Developers Webring

email: mindshift@usa.net
website: http://members.xoom.com/mindshift

ICQ #: 16802661
AIM: Japem

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 11:59:01 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > In a message dated 1/6/99 7:19:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> > shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:
> >
> > << And stopping a hungry polar bear requires something more than your
> >  typical "hunting rifle"! >>
> >
> > My friend (who lived in AK) said that everybody thought that the best anti-
> > bear gun was a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with slugs. The slug will break the
> > bear's shoulder, and cripple it everytime...
> >
> > Ob Trav: carry a LAG? :-)
> 
> A Canadaian gunsmith made a bolt action *pistol* to deal with bear and
> moose. Single shot, .50 call BMG "ball" ammo.
> 
> I don't even want to *think* about .50 BMG "hollow point" if such
> exists. :-)
> 
> Nor do I want to *fire* the damned thing!

Oh he _said_ it was 'to deal with bear and moose.' It was built because
they wanted the baddest pistol that could be carried. If you're talking
about the Maadi-Griffin, it was available in carbine form too.

The thing is huge...here's a ref:

http://www.prairienet.org/guns/big/mg.htm

and a gif:

http://www.prairienet.org/guns/pixs/lpb.gif

and someone _firing_ it. Fairly average to petite someone, I'd say, too.

http://www.prairienet.org/guns/pixs/tw.gif

This is nothing, there is one gunsmith making a _20mm_ rifle! Take THAT,
you Star Viking!!!

http://members.aol.com/rpauza/noframe/20mm-n.html



- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 10:47:49
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics 

At 01:08 PM 1/8/99 -0500, you wrote:

>It is a comparison.  I threw in the grav belts for swift descent.  The
>sniper weapons are there for the first strike.

No, they aren't.  Snipers are a precise tool, not something that you waste
on an attack like this on a (as you describe it) defenseless village.  The
best employment of snipers is either covering a known route of
communication, or involved in deep penetration against enemy command assets.

>A sniper is just a soldier who has been trained to snipe and has the right
>weapon and optics.  Some of those V.C. snipers probably weren't even
>trained, unless it was on-the-job training.

Gee, thanks.  There is a lot more to sniping than being a shooter.  Ever
take eight hours to crawl fifty feet?  Ever have to do it twice?  Snipers
are specialists in both shooting and recon.  The USMC and Army treat
snipers differently, but in both services we are not considered overly
expendable.

The VC/NVA did train snipers.  Since the supplies of SVD rifles, along with
the match-grade ammo, was limited, VC snipers did attend training camps
that pushed the three main elements of successful sniper ops:

1: Infiltration
2: Target Selection and engagement
3: Extraction

In 1969, an American LRRP Mike team overran a VC sniper school.  The lesson
plan on the chalkboard was "The danger of American long-range patrols"
That blackboard is now at the HQ of the 75th Inf (Ranger).

>>So what?  If they're not going off in my face, they're not my problem at
>>the moment, they're *somebody else's*.  The only time I worry about
>>grenades is when somebody's throwing them at me.  At somebody else, well,
>>tough luck, Charley, but that's the way it goes...
>
>That's more easily said on paper, and you don't sound like the type who is
>honest enough to express what is going on in his head, at the expense of his
>"macho" image.

Clif, for you to discuss honesty..  from what I've seen, your discussions
of the military have mention one rotation at a training facility.  You
haven't told us what you MOS, rank, or any other duty assignments you might
have carried.  We don't even know your full name.  To be blunt, from the
way you write, I believe that you've never served a day of active duty.
I've a friend at DCSPERS, so if you want to email me your Service Number, I
can confirm that you aren't BSing us.
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 10:53:42
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)

At 03:41 AM 1/8/99 PST, you wrote:

>A Canadaian gunsmith made a bolt action *pistol* to deal with bear and
>moose. Single shot, .50 call BMG "ball" ammo. 
>
>I don't even want to *think* about .50 BMG "hollow point" if such
>exists. :-)
>
>Nor do I want to *fire* the damned thing!

You can find Traveller stats, along with a picture of the damn thing at:

http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/pistol.html

Under ACQ, hollopoints do x2 damage, with armor protection doubled.  Assume
that the bear has armor 1.  The gun does 5d6, reduced to 3d6.  Average
damage is 10.5, doubled to 21.  Ouch.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:05:02 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller World Building-Biomes

>Over the holidays I read somewhere ("New Scientist" I think, but am not
>certain) than deep-rock bacteria may well have more biomass than any other
>lifeform.


I've heard the same thing. The figures I saw a little while ago put the
biomass of deep rock bacteria at 98% of the earth's total biomass.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1383
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.comTraveller-digest      Friday, January 8 1999      Volume 1998 : Number 1384



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)
Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ? 
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: GT tech levels 
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: StarCruiser
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: Man-Kzin war 
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics 
Re: GT tech levels
T4 Fusion guns
Last chance for Traveller-I think not!
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?
Red Riding Hood and PsyWar
Portable Holes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 11:12:46
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)

At 11:59 AM 1/8/99 -0700, Bruce wrote:

>This is nothing, there is one gunsmith making a _20mm_ rifle! Take THAT,
>you Star Viking!!!
>
>http://members.aol.com/rpauza/noframe/20mm-n.html

Where in the hell do you get a match-grade 20mm barrel?  I doubt this
monstrousity will be of much use, since the sheer size of the round brings
down the effectiveness to that of a .50, which is already a cumbersome
enough weapon.

- --

Douglas E. Berry
Pawn of the Droyne Conspiracy.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

UTUP: 0304 B-662D37B-5-5-2

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 14:10:15 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ? 

> A quick question to everyone on the TML:
> 
> How many people would like to see an 'official' licensed play by mail/email
> version of Traveller ? One with all the background of the Traveller
> universe, but with an intuitive command system for performing actions and
> actual roleplaying ? One that would allow thousands of players to play
> together at the same time with and against each other ? One that is played
> regularly and has many levels of complexity so that it makes the game
> enjoyable for new players as well as Traveller veterans ?
> 
> Anyone interested ? Feedback ? Thoughts ?

Yeah, it's interesting.  Can you make the software Linux compatible, too?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep




tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 12:16:21 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

>So by your previous statement, are you saying that the palmetto bugs  here in
>Florida are getting ready for a highly technological invasion?
>
>--Clif
>
>
>


OKAY, NOW I'M SCARED!!!!
("It's a bug hunt."  Aliens)

Roger Barr

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:37:47 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GT tech levels 

Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi> wrote:

>  Of course I don't have nearly all T4 material. Does Emperor's vehicles
>for example have air/rafts at TL-8?

Emperor's Vehicles doesn't have Tech levels, period.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 12:32:01 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Sender: owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM
>Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM
>
>Where do they go?  
>
>--Clif

Somewhere extremely far away.
(This answer might also be best answered by a asking a priest...)
:)
Roger Barr

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:27:57 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: StarCruiser

"Anson Betts" <AFBetts@salcom.co.nz> wrote:

>Space combat in 2300 AD is at ranges where a cockpit view would show
>nothing. According to the directors guide it use a map of hexes each 600 000
>km in diameter. Ain't no point having a cockpit view at those sort of
>ranges. I haven't seen star cruiser but I wouldn't expect it to be a
>dogfight kind of system.

Think of it as an uncomplicated Brilliant Lances.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:24:31 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:

>P.S.  This whole discussion reminds me of the AD&D trick where if you put a
>portable hole inside a bag of holding, chances were you'd get sucked into
>a layer
>of the Abyss.  At least in first edition rules.

Cool! An escape from AD&D to Traveller? Was there a table to see if a
passing Imperial Cruiser performing deep space refueling found you and
transported you back to the Spinward Main too?

Dom ;-)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:14:43 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Man-Kzin war 

 "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> wrote:

>3I wins it hands down.  Not only does their technology overwhelm the Pak
>Protectors, but also the Protectors are extremely predictable.  As Brennan
>said, there's very little free will in a Protector.  They'll figure out the
>best possible tactic every time and use it.  All you have to do is figure out
>what it'll be and sucker them into it, then clobber them.

What if the 'best possible tactic' is not using the best possible tactic? ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:30:49 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:

>	How about this:    Jump drive doesn't work in a gravitational
>field.    The
>inside of a ship has artificial gravity equal to 1-G, much more than
>experienced at 100 diameters from a world surface.   Thus by using only canon
>information we can conclude a Jump drive will not work inside of another ship
>(in Jump space or not).

Or, the hydrogen gas used to inflate the jump bubble (cf FFS2) mixes with
the oxygen/nitrogen atmosphere in the seconds before jump and detonates
before jump insertion is complete, totally destroying both ships.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:43:10 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics 

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:

>>> >Clif, one of the first lessons at the Infantry School is that standing
>out
>>> >is bad.  I was a sniper.
>>>
>>> Okay, now take a pack of snipers who howl from the shadows and then quickly
>>> descend with grav belts upon a village of weak, unarmed enemy sympathizers.
>>> That's the vargr strategy I'm describing.
>>
>>Serious misuse of snipers.  If you're gonna drop anybody into a 'ville, you'll
>>drop regular combat riflemen.
>>
>It is a comparison.  I threw in the grav belts for swift descent.  The
>sniper weapons are there for the first strike.

Please *source* your quotes, then we can know who's on each side of the
flamefest.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:56:41 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT tech levels

In a message dated 1/8/99 1:06:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, eptitu@utu.fi
writes:

<< 
  In which way do CT an T4 use the same TL scale? Looking at FF&S2 it
 seems pretty much identical to FF&S1 in the treatment of TL:s. Also, IIRC
 the TL-8 section of Emperor's Arsemal looks pretty modern day.
 
   Of course I don't have nearly all T4 material. Does Emperor's vehicles
 for example have air/rafts at TL-8? >>

		T4  definitely changed some weapon TL, especially lasers.  In CT/MT you
could get a laser carbine at TL-8, and Laser Rifle at TL-9, but in Emperor's
Arsenal in T4  Laser weapons are not available until TL-12.   

	Second,  Emperor's Vehicles is a big waste of a book;  it never tells you
what the TL of ANY of the vehicles are, ever, there isn't a place for TL on
the "cards".  I think the idea was that these were all vehicles available on
Sylea in the Year 0, even though many are pre-gravitic, all of which isn't
helpful if you need a TL-8 truck out the the Fringe.   (DGP's MT 101 vehicles
was a far superior book).

However, in T4  basic volume  Air/raft and G carrier are TL 8 items.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:40:53 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: T4 Fusion guns

>Though I do not in any way agree with much of what Clif has suggested...the
>general view now of TNE'/T4's magical "Grav focus lasers"[1] is that they
>have a gravity wave travelling with the laser pulse to keep it collimated.
>The wave is too weak to be a weapon itself - about a G or two for a
>millisecond - but could produce a "whumm..." and/or slightly shake a ship
>in a near-miss. You could imagine firing the grav pulse without the
>laser to give people a wake-up call.

Or you could use the grav pulse (which must move at the speed of light) and
use it to accelerate and guide a stream of plasma from a plasma gun to use
against enemy vessels? Hey presto, HG plasma and fusion guns become viable
again?

Or is there a major flaw in my thinking?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 19:42:28 +0100
From: Volker Greimann <greimann@geocities.com>
Subject: Last chance for Traveller-I think not!

People have been lamenting on the last chance for Traveller, how dark the
future looks, etc.

I must say, i feel the opposite. Finally, The future seems optimistic.
Let me explain:
What we have is:
- -T5 in production for a long time now. No haste-products, no hassle, its
done when its done!
So the quality of this product should be amazing.
- -Traveller has been through a hard time with IG on the wheel, but it showed
everybody how not to do things.
- -G:T is out, products of good quality, that help newbies grasp details of
the background that made Traveller so great. G:T should help bring in new
players, or at least buyers.
- -BITS are producing supplement of pretty good quality, maybe not yet up to
DGP standards, but 
a possible successor.

The Brand: Approved for use with Traveller is back!
I just saw it on the usenet, that a book with deckplans for Holistic
Designs Fading Suns has been "Approved for use with Traveller". They are
proud of that brand and to be associated with Traveller. People who see
this will say: Hmm, Traveller, lets check that out as well. It brings the
name back into the gamers mind. 
When i asked who approved it, i was told it was by MM. I must congratulate
you on this move, Marc, as it helps marketing Traveller as well. Its free
Advertisement. 
If MM keeps this up, and regularly "Approves" good quality products, that
can be used with Traveller, this will help people forget all about the
errors of IG.

Concluding, i must say, that to me, Traveller seems to be on the rise
again. When T5 comes out, lets be ready to promote Traveller. Lets make
Traveller a success again, for the greatest resource of Traveller,
regardless of the creed or System, is us, the fans. 
Volker
- ---
Volker A. Greimann, greimann@geocities.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:34:46 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

- -----Original Message-----
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, January 07, 1999 11:15 PM
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics


>
>Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
>"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
>"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
>     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>Date: Thursday, January 07, 1999 8:31 PM
>Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
>
>
>>
>>By WHAT plasma weapons?  Any SMART ship would run from the pack and leave
>>the weak target alone to be victimized.  The victim might get off some
>>shots, but would be overwhelmed by the pack of "ravening wolves."  Maybe
>you
>>should go back and read the original post, again.
>
>
>I didn't really need to go back and read it again. I remembered it
>specifically. However, I'll gladly repost an excerpt from your original
>post:
>
>'You could hear them "a mile away" and could pick some of them off, but
>they'd get their "food" for the day.'
>
>Those are your words, not mine. I call your attention to the part where you
>said 'you... could pick some of them off"

Right!  You get some ships in a battle and SOMEBODY is gonna get picked
off...

In any case, it would have to be play-tested.
>
>>...and they could USE the technology for those others uses, but it would
be
>>preceded by a howl.
>
>
>But why then even bother with the howl? Just because they're descended from
>dogs?

I've ALREADY stated why...  I really think you should go back and read the
previous posts...
>
>>You're talking about a RPG, "dude"!  Since when are you LOCKED IN to the
>>"current" date?  The T4 book actually brags that you can run a campaign
>from
>>anywhere way, way back to a time that is "up-to-the-minute."  Geez, and
>some
>>of you call ME close-minded!  You're the kind of person that probably
>thinks
>>artists should stick to "convention", eh?
>
>
>I'm not even going to bother with this...
>
>>I DIDN'T outline a "howl and run" tactic, my reading
>>comprehensionally-challenged acquaintance.  The ones who ran were the
OPFOR
>>of JRTC in Arkansas, and I was describing their methods to show that even
>>"SENTIENT" beings howl when they engage in warfare.  How much more would
>>semi-canines?(or whatever they are...)
>
>
>Would you like me to quote the entirety of your original post on the
>subject? Y'know, the one I quoted from towards the beginning of this
>message? The one in which you ascribe moronic tactics to Vargr based on the
>fact that they're descended from dogs? I wasn't even referring to your post
>about the real world soldiers.
>
>On the other hand, I see you've reduced yourself to personal insults. I
have
>responded to your messages politely. I have not insulted you, or harassed
>you. Even though you caused problems on the list with other folks, I wasn't
>being an asshole to you.
>
>I'm going to ask you politely:Would you kindly deal with me with the same
>respect that I have given you? In other words, don't be a dick to me. If
you
>have a problem with my request, then don't expect me to acknowledge your
>existence in the future.
>
>>No one said that they had to stand off at a "pot shot" distance with
>targets
>>on their chests when they "howled".  Besides, making a speaker out of the
>>ship may give them the time they need to close the distance.
>
>
>Look, you are flipping back and forth between ground combat and space
>combat. Settle with one or the other for now. If you want to talk about
>space combat, say you're talking about space combat. If you want to talk
>about ground combat, say you're talking about ground combat. Most of the
>examples you've given have pertained to ground combat.

The idea is the same, whether you're talking about "2-D" planes or "3-D"
space.  Stand off at a distance, fire off a preemptive strike, howl before
it hits, then close in on the meat in a pack while the others run from an
outnumbering force...
>
>I don't have the time or inclination to discuss this with you if you're
>going to flip flop whenever you feel it suits you.

You can't see that sometimes I'm using analogies employing ground-based
objects so that you can finally get the idea straight, once and for all,
whether it is taking place in 2D or 3D?
>
>>They wouldn't be the only ones whose forces would be dwindling.  And who
is
>>to say that the Vargr would not wait to "howl" until a preemptive strike
>had
>>been made?  You, I guess.
>
>
>Alright. I refer you to your own quote towards the top of this message. You
>are the one who said it, not me.

But no one said damage to Vargrs was a prerequisite.  It goes without saying
that the Vargr are going to try to get their meat for free, if they can.  I
simply anticipated objections by making the allowance of a few being picked
off.
>
>>But the booms have secondary effects, nevertheless, which was my point.
>>(You think I don't know that artillery is used to blow shit up?)
>
>
>I had pointed out how "chest-thumping" to avert combat were remnants of the
>behavior of our ancestors.

Ohhh, now it is to AVERT combat?  Well, a couple of Nukes once "AVERTED"
combat, and they simply artillery on the massive scale (though dropped from
a plane, it matters not, since it is the boom we are talking about).  Those
who saw the image surrendered.
>
>Your response was that artillery and tank fire served the same purpose.
>
>I then pointed out that artillery and tank fire has a specific reason on
the
>battlefield, in that it directly destroys enemy resources...
>
>>Sure, but I had said that military units tend to have SOP's, standard
>>operating procedures...  Even the Army TODAY, modern as it is, has some
>>damned silly rituals.  Have you ever seen an "ADJUTANT'S CALL"?  I
couldn't
>>even wring the story behind it out of either of my S-1's when I was in the
>>Army.
>
>
>Silly rituals and behavior that gets you wiped out on the battlefield are
>two _totally_ different things. You can't mix apples and oranges.
>
>>>No. Kafer did not act like roaches. Not one bit. They acted like
creatures
>>>with a low degree of sentient intelligence.
>>
>>So you are saying that roaches have a high degree of sentient
intelligence?
>>That would explain your definition of "sentient", I guess.
>
>
>You rudely accuse me of not reading your post (which I did), and then you
>just ignore segments of my post at whim.
>
>Please scan up a few lines and read the part where I said, clearly, "No
>Kafer did not act like roaches, not one bit. They acted like creatures with
>a low degree of sentient intelligence."
>
>Now, how that would imply that I was saying that roaches were sentient is
>anybody's guess. I was saying that Kafer were sentient.

In a previous post SOMEONE (I can't keep track) said something that
logically implied that roaches were sentient.  I don't know if it was you or
someone else.
>
>>HEAVY DUTY equipment would be a better description.  I don't think a thud
>>gun that could do massive damage but dislocate your shoulder when you
fired
>>it qualifies as "nifty."
>
>
>Which thud gun are you talking about? A book reference, or page reference
>would be really handy.

That's a little difficult when the books are so hard to come by.

> In fact, after a cursory scan at the "Director's
>Guide" and "Kafer Dawn" I have found no references to Kafer dislocating
>their own shoulders.

Of course not!  They are designed for Kafers!  But if a human picks up one
of these weapons that SOMEONE called "nifty", they could dislocate their
shoulder with the recoil.

> In fact, I see a line ("Kafer Dawn" p. 27) that says
>"Kafer technology appears to be, on the whole, more advanced than that of
>humans."

Yeah, but more HEAVY DUTY, also, like I said!
>
>Further, I see plenty of nifty gadgets listed. In the "Director's Guide" we
>have a large ship, a fighter craft, and a stutterwarp missile. In "Kafer
>Dawn" I see a revolver, an assault rifle, a laser rifle, a vehicle mounted
>plasma gun, a remote anti-vehicle missile system and several vehicles.
>
>On the whole, I'd say they must be pretty damn smart in the wild.

And the fact that they exist necessarily makes them "nifty"?  Sorry, but I
thought BatMan and Bond had "nifty" gadgets.  Kafer have HEAVY DUTY
equipment.
>
>>As for the refresher, I wish you'd tell me something that I DON'T know.
>Can
>>you not see that I must have known all of this when I said what I said
>about
>>the Kafer?  Can you not see that I qualified my statements with a
>>parenthetical disclaimer?  No, you've proven that you can't see.
>
>
>If you knew all this, you'd probably not say that they acted like roaches.
I
>was merely informing you that you were underestimating what the Kafers
>_could_ do when they weren't in danger.
>
>>So by your previous statement, are you saying that the palmetto bugs here
>in
>>Florida are getting ready for a highly technological invasion?
>
- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:39:57 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?

In a message dated 1/8/99 1:56:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, mindshift@usa.net
writes:

<< 
 How many people would like to see an 'official' licensed play by mail/email
 version of Traveller ? One with all the background of the Traveller
 universe, but with an intuitive command system for performing actions and
 actual roleplaying ? >>

		Why not,  if it's good who wouldn't like to see that?
			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:45:13 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Red Riding Hood and PsyWar

>All this about howling and psyching out defenseless targets...

"Weak" was my word, not "defenseless".  If I ever used the word
"defenseless" I only did it to convey "weakness" because some others seemed
to think that the "weak" posed a great danger.
>
>If the target is defenseless and your plan is to overwhelm it, why bother
>psyching it out? Vargr go to war for Charisma, for self-preservation, for
profit,
>out of anger, even for principles, but they don't seem to have a racial
>tendency to go to war for entertainment purposes.

I never said this.  I likened what they would be doing to feeding upon the
weak.
>
>Economy of force. While you focus an overwhelming amount of your
>forces on an easily-destroyed and helpless target, those forces of yours
>are unavailable to counter moves by less-than-helpless enemy forces.
>A unit wasted by inefficient deployment is almost as useless as a unit
>thatstays home and watches "Packmates VII: Heat of the Night" on holovid
>(the pay-per-view channels, you know).
>
LOL!  Okay, but not all act wisely all of the time.

>Perhaps you gain a morale advantage by slaughtering an exposed
>enemy unit (or group of enemy civilians) with your mobile force.
>Perhaps your enemy gets a morale advantage as all his drop marines
>start taking up Vargr hunting as a personal hobby. Regardless, the time
>you spent butchering something of his that was harmless your enemy
>probably spent butchering something of yours that was useful.

"weak", not harmless
>
>Of course, if Vargr attacked this way, there will always be the
>minimally clued-in enemy commander who will provide a perfect
>target for such a raid.
>
>"Force leader! A human mobile hospital convoy has fallen out of position!
>We are overrunning them right now...." <static as the fusion bomb in one
>of the fake remote-piloted "hospital trucks" detonates...>

You have a very sick mind.  I like it!
>
>Add the Vargr racial pride. If my reading of Vargr source material is
>accurate, frightening or otherwise "gaining Charisma" over a human or other
>non-Vargr  would be considered pointless - a Vargr who bothered with such
>games would probably suffer a loss of vital Charisma, as he obviously is
>scaring humans because he's too much of a wimp to scare another Vargr.

Uh, I was not aware that it was dishonourable to pick on humans vs. Vargr.
I admit that I have not read much about Vargr, preferring human and
android-only campaigns.  I was merely trying to see if some method might be
added to the madness.
>
>As for Cliff's idea for a howl-sound-inducing ray gun - Cliff, are you now
>suggesting that the ability to create a "howl" is a minor ability of a more
>complex weapon, much as firing starshell flares is a minor ability
>of a US Navy Ticonderoga-class Cruiser? A weapon that can make
>hull plates of a tank or starship resonate in piercing howls needs
>capabilities just to pull off that stunt that would give it some very
>magical...er, "sufficiently advanced technology" capabilities.

I hadn't really planned on talking about OTHER capabilities of such a ray,
as my purpose was to talk about how such a thing might be accomplished.
>
>Vargr may have Psychological Warfare units. As Vargr are scientifically
>capable sentient beings, I believe their Psychological Warfare techniques
>will be oriented towards what their enemies are vulnerable to, rather than
>how Terran canines may have behaved thousands of years ago.

Lots of people are still afraid of dogs.  With vargr, you are basically
talking about the thing that ate Little Red Riding Hood's grandmother and
almost made a tasty morsel out of her.
>
>Walt Smith
>

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:50:09 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Portable Holes

There was a Grenadier boxed set of female miniatures.  One was a fighter
with a 2-handed sword.  She had some kind of hat with a dragon head on it.
I explained this by giving her a pseudo-dragon for a pet and having a
portable hole on top of her hat, in which it would sit, claws hanging onto
the edge.

The pseudo-dragon was on her mind a lot.

- --Clif

>P.S.  This whole discussion reminds me of the AD&D trick where if you put a
>portable hole inside a bag of holding, chances were you'd get sucked into a
layer
>of the Abyss.  At least in first edition rules.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1384
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, January 8 1999      Volume 1998 : Number 1385



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Last chance for Traveller-I think not!
Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)
Re: Maps?
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Cool surviving Reality
Re: StarCruiser
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1382
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Inverse Laser Microphone
Re: GT tech levels 
An Open Letter to Clif: Please Relax
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: Vargr, in combat.
Re: Cool surviving Reality
Re: StarCruiser
Re: Vargr, in combat.
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: jumpspace recursion
Inverse Laser Microphone
Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?
Re: GT tech levels
Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ? 
Re: Looking for copies of computer games
Re: Last chance for Traveller-I think not!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:55:21 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Last chance for Traveller-I think not!

In a message dated 1/8/99 3:45:34 PM Eastern Standard Time,
greimann@geocities.com writes:

<< 
 Concluding, i must say, that to me, Traveller seems to be on the rise
 again. When T5 comes out, lets be ready to promote Traveller. Lets make
 Traveller a success again, for the greatest resource of Traveller,
 regardless of the creed or System, is us, the fans. 
 Volker >>

	Right On!   I'm really looking forward to seeing some T5 stuff.  has anyone
seen any of the play test files?   I'd really like to get some demo games
going at a local extremely-gamer friendly store here in North VA, but haven't
seen any of the files.  Is any of the material going to be compatable with T4
data? (well, with Emp's arsenal anyway, I kind of lked that one).

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:59:01 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)

In a message dated 1/8/99 10:20:04 AM Pacific Standard Time,
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:

<< A Canadaian gunsmith made a bolt action *pistol* to deal with bear and
 moose. Single shot, .50 call BMG "ball" ammo. 
 
 I don't even want to *think* about .50 BMG "hollow point" if such
 exists. :-)
 
 Nor do I want to *fire* the damned thing! >>

Ow my aching wrists! I thought handguns were a no-no in Canada?

Ob Trav: duh; law levels...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:01:18 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Maps?

In a message dated 1/8/99 10:21:29 AM Pacific Standard Time,
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:

<< There was an advertising poster that shows most of the known universe.
 Those of us that own them aren't about to give them up. :-) >>

Is that the black map that's about the size of the Spinwards Marches map that
came with Deluxe CT, and looks like a nicer version of the ones on the back
page of the CT Aliens modules?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:03:25 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

In a message dated 1/8/99 10:23:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, semo@pil.net
writes:

<< Then again, perhaps it's more recent around here! There was just a rape and
 double murder in the area just a couple of years ago which the media claimed
 was tied into the murderers roleplaying...
 
 Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net  >>

Sounds like an out of control live action Gothic Vampire game....:-)
Seriously, do you have a copy of the story(s)?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:00:14 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Cool surviving Reality

>I refer to inverse laser microphones and stuff like that - a laser capable
>of inducing vibrations (sound) in a metal structure would have to do so by
>hitting it with a great many of those quantised engergy packets in order to
>get the metal moving.
>
>Sadly, this causes an effect called "heating" which is detrimental to the
>metal. IE: This device would vapourise the target before making much useful
>sound. An example of a "cool" device that doesn't survive reality

Oh, but "jump drives" and "lanthanum grids" survive reality?

Excuse me, while I bust a gut.

This was a Sci-Fi game, you said?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:05:17 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: StarCruiser

Look, I'm talking about a Computer Simulation game that you could play via
modem for so much money an hour.  It ALREADY existed and was based on
StarCruiser or 2300AD.  I'm asking people who KNOW what I'm talking about to
give me more info.  Evidently, no one on this list saw it or played it.  It
enabled you to LOOK at nearby ships with a cockpit view.  If you don't like
it, find out who I'm talking about and bitch to THEM!  It's not my problem!

Since you don't know, either, keep your grimy nose OUT!

- --Clif
>
>>But the game I am talking about was a cockpit-view 3D combat simulation in
>>space, via modem.  You had to pay so much an hour.  It was based upon
>>StarCruiser or 2300AD...
>>
>>--Clif
>Space combat in 2300 AD is at ranges where a cockpit view would show
>nothing. According to the directors guide it use a map of hexes each 600
000
>km in diameter. Ain't no point having a cockpit view at those sort of
>ranges. I haven't seen star cruiser but I wouldn't expect it to be a
>dogfight kind of system.
>
>Cheers,
> Anson.
>
>Oook Oook
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 14:11:54 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1382

>>>>
Though I do not in any way agree with much of what Clif has suggested...the 
general view now of TNE'/T4's magical "Grav focus lasers"[1] is that they
have a gravity wave travelling with the laser pulse to keep it collimated.
The wave is too weak to be a weapon itself - about a G or two for a 
millisecond - but could produce a "whumm..." and/or slightly shake a ship
in a near-miss. You could imagine firing the grav pulse without the
laser to give people a wake-up call.

Bruce
>>>>
I like this!  This provides the cinematic feel that Real World (tm) lasers don't give (shaking the ship when it receives a hit from an energy weapon).  Bruce's reading of the material differs from mine (I had the impression that the gravity focusing happened in the weapon itself), but I might be persuaded to make the 'feel' of space combat more familiar to those who grew up on Star Wars and Star Trek.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:15:10 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

In a message dated 1/8/99 12:36:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, dom@cybergoths.u-
net.com writes:

<< Please *source* your quotes, then we can know who's on each side of the
 flamefest. >>

or better yet. take the f-----g to private E mail. Clif; I thought you were
getting better...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:11:31 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Inverse Laser Microphone

>>Did you forget about the inverse laser microphone that transmits sound to
a
>>solid instead of reads it?
>>
>I thought sound was vibrations?

Yes, and the effect of those vibrations on auditory organs.

> I thought that lasers heated things up,
>which does make the electrons speed up, but with a rapid enough change of
>heat so the target expands and contracts thus moving the atmosphere so as
to
>produce audible sound?

Well, that's a question.  Could a quick burst from a laser beam of whatever
power level "punch" a metal surface without punching through it?

> So the laser heats the area up ,what's cooling the
>area down again?

You wouldn't have to hit the same spot with each burst.

> Wouldn't most solids shatter with such a rapid temperature
>change?

I'm still asking if you could "punch" or "jar" a solid with a laser without
cutting through it.

>These and many more questions remain to be answered, if you have a relevant
>URL to look at please post it.


I'm making an educated guess that there are people on this list with a
sufficient scientific background who can answer these questions and provide
relevant information.

- --Clif

P.S.:  Of course, the laser microphone doesn't have to heat up a surface to
that degree, if at all.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:27:17 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: GT tech levels 

Eppu said:

> In which way do CT an T4 use the same TL scale? Looking at FF&S2 it
>seems pretty much identical to FF&S1 in the treatment of TL:s. Also, IIRC
>the TL-8 section of Emperor's Arsemal looks pretty modern day.


Nailing down the equipment is kind of tough though, because Greg Porter did
the stuff in the core rules, and he tweaks TLs a little bit. We do have
GCarriers and air/rafts at TL 8 in these rules as well, while bullpup rifles
are listed in T5 as being TL9. Like I said, this is a difficult concept to
draw a bead on because Greg mucks about with the Tech Levels.

I was just going by the raw TL scale (as given on p 134 of the T4 rule
book).

>  Of course I don't have nearly all T4 material. Does Emperor's vehicles
>for example have air/rafts at TL-8?


No, but the core rules do. look on page 84.

> I agree, that The GURPS TL system is a pretty solid one. Adapting it to
>Traveller takes some serious re-adjustment, however, and much of that
>seems to be heavily taste-dependent.


Hey, isn't everything taste dependent though? ;^)

>  Most technologies thst would break the GTL-12 = TTL-15 comparison have
>been either moved to other TL:s or stated not to exist at all in GT (eg.
>force screens). Starangely, antimatter power seems to have been omitted.
>At least I couldn't find any mention in GT at a quick glance. (Could be
>there, though. Somebody tell me if you find it.)


I noticed the antimatter bug as well, when I started using GURPs vehicles.
Maybe Loren had a change of heart or something? I don't know.

>  Indeed. So my question is, would it really have been impossible to move
>FTL drives from GTL-9 to GTL-8, and make the conversion TTL-9 = GTL-8 ?


Possibly. However, if you use GURPS: Vehicles, the huge jump in efficiency
happens in just the right way for my tastes. Vehicle armors and structures
get extremely light.

Well, hell, the end result is, it works for me :^)


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:12:39 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: An Open Letter to Clif: Please Relax

Look, I read and post on the Traveller Mailing List because I find it
entertaining. I do it for fun. I enjoy the game, and I enjoy speculating on
the future possibilities in the Third Imperium.

You are swiftly sucking some of that enjoyment away for me, personally. From
the posts that I've seen, from others as well.

I treated you with respect, I discussed your point. In short order you ended
up showing me none. You refused to read my posts that you responded to in
any but the briefest, glancing manner. You lowered yourself to personal
insults aimed at me (and others) for no reason whatsoever. You continue to
be quite rude and patronizing to myself and others. In short, you're not
only hurting (or annoying) others, you're making an ass of yourself.

If you keep this up, you're going to find that no one wants to talk to you.
Eventually, you're going to piss off everybody on the list, and then you
will be a non-entity. You've already pissed me off, and that's difficult to
do. I may be hardheaded at times, but I'm supremely tolerant of the views of
others. You have strained that tolerance though.

You have managed to do what nobody else has ever managed to do on this list.
You are written off in my book. Even when you try to make good posts you
lose it within one response cycle. You seem to be completely unable to
handle the fact that not everybody sees your genius and not everyone bows
down and worships your ideas.

I won't be responding to your posts on the list anymore. In fact, to be
honest I won't even read them.

Before you get a martyr complex about this, let me fill you in on a little
secret: You are doing it to yourself. You have insulted a number of people
(including myself) already for merely disagreeing with your posts. In almost
all cases, these people respected you enough to converse with you civilly.
You betrayed that respect and simply had to act like a know-it-all, and post
things merely to piss people off.

I don't want to kick you off the list. I don't want to see you gone from the
list. On the other hand, I just don't want anything to do with you anymore.
In fact, I even stood up on your behalf at one point, telling people how sad
it was that they were sniping you left and right.

My conscience is clear though. I gave you a chance. I tried to discuss
something with you pleasantly and you ruined it. So now I say, goodbye, have
a nice life.

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:29:33 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

I think I saw them bring them to Normandy in a WWII film called "The Long
Day" or "The Longest Day" or something like that.

- --Clif

><<
> Screaming and taunting your foes is great when they can't hit you.  The
> *only* modern force that makes use of such an effect is the Highlander
> Regiments, who still bring pipers to the field. >>
>
>You're kidding me! I thought the pipes were relegated to the drill field
like
>officer's sidearms, dress uniforms, and flags... Are the pipes camoed...:-)
?
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:30:56 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr, in combat.

Hmm, sounds pretty dog-like, to me.

- --Clif

>>Certain threads about Vargr in combat seem to fit into this category. How
>>should we make a Vargr raid seem different from an attack by a squad of
>>human cut-throats, without taking it to a silly extreme?
>
>In ACQ, the morale of Vargr NPCs is heavily affected by the ststus of their
>leader.  If the leader goes beserk, they go beserk.  If the leader breaks
>or is killed, the Vargr under him tend to crumble.


- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:39:51 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Cool surviving Reality

In a message dated 1/8/99 1:07:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, brclif@digital.net
writes:

<< Oh, but "jump drives" and "lanthanum grids" survive reality?
 
 Excuse me, while I bust a gut.
 
 This was a Sci-Fi game, you said?
  >>

Yes, but except for the handwaves of Jump Drive and Anti-gravity; most of the
grognards, and designers try and keep the game "Hard SF", with "realistic"
science... Otherwise, we might as well play Star Wars or Space Opera (though
these are good for adventure nuggets...).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:35:35 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: StarCruiser

Thank you.  I would have liked to have played it.  You know, in combat
flight sims, your targeting systems will sometimes lock on (drawing a box
around the area where the enemy is supposed to be) before you can even see
the enemy as one small pixel, so I don't see why a cockpit view is out of
the question.

- --Clif

>>But the game I am talking about was a cockpit-view 3D combat simulation in
>>space, via modem.  You had to pay so much an hour.  It was based upon
>>StarCruiser or 2300AD...
>>
>>--Clif
>
>There were adds in various computer magazines, many (4-5?) years ago, for a
>"Star Cruiser" based multiplayer game with 3-d Wing Commander-type
>views. If memory serves me well, it was being advertised by the very mpgn
>that hosts this list (in its primitive early incarnation.) It did explictly
>mention being based on "Star Cruiser". (MPGN had several other games based
>on gdw wargame titles.)
>
>However, I never actually heard of anyone *playing* this, even in beta-test
>form - my assumption is that it never got past the level of having
>mock-up art for ads.
>
>As others have noted,since "Star Cruiser" combat takes place at
>million-km ranges, it can't have been a completely faithful implementation.
>
>(Boy, two posts vaguely supportive of Clif in one day...)
>
>bruce
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 09:19:25 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Vargr, in combat.

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
>There's a tendency (especially, I seem to recall among teenage gamers) to
>write in stuff becasue it "sound cool", which upon examination doesn't
>work.
>I refer to inverse laser microphones and stuff like that - a laser capable
>of inducing vibrations (sound) in a metal structure would have to do so by
>hitting it with a great many of those quantised engergy packets in order
>to
>get the metal moving.

My friend the physicist doesn't know anything about "inverse laser
microphones". He did mutter sarcastically that he supposed an "inverse
flashlight" made things darker... and wasn't I playing Traveller, not D&D?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 08:59:14 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

AveNelso@aol.com writes:
>	There is also a new factor in the mix as well, computer games.   When
>RPG's
>are compared to computer games, they seem rather tame (especially a nice,
>nearly stodgy game like Traveller).

I disagree. Computer games leave very little to the imagination, and give
the players far fewer choices than a role-playing game.

Computer games tend to appeal to kids who spend time watching TV rather
than reading books.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:23:22 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

> From: Anson Betts <AFBetts@salcom.co.nz>
> Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
> 
> >Did you forget about the inverse laser microphone that transmits sound
to a
> >solid instead of reads it?
> >
> I thought sound was vibrations? I thought that lasers heated things up,
> which does make the electrons speed up, but with a rapid enough change of
> heat so the target expands and contracts thus moving the atmosphere so as to
> produce audible sound? So the laser heats the area up ,what's cooling the
> area down again? Wouldn't most solids shatter with such a rapid temperature
> change?
> These and many more questions remain to be answered, if you have a relevant
> URL to look at please post it.

I agree with Anson here...  I want some proof, before I agree with the
Clif-ster...

> Cheers,
>  Anson.
> 
> Oook Oook

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:31:27 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

> From: AveNelso@aol.com
> Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion
> 
> 	How about this:    Jump drive doesn't work in a gravitational field. The
> inside of a ship has artificial gravity equal to 1-G, much more than
> experienced at 100 diameters from a world surface.   Thus by using only canon
> information we can conclude a Jump drive will not work inside of another ship
> (in Jump space or not).
> 		Dave Nelson

How about this, I adjust the artificial gravity to a microgravity level
around the ship, then its Jump Drive, in theory could work, if you remember
we have removed the variable of gravity from the equation, not the rest of
the variables...

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:38:03 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Inverse Laser Microphone

Okay!  Now tweak it to provide a continuous stream of short-lived "whum"s of
differing intensity and you can make sound...

- --Clif

>>As for Cliff's idea for a howl-sound-inducing ray gun - Cliff, are you now
>>suggesting that the ability to create a "howl" is a minor ability of a
more
>>complex weapon, much as firing starshell flares is a minor ability
>>of a US Navy Ticonderoga-class Cruiser? A weapon that can make
>>hull plates of a tank or starship resonate in piercing howls needs
>>capabilities just to pull off that stunt that would give it some very
>>magical...er, "sufficiently advanced technology" capabilities.
>
>Though I do not in any way agree with much of what Clif has suggested...the
>general view now of TNE'/T4's magical "Grav focus lasers"[1] is that they
>have a gravity wave travelling with the laser pulse to keep it collimated.
>The wave is too weak to be a weapon itself - about a G or two for a
>millisecond - but could produce a "whumm..." and/or slightly shake a ship
>in a near-miss. You could imagine firing the grav pulse without the
>laser to give people a wake-up call.
>
>Bruce
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:46:37 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?

Can you say, "Duh!"?

OF COURSE we'd like to play it!

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: MindShift Design <mindshift@usa.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 2:00 PM
Subject: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?


>A quick question to everyone on the TML:
>
>How many people would like to see an 'official' licensed play by mail/email
>version of Traveller ? One with all the background of the Traveller
>universe, but with an intuitive command system for performing actions and
>actual roleplaying ? One that would allow thousands of players to play
>together at the same time with and against each other ? One that is played
>regularly and has many levels of complexity so that it makes the game
>enjoyable for new players as well as Traveller veterans ?
>
>Anyone interested ? Feedback ? Thoughts ?
>
>Regards
>
>Jason Paul McCartan
>MindShift Design Game Studios
>Game Developers
> "Altering Perceptions, Creating Worlds"
>
>Home to the PBM/PBeM Developers Webring
>
>email: mindshift@usa.net
>website: http://members.xoom.com/mindshift
>
>ICQ #: 16802661
>AIM: Japem
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 09:41:30 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: GT tech levels

>>>>
>  Has anybody else noticed something funny about these TL conversions? I
>was under the impression, that (Traveller)TL-8 was supposed to be what we
>have today. (GURPS)TL-8 is most certainly not this. GURPS High Tech ends
>at GTL-7, and GURPS Ultra Tech begins at GTL-8.

Actually, when Basic was put out we were condsidered to be at GTL 7.
We are generally considered to be currently in transition from GTL 7 to GTL 8.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu 
>>>>
We are also in the transition between Traveller TL7 and TL8.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:49:52 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ? 

>>One that is played
>> regularly and has many levels of complexity so that it makes the game
>> enjoyable for new players as well as Traveller veterans ?
>>

Yeah.  I want one where I won't have to be in the same system with some of
the guys on this list.  ;)

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 14:59:52 -0700
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for copies of computer games

At 10:25 AM 1/8/99 -0500, you wrote:
>There are absolutely no used software stores in my area (as a matter of
>fact, I have a suspicion that used software stores might be illegal in my
>area). Do you have an address (web or real) that I can get ahold of one of
>these places?

comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.marketplace 

Usually has at least 1-2 copies of MegaTraveller I & II for sale every month.

L8r,
Paul

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 10:53:46 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Last chance for Traveller-I think not!

From:           	AveNelso@aol.com
Date sent:      	Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:55:21 EST

>In a message dated 1/8/99 3:45:34 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>greimann@geocities.com writes:

> Concluding, i must say, that to me, Traveller seems to be on the rise
> again. When T5 comes out, lets be ready to promote Traveller. Lets make
> Traveller a success again, for the greatest resource of Traveller,
> regardless of the creed or System, is us, the fans. 
> Volker >>

>Right On!   I'm really looking forward to seeing some T5 stuff.  has anyone
>seen any of the play test files?   I'd really like to get some demo games
>going at a local extremely-gamer friendly store here in North VA, but haven't
>seen any of the files.  Is any of the material going to be compatable with T4
>data? (well, with Emp's arsenal anyway, I kind of lked that one).

Write to Marc (farfutures@aol.com) nicely and he'll probably send you the files. 
I don't know for sure, but from what I've seen so far T5 is most certainly an 
evolved verion of T4.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 7: KARL
More Teutonic than the English Charles, Karls can often be found
advising US Presidents on the underutilisation of nuclear weapons
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1385
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, January 8 1999      Volume 1998 : Number 1386



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics 
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Inverse Laser Microphone
Re: An Open Letter to Clif: Please Relax
Inverse Laser Microphone
GT tech levels vs Ancient Tech and TL penalties
Inverse Laser Microphone
Re: GT tech levels vs Ancient Tech and TL penalties
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: jumpspace recursion 
Re: jumpspace recursion 
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics 
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: StarCruiser
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: Maps?
Re: ClarisDraw Users
Re: ClarisDraw Users

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:54:11 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics 

If it is argument FOR the originally described Vargr method, then it is ME.

If it is argument AGAINST, it is everyone else.

First you want me to clip everything originally said and now you want me to
keep it and source it, too?

Just follow the greater than signs, since we are all supposed to be able to
REMEMBER who send what in all previous posts.

At 150 posts/day, I don't have time to "source" the quotes, especially when
it seems to be me against the list.

- --Clif

>Please *source* your quotes, then we can know who's on each side of the
>flamefest.
>
>Dom
>
>------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
>"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
>that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
>You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
>'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
>MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:54:23 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

Seth Kimmel:

>Sounds like an out of control live action Gothic Vampire game....:-)
>Seriously, do you have a copy of the story(s)?


I don't have a copy of it, but I can give you the lowdown, basically this
sick bastard worked at his father's clothing store. He had a peephole built
into the changing booths and everything.

So one day, he's alone at the shop with a girl and her young baby, and he
rapes and kills the mother and he kills the baby. He goes and dumps their
bodies off and then goes to a nightclub later on.

Of course, it was a gothic nightclub, one that I as well frequented during
that same time period.

First, the media in countless stories pointed out how he "thought he was a
vampire." Later on, in the trial, he never mentioned anything like this.
Then the next week, there are news reports about the dangers of gothic music
on your children! They beat that one long after it was dead. So then, one of
the investigators leaks to the press that they found "Dungeons & Dragons"
books and "Vampire: The Masquerade." Man, the news people went _crazy_ over
this one! They vehemently went after this angle for about a week, and then
the whole thing died down.

As it turns out, the guy was just deranged, perverted and lonely, like the
many deranged perverted and lonely people that decide to take someone else's
life for no reason each year.

Of course, had he been a star quarterback for his local football team, we
wouldn't have heard quite the same line they handed us here in this area.
"Investigators discovered that Caleb Fairley, the accused killer of Lisa and
Devon Manderach was a star quarterback on a football team. Football... where
players dress up in armor, or 'pads' and attempt to knock each other down to
gain possession of a ball, originally made of the hide of a pig. Some
concerned groups believe football is the cause behind countless suicides
each year."

I digress, I'm not trying to badmouth football. The whole thing just leaves
a bad taste in my mouth. I was just trying to point out how ludicrous the
kinds of things they said were.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:58:34 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Inverse Laser Microphone

Even with a "normal" laser, wouldn't puncturing a hole in a spacecraft with
inside pressure cause the hole to "fire" like a retro rocket?

- --Clif


>>>>>
>Though I do not in any way agree with much of what Clif has suggested...the
>general view now of TNE'/T4's magical "Grav focus lasers"[1] is that they
>have a gravity wave travelling with the laser pulse to keep it collimated.
>The wave is too weak to be a weapon itself - about a G or two for a
>millisecond - but could produce a "whumm..." and/or slightly shake a ship
>in a near-miss. You could imagine firing the grav pulse without the
>laser to give people a wake-up call.
>
>Bruce
>>>>>
>I like this!  This provides the cinematic feel that Real World (tm) lasers
don't give (shaking the ship when it receives a hit from an energy weapon).
Bruce's reading of the material differs from mine (I had the impression that
the gravity focusing happened in the weapon itself), but I might be
persuaded to make the 'feel' of space combat more familiar to those who grew
up on Star Wars and Star Trek.
>- Joseph
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 17:00:52 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: An Open Letter to Clif: Please Relax

Boy you sure can take up bandwidth extending your concern, can't you?

Wonder why you would go to the trouble?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 17:03:53 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Inverse Laser Microphone

You mean you actually asked your friend about an "inverse laser microphone"?

There is no such thing.  It was an attempt to explain my idea.

Any embarassment you suffered was your own fault, I'm afraid.

- --Clif

>My friend the physicist doesn't know anything about "inverse laser
>microphones". He did mutter sarcastically that he supposed an "inverse
>flashlight" made things darker... and wasn't I playing Traveller, not D&D?
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:02:14 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: GT tech levels vs Ancient Tech and TL penalties

One thing that irks me about the GT tech levels (it is actually a point 
about the GURPS TL system), is that Technical Maximum Imperium 
is GTL13 and TTL15.

Now assuming that the Ancients are GTL14-16, according to 
GURPS rules, an engineer with Engineering(some speciality) TL13 
would be able to figure out what this Ancient Tech does on a -5, -10, 
- -15 respectively (after that he is lost) ... assuming that the ancients 
are this low on the Tech scale and you follow the rules.  

I have seen GURPS Engineers with skills that could solve the first 
one with some moderate trouble and second with some heavy 
trouble ... but the beauty of Ancient Tech is - "You don't know how it 
works ... it just does.  You want to push that button?"

Of course, if you play in T4, it isn't a problem because the highest is 
GTL10.

How are you guys who are playing it in 1100+ handling this?


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 17:05:52 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Inverse Laser Microphone

WHAT PROOF?  I'm posing a theory!

There is no proof because it doesn't exist!

- --Clif
>
>I agree with Anson here...  I want some proof, before I agree with the
>Clif-ster...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:16:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GT tech levels vs Ancient Tech and TL penalties

Bont writes:
> One thing that irks me about the GT tech levels (it is actually a point 
> about the GURPS TL system), is that Technical Maximum Imperium 
> is GTL13 and TTL15.
Actually, its GTL 12.
> 
> Now assuming that the Ancients are GTL14-16, according to 
> GURPS rules, an engineer with Engineering(some speciality) TL13 
> would be able to figure out what this Ancient Tech does on a -5, -10, 
> -15 respectively (after that he is lost) ... assuming that the ancients 
> are this low on the Tech scale and you follow the rules. 

Actually, that's not true.  The -5/-10/-15 modifiers are for _any_
engineering/mechanics roll related to the item, and are cumulative with any
other penalties.  As reverse-engineering an item at your _own_ tech level is
frequently not a zero penalty, this gets pretty prohibitive for higher tech
items.  The base penalties probably mostly apply to trying to use the item, not
to understanding it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 17:17:45 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

>I disagree. Computer games leave very little to the imagination, and give
>the players far fewer choices than a role-playing game.


Yes, but don't forget that all you need to do is buy (or pirate) a game and
you're ready to go. You don't need anyone else, and you don't need to pay
"maintenance costs" to keep a campaign going. A GM has to put time into a
game. Good GMs are hard to find (I've played tabletop RPGs that have less
options than crude computer games), and a lot of younger kids don't have a
place to "hang out" and play a tabletop RPG. Hell, when I was very young, we
had to play D&D on the front steps of our houses (two slabs of marble, four
feet or so wide)!

>Computer games tend to appeal to kids who spend time watching TV rather
>than reading books.


Not always, but the immediacy is compelling. Just boot up the computer,
bring up the start menu and *whoosh*, the player's off defending his base
from the Zergs, or blasting the menacing, cybernetic Stroggs with his trusty
combat shotgun. Nowadays, with the ready availability of the internet there
are literally tens of thousands of opponents (or in some cases, allies) just
a mouse click away.

In some out of the way areas, it's the only way to play _any_ sort of game
with other people.

Keep in mind, as well, that prowess plays a major factor as well. With the
exception of universally denounced cheaters, it takes at least a modicum of
skill to play. The GM doesn't fudge the game for a good story. With all the
mechanics in the hands of a machine, there's no room for error. There are
plenty of kids who pride themselves at being good at these games. In some
cases, they see other kids, just a few years older, making _money_ on the
professional gaming circuit!

Roleplaying games have given me experiences that computer games can't, while
computer games have given me experiences that roleplaying games can't. With
LAN-parties so prevalent these days, dedicated computer game fans can even
joke and parlay with their friends _in person_ while competing against each
other.

I'm very active in both circles, so I thought it might be fair to give a
somewhat balanced viewpoint. I have a map on Activision's upcoming
"Extremities" addon pack for Quake2, and I've written a couple of tutorials
on mapmaking and customizing controls (key binding) and met some fine people
doing it. The funny thing is that there are plenty of parallels between the
computer game market and the roleplaying market.

The end result is still the same, however. Computer games have taken a huge
chunk out of the potential RPG market. It's only going to get worse, too.
Especially if "Baldur's Gate" is any indication.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:49:15 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion 

> From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@glasscity.net>
> Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion 
> 
> > > They go to a magical mystical place where impossible wonders are
reality.
> >  Such as, a balanced budget, honest politicians, lawyers who practice
for
> > the sake of law, and women aren't 30% plastic implants.
> > 
> > Don't tell me, they go to the Mid-West..
> Or Iowa...

Ok...

> Closest place to Hell you can find, by my reckoning...

Only if you are not from Iowa..  *weg*

> Keven

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:49:15 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion 

> From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@glasscity.net>
> Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion 
> 
> > > They go to a magical mystical place where impossible wonders are
reality.
> >  Such as, a balanced budget, honest politicians, lawyers who practice
for
> > the sake of law, and women aren't 30% plastic implants.
> > 
> > Don't tell me, they go to the Mid-West..
> Or Iowa...

Ok...

> Closest place to Hell you can find, by my reckoning...

Only if you are not from Iowa..  *weg*

> Keven

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:06:52 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics 

> From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@glasscity.net>
> Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics 
> 
> > >Serious misuse of snipers.  If you're gonna drop anybody into a
'ville,
> > you'll
> > >drop regular combat riflemen.
> > It is a comparison.  I threw in the grav belts for swift descent.  The
> > sniper weapons are there for the first strike.
> You don't understand the difference in mindsets between a sniper and a
line 
> trooper.  Sniping is a terror tactic most effectively used when nobody
*else* 
> is shooting off the guns & banging the bombs.

I would like to say as a Recon Specialist (MOS 0311) that the use of a
sniper as a line trooper is a waste of years & years of training...  Being
a sniper is more that shooting people in the head from 500 yards away... 
It is an art & a science..  Snipers have to be able to hit the target each
& every time they are called upon to hit it...  Also, I have to say this, I
would not want a sniper next to me when the enemy rush my foxhole...  They,
tend to take their time to make a good shot...

> > >You still don't want *snipers* to do this.  You'd use regular line troops.
> > A sniper is just a soldier who has been trained to snipe and has the right
> > weapon and optics.  Some of those V.C. snipers probably weren't even
> > trained, unless it was on-the-job training.
> Who was talking VC?  You sound like one of those idiots who saw one too many 
> SEAL movies or who believes that *everything* in that John Wayne flick about 
> the Special Forces was 100% dead on target.  It wasn't even *close*.

I wonder if he thinks "Rambo" is a Docudrama...  Nothing can get close to
real combat...  Nothing at all...
 
> > >> >But that's not what they were designed for.  Which is what you seem to
> > be
> > >> >arguing.  Artillery is scary when it's hitting you.  On the other ridge,
> > >> >it's piss-poor fireworks.  On the enemy's ridge, it's a spectator sport.
> > >> Even handgrenades have a very haunting whump sound when detonating off in
> > >> the distance.
> > >So what?  If they're not going off in my face, they're not my problem at
> > the
> > >moment, they're *somebody else's*.  The only time I worry about grenades is
> > >when somebody's throwing them at me.  At somebody else, well, tough luck,
> > >Charley, but that's the way it goes...
> > That's more easily said on paper, and you don't sound like the type who is
> > honest enough to express what is going on in his head, at the expense of his
> > "macho" image.
> Wanna know what goes on inside somebody's head when they're in combat?  Simple 
> enough to say.  You wanna stay *alive*.  The only things you'll pay attention 
> to is what's happening right in front of you.  What's happening someplace else 
> is *NOT YOUR PROBLEM*, and if you try to do anything about something that's 
> *NOT YOUR PROBLEM*, you get a ride back to The World in a body bag.  How do I 
> know this?  I've *BEEN* there.  Nothing 'macho' to it.  Just pure survival.

Amen brother, with me you are preaching to the choir...  I have been in
combat...  I have been shot at by people who did not know my name or even
care who I was...  I have done the same...  War is not pretty, to
paraphrase a Great, Great, Great Man...  "War is hell, War is not
honorable, War is not pretty, there is no glory in War - only death...  War
is the ultimate gutter fight...  War is sitting in mud for days on end
while you wait for an enemy you have never seen attack you from the
shadows...  War is eating shit on a shingle...  War is blood, pain, tears,
& death...  My brother, I do not like War, but sometimes, just sometimes,
War is better than peace, where peace is giving away that which you so
dearly love..."

> Now, if hearing artillery hitting on a ridge 3 klicks out scares the hell

> outta you, my advice is to stay the hell outta uniform and let the pros
handle 
> it.

Hell, to me it is music to my ears...  The sound of Mr Art Illery landing 3
clicks away means that is not falling on my mother's baby boy, me...  And
the day that I went into the Marine Corps, my momma told me something I
will never forget..  "Boy, if you get yourself killed, I will kick your
ass..."

> Keven

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:28:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

> Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:03:27 -0500
> From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
> 
> >Clif, one of the first lessons at the Infantry School is that standing out
> >is bad.  I was a sniper.
> 
> Okay, now take a pack of snipers who howl from the shadows and then quickly
> descend with grav belts upon a village of weak, unarmed enemy sympathizers.
> That's the vargr strategy I'm describing.

No, it wasn't.  You were asserting the "howl-then-attack" model as a
military strategy, used during open combat with more or less equivalent
adversaries.  What you describe above is not so much a combat scenario as
a "psy op," an intimidation exercise.  You don't want to kill many of the
villagers; you want to terrify them, perhaps kill one or two as examples,
then leave.  Now they'll be far less effective to the enemy, knowing that
it could happen again any time, and not wanting to bring it down upon
themselves again.

Beating your chest and howling works really well as an intimidation
strategy.  It makes no sense when your objective is to kill quickly,
efficiently, and without quarter.  As Douglas noted, wolves hunt silently.
So do humans, for that matter.  And recall the classic scene from _2001_
when Moon Watcher's band arrived at the creek not to posture, but to kill.
The eeriest aspect of the scene was that MW's band remained entirely
silent while the opponents screamed and waved their arms.  (Yes, I know
it's a movie, but it captures perfectly what we're discussing, and I find
it utterly realistic.)

The one case where such posturing makes sense is when you are utterly
cerain of victory, but hope to goad your opponents into surrender or
withdrawal in order to avoid casualties to your own or the other side.  An
excellent if uncomfortable example is Waco, where the sound/light assault
was maintained for many weeks in order to wear down resistance and
resolve.  The ATF obviously could have stormed the compound on day 1, but,
having absolute tactical control, they opted to try for a surrender. 

> >I have, three times.  When did we get into space?  You seem to be wavering
> >back and forth to whatever position best supports your odd theory.  In
> >space, I simply turn off my radio.  No howl.
> 
> Did you forget about the inverse laser microphone that transmits sound to a
> solid instead of reads it?

Might work, actually.  But I'd guess any range you could rattle the ship
enough to make a "howl" rather than a "what's that tinny whining sound?"
at, you could actually damage the ship with the same laser.

> >And warn the victims that they were locked?  Why?  We are talking about an
> >intelligent race.
> 
> Intelligent races USE psychological warfare!

This is the key question:  When does the value gained by intimidation
become less than the value lost through throwing away surprise?  Douglas
and I agree that, in almost all modern combat, surprise is infinitely more
valuable than intimidation.  In pre-gunpowder combat, a battle involved
convincing a great many men to stand fast or advance despite having many,
many other men with sharp objects approaching them.  Here, morale was a
primary concern, and had to be maintained over long minutes in a single
engagement, and many hours during a battle.  Conversely, the tempo of
modern combat is such that any target in view can be engaged, more or
less, and engagements tend to end one way or another in one or two
minutes.  Hence the stress on quick, reflex-level reactions to combat
situations; there's no time for deliberation.  In this sort of battle,
getting the first shot in can win the engagement, period.  That's why
surprise is so much more important.  After all, a Roman legion *never* had
tactical surprise.  That's why they developed the whole shield-banging
thing; if you can't have surprise, might as well intimidate.

> >Read up on Patton's early battles against Rommel.  Patton got ahold of
> >Rommel's book, "The Tank in the Attack", and based his defenses on what he
> >learned about Rommel's thought processes.  Kicked Nazi butt.
> 
> So the Vilani can kick some Vargr butt...

At first.  Rommel realized that Patton could predict him, and changed his
strategy and tactics.  The Vargr would presumably do the same.

- -- 
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      "The hills were burning, and the wind was raging; and the
       clock struck midnight in the Garden of Allah."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:27:49 +1300
From: "Anson Betts" <AFBetts@salcom.co.nz>
Subject: Re: StarCruiser

- -----Original Message-----
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: StarCruiser


>"Anson Betts" <AFBetts@salcom.co.nz> wrote:
>
>>Space combat in 2300 AD is at ranges where a cockpit view would show
>>nothing. According to the directors guide it use a map of hexes each 600
000
>>km in diameter. Ain't no point having a cockpit view at those sort of
>>ranges. I haven't seen star cruiser but I wouldn't expect it to be a
>>dogfight kind of system.
>
>Think of it as an uncomplicated Brilliant Lances.
>
>Dom
>
Ahhh! That I understand :) Brilliant Lances does go a bit over the top for
my tastes.

Cheers,
 Anson.

Oook Oook

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 14:31:44 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

>Oh, that must be the parallel universe to my mystical place where beautiful
>women put out because they are feeling charitable.  ;)
>
>--Clif
>
OUCH!!
Clif,
man! I'm not sure to be impressed with your wit, or feel sorry for your 
traveller characters...
;)
Roger Barr

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 20:32:45 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Maps?

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>There was an advertising poster that shows most of the known universe.
>Those of us that own them aren't about to give them up. :-)

Mine (the duplicate) is laminated. It's around A2 size and goes very well
with the A2 Spinward Marches from the same time.  (For US viewers, GURPS
Traveller is approx A4, A3 is double that, A2 is double A3, LWB are A5).

My copy came  with the Megatraveller advertising poster (WBH one), Spinward
Marches, Rebellion Sourcebook, Exotic Atmospheres, Alien Handout and
History of the Ziru Sirka which came (free!!!) with the boxed 1st Ed
Imperium I bought off Marc Miller 12 months ago... ;-)

Marc has a website he recently launched with SFRPGs on it to buy. I think
he posted the URL here?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 20:43:22 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: ClarisDraw Users

"Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com> wrote:

Dom>> Can anyone out there convert ClarisDraw (Mac) files to either
Illustrator 7
>> (or less) or Claris/Appleworks 3, 4 or 5 (Mac)?
>>
>> (I need to convert Zane Healey's Deck Plan symbols.)
>>
>
>Hmmm, you might try asking Zane Healy, he might be able to do it.  Oh, wait
>a minute, that's me isn't it :^)  I might be able to convert them to either
>Illustrator 5.5, or ClarisWorks 4.0 depending on how well they can be cut
>and pasted.  Drop me a line and let me know exactly what you're looking for.

Either would do - I have CW5 and AI7 so can read them no problem. Would
prefer AI5.5 though...

Bruce Johnson sent me a PICT, but it misaligns slightly in both. If you can
get a spot on one I'd appreciate it (cos I'm lazy).

>Glad to see some people find those useful.

I'll probably look use then for some scenarion deckplans....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 20:47:08 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: ClarisDraw Users

 "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>

>you could email them to me and I could try.
>Not sure what version of CW I have, think it is 4.0

If it calls itself ClarisWorks Office or Appleworks it's 5. Usually says on
the splashscreen while loading...

I've got a PICT and Zane has offered to try and convert them - will let you
know if I get a workable copy.

Dom (depressed because his wife is pestering him to buy her a Purple iMac.
She doesn't care it's a 266 G3 machine and about 5 times faster than his
603ev 200, she just cares that it's purple and matches her study. <sigh>)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1386
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, January 8 1999      Volume 1998 : Number 1387



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: StarCruiser
Re: Grav Focus Lasers
Re: Inverse Laser Microphone
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: jumpspace recursion 
Re: Vargrs and psychological warfare
24 Hour Policy
Solar System Formation Article
RE: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
RE: Last chance for Traveller-I think not!
Re: jumpspace recursion 
RE: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: jumpspace recursion
Sniper! (Was: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics)
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: GT tech levels
Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ? 
Re: Portable Holes
Ihatei Motivations

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:37:26 +1300
From: "Anson Betts" <AFBetts@salcom.co.nz>
Subject: Re: StarCruiser

>Look, I'm talking about a Computer Simulation game that you could play via
>modem for so much money an hour.  It ALREADY existed and was based on
>StarCruiser or 2300AD.  I'm asking people who KNOW what I'm talking about
to
>give me more info.  Evidently, no one on this list saw it or played it.  It
>enabled you to LOOK at nearby ships with a cockpit view.  If you don't like
>it, find out who I'm talking about and bitch to THEM!  It's not my problem!


I am merely pointing out that it is unlikley to be based on 2300, not
btiching, nor complaining for in truth I cannot judge that which I haven't
seen.

>Since you don't know, either, keep your grimy nose OUT!


How can you judge my nose from my writing, site unseen. I could scan it and
send the picture to you if you like.

Cheers,
 Anson.

Oook Oook

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:39:03 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Grav Focus Lasers

>>the
>>general view now of TNE'/T4's magical "Grav focus lasers"[1] is that they
>>have a gravity wave travelling with the laser pulse to keep it collimated.
>The wave is too weak to be a weapon itself - about a G or two for a 
>>millisecond

>I like this!  This provides the cinematic feel that Real World (tm) lasers don't
> give (shaking the ship when it receives a hit from an energy weapon).  Bruce's 
>reading of the material differs from mine (I had the impression that the gravity
> focusing happened in the weapon itself)

The problem with doing the grav focusing in the weapon is that the only way to
get the ranges specified is to use gravity to make a really big lens - tens
of meters across. That means the (smaller) beam must exit the physical laser
aperture in a diverging cone, get "caught" by the grav lens and bent into
a collimated or slowly converging beam. The problem with *that* is that it
requires gravitational fields in the millions of G's. If, on the other hand,
the grav focus is a pulse travelling along with the laser pulse, it only
has to be continuously bending it very gently,s o you can get by with
fields of a G or so - within known Traveller capabilities. Plus it allows
for cool sound effects.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:45:00 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Inverse Laser Microphone

> From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
> Subject: Inverse Laser Microphone
> 
> WHAT PROOF?  I'm posing a theory!

Good, I am glad you understand this...  If you build a laser able to create
a sound of a howling dog in a target ship, so that everyone can hear you
aboard that ship...  Would it not mean that the entire ship is vibrating? 
If you could build a laser like that, why not destroy the ship?  Lets see a
laser large & powerful enough to do that should be able to also destroy the
ship in question...

Now, I can see a Vargr ship sending out a radio signal with a howl in it,
as part of its IFF...  Letting people know that it is a Vargr ship, but I
cannot see an Inverse Laser Microphone...

> There is no proof because it doesn't exist!

Sorta like your understanding of the Real World?

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:34:41 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

> From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
> Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
> 
> I think I saw them bring them to Normandy in a WWII film called "The Long
> Day" or "The Longest Day" or something like that.
> 
> --Clif

Now, he is siting proof from a movie...  What next?  Maybe something that
Asimov wrote?  Like all robots have imbedded intheir brains his three laws
of robotics?

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:37:27 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion 

> How about this, I adjust the artificial gravity to a microgravity level
> around the ship, then its Jump Drive, in theory could work, if you remember
> we have removed the variable of gravity from the equation, not the rest of
> the variables...

It doesn't whack out the mass, though.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 14:42:47 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Vargrs and psychological warfare

>
>Vargr may have Psychological Warfare units. As Vargr are scientifically
>capable sentient beings, I believe their Psychological Warfare 
techniques 
>will be oriented towards what their enemies are vulnerable to, rather 
than 
>how Terran canines may have behaved thousands of years ago.
>
>Walt Smith
>


Well spoken Walt!
(Can this arguement possibly be coming to an end?)
Roger Barr

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:42:21 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: 24 Hour Policy

My Friends and Acquaintances on the TML,

In addition to attempting to develop and maintain an active Traveller 
existence, I sometimes participate other games.  Some of them are 
live-action, and two of them have international support.  While I 
won't mention any names, one of them has an extensive array of 
mailing lists that supports its varied genres.

On these lists, just like the TML, the participants occasionally have 
conflicts.  They used to have a lot more, as people reacted before 
cooling down from misunderstandings.  Thus, they've enforced an email 
policy that I think would serve us in good stead here.

The 24 Hour Policy:

If you read an email that upsets you, to the point where you feel the 
need to respond in an aggressive, assertive or otherwise 
confrontational fashion, wait!  Wait for 24 hours, re-read the post, 
postulate your response, and answer in a calm, civilized fashion.

In retrospect, we often discover that the original intent of the 
message was not how we took it.  Even if it is, why give someone the 
satisfaction of knowing that they've upset us.  Hey, discuss it 
privately with a friend or other supportive person, but take the 24 
hours wait before responding to that person.  It works.

Even if you feel the person you're conversing with is neither calm 
nor civilized, wait 24 hours before responding.

Even if you (or the other person) have grown up using emotional 
attacks to undermine another's argument when logic just doesn't work, 
(you know, the old bait-and-switch between logic and emotion to 
break another person's argument), wait 24 hours before responding.

Even if the person has insulted your family, your lineage, your 
country, your religious beliefs, your race, your gender, your sexual 
orientation, your favorite conspiracy theories, whatever, wait 24 
hours before responding.

And if you can't wait 24 hours before responding, then that is 
especially when you _need_ to wait 24 hours before responding.

And if that doesn't work, send it via personal email and take it off 
the list.  And even then, it's still better to wait 24 hours before 
responding.

It's a very valid email etiquette rule that will make our list much 
more pleasant to subscribe to.  In these days where we are trying to 
attract more people to the game, be aware that our actions can also 
chase them away.  Even if "the other guy" is "rocking the boat," none 
of us have to support it by replying in kind.  And if we can wait 24 
hours, at least the response will be more well thought out and 
appropriate to the situation at hand.

So please, please consider your actions and wait 24 hours before 
responding to emails that upset you or make you feel attacked.  
Usually, you'll find that the person didn't mean it the way it 
sounds, or that the person is deliberately trying to provoke a fight 
to lead you into making yourself look like a fool.  Do you want to 
prove him right or wrong?  Then wait 24 hours.

I know I've over-emphasized it, but normally calm people on the list 
have been agitated lately, and that's not cool.  I don't want to 
unsubscribe, but I bet you a number of our lurkers already have.  Who 
knows what talent we may have already lost?

If you have any comments, constructive or destructive, I welcome 
them.  I would prefer they be sent to me via private mail, so as not 
to waste bandwidth.

Thank you for your time.  I apologize if anyone feels that I have 
wasted their time, and return you to your normal Traveller threads, 
already in progress....

ObTrav:  It's a suggestion for TML list etiquette.  Thanks.

In Service,
Jason
============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer I
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 17:46:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Solar System Formation Article

Greetings.  

Just thought I'd point out an interesting article in a recent "Nature" 
(10 Dec, vol. 396, issue 6711, pg. 513).  It regards models of solar
system formation based on the (admittedly meager) data available on
extra-solar planets.  The most interesting finding, IMO, is that placement
of planets of varying sizes seems to be highly random and chaotic, with
the only constraint being that planets be "not too close" to one-another. 
It certainly implies that the Titius-Bode relation is just a coincidence. 
Mind you, even the authors admit that there are too many unknowns in the
physics of the matter for this to be considered more than a first step in
understanding such things.

Another thing I found interesting was their noting that gas-giant cores,
before they acquire their huge atmospheres, would have masses in the 5 to
20 earths range.  Does this imply that young systems might have giant
rockball worlds with 5 to 20 gs of surface gravity?  What would such a
world be like?  Could life evolve there if for some reason no large
crushing atmosphere was developed?  What would it be like?  Would it have
a hope in hell of developing space travel?

Charles.

- -----
"Can anything truly meaningful be said in just a single line? Maybe, maybe
not." 
Charles Collin \\ McGill Psychology \\ http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl
Ph: (514) 398-6151 \\ FAX: (514) 398-4896 \\  charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:44:56 -0000
From: "MindShift Design" <mindshift@usa.net>
Subject: RE: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?

> Can you say, "Duh!"?
>
> OF COURSE we'd like to play it!

I guess that most people would, but I'm looking for rough numbers as well as
a list of elements Traveller players would look for in a game like that
before moving to the next stage.

Hell, I want to play it !

<g>

Regards

Jason Paul McCartan
MindShift Design Game Studios
Game Developers
 "Altering Perceptions, Creating Worlds"

Home to the PBM/PBeM Developers Webring

email: mindshift@usa.net
website: http://members.xoom.com/mindshift

ICQ #: 16802661
AIM: Japem

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 14:46:14 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

>
>What, do you think most parents pay attention to what it is that their 
kids
>are doing, exactly? If they already think that "Dungeons and Dragons" 
is
>bad, then Traveller will be just as bad.
>
>Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )


Not necessarily. I got several people off my back when I was facing all 
of that pressure by switching to another "less mystical" game, one that 
didn't even use all the magical stuff:Traveller.
When those who wanted to criticize the group looked at the rules, they 
saw spaceships, not demons. I never heard any more complaints.
Roger Barr

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:46:47 -0000
From: "MindShift Design" <mindshift@usa.net>
Subject: RE: Last chance for Traveller-I think not!

When I last spoke to Marc, he mentioned that although he was working hard on
T5, there was still a bit of work to be done.

I have a feeling that Traveller isn't going to die. Not with plenty of
devoted players as well as support from 3rd party product developers such as
Holistic Design and other companies.

Watch this space ...

Regards

Jason Paul McCartan
MindShift Design Game Studios
Game Developers
 "Altering Perceptions, Creating Worlds"

Home to the PBM/PBeM Developers Webring

email: mindshift@usa.net
website: http://members.xoom.com/mindshift

ICQ #: 16802661
AIM: Japem

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:45:20 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion 

> > From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@glasscity.net>
> > Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion 
> > 
> > > > They go to a magical mystical place where impossible wonders are
> reality.
> > >  Such as, a balanced budget, honest politicians, lawyers who practice
> for
> > > the sake of law, and women aren't 30% plastic implants.
> > > 
> > > Don't tell me, they go to the Mid-West..
> > Or Iowa...
> 
> Ok...
> 
> > Closest place to Hell you can find, by my reckoning...
> 
> Only if you are not from Iowa..  *weg*

For *THOSE* people, there's always Cleveland.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:52:57 -0000
From: "MindShift Design" <mindshift@usa.net>
Subject: RE: Traveller's Last Chance?

> In some out of the way areas, it's the only way to play _any_ sort of game
> with other people.

Keep in mind the PBM/PBeM market where post and email are a great way for
players to play together even out of the way. Mind you, I might be biased
<g>.

> The end result is still the same, however. Computer games have
> taken a huge
> chunk out of the potential RPG market. It's only going to get worse, too.
> Especially if "Baldur's Gate" is any indication.


<BLATANT PLUG>
We've got a wide range of products in development that aim to remedy this
and actually put the Role Play back into RPG Games. This is all based around
a roleplaying engine that generates storytelling prose as narrative and
dialogue interaction between characters using our proprietary EDGE system.
The game is even better than some GMs I know and have played with over the
years. It's taken two years to get into production but bridges PBM and RPG
games, taking storytelling and multi-player interaction to a new level.
</BLATANT PLUG>

Regards

Jason Paul McCartan
MindShift Design Game Studios
Game Developers
 "Altering Perceptions, Creating Worlds"

Home to the PBM/PBeM Developers Webring

email: mindshift@usa.net
website: http://members.xoom.com/mindshift

ICQ #: 16802661
AIM: Japem

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:23:42 +0000
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

In message <199901072230.OAA18144@law-f120.hotmail.com>, Roger Barr
<rogerbarr@hotmail.com> writes
>IMTU, I'd warn the intrepid astrogator that this move has never been 
>recorded in the 1k+ years of Imperial Interstellar Exploration History. 
>If they really want to try it I'd say "Roll 2d6 and pray."
>(NO skill will help this one!)
>2=both ships are destroyed in an incredible display of jumpspace 
>pyrotechnics.
>7=ship b is thrown out of jumpspace early (misjump), ship a never 
>finished the shift into hyperspace.
>12=one serious misjump to God only knows where (but they'd be alive...)

Heads, you succeed in jumping, tails the universe ceases to exist...
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:20:19 +0000
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

In message <36952656.3947215C@GLJA.com>, Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
writes
>Anyone read Frederick Pohl's Gateway? I'd probably play it like that. You count
>up how much food you have, and divide by two. If you haven't emerged from jump
>space by then, you start drawing lots for suicides.

Surely an arm or leg here and there at the start?  A full size body
(with careful carving) should feed about 120 people.
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:01:11 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Sniper! (Was: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics)

dberry@hooked.net wrote:
> 
> At 01:08 PM 1/8/99 -0500, you wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> >A sniper is just a soldier who has been trained to snipe and has the right
> >weapon and optics.  Some of those V.C. snipers probably weren't even
> >trained, unless it was on-the-job training.
> 
> Gee, thanks.  There is a lot more to sniping than being a shooter.  Ever
> take eight hours to crawl fifty feet?  Ever have to do it twice?  Snipers
> are specialists in both shooting and recon.  The USMC and Army treat
> snipers differently, but in both services we are not considered overly
> expendable.
> 
On a related note:

In GDW's Twilight: 2000 (version 2.2), the requirements to be a Marine
sniper are more exclusive (Strength+Agility+Constitution of 19+) than
those for Marine Force Recon (Strength+Agility+Constitution of 17+), US
Army Rangers (Strength+Agility+Constitution of 17+), or US Army Special
Forces (Strength+Agility+Constitution of 18+).

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:05:40 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

In a message dated 1/8/99 4:43:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca writes:

<< 
 I disagree. Computer games leave very little to the imagination, and give
 the players far fewer choices than a role-playing game.
 
 Computer games tend to appeal to kids who spend time watching TV rather
 than reading books.
  >>
	I expressed myself rather badly.  What I meant is that parents are less
likely to complain about RPGs nowadays for "moral"  reasons simply because
there is so much graphically violent computer game material out there now--in
this sense RPG's are  "morally tame"  or "morally stodgy" in comparison.   I
myself would much rather play a FtF RPG than stare at a computer game, and I
imagine that there is a portion of "kids today" who might feel the same.
			Dave Nelson 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:05:29 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

>Not necessarily. I got several people off my back when I was facing all
>of that pressure by switching to another "less mystical" game, one that
>didn't even use all the magical stuff:Traveller.
>When those who wanted to criticize the group looked at the rules, they
>saw spaceships, not demons. I never heard any more complaints.


Didn't work for me. As I said, I only lost a single player to the hysteria
in my youth, and we played Gamma World.

As for high school, we weren't allowed to have _any_ sort of wargaming or
roleplaying club. No Battletech, no Avalon Hill Games, not even Axis &
Allies. When I took it up with the principal, he stated that wargames and
roleplaying games were directly linked to teenage suicide.

Finally, at work, it was the very fact that I was a roleplayer that was
negative, not what roleplaying game I played. In this case, I didn't put up
with it, and even had a couple of sessions with a girl from my workplace and
a couple of her friends...

I can only judge as far as I've experienced I guess :^)


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 01:16:06 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: GT tech levels

On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Joseph Kimball wrote:

> Actually, when Basic was put out we were condsidered to be at GTL 7.
> We are generally considered to be currently in transition from GTL 7 to GTL 8.

> >>>>
> We are also in the transition between Traveller TL7 and TL8.

  I'd rather say we're in transition between Traveller TL8 and TL9. At
least our current computer technology seems to be way beyond what any
Traveller edition has given for TL8. Medical and genetic tech seems to be
racing ahead also. (Then again this might all just be the impetuousness of
us Solomani compared to the cautious Vilani mindset, that seems to
dominate the Imperium.)

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:02:32 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ? 

From: Clif 
> Yeah.  I want one where I won't have to be in the same system with some
of
> the guys on this list.  ;)

Nah.  Just blow them up. ;)

Actually this reminds me of a thought I had a month or so ago:  the
honourable way for Traveller players to sort out their differences is
called Trillion Credit Squadron.

Shame we've got so many different game systems!

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:16:23 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Portable Holes

Clif wrote:
> 
> There was a Grenadier boxed set of female miniatures.  One was a fighter
> with a 2-handed sword.  She had some kind of hat with a dragon head on it.
> I explained this by giving her a pseudo-dragon for a pet and having a
> portable hole on top of her hat, in which it would sit, claws hanging onto
> the edge.
> 
Clif, old man, perhaps you should reconsider the wisdom of discussing
holes, heads, and the possible juxtaposition thereof.  Some TMLers might
misunderstand....

ObTrav:  Regardless of how annoying some may find some of Clif's posts,
at his very _worst_ he is not nearly as bad, IMHO, as the twit from TNS
who keeps pestering Professor Kuligaan in "Survival Margin."  At his
best, he does contribute useful material to TML.

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:23:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Ihatei Motivations

Hello all.

Somebody (I forget who, the digests just keep pouring in!), mentioned that
it would be unlikely for the Ihatei off the Marches to have huge fleets
due to the distance from the Hierate.  I mostly agree, and the Ihatei IMTU
are rarely equipped with more than a few destroyer-sized vessels and are
thus limited to taking over small low-tech worlds with no effective
defences. Now that such worlds are running out, they are pushing into
Imperial or soon-to-be Imperial worlds such as those in District 268. 
What I'd like to do now is start a discussion on the motivations that have
caused the Ihatei to cover such a large expanse is such a small time in
the first place.  After all, we are talking about two or three sectors to
cover in, what, 10 years?

In the TNE universe the motivation was the perceived weakness of the
Imperium. The second sons saw all the rich developed worlds of the Marches
as rich and easy prizes to gain due to all the problems the Imperials had
to face.  But in the G:T timeline this is not the case, so why did they
rush over like that? 

One factor to consider is Aslan birthrates.  If each established Aslan
leader has only 1 to 2 sons, then the Ihatei "population pressure" is less
than if they have huge broods containing 5 or 6 sons (remembering that
Aslan male:female ratio is 1:3, this means upwards of 20 children).

Another factor to consider is how well-equipped the Ihatei are and
therefore what sorts of worlds they can hope to conquer.  If each second
son is given an 800-ton mercenary cruiser and told to "go find his
fortune", then he's going to have to join forces with others just to take
over a TL3 world and hold it for any length of time.  On the other hand,
I've heard that Ihatei fleets are supposed to contain big 50Kt cruisers
and the like.  (This strikes me as a lot of resources to be thrown into
such risky ventures, but then these are aliens we're talking about.)  If
this is the case, then a single Ihatei fleet could take over some
relatively significant worlds on their own. 

I prefer the "under-equipped" Ihatei idea myself, for a couple of reasons. 
First, it just seems more plausible to me that an outcast second son would
get a few destroyers (in the 1 to 10 Kt range) to make his way with than
an entire task force complete with dreadnoughts and escorts.  Second, it
provides a motivation for rapid expansion.  If all you can take are small
defenceless worlds, then you quickly run out of these and start searching
further and further for "easy pickings".  Of course, this doesn't explain
why they haven't done more expanding spinward from the Hierate instead of
coreward...

One thing I wanted to take issue with was the assertion that "a typical
Jump-3 Ihatei fleet" would take a year to cross the Great Rift.  Wouldn't
the fleet have to be Jump-5 to get across at all?  Or are you talking
about setting up deep-space refuelling stations and the like?  Also, on
the "big map of the universe", there's a chuck of Aslan space already on
the other side of the rift.  Doesn't this imply that some Aslan clans are
already well-established on that side?  Couldn't much of the Ihatei start
from there?  Or, failing that, couldn't they come across the rift and buy
equipment (read: war ships) from the Aslan on that side (at massively
inflated prices of course)? 

Just some thoughts...

Charles.

- -----
"Can anything truly meaningful be said in just a single line? Maybe, maybe
not." 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1387
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, January 8 1999      Volume 1998 : Number 1388



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Laser-induced sound
Re: GT tech levels vs Ancient Tech and TL penalties
Re: Traveller World Building-Biomes
Re: Last chance for Traveller-I think not!
Digesting Aliens (follow up)
RE: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Vargr, in combat.
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ? 
Re: 'Reverse Laser Microphones'
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: GT tech levels vs Ancient Tech and TL penalties
re: Solar System Formation Article
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: StarCruiser
Re: The 24 Hour Policy
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: Red Riding Hood and PsyWar
Re: Solar System Formation Article
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Solar System Formation Article
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics 
Re: Cool surviving Reality

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:23:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Laser-induced sound

> Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 09:19:25 -0500
> From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
> 
> My friend the physicist doesn't know anything about "inverse laser
> microphones". He did mutter sarcastically that he supposed an "inverse
> flashlight" made things darker... and wasn't I playing Traveller, not
> D&D? 

To be fair, I can see a physical basis for laser-induced sound-frequency
hull vibration.  Just amplitude-modulate a beam powerful enough at high
amplitude to vaporize a thin surface layer of the hull.  These shocks,
AM'd to carry the desired signal, would result in sound-frequency
vibrations in the hull, and hence sound.

The question is whether a sound loud enough to qualify as an intimidating
howl could be produced without damaging the hull (i.e., being a weapon
rather than an intimidation tool).  My guess is that it couldn't.

- -- 
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      "The hills were burning, and the wind was raging; and the
       clock struck midnight in the Garden of Allah."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 17:22:13 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: GT tech levels vs Ancient Tech and TL penalties

> Actually, its GTL 12.

Oops ... knew that ... honest.  Thanks for the correction.

> > Now assuming that the Ancients are GTL14-16, according to 
> > GURPS rules, an engineer with Engineering(some speciality) TL13 
> > would be able to figure out what this Ancient Tech does on a -5, -10, 
> > -15 respectively (after that he is lost) ... assuming that the ancients 
> > are this low on the Tech scale and you follow the rules. 
> 
> Actually, that's not true.  The -5/-10/-15 modifiers are for _any_
> engineering/mechanics roll related to the item, and are cumulative with any
> other penalties.  As reverse-engineering an item at your _own_ tech level is
> frequently not a zero penalty, this gets pretty prohibitive for higher tech
> items.  The base penalties probably mostly apply to trying to use the item, not
> to understanding it.

Actually, the rules state that to repair an item of two tech levels 
higher than your own is -10.  But they also state there is a good 
chance of breaking it permanetly.  I guess because your flub 
chance increases as your skill goes down ...

But, then again, there is always the "So you want to reverse 
engineer it, huh?  Well, your character spends the next the 5 years 
in total isolation whilst he works on it.  When you finally figure it out, 
everybody is now 500 points and you are still 150.  Good job on the 
Frontbritzer, by the way."

What kind of penalty would you apply to reverse-engineering 
something from the same TL?  -3, -6 ?


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 18:27:11 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Traveller World Building-Biomes

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>Have any details? Because as I understand it, *horsetails* (one of the
>oldest existing forms of plant life) use that trick. 

I remember that herbivores had to evolve continuously-growing teeth, and
that there was a big shake-up. Grasses also created prairies and steppes,
where previously there was scrub.  

No references now.  I'll see what I can dig up after marking.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 00:07:28 +0100
From: Volker Greimann <greimann@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Last chance for Traveller-I think not!

>	Right On!   I'm really looking forward to seeing some T5 stuff.  has anyone
>seen any of the play test files?   I'd really like to get some demo games
>going at a local extremely-gamer friendly store here in North VA, but haven't
>seen any of the files.  Is any of the material going to be compatable with T4
>data? (well, with Emp's arsenal anyway, I kind of lked that one).
Just write to Marc Miller at 
FarFuture@aol.com
and hell send them to you!
Volker
- ---
Volker A. Greimann, greimann@geocities.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:35:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Digesting Aliens (follow up)

Hi all.  

Thanks to those who posted regarding my question a while back about
genetically engineering intestinal flora/fauna for digesting alien
nutrients.  The discussion was quite enlightening even if it got quite
technical at points.  

I was wondering, would you all consider it fair to say the consensus is
that it would be easier to have some sort of "food processor" that took in
alien food and output edible product?  Or would even this be difficult to
devise?  If it's plausible, what would you do for emergency situations? 
Could you have a small pack of enzymes to pour onto food ("1. Open packet
and put into bowl.  2. Add local stuff.  3.  Mash and stir thoroughly" :-) 
that would do the trick?  Or would the diversity of alien biologies defeat
this sort of strategy?  

Charles.

- -----
"Can anything truly meaningful be said in just a single line? Maybe, maybe
not." 
Charles Collin \\ McGill Psychology \\ http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl
Ph: (514) 398-6151 \\ FAX: (514) 398-4896 \\  charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:35:06 -0000
From: "MindShift Design" <mindshift@usa.net>
Subject: RE: Traveller's Last Chance?

> Finally, at work, it was the very fact that I was a roleplayer that was
> negative, not what roleplaying game I played. In this case, I didn't put up
> with it, and even had a couple of sessions with a girl from my workplace and
> a couple of her friends...

Erm ... I gotta rid of my dirty mind <g>.

Regards

Jason Paul McCartan
MindShift Design Game Studios
Game Developers
 "Altering Perceptions, Creating Worlds"

Home to the PBM/PBeM Developers Webring

email: mindshift@usa.net
website: http://members.xoom.com/mindshift

ICQ #: 16802661
AIM: Japem

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:40:00 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Vargr, in combat.

Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:56:56 -0000, "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>

>It's difficult to make the aliens in our games sufficiently "alien" to make
>them feel right, without going so far as to be silly, or making them
>ineffectual. Taking a racial trait to extremes is not always the right
>answer.
>
>Certain threads about Vargr in combat seem to fit into this category. How
>should we make a Vargr raid seem different from an attack by a squad of
>human cut-throats, without taking it to a silly extreme?

To me, one of things is _not_ to look at dogs for "cute" things
to attribute to the Vargr.  Instead, look at what the sentient
Vargr are described as.  They are carnivores so having them
eat meat makes sense.  They are not dogs so having them
drink out of bowls is silly.  They are a described as not
tending to hide their feelings and the similarities means
that humans are able to pick up on this.  However, they
aren't any more likely to howl in battle than a human is
to hoot and throw leaves...

One thing I would do is make them the aliens that are "sort"
of like humans.  To a human the problem with a Hiver is that
talking to it is like talking to a wall.  Since you can only
ever get the meaning of the worlds, understanding is harder.
However, with a Vargr you can get a much deeper understanding
of what they are trying to say, most of the time.  Most of the
time, sometimes those species differences will turn around and
get you.  Relations with Hiver will be cool, slow, and careful.
Relations with Vargr will develop much faster and more fruitfully,
but will be caracterized by occaison blowups.

>It seems to me that while vargr are more than smart enough to realise that
>acting like a mob on the battlefield is ineffective (and lethal), you might
>get the situation where some idiot decides he wants all the charisma for an
>attack, and hey, this target looks weak enough to take without sticking to
>the tame and safe plan.... so somebody might go off at half-cock and attack
>early. Occasionally. At other times a position might fall apart because
>somebody thought that there was less charisma lost in abandoning a hopeless
>position than in getting pounded.

Well, one should also tend to avoid say "Vargr are".  A lot of
what I see described for all Vargr are things that you can
find humans doing.  The fact is that Vargr are going to be just
as diverse as humans are.  The wording should reflect that.
Vargr tend to do things in groups.  They aren't "pack animals".
Similarly, you wouldn't say that a Vargr always does things
for Charisma, instead you should say that not being appreciated
for his/her accomplishments weighs more heavily on a Vargr than
it does for a human.

>the support gunners all being the personal
>following of whomever has the most charisma among them, but nobody is going
>to challenge for leadrship in the middle of a firefight (well, not usally.
>But then stupidity is not an exclusively human trait).

They might if the leader has made a real mess of things.  It
is quite known for humans group to loose all confidence in
a leader who has clearly screwed things up and dump him
on the assumption that they will surely loose if they don't.
The main difference is that the human habit of following
incompetant leaders into disaster is much less common among
the Vargr.  Otherwise, I agree (this is, after all, an
extreme case and might not even occur in a Vargr society
that is much more merit based).  Normally, the main effect
is that Vargr will tend to switch leaders between battles,
not in the middle.

>We know from canon that Vargr favour the raid.

I dont' think this is directly caused by Vargr society.  The reason
they prefer raids isn't because they are like wolves that a snatching
food.  They favor raids because the states they from tend to be
small and unable to conquer and hold land.

>Knowing the effect that wild animal cries in the night have upon humans,
>vargr might engage in psyops to unsettle their targets or to misdirect them.
>They're certainly smart enough for that. But they would also know that
>advertising that you're about to attack (this "howl" business) is not a
>great idea.

As I think you are saying, I don't think that they would "instinctively"
do this.  However, a Vargr might read a story by a human about
how the howls in the dark unerved him and say "hmmm, if they are
afraid of such things, lets us it".  (Though if I were them
I would record some holws and play them from places were we
weren't so that any attacks against the sound will be wasted).

>There's a tendency (especially, I seem to recall among teenage gamers) to
>write in stuff becasue it "sound cool", which upon examination doesn't work.

Yeah.  This is also why I caution against things people want
to introduce.  Thing that sound cool often also, upon extended
examination, cause background problems.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:39:12 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

Martin Hardgrave wrote:
> 
> In message <36952656.3947215C@GLJA.com>, Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
> writes
> >Anyone read Frederick Pohl's Gateway? I'd probably play it like that. You count
> >up how much food you have, and divide by two. If you haven't emerged from jump
> >space by then, you start drawing lots for suicides.
> 
> Surely an arm or leg here and there at the start?  A full size body
> (with careful carving) should feed about 120 people.
> --
> Martin Hardgrave

Reminds me of the movie, "The Big Bus", in which the driver of an
experimental nuclear-powered bus had scandal in his past:  he was the
driver of a bus that was stranded in the mountains for some time; when
rescuers had arrived, he was the only survivor---and he had gained
weight.  (He claimed that he ate the seat cushions....)

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 18:36:05 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ? 

> > Yeah.  I want one where I won't have to be in the same system with some
> of
> > the guys on this list.  ;)
> 
> Nah.  Just blow them up. ;)
> 
> Actually this reminds me of a thought I had a month or so ago:  the
> honourable way for Traveller players to sort out their differences is
> called Trillion Credit Squadron.

Interesting idea...
 
> Shame we've got so many different game systems!

High Guard is all you need.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 18:49:40 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: 'Reverse Laser Microphones'

Clif writes:
>>Sadly, this causes an effect called "heating" which is detrimental to the
>>metal. IE: This device would vapourise the target before making much useful
>>sound. An example of a "cool" device that doesn't survive reality
>
>Oh, but "jump drives" and "lanthanum grids" survive reality?
>
>Excuse me, while I bust a gut.
>
>This was a Sci-Fi game, you said?
>
>- --Clif
[snip to another post]
>
>
>I'm making an educated guess that there are people on this list with a
>sufficient scientific background who can answer these questions and provide
>relevant information.

And then you're ignoring what these experts say.  People like the two
Bruces put a great deal of thought into figuring out the implications of
_fictional_ technology, making everything as consistent as possible.  They
freely make their professional knowledge available and answer questions,
often dumb ones, because they like the game and enjoy helping people
understand science. 

If you're going to ignore answers that you don't like, then have the
courtesy to say something like "I think this is a neat effect. I'd like to
hear how it's possible. If it's not possible don't bother telling me why."
That way they won't waste their time answering you.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 16:50:20 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

>>>>
How about this, I adjust the artificial gravity to a microgravity level
around the ship, then its Jump Drive, in theory could work, if you remember
we have removed the variable of gravity from the equation, not the rest of
the variables...

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
>>>>
Even if you turn off the artificial gravity, you still have the natural gravity of ship B (that ship A is launching from).  I suppose if ship B had a big enough (evacuated) cargo hold that ship A could use it's thrusters to hover in the middle of it, and still be "100 diameters" from anyplace on ship B, we could handwave away any further influence ship B would have on ship A's attempt (though that would have to be a mighty big cargo hold to be 100 diameters away even for a 100 dton Type S scout, unless you want to add in the possibility of Jump Torpedos).  We still have the problem of forming a Jump bubble inside another Jump bubble, but I will skip that for the moment, hoping to see some more interesting thoughts along those lines.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:50:37 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: GT tech levels vs Ancient Tech and TL penalties

Bont wrote:
> 
<<snips discussion of reverse-engineering difficulty>> 
> 
> But, then again, there is always the "So you want to reverse
> engineer it, huh?  Well, your character spends the next the 5 years
> in total isolation whilst he works on it.  When you finally figure it out,
> everybody is now 500 points and you are still 150.  Good job on the
> Frontbritzer, by the way."
> 
Except that, depending on what the Frontbritzer does, you may well gain
the advantages of Filthy Rich (or maybe even Multimillionaire) [based on
how marketable the item is] , Patron (or at least Favor) [either
marketability or military utility], Reputation [as a gearhead without
peer], or other Advantages that haven't occurred to me yet....

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:00:14 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Solar System Formation Article

>Another thing I found interesting was their noting that gas-giant cores,
>before they acquire their huge atmospheres, would have masses in the 5 to
>20 earths range.  Does this imply that young systems might have giant
>rockball worlds with 5 to 20 gs of surface gravity?  What would such a
>world be like?  Could life evolve there if for some reason no large
>crushing atmosphere was developed?  What would it be like?  Would it have
>a hope in hell of developing space travel?

They'd actually be iceball worlds (part of why they get so huge being
that ice is much more common in the outer solar system than rock is in
the inner.) It's perfectly plasuible that one could fail to acquire an
atmosphere, due to clearing out of the gas from the protoplanetary disk
and/or transfer of the iceball to a wide orbit with little gas. Surface
gravity wouldn't be all that terrible (gravity only 
goes as mass^1/3 and density^2/3, so gravities would only be 0.8 G to
1.4 G unless I'm messing up the math). Of course, such a planet couldn't
be in the habitable zone since it would melt...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:11:30 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

>Keep in mind the PBM/PBeM market where post and email are a great way for
>players to play together even out of the way. Mind you, I might be biased
><g>.


Well, being biased is fine in this case. I'm glad to hear it. :^)

I always got kind of depressed when I'd read "The Dragon" or "Challenge" and
see people way out in the middle of nowhere looking for nearby people to
play. I'm just wired that way though :^/


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:07:04 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: StarCruiser

There was a beta software version of Star Cruiser once.
Never got ported to win or win 95 or something.
To much work or so I heard.
MPGN (Tantalus) owns the rights to 2300, Twilight 2000 and Dark Conspiracy.
They probably wanted a version of Star Cruiser like clif mentioned for their
game network.

tv

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:08:50 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: The 24 Hour Policy

>The 24 Hour Policy:
>
>If you read an email that upsets you, to the point where you feel the
>need to respond in an aggressive, assertive or otherwise
>confrontational fashion, wait!  Wait for 24 hours, re-read the post,
>postulate your response, and answer in a calm, civilized fashion.

Another thing that peole on this list might do is not seek
to be able to "declare victory".  There is a tendency to
demand that someone either defend a postion in post after post
or admit that they were a "duplicitous fool who never really
believed what he was posting and was mostly lying anyway".

If someone says that they don't agee with your position but
that they don't want to get into it, respect that.  They
are, after all, giving you the last word and if your arguements
are as convincing as you belive them to be, that should be
enough.  Don't respond with demands that the person defend
why anyone might disagree with you (which only forces the
thread to drag on that much longer).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 00:03:28 -0000
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

Legate Wrote:

>How about this, I adjust the artificial gravity to a microgravity level
>around the ship, then its Jump Drive, in theory could work, if you remember
>we have removed the variable of gravity from the equation, not the rest of
>the variables...

>Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart

If this were in 'My Traveller Universe (TM)',

I would say that by using artificial gravity, i.e Grav plates, all you're doing
is creating an equal and opposite gravity field. Not the same thing as having
NO gravity field at all, you have two! So it would not work..

IMTU, you can have it work in yours!

Cheers

Derrick.

(Clif, Heck - if you want Vargr in YTU to howl, then do so! Just don't expect ours
to do so too!)

Derrick Jones
St Helens
Lancashire UK

mailto:dojones@whitestar.u-net.com
http://www.whitestar.u-net.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:32:05 -0000
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Red Riding Hood and PsyWar

Clif,

quoting from one of your later messages. I think paragraph 2 simpy
proves that 1 is absolutely spot on!

why don't you leave arguing and spouting off to subjects you claim
to know something about? Some of the messages you have made 
in the last week or so, were good, so keep up with them, not busting
your self out over something 'you have not read much about' !

Peacefully yours,

Derrick

(BTW grenades are NOTHING compared to an AS90 firing within
100m when you're trying to sleep. And every British soldier I've ever
met is concerned more about when he's next going to get some shut 
eye, or a meal, and keeping out of the eye of the Sergeant Major, so he
doesn't get to pull too many stags!)


>Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:45:13 -0500
>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Red Riding Hood and PsyWar

<snip>
(1)
>I admit that I have not read much about Vargr, preferring human and
>android-only campaigns.

<snip>
(2)
>Lots of people are still afraid of dogs.  With vargr, you are basically
>talking about the thing that ate Little Red Riding Hood's grandmother and
>almost made a tasty morsel out of her.
>
<snip>



Derrick Jones
St Helens 
Lancashire UK

mailto:dojones@whitestar.u-net.com
http://www.whitestar.u-net.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:12:00 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Solar System Formation Article

Fri, 8 Jan 1999 17:46:00 -0500 (EST), Charles Collin
<charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
>Another thing I found interesting was their noting that gas-giant cores,
>before they acquire their huge atmospheres, would have masses in the 5 to
>20 earths range.  Does this imply that young systems might have giant
>rockball worlds with 5 to 20 gs of surface gravity?  What would such a
>world be like?  Could life evolve there if for some reason no large
>crushing atmosphere was developed?  What would it be like?  Would it have
>a hope in hell of developing space travel?

Well, first of all, that was before the sun fired up.  (That is
the difference with the gas giants, they managed to get big
enough to hold on to their gas when the sun ignited)  It also
was a period while the plants were accretting (and so probably
had a molten surface).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:14:21 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

>>>>
The end result is still the same, however. Computer games have taken a huge
chunk out of the potential RPG market. It's only going to get worse, too.
Especially if "Baldur's Gate" is any indication.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
>>>>
http://hyw1.erudite.com/Books/WargamesHandbook/Contents.htm
The above is a link to (guess what) a quite definitive wargames text.  The
introduction talks about the interaction in the gaming market of computer
games.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:09:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Solar System Formation Article

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes:

> They'd actually be iceball worlds (part of why they get so huge being
> that ice is much more common in the outer solar system than rock is in
> the inner.) It's perfectly plasuible that one could fail to acquire an
> atmosphere, due to clearing out of the gas from the protoplanetary disk
> and/or transfer of the iceball to a wide orbit with little gas. Surface
> gravity wouldn't be all that terrible (gravity only 
> goes as mass^1/3 and density^2/3, so gravities would only be 0.8 G to
> 1.4 G unless I'm messing up the math). Of course, such a planet couldn't
> be in the habitable zone since it would melt...

Hm..how exactly is it a theoretical problem for a planet to be liquid?  It
isn't like mechanical factors are a big deal in holding it together. 
Fortunately, escape energy goes up as mass ^ 2/3 and density ^ 1/3, so a
goodsized iceball should be able to hold on to its lighter elements fairly
well.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 15:44:15
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics 

At 04:54 PM 1/8/99 -0500, Clif wrote:
>If it is argument FOR the originally described Vargr method, then it is ME.
>If it is argument AGAINST, it is everyone else.
>First you want me to clip everything originally said and now you want me to
>keep it and source it, too?

No, we want you to adhere to the common rules of netiquette.

>Just follow the greater than signs, since we are all supposed to be able to
>REMEMBER who send what in all previous posts.

Coming from the man who said "I can't remember who said it" about a salient
point in his own thread.

>At 150 posts/day, I don't have time to "source" the quotes, especially when
>it seems to be me against the list.

You do not have my sympathies.

- --

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 16:10:31
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Cool surviving Reality

At 04:00 PM 1/8/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Oh, but "jump drives" and "lanthanum grids" survive reality?
>Excuse me, while I bust a gut.
>This was a Sci-Fi game, you said?

Ah, but you specified (rather forcibly) that this was a LASER.  Lasers are
real world artifacts that have very well-known properties.  You shine a
laser on something, and it will heat up.  The more powerful the laser, the
more powerful the heating.  You propose a laser capable of turning hull
metal into a speaker.. care to figure out how much energy that would take,
and what percentage of the energy would be transferred as heat to the
target?  Hint: you're much more likely to bore a hole straight through the
INV Coronation than deliver a message.

- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1388
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.comTraveller-digest     Saturday, January 9 1999     Volume 1998 : Number 1389



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: Vargr, in combat.
Re: StarCruiser
Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?
Re Bagpipes in todays modern army.
Re: Why Use Armour in FFS etc
Re: Solar System Formation Article
Re: Why Use Armour in FFS etc
Re: Traveller's Last Chance? 
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics
Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Traveller's Last Chance? 
Law Levels
Re: GT tech levels vs Ancient Tech and TL penalties
re: Red Riding Hood and PsyWar
Traveller World Building--biomes
Re: World building--biomes
Re: jumpspace recursion 
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: jumpspace recursion 
Re Bagpipes in todays modern army.
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 15:41:40
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

At 03:34 PM 1/8/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Ohhh, now it is to AVERT combat?  Well, a couple of Nukes once "AVERTED"
>combat, and they simply artillery on the massive scale (though dropped from
>a plane, it matters not, since it is the boom we are talking about).  Those
>who saw the image surrendered.

This takes the cake.  The first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima on
August 6th.  Japan keeps fighting.  The second bomb takes out Nagasaki on
August 9th, and when the government attempts to surrender, the military
attempted a coup that was stopped only by the personal intervention of the
Emperor.  Japan finally agreed to surrender on August 14th, after realizing
that the Allies were still preparing for Olympic, the invasion of the
Japanese home islands, and all the destruction that would cause.

American units were still on the recieving ends of organized attacks well
through November of 1945.  This does not include single holdouts like Hiroo
Onoda, but large or technologically advanced units.
- --

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|  Now at midnight all the agents    |
|     And the superhuman crew        |  
|  Come out and round up everyone    |
|   That knows more than they do     |
|        -Bob Dylan, Desolation Row  |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 15:54:51
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr, in combat.

At 04:30 PM 1/8/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Hmm, sounds pretty dog-like, to me.

Nope, pretty Vargr like.

At Ft. Benning (that's an Army base, Clif) we had to hunt down the dog
packs that formed when people dumped their pets in on base.  Ever seen a
feral poodle?  This detail was handed to snipers because we needed the real
practise.  

Yes, they do howl.  Mostly at evening, and mostly to locate of packs.  We
heard 'em to, to now where to set up.  When the hunt they are *silent*  I
saw a group of dogs bring down a deer once, most violent act I've ever
seen, and not a bark or growl during the chase and kill.  When we opened
up, then they started barking in warning.  The state Game Warden with us
explained that since dogs pant to lose heat, they *can't* make noise when
hunting.

You should learn more about canis canaiede, might I suggest "Cujo" or
"Lassie Come Home"?  Given you penchant for learning through popular media
I figured you'd enjoy these.
- --

+---------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net |
|        http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/       |
+---------------------------------------------+
| "Strategy is the art of making use of time  |
|  and space.  I am less concerned about the  |
|  latter than the former.  Space we can      |
|  recover, lost time never."                 |
|         -Napoleon Bonaparte, French soldier |
+---------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 16:17:17
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: StarCruiser

At 04:05 PM 1/8/99 -0500, Clif wrote:
>Look, I'm talking about a Computer Simulation game that you could play via
>modem for so much money an hour.  It ALREADY existed and was based on
>StarCruiser or 2300AD.  I'm asking people who KNOW what I'm talking about to
>give me more info.  Evidently, no one on this list saw it or played it.  It
>enabled you to LOOK at nearby ships with a cockpit view.  If you don't like
>it, find out who I'm talking about and bitch to THEM!  It's not my problem!
>
>Since you don't know, either, keep your grimy nose OUT!

That's it.  What's Rob's address?  I want this wannabe gone before the
weekeend is over.

The thouroughly pissed off:
- --

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 00:07:21 -0000
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?

Jason,

Clif wrote
>Yeah.  I want one where I won't have to be in the same system with some of
>the guys on this list.  ;)

>- --Clif

Could you please, please generate a real-life E-Mail system where Clif
can play in his own way, on his own? ;-)

Sorry, Clif, just trying to inject a little humour!

Derrick Jones
St Helens 
Lancashire UK

mailto:dojones@whitestar.u-net.com
http://www.whitestar.u-net.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:52:48 -0000
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>
Subject: Re Bagpipes in todays modern army.

Dear fellow TML'ers

I speak, hopefully, with a bit of an insight into the workings
of the modern day British Army, having served until 2 years 
ago 'for Queen & Country' (or something like that!). I haven't 
heard about, or seen, bagpipes being played in battle. 
Fair play, the pipes were taken along to the South Atlantic,
and I have heard they were taken to the Gulf, but not really 
to be used in the attack to demoralise the enemy, just to 
bolster morale before and after, and provide a bit of entertainment
afterwards, and on the way home....As well as routine duties like
waking up the SSM / CSM !!!

I seem to remember, Clif, that certain highland regiments wore
the kilt during WW2, and this demoralised the German forces,
who thought they 'were fighting women'*, but I'm pretty certain
that nowadays we all wear dpm combat fatigues. (Unless we have
a currently serving, or ex scottish regiment member to correct
me. Or anyone else who has done more than watch a movie
based 50 years in the past for his evidence of the actions of
Todays Army)

Cheers

Derrick

* This might be a British Army urban myth, but there might be
some truth in it.



>Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:29:33 -0500
>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

>I think I saw them bring them to Normandy in a WWII film called "The Long
>Day" or "The Longest Day" or something like that.

>- --Clif

Derrick Jones
St Helens 
Lancashire UK

mailto:dojones@whitestar.u-net.com
http://www.whitestar.u-net.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 00:33:39 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Why Use Armour in FFS etc

At 04:37 PM 1/7/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>EG if say a focused field of 8G surrounded a Grav Tank, then
>>a projective would have to hit the field and punch through 8G
>>to hit the main hull.
>
>
>An unlearned observation:
>
>8Gs is only 80 m/s or so, so the 12 cm KEAP round doing 3,600 m/s will now
>only hit you at 3,520 m/s.
>
>I don't think it'll help much, and it'd be cheaper/less mass/less energy to
>just layer on a little more superdense.
>
>Ciao,
>
>Joseph R. Dietrich
>yikes@evansville.net
>
>
>

Ok, instead of slowing in down with the gravitic field, how about changing
direction? Effectively increase the armor slope by having the gravitic field
shift the direction up or down so that the shell doesn't get a solid hit.

Feasible? 

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:37:45 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Solar System Formation Article

>Hm..how exactly is it a theoretical problem for a planet to be liquid?  It
>isn't like mechanical factors are a big deal in holding it together. 

Interesting question. I'm sure actually that I have heard of speculations
about "liquid planets", but don't recall much of them. Hard to imagine what
the currents would be like...could be a very odd place. 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:37:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Why Use Armour in FFS etc

Garry Ward writes:

> Ok, instead of slowing in down with the gravitic field, how about changing
> direction? Effectively increase the armor slope by having the gravitic
> field shift the direction up or down so that the shell doesn't get a solid
> hit. 
> 
> Feasible? 

Not really, though it depends on the length of the field.  In order for 8G to
make a projectile miss by a useful amount (say, 1.5 meters) you need to keep it
in effect for 0.2 seconds, which means the field has to be present at several
hundred meters from the tank.  Also, traveller gravetics doesn't seem to work
sideways.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 19:15:40 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance? 

> >Keep in mind the PBM/PBeM market where post and email are a great way for
> >players to play together even out of the way. Mind you, I might be biased
> ><g>.
> 
> 
> Well, being biased is fine in this case. I'm glad to hear it. :^)
> 
> I always got kind of depressed when I'd read "The Dragon" or "Challenge" and
> see people way out in the middle of nowhere looking for nearby people to
> play. I'm just wired that way though :^/

I hear ya.  I haven't had the chacne to 'face' in over a decade.  If it wasn't
for PBEM, I wouldn't be gaming at *all* today.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 17:04:38 -0800
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics

>In the real Army every organization claims to be the best, every branch
claims to be doing the real work, and we all agree the Navy are a bunch of
fops in silly hats.

hay, navy is the only way to go, bringing most of the comforts of home with
you.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 17:32:40 -0800
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)

>Oh he _said_ it was 'to deal with bear and moose.' It was built because
>they wanted the baddest pistol that could be carried. If you're talking
>about the Maadi-Griffin, it was available in carbine form too.
>
>http://www.prairienet.org/guns/pixs/lpb.gif
>
>and someone _firing_ it. Fairly average to petite someone, I'd say, too.
>
>http://www.prairienet.org/guns/pixs/tw.gif
>
So now we know what Ditzie looks like. eh?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 20:24:09 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

MindShift/Jason said:
>> Finally, at work, it was the very fact that I was a roleplayer that was
>> negative, not what roleplaying game I played. In this case, I
>> didn't put up
>> with it, and even had a couple of sessions with a girl from my
>> workplace and
>> a couple of her friends...
>
>Erm ... I gotta rid of my dirty mind <g>.


Yes, that you do. ;^)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 20:26:21 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance? 

Keven:
>I hear ya.  I haven't had the chacne to 'face' in over a decade.  If it
wasn't for PBEM, I wouldn't be gaming at *all* today.


I wouldn't have a place to talk seriously about Traveller if it wasn't for
the TML.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 17:38:45 -0800
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Law Levels

>
><< A Canadaian gunsmith made a bolt action *pistol* to deal with bear and
> moose. Single shot, .50 call BMG "ball" ammo.
>
> I don't even want to *think* about .50 BMG "hollow point" if such
> exists. :-)
>
> Nor do I want to *fire* the damned thing! >>
>
>Ow my aching wrists! I thought handguns were a no-no in Canada?
>
>Ob Trav: duh; law levels...:-)

Handguns are a no-no. Rifles(sport/hunting) the feds are working on making a
no-no of, and only make law abiding people law brakers.

Ob Trav: any thoughts on the effects of a change up/down on a worlds law
level?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:49:51 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: GT tech levels vs Ancient Tech and TL penalties

> <<snips discussion of reverse-engineering difficulty>> 
> > 
> > But, then again, there is always the "So you want to reverse
> > engineer it, huh?  Well, your character spends the next the 5 years in
> > total isolation whilst he works on it.  When you finally figure it out,
> > everybody is now 500 points and you are still 150.  Good job on the
> > Frontbritzer, by the way."
> > 
> Except that, depending on what the Frontbritzer does, you may well gain

Nothing important.  Paints the walls a random color each time the 
little green button is pushed ... >:)

> the advantages of Filthy Rich (or maybe even Multimillionaire) 
[based on
> how marketable the item is] , Patron (or at least Favor) [either
> marketability or military utility], Reputation [as a gearhead without
> peer], or other Advantages that haven't occurred to me yet....
> 
> <<snip>>

True, true.  That makes sense.  He would have had to live off of 
something during that time.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 21:10:57 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Red Riding Hood and PsyWar

Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
Lots of people are still afraid of dogs.  With vargr, you are basically
talking about the thing that ate Little Red Riding Hood's grandmother and
almost made a tasty morsel out of her.
>>>>>>>>>>>
The Big Bad Wolf ate a little old lady and threatened a child. The first
person to come along with any sort of weapon (the woodsman with the
axe) hacked the wolf to bits without working up a sweat. More a
archetypical bully than an archetypical scary warrior, IMO.

While there certainly are Vargr who can only concieve of personal
Charisma in terms of who they can personally beat up, their terms
of service as battlefield commanders should be limited by applied
Darwinian theory.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 21:14:34 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Traveller World Building--biomes

Rob Prior wrote:

>Over the holidays I read somewhere ("New Scientist" I think, but
>am not certain) than deep-rock bacteria may well have more
>biomass than any other lifeform. 

>We definately need to include alien biomes, especially for other
>biochemistries. 

>Also, many Earth biomes were very different before grass. We
>should include these for planets where plants never incorporated
>silica needles into themselves - that mutation radically changed
>Earth.

   This is one reason I was somewhat reluctant to post a great
deal on biomes (or types of plant cover) in the first place.
Terrestrial biomes are a bit too heavily dependent on terrestrial
plant species. Information on what kinds of plants grasses
displaced in the climate zones were grasses are common is a bit
hard to come by unless you already know where and how to look for
it. 
   I'm tired of trying to find stuff that is buried in eight
different scientific journals over fifteen years and written in
such technical terminology that you need at least a BS in the specialty
just to read it.  
 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 21:14:41 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: World building--biomes

Leonard Erickson replied:

>> Mean annual Temperature (degrees C)
>>  Below -15 Polar
>> -15 to -5  Arctic-Alpine
>> -5 to   5  Cold Temperate
>>  5 to  15  Warm Temperate
>>  15 to 25  Subtropical
>>  Above 25  Tropical

>We'll want to add climates at both extremes.

I thought of that.  At the low end of the scale, it doesn't seem
to matter a great deal if the average temperature is -20 C or -
40: Below freezing is still ice.  I'm not about to try ballroom
dancing with an organism that is comfortable at the temperature
of dry ice.  I could see extending the higher end of the
spectrum,
25-35 Tropical, 
35-45 Supertropical, 
45+ Extreme.

    Extreme deserts could be expected to have summer daytime
temperatures occasionally pass the boiling point in place.
The boling point sets an approximate upper limit just as much as
the freezing point sets an approximate lower limit for
terrestrial-type life.
    It should be possible to go even higher in temperature zones
before running against boiling point limits, but since 1) The
(evaporative) human body cooling system starts to break down in
the supertropical range, and 2) my imagination breaks down when I
go too far beyond terrestrial experience, this is as far as I
want to push it.

>I don't *think* we need to add a higher rainfall. Places like
>the Olympic peninsula (temperate rainforest) and some tropical
>areas are already about as wet as it's *possible* to get (rather
>like Venus as envisioned by Ray Bradbury and others. Eternal
>rain....)

If we go up in temperature, I could also see adding
400-500    :  very wet
500 or more:  drenched

to the precipitation table.

   Elfin woodland, Temperate rainforest, and tropical rainforest
are all environments which are about as wet as the temperature
allows. Warmer temperatures allow more water in saturated air,
and so increasing amounts of precipitation. However,
precipitation has a moderating effect on rainfall.

For worlds with supertropical temperature zones, add their
combinations with arid through very wet climates.
  For worlds with extreme temperature zones, add combinations of
extreme with arid through humid, and a supertropical drenched.
   An associated biome might be called supertropical rainforest,
and I would expect it to be taller with even stronger zones than
a tropical rainforest. (Lighted canopy where rain resembles a hot
shower; a dark, cooler middle zone, continually dripping or
raining, perhaps even cloudy; wetsoil floor).

As a handwave from the chart I consulted, I'd say:
   If the maximum average temperature is in the supertropical
range, add the combinations:
Supertropical/arid through very wet.
   If the maximum average temperature is in the extreme range,
add extreme/arid through extreme/humid and supertropical/drenched
(500 cm/yr or more)

  Another effect to be considered is that atmospheric pressure
affects the boiling point range and the humidity. A world with a
thin atmosphere will find that water boils somewhere around 80 C
and the humidity is lower for a given temperature. A world with a
dense atmosphere will find the opposite effect. 

  I noticed that the "bog" biome appeared twice: as #6 and again
as #19.  Drop the #6 and move everything below it up.
  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:56:06 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion 

> From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@glasscity.net>
> Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion 
> 
> > How about this, I adjust the artificial gravity to a microgravity level
> > around the ship, then its Jump Drive, in theory could work, if you
remember
> > we have removed the variable of gravity from the equation, not the rest
of
> > the variables...
> 
> It doesn't whack out the mass, though.

You will note that I did say "we have removed the variable of gravity from
the equation" not "we have removed the variable of mass from the
equation"...  

> Keven

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:14:09 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

<<  Even if you turn off the artificial gravity, you still have the natural
gravity of ship B (that ship A is launching from).  I suppose if ship B had
a big enough (evacuated) cargo hold that ship A could use it's thrusters to
hover in the middle of it, and still be "100 diameters" from anyplace on
ship B, we could handwave away any further influence ship B would have on
ship A's attempt (though that would have to be a mighty big cargo hold to
be 100 diameters away even for a 100 dton Type S scout, unless you want to
add in the possibility of Jump Torpedos).  We still have the problem of
forming a Jump bubble inside another Jump bubble, but I will skip that for
the moment, hoping to see some more interesting thoughts along those lines.
  - Joseph >>

My thoughts on a Jump Bubble within a Jump Bubble, are very simple.... 
"Ship go boom...."

Not a very good idea...

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 22:11:35 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion 

> > > we have removed the variable of gravity from the equation, not the rest
> of
> > > the variables...
> > 
> > It doesn't whack out the mass, though.
> 
> You will note that I did say "we have removed the variable of gravity from
> the equation" not "we have removed the variable of mass from the
> equation"...  

Good point.  But the mass of the launching ship would still affect the
launched ship.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 19:36:05 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re Bagpipes in todays modern army.

From:           	"Derrick Jones" <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>
Date sent:      	Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:52:48 -0000

>I seem to remember, Clif, that certain highland regiments wore
>the kilt during WW2, and this demoralised the German forces,
>who thought they 'were fighting women'*, but I'm pretty certain
>that nowadays we all wear dpm combat fatigues. (Unless we have
>a currently serving, or ex scottish regiment member to correct
>me. Or anyone else who has done more than watch a movie
>based 50 years in the past for his evidence of the actions of
>Todays Army)

Working from my long distant memories of the BAOR, the highland regiments 
(IIRC the lowland Scot regiments don't use pipes, though the Irish regiments 
do) did wear kilts in both world wars and Korea (kahki coloured :*>). Pipers 
appeared in battle during the 1st WW, they definitely appeared at El Alamain, 
they may have been used in Korea (though I'm much less certain on this); but 
the highlanders definitely no longer use pipes in battle (especially since pipers 
are also medics and have rather more pressing duties in combat).

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 7: KARL
More Teutonic than the English Charles, Karls can often be found
advising US Presidents on the underutilisation of nuclear weapons
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 21:29:04 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

Chris Seamans wrote:

> I always got kind of depressed when I'd read "The Dragon" or "Challenge" and
> see people way out in the middle of nowhere looking for nearby people to
> play.

Try being one.  Any body in northern Nevada?

Evyn...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:24:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

- ---Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net> wrote:
> 
> Chris Seamans wrote:
> 
> > I always got kind of depressed when I'd read "The Dragon" or "Challenge" and
> > see people way out in the middle of nowhere looking for nearby people to
> > play.
> 
> Try being one.  Any body in northern Nevada?
> 

Gamers, or anyone at all? :->  Is it really that lonely out there?  I
thought everyone in Nevada was a gamer.



==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
IMTU 0601 tc++ tm !tn t4 ?tg ge- 3i pi ta+ he+ 
http://come.to/traveller

Visit the "Subsidized Merchant" - http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1389
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, January 9 1999     Volume 1998 : Number 1390



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics 
Re: The 24 Hour Policy
Re: Traveller's Last Chance? 
Re : Digesting Aliens (follow up)
Santiago
Re: Ihatei motivations
RE: Re Bagpipes in todays modern army.
Re: The 24 Hour Policy
Inverse lasers and reality
Re: Subject: Re: Man-Kzin war
Re: Man-Kzin war
Re: Man-Kzin war
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: sublimation vs. evaporation
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)
Re: Re Bagpipes in todays modern army. 
Appeal
Re: Looking for copies of computer games
[OT] Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 23:31:38 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics 

...
>would not want a sniper next to me when the enemy rush my foxhole...  They,
>tend to take their time to make a good shot...

You mean you _don't_ get extra VP's for neatness?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 23:33:20 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: The 24 Hour Policy

...
>or admit that they were a "duplicitous fool who never really
>believed what he was posting and was mostly lying anyway".

  OTOH, there was Leroy, who take himself rather too seriously.

  Hey, "Clif", any opinions on the TL of the RoM?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 23:54:02 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance? 

...
>I wouldn't have a place to talk seriously about Traveller if it wasn't for
>the TML.

Serious discussions? I'd be concerned - thin bit of the wedge and all
that... :>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:02:05 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Digesting Aliens (follow up)

Charles Collin wrote :-
> I was wondering, would you all consider it fair to say the consensus is
> that it would be easier to have some sort of "food processor" that took in
> alien food and output edible product?  Or would even this be difficult to
> devise?  If it's plausible, what would you do for emergency situations?

I'd go with the food processor. If nanotechnology is available IMTU at
common tech levels, then the 'processor powder in a packet' is a goer.
Add to material and stir vigourously ; wait for an hour and voila ->
primordial soup <g>!

Beware of the potential for anaphylaxis ; you only need a few molecules!

[Ref : "You eat a mouthful of the gruel. Suddenly, your tongue starts
feeling a bit thick. This disturbing sensation is quickly overshadowed
by choking... you can't breathe.. your stomach is tying itself in
knots.. Mercifully, unconsciousness closes in."
Ref (to other players) : "He's collapsed to the ground and is obviously
choking to death, given the facial flushing and the extreme swelling of
the face and neck...."
Team Medic (to the other players) : "Get my medkit and call for help!"
(starts resuscitating player #1)]....

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
[resume lurk mode]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 03:24:11 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Santiago

I just finished a reread of Mike Resnick's "Santiago", and thought it might
make interesting fodder for a Traveller adventure. OK, so it's a few years
old, but the characters are colorful.  

   

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:08:42 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Ihatei motivations

Charles Collin writes:

>Somebody (I forget who, the digests just keep pouring in!),

That was me.

>...mentioned that
>it would be unlikely for the Ihatei off the Marches to have huge fleets
>due to the distance from the Hierate.  I mostly agree, and the Ihatei IMTU
>are rarely equipped with more than a few destroyer-sized vessels and are
>thus limited to taking over small low-tech worlds with no effective
>defences. Now that such worlds are running out, they are pushing into
>Imperial or soon-to-be Imperial worlds such as those in District 268. 

Why aren't they going further spinward instead? Lots of small single worlds
there.

>What I'd like to do now is start a discussion on the motivations that have
>caused the Ihatei to cover such a large expanse is such a small time in
>the first place.  After all, we are talking about two or three sectors to
>cover in, what, 10 years?

Not quite. The first _ihatei_ reached the Marches around the end of the 6th
century. These would have been isolated groups, because today, 5 centuries
later, the Aslans are still only really established in the rimward half of
Trojan Reach. Since they are known to have been there at least 4 centuries
ago (the Glorious Empire was founded about then), this pose quite a puzzler.
My own explanation is that shortly after the Civil War, the Imperium
instituted a policy of discouraging the Aslans from encroaching any further
corewards than they were at the time  --  that is, about halfway up Trojan
Reach. This would explain the roughly 10-parsec band of neutral worlds
(which I call The Buffer Zone) between the Aslan and the Imperial worlds.

BTW. I also think that when Five Sisters and District 268 was created
District 267 and 268 in 610, Pax Rulin, Gazulin, Tobia, and Usher/Reft was
declared Districts 269, 270, 271, and 272 at the same time.
 
>In the TNE universe the motivation was the perceived weakness of the
>Imperium. The second sons saw all the rich developed worlds of the Marches
>as rich and easy prizes to gain due to all the problems the Imperials had
>to face.  But in the G:T timeline this is not the case, so why did they
>rush over like that? 

I've tried to persuade Loren that they wouldn't and to cut down on the use
of Aslan _Ihatei_ in GT publications. I'm anxiously awaiting the publication
of GURPS:Mercs to see if I had any luck.
 
>One factor to consider is Aslan birthrates.  If each established Aslan
>leader has only 1 to 2 sons, then the Ihatei "population pressure" is less
>than if they have huge broods containing 5 or 6 sons (remembering that
>Aslan male:female ratio is 1:3, this means upwards of 20 children).

Spaceships are expensive and it takes a large population base to send off
even a few people. If you try to work out something based on _Trillion
Credit Squadrons_ and allow the Aslans to spend a full 1% of GWP on
outfitting _ihatei_ (remember, 1% is what some people think is too much
for the full military budget of the Imperium), then they can export
between 1 and 2% of each generation.
 
>If each second son is given an 800-ton mercenary cruiser and told to "go
>find his fortune", 

If each second son got an 800T cruiser the clan would be bankrupt.

>On the other hand, I've heard that Ihatei fleets are supposed to contain
>big 50Kt cruisers and the like. (This strikes me as a lot of resources to
>be thrown into such risky ventures, but then these are aliens we're talking
>about.)

_Ihatei_ are equipped with obsolescent ships. The big clans do have big
ships in their fleets. It seems that when such a ship becomes so old that
the Imperials would shunt it into their reserves, the Aslans instead turn
them over to their _ihatei_. Note, btw. that thais means that the functions
covered by the reserves in the Imperium would have to be covered by the main
clan forces, reducing the relative effectiveness per credit of clan forces.

>If this is the case, then a single Ihatei fleet could take over some
>relatively significant worlds on their own. 

The significant word is 'relatively'. I'm not saying they wouldn't be able
to sneak in on some small backwater worlds if the Imperial Fleet was
distracted, but no world with significant system defenses of its own.

>One thing I wanted to take issue with was the assertion that "a typical
>Jump-3 Ihatei fleet" would take a year to cross the Great Rift.  Wouldn't
>the fleet have to be Jump-5 to get across at all?  Or are you talking
>about setting up deep-space refuelling stations and the like?

Yes I am. The figure came from a canonical statement. I haven't checked
the logisitcs myself. There's another possibility: The clans that control
the Great Rift Crossing have large jump tugs and can be paid to carry ships
across the jump-5 links. But that costs money, of course.

>Also, on the "big map of the universe", there's a chuck of Aslan space
>already on the other side of the rift.  Doesn't this imply that some Aslan
>clans are already well-established on that side?

Certainly it does. But check out just how much that space covers. About 13
subsectors worth all in all. And that is split up between hundreds of clans,
which means that each individual clan controls only a small fraction of
the total strength. The Domain of Deneb covers about 34 subsectors and is
able to coordinate their efforts.

Now think about those 13 subsectors a little. The Asalns first crossed the
Great Rift in -1044. That's more than two millenia ago. During those 21
centuries the number of _ihatei_ that crossed the rift PLUS the natural
population expansion of the early establishements has sufficed to cover
13 subsectors. Now, suddenly, they are supposed to cover another 8 in 3
years. Am I the only one who think there's something wrong with that
picture?

>Couldn't much of the Ihatei start from there?

That's what I assume. But how many can that amount to if it has taken 21
centuries to fill out what they already have? Even if we assume a few
decades accumulated buildup.

>Or, failing that, couldn't they come across the rift and buy equipment
>(read: war ships) from the Aslan on that side (at massively
>inflated prices of course)? 

Buy with what? Money isn't wealth unless you can convert it into goods, and
the transportation of goods across the Great Rift is subject to the same
problems that plague the transportation of _ihatei_.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:26:46 -0000
From: "MindShift Design" <mindshift@usa.net>
Subject: RE: Re Bagpipes in todays modern army.

One of my friends is visiting today and he's ex-Scots infantry (at least he
tells me he was only infantry ...), so I'm going to ask him what the
situation is regarding the bagpipes. I'll post an answer sometime later
tonight.

It's nice being a Scotsman ... <g> We get to wear skirts and beat the crap
outta those that laugh at us !

Regards

- --
Jason Paul McCartan					ICQ: 16802661
MindShift Design Game Studios			AIM: Japem
mindshift@usa.net
http://members.xoom.com/mindshift

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 06:32:45 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: The 24 Hour Policy

I personally perfer the the "Leroy manuver"! Everything with certain
names in the "From:" line automatically goes into the circular file, no
muss, no fuss.


Steven Hudson wrote:
> 
> ...
> >or admit that they were a "duplicitous fool who never really
> >believed what he was posting and was mostly lying anyway".
> 
>   OTOH, there was Leroy, who take himself rather too seriously.
> 
>   Hey, "Clif", any opinions on the TL of the RoM?

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com
"In this same line why do the Brits (no insult intended) have BITS?
Where
is the NATS (North American Traveller's Society)? After all it IS "Yanks
in Space" ;^> why aren't we yanks doing more to promote it?"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 10:19:11 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Inverse lasers and reality

Okay, Clif. Your guts are aching.

Now please explain to me (First Degree Electrical & Electronic Engineering,
second Physics) how this inverse laser device of yours works in a hard-SF
universe.

J-drive and artificial gravity are handwaves accepted for the sake of a good
game setting. They are accompanied by plausible pseudo-science. Your howlgun
violates a law of physics which says that to make a large object vibrate
enough to get any useful amount of sound, you need to supply a great deal of
energy. Now, as we know, sound waves caused by the transfer of kinetic
energy (vibrations) from the solid to the surrounding medium causing several
pressure wavefronts (these caused by vibrating air molecules which do not
themselves move) to move outwards (we call these successions of compression
and rarefaction in the air "sound waves"). Problem is; a laser is a highly
focussed "beam" of coherent light (yes, it has to be, else it's not a laser
but a flashlight). That means that all the energy you're supplying arrives
at one point, melting the target (or else not applying sufficient energy to
do anything useful). Now that means you CAN produce a sound with eough
energy (a sort of "Whoom!" of displaced superheated air as the target
undergoes rapid expansion and a change of state from solid to liquid and
perhaps on to gas. It then burns for a while, making a nice crackling sound
perhaps.

Can you please tell this ignorant physicist how your magic device works...
and have you filed for patent yet?

Point is: if you can hit the target with a laser this powerful, why not just
kill it?

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 04:00:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Man-Kzin war

In mail you write:

>> > How about the Pak?
>> > 
>> > 3I vs the Pak? 
>> 
>> The Pak would win the same way they won on Wonderland.  After infecting
> all
>> the high population worlds with tree of life virus the new Pak fleets
> would
>> simply overwhelm what's left of the Imperium.  Remember Brennan took over
> a
>> multimillion person colony by himself.
>
> Just a little nit, Brennan wasn't Pak, he was a human protector.  He took
> over "Home" (not Wunderland) in the process of trying to kill the Pak
> colonization fleet.  That's the problem with the Pak using the technique
> you suggest; human protectors will try to *kill* the Pak, lest they do the
> same to humans, and the humans start with better technology.  I'm trying to
> imagine what a protector could do with Traveller-style gravitics and meson
> weapons.  It's not pretty.

Worse. Consider a Zhodani Protector. Increased psi would see a logical
effect, since the virus increases intelligence.

Solomani protectors are going to be a lot like Brennan and Teela.
Vilani protectors, on the other hand, are going to be a lot like Pak!

Hmmm. *That's* why Grandfather is hiding. He discovered not only that
humans weren't native to Terra, but that they were descended from Pak. 

I'd hide too!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 04:05:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Man-Kzin war

In mail you write:

>>The lesson that the Kzin eventually learned was 1) humans gave up war
>>because they were SO good at it and 2) the humans were fighting a war
>>for survival (total war against kzin) where as the Kzin were just out
>>to conquer us for slaves.
>
> (c) Kzinti must be really, really, really stupid. The Kzin had reactionless
> gravity drives capable of hundred-G accelerations, while the humans had
> only fusion rockets - and contrary to Niven, a fusion rocket makes a terrible
> space combat weapon, especially against anyone who has ten times your
> acceleration. 

Fusion rockets weren't the most efficient drives the humans had. Check
out "The Warriors", the story of first contact between humans and
Kzinti. The humans had a ship that had reaction drive that gave it an
acceleration somewhere between 1/100th and 1/10th g. Not even worth
paying attention to, right?

Only thing is, it was a *photon* drive. In other words, a laser. And a
laser *that* powerful can be used for carving up asteroids, much less
Kzin warships. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 04:11:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Man-Kzin war

In mail you write:

>> How about the Pak?
>> 
>> 3I vs the Pak? 
>
> 3I wins it hands down.  Not only does their technology overwhelm the Pak 
> Protectors, but also the Protectors are extremely predictable.  As Brennan 
> said, there's very little free will in a Protector.  They'll figure out the 
> best possible tactic every time and use it.  All you have to do is figure 
> out what it'll be and sucker them into it, then clobber them.

Slight problem. You are confusing "lack of free will" with stupidity.
They "lack free will" because they are so much smarter than we are that
there's usually only one solution for a given problem given a specific
set of tools and to *them* it is obvious.

That means that they are smart enough to *know* when the best tactic is
something that mere humans can figure out. 

Fighting something *that* much smarter than you is not easy. The only
way to win is to *continually* be able to make use of informatiuon
unknown to the protectors.

Also, against a foe the size of the third Imperium, you can be sure
that the first thing they'll do is grab some isolated ships both for
info, and to learn the technology. And there goes your tech advantage. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 04:18:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

In mail you write:

> "Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:
>
>> > Here's food for thought:
>> >
>> > Let's say ship A is being carried in ship B. Ship B jumps into hyperspace.
>> > Sometime during the week, ship A executes a jump.
>> >
>> > What happens?
>>
>> Er, my mistake.  Ship *A* disappears.
>
> I would think that A's attempt to enter Jump would fail without disastrous 
> side effects.
> Its already in jump space.  So you couldn't even charge the lanthanum grid.
> A would just sit there like a lump.  I don't see why the jump drive of A 
> would work at all.
> Am I missing something?

Yes. Jump space destroys normal matter. That's why ships carry a bubble
of *normal* space around them. So Ship A is *not* in jump space. It's
in a small chunk of normal space that's inside jump space.

Alas for ship A, it's also in "normal space" that's nowhere *near*
"flat" enough for safe activation of a jump drive. So it suffers the
same fate as a ship trying to jump from the surface of a planet. 

Ship B runs into trouble because Ship A's attempts may disrupt the
bubble of normal space around it. In which case *it* goes away. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 04:23:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

In mail you write:

> IMTU, I'd warn the intrepid astrogator that this move has never been 
> recorded in the 1k+ years of Imperial Interstellar Exploration History. 
> If they really want to try it I'd say "Roll 2d6 and pray."
> (NO skill will help this one!)
> 2=both ships are destroyed in an incredible display of jumpspace 
> pyrotechnics.
> 7=ship b is thrown out of jumpspace early (misjump), ship a never 
> finished the shift into hyperspace.
> 12=one serious misjump to God only knows where (but they'd be alive...)

"Captain, we're being hailed by a million plus ton wedge configuration
ship. Somebody named Vader wants to know why we are in a restricted
area..." 

Or maybe it's Kim Kinnison and the Dauntless making the challenge. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 04:36:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: sublimation vs. evaporation

In mail you write:

>
>>Sublimation is a material changing from solid to gaseous without going 
> through liquid.  Evaporation is going from liquid to gaseous.
>>- Joseph
>
> Sublimation is being hit by a FGMP at close range...
> ;)
> Roger

No, that's going from solid to *gas* in one step. Going from solid to
*plasma* is something else.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 04:31:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

In mail you write:

>>From: Roger Barr 
>>> If they really want to try it I'd say "Roll 2d6 and pray."
>>
>>The basic game mechanics from CT, and why I prefer it to all the other
>>versions.
>>
>>Alan Bradley
>>alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
>>
> Actually, it works for MT as well, since there is really no TASK to be 
> performed (except perhaps, Last Rights...)
> :)
> Roger Barr

Hmm. You've given me a nasty idea. I'll have to get a copy of the
service for burial at sea, and modify it for burial in space.

Player: "Ok, we jump into the ship in the hangar and fire up the jump
         drive... What happens?" 

Ref: (digs out book, searches for page, and starts reading solemnly)
     "We commit their souls to the deep....."


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 04:40:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > In a message dated 1/6/99 7:19:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>> > shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:
>> >
>> > << And stopping a hungry polar bear requires something more than your
>> >  typical "hunting rifle"! >>
>> >
>> > My friend (who lived in AK) said that everybody thought that the best 
> anti-
>> > bear gun was a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with slugs. The slug will break 
> the
>> > bear's shoulder, and cripple it everytime...
>> >
>> > Ob Trav: carry a LAG? :-)
>> 
>> A Canadaian gunsmith made a bolt action *pistol* to deal with bear and
>> moose. Single shot, .50 call BMG "ball" ammo.
>> 
>> I don't even want to *think* about .50 BMG "hollow point" if such
>> exists. :-)
>> 
>> Nor do I want to *fire* the damned thing!
>
> Oh he _said_ it was 'to deal with bear and moose.' It was built because
> they wanted the baddest pistol that could be carried. If you're talking
> about the Maadi-Griffin, it was available in carbine form too.
>
> The thing is huge...here's a ref:
>
> http://www.prairienet.org/guns/big/mg.htm
>
> and a gif:
>
> http://www.prairienet.org/guns/pixs/lpb.gif
>
> and someone _firing_ it. Fairly average to petite someone, I'd say, too.
>
> http://www.prairienet.org/guns/pixs/tw.gif
>
> This is nothing, there is one gunsmith making a _20mm_ rifle! Take THAT,
> you Star Viking!!!
>
> http://members.aol.com/rpauza/noframe/20mm-n.html

Well, it'll require one *hell* of a lot of paperwork, since anything
above 50 cal is a "destructive device" unless it is black powder. 

But I vaguely recall someone designing an alien race for a wargame.
Said race was larger than humans and a *lot* more massive. Enough so
that they carried 20 mm "small arms". 

Consider, for example, what sort of pistol or rifle intelligent polar
bears would carry. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 13:06:16 +0000
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Re Bagpipes in todays modern army. 

I recall seeing somewhere that pipers were used by the (Canadian) Cameron 
Highlanders during the landings at Dieppe.
M

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 14:30:39 +0100
From: Volker Greimann <greimann@geocities.com>
Subject: Appeal

At 06:32 09.01.99 -0500, you wrote:
>I personally perfer the the "Leroy manuver"! Everything with certain
>names in the "From:" line automatically goes into the circular file, no
>muss, no fuss.
Hey all of You stop it!	
This is getting out of hand.
Yes, some people could learn a lesson or two about manners, 
but all of you who are bitching about it are just as guilty of hata-mongering.
If you really cared and were offended by bad manners and posters that attack, 
THEN GO COMPLAIN PER PRIVATE MAIL!!!!!
Nobody wants to read the rants over and over again on the list.

Apart from that, i have read interesting posts from both Clif and Leroy.
OK, they often annoy people, but dont bitch about it on the list, or you
are no
better! Reply privately to tell them what you think about them. 
DON`T SPAM THE LIST!

BTW: I have had good dealing with Leroy. He sold me some of his old
CT-Stuff and
was very helpful and dependable.

THIS is a TRAVELLER LIST, not a MOMMY, HE HIT ME FIRST-LIST.

Sometimes i feel as if dealing with a bunch of adolescents here.
Volker
- ---
Volker A. Greimann, greimann@geocities.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 08:33:09 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Looking for copies of computer games

In a message dated 1/8/99 7:24:21 AM Central Standard Time,
timmon@primenet.com writes:

<< >Where? I'd love to get my hands on a legit copy of MT1 (actually, I do
have
 >a legit copy of MT2, however the disks are dead. Oh great, I still do have
 >the manuals, though!).
 > >>

Empire Interactive produced a CD-RFOM set of MT 1 and MT 2
You might try them.

Empire Interactive
The Spires 
677 High Road	
North Finchley London N12 0DA UK	
011 44 181 343-7337 voice	
011 44 181 343-7477 fax

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:41:20 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [OT] Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics 

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:

>First you want me to clip everything originally said and now you want me to
>keep it and source it, too?

No, I want you to put a tag like 'Joe Bloggs wrote" at the start of the
post so we can tell which of the multitude of responses you are writing on.
Brevity would be nice, but the source would be a start. I don't believe I
asked you to clip everything originally sent.

>At 150 posts/day, I don't have time to "source" the quotes, especially when
>it seems to be me against the list.

Really. Gosh. That reads more like 'I can't be bothered to source the
quotes', which is strange as at most it is a cut and paste, and some
packages do it automatically.

But I suppose that politeness isn't one of your strong points. As we have
seen repeatedly. Admittedly you've had provokation, but you do that
yourself to others too.

I've argued that you should be here on the list when others disagreed; Now
I start to agree with them - you seem determined to p*** off everyone on
this list, even those who argued for you to be here. Sadly, that's
something that I don't think will stop until you cease behaving like a
petulant teenager(*).

Waiting in hope that Clif will show some email ettiquette.

Dom


(*) Apologies to any other teenagers here.

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1390
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, January 9 1999     Volume 1998 : Number 1391



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Weapons and Such
Re: T4 Alien Archives:  Homeworlds?
Re: Inverse lasers and reality
World Builder Deluxe V3
Traveller's Last Chance
Is Traveller a Science Fiction Roleplaying Game ?
Re: Traveller's Last Chance
Re: Appeal
appologies
Re:  Ihatie Motivations
Re: Is Traveller a Science Fiction Roleplaying Game ?
Re: Red Riding Hood and PsyWar
Re: Subject: Re: Man-Kzin war
Re: Re Bagpipes in todays modern army.
Re: Traveller's Last Chance? 
Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics 
In need of enlightenment
Re: Re Bagpipes in todays modern army.
Re: Traveller's Last Chance
Re: Traveller's Last Chance
Re:  World Building--Biomes
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:15:44 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

 "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:


>As for high school, we weren't allowed to have _any_ sort of wargaming or
>roleplaying club. No Battletech, no Avalon Hill Games, not even Axis &
>Allies. When I took it up with the principal, he stated that wargames and
>roleplaying games were directly linked to teenage suicide.

My high school (UK type - 11 to 18 age range, RC Church funded) actively
supported me in setting up an RPG and wargames club when I was a student
(aged 11). The content didn't bother them, but I suspect some of the more
extreme stuff now would. We regularly played Traveller, AD&D, CoC, RQII,
Paranoia, 2300 and a few others.

My wife's school (see teaches 11-16 Math) allows it's kids to Roleplay -
this involves a few RPGs and also some GW stuff.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 08:22:19 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@bdol10.indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Weapons and Such

More Real World (tm) big gun data...

http://www.theshop.net/nitetrkr/barret_m90.htm
http://www.theshop.net/nitetrkr/barret_mk82.htm
http://www.theshop.net/nitetrkr/browning_50cal.htm

My genetically engineered Shadow Commandos like real
big guns.  (It's an MZ+ campaign set in 2004.)

Shadow said:
>
> But I vaguely recall someone designing an alien race for a
> wargame.  Said race was larger than humans and a *lot* more
> massive. Enough so that they carried 20 mm "small arms".
> 
> Consider, for example, what sort of pistol or rifle intelligent
> polar bears would carry.

Ammo size is a primary concern.  Go with 20 mm caseless.  :-)
Also, at 20 mm you can start building rather complicated rounds
with special penetrators, incendiary, or explosive variants.

Didn't the Stainless Steel Rat use a .75 cal (recoilless) pistol?

- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 08:24:54 -0600
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Re: T4 Alien Archives:  Homeworlds?

Jason,

Typically, what I do when I need to have a planet that doesn't officially exist in 
the domain I use, I create it inside another system.  The officially mapped 
worlds are just one location in a whole star system.  Who's to say that there 
aren't other inhabited or important worlds in the system that the Scout Service 
just didn't put on the maps!?

> 
> 
> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
> I have a question for the TML that may have already been answered 
> some time before I joined the list.  (If it has been answered 
> already, then I apologize for bringing it back up again.  I'm just 
> on a quest for info.)
> 
> Have the minor races from T4: Alien Archives been assigned official 
> homeworlds within the OTU?
> 
> If so, what are they?
> 
> If not, does anyone have any suggestions IYTU?
> 
> Thanks for your time.
> 
> Jason


 -- James Pearson
"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles 
for players to overcome as they go about seeking 
their goals, not to constantly make trouble for them.
This is a very subtle distinction ..."

The Traveller Book, p. 12

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4089

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 08:32:48 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@bdol10.indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Inverse lasers and reality

MJ Dougherty wrote:
>
> Can you please tell this ignorant physicist how your magic
> device works...  and have you filed for patent yet?

Obviously, the laser idea is a dead end.  How about dropping the
cute lines and instead talk about electro-magnetic induction as
a means of invasive audio communication?

- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:24:41 -0000
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: World Builder Deluxe V3

Version 3 of my World Builder Deluxe program has been released. As usual it
is available for download at my website.

Significant additions include:-

1) The ability to generate World Details automatically for all of the worlds
in a Sector.

2) Random number seeding, which if the same seed is used to generate a
world, WBD will always generate the same World Detail results.

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:32:47 -0000
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: Traveller's Last Chance

Why is everyone getting so excited about the release of T5? If anything
everyone who bought T4 should be furious.

I have bought the majority of the T4 rule books and now find that with the
advent of T5 I have probably wasted a lot of money and will probably be
forced to buy the new T5 books when they come out (which will probably have
duplicate information from the T4 books).

Yes, I know many of you will argue that this is progress, but T4 burnt out
in little under the space of two years. The rule books were badly edited and
the rules flawed in places.

I agree the T4 rules are flawed and I hope that Marc Miller learns from the
demise of T4 and produces a superior product. If not then I fear the creator
may ultimately become the destroyer.

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 14:49:44 +0000
From: dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com
Subject: Is Traveller a Science Fiction Roleplaying Game ?

Hi

  Is Traveller whatever version meant to be a Science Fiction Roleplaying
Game ?
 
  I have seen a lot of useful posts, which do not cut it in the real world,
but
in Traveller surely they can be possible if it adds to the enjoyment of the
game.  

  Does hard science need to be so evident in comments on other peoples
suggestions ?  Ok it is useful but I am a fan of the Gizmo that science has
not yet created or is not possible in the Real World.


mailto:Cleon-the-Mad@dial.pipex.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:56:49 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance

In a message dated 1/9/99 9:36:41 AM Eastern Standard Time,
stuart.ferris@virgin.net writes:

<< Why is everyone getting so excited about the release of T5? If anything
 everyone who bought T4 should be furious.
  >>
	I must admit I (and probably many others) felt really burned about the fate
of T4.  I honestly liked T4 alot, when it worked.  The source/background books
were excellent and I liked Emperor's Arsenal too.   While Starships and
Emperor's vehicles books were very irritating.   Nevertheless I played T4 and
had alot of fun--it was Traveller for real.   
	When T5 comes out I will buy it, I mean I had ordered the abortive revised
hard-backed T4 main rule book after all.  One thing I found while playing T4
was that much of the CT material and MT material was still vey useful in T4
(examples:  76 Patrons, "Broadsword",  The Chamax Plague/Horde, Imperial
Encyclopedia, Mercenary, Striker, Spinward marches, Solomain Rim,  MT alien
supplements).  

	They only big not-compatablity between systems was Starship and Vehicle
design specs.    It would be nice if one could use either T4, or MT or High
Guard ship designs in the new version, but if not, I'll design new ships as
needed.  (Although I admit, both in MT and T4 complilations of ground/grav
vehicles were among the last things to come out, and were one of the first
things I wanted).

	But back to the main point,  yes we should all feel burned by the fall of T4,
but Imperium Games deserves the blame and they are gone:  what good would
anger against them do us.   If we ignore T5 and don't support it, then the
result is the real "end of Traveller"  and that's precisely what we don't
want.  
	
	So my suggestion is to keep playing whatever version of Traveller you like
and buy those new Trav products which might be of interest, adventures,
sourcebooks etc.    As for me, I love reading Traveller stuff almost as much
as playing and will buy most of what comes out  (hell, i bought Gurps Trav and
have no interest in playing Gurps system--threw away my Gurps basic years
ago).

	It's funny that on the AD&D discussion list they're bitching and moaning
about the possibility of a third edition, when 2nd ed has been out for 10
years,  here we're really gearing up for edition #6 (if you count Gurps as 5).

			Dave Nelson
	 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 08:52:18 -0700
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Appeal

At 02:30 PM 1/9/99 +0100, you wrote:
>THIS is a TRAVELLER LIST, not a MOMMY, HE HIT ME FIRST-LIST.
>
>Sometimes i feel as if dealing with a bunch of adolescents here.
>Volker

I have to agree with Volker on this one. It should either stop or the list
should be renamed the TBL - Traveller Bitch List. 

Paul

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 11:20:56 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: appologies

Volker,

I appologise if my post bothered you. I did not mean it as an attack or
flame and should have made it clearer. What I meant by it was that if
certain people's posts got to the point of being more annoying than
useful one should just shunt them into the dead file. I did this during
the ROM flame war, and have been doing this with the "Clif" crisis. by
doing this I may miss some useful bits but it does not raise my blood
pressure to the point where I become involved in the flame throwing. 

In other words if someone or some subjects bothers you just ignore it.
Eventually it all dies down and the list returns to normal. In my
experience the more it is ignored, the faster it dies down.

Again, I appologise for the comment.

Mike

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com
"In this same line why do the Brits (no insult intended) have BITS?
Where
is the NATS (North American Traveller's Society)? After all it IS "Yanks
in Space" ;^> why aren't we yanks doing more to promote it?"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 08:55:27 -0800
From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re:  Ihatie Motivations

Some thoughts I had in response to Charles Collins comments on aslan

Aslan didn't rush over, they have been in the area of the Marches for
centuries.  They were in contact with the Zhodani hundreds of years ago,
and had a thriving trade in the Marches in the 500's (IIRC) with Dustspice.
Aslan among the Darrians have provided that empire an elite corp for some
time as well.  With the aslan hunger for land, I would assume they had at
least small colonies in the Marches for centuries.
Tthe ihatei problem in the Marches and Trojan Reach has been brewing for
some time.  It has reached critical mass in the late 'teens.  In TNE
timeline they had no organized Imperial resistance and overwhelmed the
Trojan Reach worlds (more on that below).  In the G:T timeline they are
meeting plenty of resistance.

In BtC the ihatie are described as 'inheriting nothing' and as worthless
failures in the eyes of aslan society.  How does a bunch like this get
ahold of 10,000 dton cruisers and transports full of families?

Hans Rancke examined the motivations of an aslan clan leader.  Where do his
priorities fall, rembering that his main motive is control of his land?
Not only does a clan leader have to consider what other clan leaders are
doing, but he has to consider what all those worthless ihatie are doing.
Without something better to do, they are going to hang around the clan
holdings, attempting to knock off the clan leader get his land.  It would
be better if there are rival clans around, so that they go over there, but
the THEIR ihatie will be sniffing around here.  What do you do?  You can't
give your ihatie anything, it isn't fair to your first born.
You might set up a 'general fund' to ship these ihatie offworld.  This
would almost certainly have to cross clan lines, to avoid the inheritance
taboo.  It would be more of a welfare program.  Multi-clan worlds, or a
cluster of single clan worlds would especially benefit, since they would
not have to deal with each others' ihatie attacks.
The type of ships thus available to the ihatie would vary depending on the
wealth of the region they came from and the number of ihatie it has to deal
with.  The more ihatie or the less wealth, the smaller the ships.  The clan
leaders, only wanting to get rid of the ihatie, not necessarily making them
successful, will primary give them obsolete ships.
So you could have a range of anything, any size.  The only stipulation is
that they are old.  Most would be in the smaller size ranges, at a guess
(without doing an economic analysis of the aslan colonies in the Trojan
Reach).
I would think the transports follow later, only after word of a successful
conquest reaches the home system(s).  I haven't seen either of the aslan
books, so I don't know how cannon this is.  This too would be part of the
welfare program.  The ihatie wouldn't leave if they weren't absolutely sure
they would have families come after them.  No self respecting females would
follow worthless ihatie until they proved they could get land.
BTW there would be zero males in these transports.  Only females looking
for land owning husbands.  Why transport a bunch of rivals after you have
just risked your life fighting for this world, a place in society and a big
harem?

How did the ihatie take Tobia?  Probably without firing a shot.  Just
threaten to.  The aslan and the Tobians both know that in a fight, the
ihatie haven't got a chance.  However, how many of your 20 billion are you
willing to have killed?  How much control can you retain after a billion
are killed, and blame for the deaths pointed at you?  What are a few more
aslan anyway, as long as you can stay in power, ala Vichy?  The leaders of
Tobia, and lots of other worlds, would "sell out", pragmatically of course,
to the aslan invaders if they promised to keep the power structure in
place.  The aslan would only be furry Imperials, after all...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 08:33:06
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Is Traveller a Science Fiction Roleplaying Game ?

At 02:49 PM 1/9/99 +0000, you wrote:

>  Is Traveller whatever version meant to be a Science Fiction Roleplaying
>Game ?
> 
>  I have seen a lot of useful posts, which do not cut it in the real world,
>but in Traveller surely they can be possible if it adds to the enjoyment of 
>the game.  
>
>  Does hard science need to be so evident in comments on other peoples
>suggestions ?  Ok it is useful but I am a fan of the Gizmo that science has
>not yet created or is not possible in the Real World.

Traveller struggles to be a hard SF game.  Hard SF is the sub genre where
you try to keep the science part accurate.  A good example of hard SF can
be found in the works of Dr. Robert L. Forward.

There are three major technological assumptions made by Traveller.  FTL
travel via the jump drive, control of gravity, and cheap, effective fusion
reactors.  Beyond that, the designers have labored to keep the
technological magic to a minimum.

Take for example weapons.  We all agree that the blasters and phaser look
cool, but the fact is that the easist way to damage someone is to smack him
with a club.  A slug-thrower is a small club that works at range.  Without
making some wild-assed guesses about the base technology of a culture, it's
probable that in the future wars will still be fought by men carrying
rifles.  Of course those rifles will be as advanced as my M-16A1 was
compared to a Brown Bess, but the principle will be the same.

Doing this is a good thing in my opinion, since it serves many functions.
It keeps the game consistant; all the equipment plays by the same set of
rules.  It cuts down on the need to explain technology to the players,
since most people are familar enough with the concept of a pistol, you
don't have to stop the game for a long discourse on the apperance,
capabilities and operation of the Gridlore Technologies QQ-37 Atomic Space
Modulator, with Extra Flaam-Seeds!  For us Gearheads, we can expand the
universe rapidly with things like the THUDDD contest.. Hell, go out to my
GT pages and you'll find lots of toys that will work in any Traveller game
because they're designed using the same rules as everybody else's stuff.

The odd, unique Gizmo has a place.  One of my favorite JTAS articles was
the Casual encounter with Finger.  This guy was a gateway to weird
adventures that always involved odd gadgets.  But you have to be careful
about introducing amazing new technologies into the general population.
There is a rule of warfare, that any new technology will be countered
before the end of the conflict it is introduced in.  So if you introduce a
new tech, remember to think out how it will effect the entire campaign
enviroment.


- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 08:46:45
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Red Riding Hood and PsyWar

At 11:32 PM 1/8/99 -0000, you wrote:

>(BTW grenades are NOTHING compared to an AS90 firing within
>100m when you're trying to sleep. And every British soldier I've ever
>met is concerned more about when he's next going to get some shut 
>eye, or a meal, and keeping out of the eye of the Sergeant Major, so he
>doesn't get to pull too many stags!)

Change "every British soldier" to "every soldier since Alexander the Great"
- --

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 08:50:35
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Man-Kzin war

At 04:00 AM 1/9/99 PST, you wrote:

>Hmmm. *That's* why Grandfather is hiding. He discovered not only that
>humans weren't native to Terra, but that they were descended from Pak. 

And the Pak lived closer to the core, which is where the Empress Wave is
coming from...

A-ha!  The Pak are running from the Core Explosion, and the Empress Wave is
a light-speed distress call.  The Pak are about 100ly behind the wave front.

Now I have to write up a Protector for GURPS...
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Pawn of the Droyne Conspiracy.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

UTUP: 0304 B-662D37B-5-5-2

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 08:44:36
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Re Bagpipes in todays modern army.

At 07:36 PM 1/9/99 +1300, you wrote:

>Working from my long distant memories of the BAOR, the highland regiments 
>(IIRC the lowland Scot regiments don't use pipes, though the Irish regiments 
>do) did wear kilts in both world wars and Korea (kahki coloured :*>).

Somewhere in storage I have a history of the Korean War which mentions a
Scottish unit that was being harassed by NK/PLA forces.  The Communists
were shouting, blow horns, all that.  So the Scots had their pipers start
up.  After a few numbers, the bad guys realized they were out done, and
slinked back down the hill.  I'll see if I can dig up the book and give a
proper reference.

IMTU the Imperial Marines use bagpipes.  One of the proudest skill
qualifications is Pipeman, and many in the Navy think that the only reason
the Marines love the pipes is because it annoys the Navy.

When the marines are prepping for a landing, they will jam enemy
communications with recorded pipe and drum corps music.  After a few dozen
renditions of "Sylea the Brave"*, most opponents will give up trying to use
their commo nets.

*There is a grand tradition of renaming songs and adopting tunes for new
uses.  The US national Anthem is sung to the tune of an old drinking song,
and we changed "God Save the Queen" to "My Country 'Tis of Thee."
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 08:55:36
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance? 

At 07:15 PM 1/8/99 -0500, Keven wrote:

>I hear ya.  I haven't had the chacne to 'face' in over a decade.  If it
wasn't for PBEM, I wouldn't be gaming at *all* today.

OK, I'm planning on going to GenCon this year.  Shall we make plans to have
a Traveller party?  I have a friend who microbrews, and he can provide all
the Scout Brew we can drink.  :P

I'm serious about this, and I'll be happy to plan it if enough people
decide to go.

- --

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|  Now at midnight all the agents    |
|     And the superhuman crew        |  
|  Come out and round up everyone    |
|   That knows more than they do     |
|        -Bob Dylan, Desolation Row  |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 08:58:16
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr & Aslan Tactics 

At 11:31 PM 1/8/99 -0800, you wrote:
>...
>>would not want a sniper next to me when the enemy rush my foxhole...  They,
>>tend to take their time to make a good shot...
>
>  You mean you _don't_ get extra VP's for neatness?

Ah, the memories.. my hole mate screaming "WILL YOU F*#!@$G SHOOT!!" as I
slowly and methodically picked of OPFOR targets..

- --

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 09:03:06
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: In need of enlightenment

Could someone give a nice quick formula for determining escape velocity?

Gratzi.
- --

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 11:42:29 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Re Bagpipes in todays modern army.

At 19:36 9-1-99 +1300, Andrew wrote:
>Working from my long distant memories of the BAOR, the highland regiments 
>(IIRC the lowland Scot regiments don't use pipes, though the Irish regiments 
>do) did wear kilts in both world wars and Korea (kahki coloured :*>). Pipers 
>appeared in battle during the 1st WW, they definitely appeared at El
Alamain, 
>they may have been used in Korea (though I'm much less certain on this); but 
>the highlanders definitely no longer use pipes in battle (especially since
pipers 
>are also medics and have rather more pressing duties in combat).

I read somewhere that when Lord Lovat led his commandos off the beach at
Normandy, his piper was right behind him.


James



- ----------     ----------     ----------     ----------
HEAVEN is where all the police are English, the mechanics
German, the lovers Greek, and the cooks French, and it's
all run by the Swiss.  HELL is where all the police are
German, the mechanics French, the lovers Swiss, and the
cooks English, and it's all run by the Greeks.
                      (from a t-shirt I bought in Greece)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 16:52:25 +0100
From: Volker Greimann <greimann@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance

At 09:56 09.01.99 -0500, you wrote:

>	I must admit I (and probably many others) felt really burned about the fate
>of T4.  I honestly liked T4 alot, when it worked.  The source/background
books
>were excellent and I liked Emperor's Arsenal too.   While Starships and
>Emperor's vehicles books were very irritating.  
Dont forget First Survey. Something like that may NEVER happen again!
But i agree, some of T4 was EXCELLENT! Mostly the stuff by BITS. 


>	So my suggestion is to keep playing whatever version of Traveller you like
>and buy those new Trav products which might be of interest, adventures,
>sourcebooks etc.    As for me, I love reading Traveller stuff almost as much
>as playing and will buy most of what comes out  (hell, i bought Gurps Trav
and
>have no interest in playing Gurps system--threw away my Gurps basic years
>ago).
Hear hear! If i reacall correctly, the last time i PLAYED Traveller was
back in the MT-days.
Still, I love to read the books, even if i have no chance or time of playing.
But that will change, that will change.....


>	It's funny that on the AD&D discussion list they're bitching and moaning
>about the possibility of a third edition, when 2nd ed has been out for 10
>years,  here we're really gearing up for edition #6 (if you count Gurps as
5).

Some people I know bought what they considered to be AD&D 3rd.! What was
that redesign all about anyways? Even the typos were not corrected (I still
play a Halfing!)
Volker
- ---
Volker A. Greimann, greimann@geocities.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 16:45:29 +0100
From: Volker Greimann <greimann@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance

At 14:32 09.01.99 +0000, you wrote:
>Why is everyone getting so excited about the release of T5? If anything
>everyone who bought T4 should be furious.
Why? I have probably bought more different Traveller rules set than any one
of you:
CT (Normal and Deluxe)
German CT
MT
G:T
TNE
T4
and will happily buy T5 as well. My favorite Set is still the MT set, but
in every new set there has been something that made it worth buying. I
bought T4 knowning about its flaws, and still mined it for some tidbits. I
am looking forward to T5 as it will be, I hope, better than T4 and
therefore a good lead-in to Traveller for new players. Traveller can now
truely boast that it has something for everyone. What you like, you use,
and the more choice you have, the more quality your game has.

>I have bought the majority of the T4 rule books and now find that with the
>advent of T5 I have probably wasted a lot of money and will probably be
>forced to buy the new T5 books when they come out (which will probably have
>duplicate information from the T4 books).
Welcome to the Club. I have started with German Traveller, and switched to
MT when it came out. The MT set had everything CT missed, a task system,
details of the background (something the CT rules CT sorely missed). Then
MT got discontinued, so I got TNE. Didnt like it as much, but still
continued to buy (only missing the Regency books: -anyone???). TNE got
cancelled, and i had great hopes for T4. Bought it. Being a Gurpsist, i
needed to get G:T as well, and am greatly impressed with it. Qua usability,
it comes second on my list. It didnt have much new stuff, but had it
organized in a different way, so it was well worth the expense. I will also
buy T5, for which I have great hope. And: When i start promoting Traveller
locally again, I will have to have the Rules system to present to the new
players. 

>Yes, I know many of you will argue that this is progress, but T4 burnt out
>in little under the space of two years. The rule books were badly edited and
>the rules flawed in places.
...and we hope T5 will change all that. Traveller had an image of being
slightly bad edited, in Germany it was often considered a bit bland (due to
the German edition, which was a  mediocre translated CT). If T5 is what i
consider perfectly executed, I can say, ok that was the past, but look at
Traveller now. Traveller updated for the 90ties, designwise.

Volker
- ---
Volker A. Greimann, greimann@geocities.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:50:33 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re:  World Building--Biomes

>However, precipitation has a moderating effect on rainfall.

Ummm....errr...

Make that a moderating effect on *temperature*.
  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:59:03 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

In a message dated 1/8/99 2:04:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, semo@pil.net
writes:

<< I digress, I'm not trying to badmouth football. The whole thing just leaves
 a bad taste in my mouth. I was just trying to point out how ludicrous the
 kinds of things they said were.
  >>

It's OK for  (American) football players to be a------s. They can rape,
assault, and vandalize; it's oh boys will be boys; all because football is
such an ingrained American institution. It's a cultural substitute for war,
and tribalism (ie. "the Jets rule-Miami sucks!" or some such drivel). Jocks
are coddled and spoiled and always bailed out of trouble, if they are good.
Agression is rewarded, not punished as agression and physical size are vital
for football. American universities spend enormous amounts of money on
football and basketball, and very little on academics. They say good sports
brings in the money and donations. This is true, but most of this money is
pumped right back into the athletic program.

Contrast this with the intellectuals in America (and this includes gaming).
They are usually seen in school as marginal "nerds", etc. American culture
doesn't appreciate brains. Intellectuals are distrusted as "controlling
elites". Look how intellectuals are portrayed in film. They are geeky buffoons
and their brilliant plans need brawny jocks to carry them out (who always get
the credit and the girl). Thus the moment that a gamer gets in trouble (or any
intellectual for that matter), he/she is slammed by the press and has the
legal book thrown at them. We Americans are morons when it comes to picking
our heros...:-(

When I teach, if I end up coaching (and that is a certainty in Las Vegas, as
this town is sports crazy, and I want a job), I will not let my players get
away with this garbage, anymore than I would let my gamers (though I bet the
gamers will be much less of a discipline problem) in the gaming club I intend
to run...

Sorry for the rant...

Ob Trav: Does the 3I have this sports mania, or anti intellectual bent. or
sensationalist media?

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1391
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.comTraveller-digest     Saturday, January 9 1999     Volume 1998 : Number 1392



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: In need of enlightenment
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1391
In Defence of T4 (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance) Long
Re: Re Bagpipes in todays modern army.
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: escape velocity
Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: T4 Fusion guns
Re: escape velocity 
Re: jumpspace recursion 
Re: Vargr, in combat.
Dtons
Re: Re Bagpipes in todays modern army.
Re: Man-Kzin war
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: The 24 Hour Policy
Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?
Re: Re Bagpipes in todays modern army.
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 19:03:37 +0100 (CET)
From: Steinar Knutsen <sk@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: In need of enlightenment

On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> Could someone give a nice quick formula for determining escape velocity?

v = sqrt(2*g*r)

v = escape velocity
r = distance from center of mass of the planet (or other dense/big
    object)
g = Acceleration of gravity
  = GM/r^2
G = Universal constant of gravity
M = Mass of planet/gargantuan space station/whatever
- -- 
Steinar

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 18:50:19 -0000
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1391

Volker Greimann wrote:-

>Welcome to the Club. I have started with German Traveller, and >switched to
MT when it came out.

Marc Miller may have good intentions, but it is the publishers of Traveller
who are abusing our following of the game. They know we will rush out and
buy the next Traveller publication as soon as it is released. Probably why
Steve Jackson Games bought a license and created the ultimate bastardised
version (which I wouldn't piss on if it was on fire).

Dave Nelson wrote:-

>It's funny that on the AD&D discussion list they're bitching and >moaning
about the possibility of a third edition, when 2nd ed has >been out for 10
years,  here we're really gearing up for edition #6  >(if you count Gurps as
5).'

AD&D has been in print around 30 years and they have only felt it necessary
to revise it 2 times to date. I still play 1st Ed. as in my opinion if it
ain't broke don't fix it. What does that say about Traveller? Someone is
trying to rip us off.

Volker Greimann wrote:-

>...and we hope T5
>If T5 is what i consider perfectly executed, I can say, ok that was >the
past, but look at Traveller now. Traveller updated for the 90ties,
>designwise.

I will not be buying T5 when it comes out. Instead I will wait some time and
assess public opinion. I have sufficient CT, MT & T4 sourcebooks to keep my
happy in my Traveller gaming and unless T5 is really something very special
(and perfectly edited with flawless rules) I won't be buying it at all.

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 10:58:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: In Defence of T4 (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance) Long

> stuart.ferris@virgin.net writes:
> Why is everyone getting so excited about the 
> release of T5? If anything everyone who 
> bought T4 should be furious.

I know the leaning of this group, but I'll stick my neck out anyway.

Look, there were many disappointments with T4 and hard feelings abound
because some, even some on this list, were never paid for their work
on the project.  But how about the rest of the story...

As has been noted, T4 had some very good products and some bombs.  But
all systems do.  Early copies of G:T had wimpy bindings that
disintegrated.  How can that be excused from a company that has been
publishing so "well" for so long?  T:TNE had cartoon artwork that made
Chris Foss' stuff look like Masters.  MT was 80% repackaged CT.  Even
my beloved CT had it's share of duds: I have never used Supplement 2,
The Traveller Adventure was a bad joke and Atlas of the Imperium was
worse.  Yet each of these systems has it's steadfast proponents.  And
with good reason.

T4 had some big problems in it's first published items, but the
important things were fixable.  And the new milieu was enticing.  The
production schedule was nothing short of amazing.  GDW never supported
Traveller with twenty publications in an 18 month time span.  The
rules and setting had more the feel of CT than the iterations in
between.  The magazine had a good format and look-feel.  Pocket
Empires is a great idea and actually can work with a tiny group or
even one-on-one.  Missions of State is a challenge.  The physical
quality is a cut above the T:TNE.

Perhaps the best thing about T4, though, was the fact that it was new.
 It was a re-entry point, too.  I would certainly be on a different
mailing list right now if it weren't for T4.  It got me interested
again after a long absence and prompted me to pull out my boxes of CT
and "get back in the game", so to speak.  Now I wear my T4 t-shirt and
tell the curious about Traveller.  I have published web pages, started
buying CT stuff, and joined mailing lists and a PBeM.  For me T4 will
always have a place in my heart and on my bookshelf.  Between 1986 and
1996 I grew to think that maybe Traveller had died off.  Today we are
both quickened.  Works for me!

Now a few words about you - do you remember the basic set?  Were you
able to open that box, take out those little black books and have some
fun?  So what happened to you?  How come you can't be happy with less
than a full bore, pre-arranged, fleshed out, infallible system?  You
hide behind the excuse, "Times have changed, RPGs have advanced,
Traveller has to compete or be left behind."  Poppycock, I say.  CT
succeeded with me because it was simple and sensible compared to D&D. 
I could create anything, do anything, try anything.  And each GMs
universe was so different that the game was totally new when played
with a different group, yet the mechanics were the same.  In my mind
Traveller was the first universal role play system.  And 2d6 is still
the most powerful system because it has suspense and yet is instantly
understood.  No one is ammune to that shiver that goes up your spine
when someone rolls "snake eyes".  Anyway, consider yourself chastised.
;-]



 

==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
IMTU 0601 tc++ tm !tn t4 ?tg ge- 3i pi ta+ he+ 
http://come.to/traveller

Visit the "Subsidized Merchant" - http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 13:59:36 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Re Bagpipes in todays modern army.

At 08:44 9-1-99, you wrote:
>IMTU the Imperial Marines use bagpipes.  One of the proudest skill
>qualifications is Pipeman, and many in the Navy think that the only reason
>the Marines love the pipes is because it annoys the Navy.
>
>When the marines are prepping for a landing, they will jam enemy
>communications with recorded pipe and drum corps music.  After a few dozen
>renditions of "Sylea the Brave"*, most opponents will give up trying to use
>their commo nets.

See Jerry Pournelle's CoDominium stories. 8)  "Bagpipes at four AM can be a
frightening thing, Colonel."


James

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:51:55 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

SD Mooney said:

>My high school (UK type - 11 to 18 age range, RC Church funded) actively
>supported me in setting up an RPG and wargames club when I was a student
>(aged 11). The content didn't bother them, but I suspect some of the more
<rest of post snipped>

Ah, but I bet you britons (is that the right word? if not, I apologize)
don't quite buy into the "kid who is into roleplaying is far more likely to
kill himself" myth.

The media over here gets its hooks into what it thinks are "juicy tidbits"
and then slams them all over in short order. Every newswriter is a pop
psychologist over here. <sigh>


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:52:17 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: escape velocity

> Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 09:03:06
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> Subject: In need of enlightenment
> 
> Could someone give a nice quick formula for determining escape velocity?
> 

From the sci.space.* newsgroup faq list:

<http://www.lib.ox.ac.uk/internet/news/faq/archive/space.math.html>

 Vc	= sqrt(M * G / r)
 Vesc 	= sqrt(2 * M * G / r) = sqrt(2) * Vc

where:

3.986e14 m^3/s^2 (4e14)  	= Gravitational constant times mass of Earth (M *
G)
6371 km (6400)  		= Mean radius of Earth (r0)

You should be able to use these figures and plug in M and r as multiples of
Earth's mass and radius. Note that Vesc is different on the ground and in
orbit (r > r0).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 13:53:55 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?

On 01/08/99 at 02:10 PM,  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> said:

>> A quick question to everyone on the TML:
 
>> How many people would like to see an 'official' licensed play by mail/email
>> version of Traveller ? One with all the background of the Traveller
>> universe, but with an intuitive command system for performing actions and
>> actual roleplaying ? One that would allow thousands of players to play
>> together at the same time with and against each other ? One that is played
>> regularly and has many levels of complexity so that it makes the game
>> enjoyable for new players as well as Traveller veterans ?
 
>> Anyone interested ? Feedback ? Thoughts ?

Interested, yes.

Personally, I like the roleplaying aspects of Traveller a lot more
than the wargame or political/empire building elements.  I would
*not* be especially interested in an automated "Trillion Credit
Squadron" or "Pocket Empires."  

What I would be *very* interested in, is software that focused
making it easier for groups of players to *roleplay* in the
Traveller universe.

So, what do *you* have in mind?

>Can you make the software Linux compatible, too?

More to the point will you, *please*, plan, from the start, to make
it NON-PLATFORM specific?  Will you write the client-end in pure
java, so people with Macs, Linux/Unix, OS2, DOS, *and* Windows based
systems can all play with the same features and interface?


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 14:02:02 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

On 01/08/99 at 07:30 PM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:

>Or, the hydrogen gas used to inflate the jump bubble (cf FFS2) mixes
>with the oxygen/nitrogen atmosphere in the seconds before jump and
>detonates before jump insertion is complete, totally destroying both
>ships.

IMTU, jump is through an artificially created wormhole (that's
*part* of what all the hydrogen is for).

GM to player:  "So, you want to create a wormhole in the middle of
the passenger lounge, eh?"  ;->

No, Bruce, Craig, Suz, Tim, Keven, James, Carlos, and Greg, IMTU,
you can't do it and if your characters try they'll damage or (more
probably) destroy both ships, and we'll get to create new
characters.  ;->


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 15:20:40 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

In a message dated 1/9/99 1:06:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, Sethkimmel@aol.com
writes:

<< 
 They are usually seen in school as marginal "nerds", etc. American culture
 doesn't appreciate brains. Intellectuals are distrusted as "controlling
 elites". Look how intellectuals are portrayed in film. They are geeky
buffoons
 and their brilliant plans need brawny jocks to carry them out (who always get
 the credit and the girl). Thus the moment that a gamer gets in trouble (or
any
 intellectual for that matter), he/she is slammed by the press and has the
 legal book thrown at them. We Americans are morons when it comes to picking
 our heros...:-( >>

	At least intellectuals don't come off as bad as businessmen in films, we can
be thnkful for that!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 14:24:22 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: T4 Fusion guns

On 01/08/99 at 07:40 PM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:

>>...the general view now of TNE'/T4's magical "Grav focus >>lasers"
>>is that they have a gravity wave travelling with the laser pulse
>>to keep it collimated.

That's how it works IMTU.

>>The wave is too weak to be a weapon itself - about a G or two for a
>>millisecond - but could produce a "whumm..." and/or slightly shake a ship
>>in a near-miss. You could imagine firing the grav pulse without the
>>laser to give people a wake-up call.

And, IMTU, that's how you "fire a shot across their bow." ;->

>Or you could use the grav pulse (which must move at the speed of
>light) and use it to accelerate and guide a stream of plasma from a
>plasma gun to use against enemy vessels? Hey presto, HG plasma and
>fusion guns become viable again?

>Or is there a major flaw in my thinking?

Well...in the *orthodox* TU you probably do.  The grav pulse just
doesn't have the power to accelerate a stream of plasma up to useful
velocities for ship-to-ship combat.  The only reason it works with
lasers is that both are already ls beams.

OTOH, a weapon that created a rapid series of grav-pulses, each of
which accellerated the plasma just a little more, *might* make
fusion/plasma weapons handwavable for very, *very* short ranges.
The problem is that the energy needed to accellerate the plasma
might be too great, and even if not would probably be more
effectively used in other ways...like powering more lasers.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 15:32:33 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: escape velocity 

> > Could someone give a nice quick formula for determining escape velocity?
> > 
> 
> >From the sci.space.* newsgroup faq list:
> 
> <http://www.lib.ox.ac.uk/internet/news/faq/archive/space.math.html>
> 
>  Vc	= sqrt(M * G / r)
>  Vesc 	= sqrt(2 * M * G / r) = sqrt(2) * Vc
> 
> where:
> 
> 3.986e14 m^3/s^2 (4e14)  	= Gravitational constant times mass of Earth (M *
> G)
> 6371 km (6400)  		= Mean radius of Earth (r0)
> 
> You should be able to use these figures and plug in M and r as multiples of
> Earth's mass and radius. Note that Vesc is different on the ground and in
> orbit (r > r0).

Cool.

Anybody got a quickie formula for calculating surface gravity laying around someplace?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 15:35:16 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion 

> IMTU, jump is through an artificially created wormhole (that's
> *part* of what all the hydrogen is for).
> 
> GM to player:  "So, you want to create a wormhole in the middle of
> the passenger lounge, eh?"  ;->
> 
> No, Bruce, Craig, Suz, Tim, Keven, James, Carlos, and Greg, IMTU,
> you can't do it and if your characters try they'll damage or (more
> probably) destroy both ships, and we'll get to create new
> characters.  ;->

Kuzov might be crazy enough to let himself get drafted for a hot drop on Flora, but he's *NOT* crazy enough to have a fistfight with the laws of physics.  The laws' *lawyers*, OTOT...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 15:24:01 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr, in combat.

On 01/08/99 at 09:19 AM,  Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) said:

>"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
>>There's a tendency (especially, I seem to recall among teenage gamers) to
>>write in stuff becasue it "sound cool", which upon examination doesn't
>>work.

Ain't *that* the truth! ;->

>>I refer to inverse laser microphones and stuff like that - a laser capable
>>of inducing vibrations (sound) in a metal structure would have to do so by
>>hitting it with a great many of those quantised engergy packets in order
>>to get the metal moving.

>My friend the physicist doesn't know anything about "inverse laser
>microphones". He did mutter sarcastically that he supposed an
>"inverse flashlight" made things darker... and wasn't I playing
>Traveller, not D&D?

Hee!  Hee!  "Inverse laser microphone" should have been described as
a modulated laser...that's what Clif is describing, I think...and I
don't see why it wouldn't work...in theory.  However, it would
probably work *very* poorly. ;->

We *can* modulate a laser, it's the basis behind laser comms after
all.  Such a beam striking a ship hull, would cause waves that
propagate through to the inside.  IF these waves were still strong
enough to vibrate the air inside the ship in the right frequencies
you would get audible sound. That sound *could* be a howl.

However, Clif's "howler" doesn't seem practical (even *if* possible)
in Traveller-reality.  The amount of energy needed to create
vibrations strong enough to create a howl like sound would be so
high as to, probably, make it's use prohibitive for communication,
IOW's it would just be an inefficient pulse laser.  Additionally, to
get the right frequencies of sound inside the ship would be next to
impossible, just because each ship hull would have different armor
thicknesses, materials, and things attached to it.

BTW, and I'm NOT going to get involved in Vargr combat tactics, but
where did the idea that canines howl to announce the intention of
combat come from?  I've never heard that animals in the canine
family, dog, wolf, coyote, jackal howl *before* attacking, and they
never have in attacks I've seen.  If it was a dominance or defense
attack, there was barking, whimpering and growling, yes, but not
full-throated howling.  If the attack was predatory it began silently
with barks, growls and yips taking place *during*, but not before.

So, why *do* canines howl?  I suggest it is as a form of
communication announcing and marking their territory, and announcing
their location and identity to the rest of their pack.

Do Vargr howl?  It wouldn't surprise me if they did, but not in the
way, or for the reasons, Clif suggests.

Do Vargr bark and growl?  That wouldn't surprise me either, but it
would surprise me if the sounds a Vargr *normally* makes are any
closer to those of dog or wolf than human sounds are to chimps and
bonos.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 15:57:45 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Dtons

Anybody know why the dton was expanded from 13.5 m^3 in MT to 14 m^3 in
TNE?  Was it just to make the math easier for gearheads, or was there
another reason?


James

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 21:46:50 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Re Bagpipes in todays modern army.

Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>I recall seeing somewhere that pipers were used by the (Canadian) Cameron
>Highlanders during the landings at Dieppe.

The Black Watch used them during El Alamein.

Where any of the Scottish Regiments in the Falklands War?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:00:07 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Man-Kzin war

>Fusion rockets weren't the most efficient drives the humans had. Check
>out "The Warriors", the story of first contact between humans and
>Kzinti. The humans had a ship that had reaction drive that gave it an
>acceleration somewhere between 1/100th and 1/10th g. Not even worth
>paying attention to, right?

>Only thing is, it was a *photon* drive. In other words, a laser. And a
>laser *that* powerful can be used for carving up asteroids, much less
>Kzin warships.

At 200 G, Kzin warships should be able to dance/evade laser fire at a 
a hundred thousand km, and hammer terran ships, laser and all, into
pate with kinetic weapons. Not even a challenge (unless Kzin are too
stupid to evade and/or prejudiced against kinetic weapons and/or the
Kzin reactionless drive is one of the type where you regain your initial
velocity when you turn the drive off.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 21:45:01 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>Hmm. You've given me a nasty idea. I'll have to get a copy of the
>service for burial at sea, and modify it for burial in space.
>
>Player: "Ok, we jump into the ship in the hangar and fire up the jump
>         drive... What happens?"
>
>Ref: (digs out book, searches for page, and starts reading solemnly)
>     "We commit their souls to the deep....."

If you do it, please post it....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 21:40:09 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: The 24 Hour Policy

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:

>>or admit that they were a "duplicitous fool who never really
>>believed what he was posting and was mostly lying anyway".
>
>  OTOH, there was Leroy, who take himself rather too seriously.
>
>  Hey, "Clif", any opinions on the TL of the RoM?

<sulk>

I proposed the think about it and cool off stuff, and asked the RoM
question when Clif started the first time...

:-( Bah! Plagiarists!

</sulk>

Dom ;-)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 17:11:28 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?

MindShift Design wrote:

> A quick question to everyone on the TML:
>
> How many people would like to see an 'official' licensed play by mail/email
> version of Traveller ? One with all the background of the Traveller
> universe, but with an intuitive command system for performing actions and
> actual roleplaying ? One that would allow thousands of players to play
> together at the same time with and against each other ?

Thousands?  10s would be plenty.

> One that is played
> regularly and has many levels of complexity so that it makes the game
> enjoyable for new players as well as Traveller veterans ?
>
> Anyone interested ? Feedback ? Thoughts ?

It might be interesting but I think to do it right, you'd need a team of GMs
to coordinate smaller groups and individuals and to share the load.
But assuming you could get such a team together, it would be cool
to have crossing theme lines where players might be working against
each other, and not knowing if the people they talk to are players
or NPCs.

Timing might be tough though, if player groups iinersect each other.

I'm game though.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 17:17:51 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Re Bagpipes in todays modern army.

Derrick Jones wrote:

> I seem to remember, Clif, that certain highland regiments wore
> the kilt during WW2, and this demoralised the German forces,
> who thought they 'were fighting women'*,

You mean the highland regiments didn't take their kilts off as
the auld highlanders used to?  I wonder what effect on German
morale that would have had?

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 15:42:21 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

On 01/08/99 at 08:59 AM,  Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) said:

>AveNelso@aol.com writes:
>>There is also a new factor in the mix as well, computer games.
>>When RPG's are compared to computer games, they seem rather tame
>>(especially a nice, nearly stodgy game like Traveller).

Good thing you said *nearly* stodgy. ;->

>I disagree. Computer games leave very little to the imagination, and
>give the players far fewer choices than a role-playing game.

>Computer games tend to appeal to kids who spend time watching TV
>rather than reading books.

I agree with that.  Personally, I'm not a big fan of computer games
that call themselves rpgs.  There is a place for them, just as there
is a place for solitare card games, but no one is suggesting that
poker or bridge should be replaced by computer-poker or
computer-bridge.  It's the interaction of several humans that make
most card games interesting to me, just as it is the interaction of
several humans (one of whom is the Ref) that interest me in rpgs.
 
I think a great marriage of rpgs and computers *is* possible.  You
would have a system where several people could participate in a
universe presented through a computer, but where the plot and
interactions between that universe and the PC's were controlled
*interactively* by the GM.  This is where MUD/MUSH/MOO, PBEM, IRC
and ICQ games are headed, but haven't gotten to yet...IMO.

But this has nothing to do with Traveller's Last Chance. ;-> 


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1392
***********************************

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Traveller-digest     Saturday, January 9 1999     Volume 1998 : Number 1393



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1387
Re: Re Bagpipes in todays modern army.
Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: jumpspace recursion
Re: Traveller's Last Chance? 
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: jumpspace recursion 
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1392
Re: Bagpipes in todays modern army
Re: In Defence of T4 (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance) Long
Re: Appeal
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Traveller's Last Chance? 
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1392
Re: jumpspace recursion 
Age of TML members.
Re: Bagpipes in todays modern army
Re: Traveller's Last Chance? 
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 21:33:18 -0000
From: "A. O'Mary" <omary@my-dejanews.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1387

>
>Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:20:19 +0000
>From: Martin Hardgrave 
>Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion
>
>In message , Erwin Fritz 
>writes
>>Anyone read Frederick Pohl's Gateway? I'd probably play it like that. You count
>>up how much food you have, and divide by two. If you haven't emerged from jump
>>space by then, you start drawing lots for suicides.
>
>Surely an arm or leg here and there at the start?  A full size body
>(with careful carving) should feed about 120 people.
>- -- 
>Martin Hardgrave

"What, with a gamy leg?"
"You needn't eat the leg. Look at that arm. There's plenty of good meat there."
"Personally, sir, I'd rather eat Perkins..."

ALO


- -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/  Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 17:25:09 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Re Bagpipes in todays modern army.

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

> IMTU the Imperial Marines use bagpipes.  One of the proudest skill
> qualifications is Pipeman, and many in the Navy think that the only reason
> the Marines love the pipes is because it annoys the Navy.

Great idea!

> *There is a grand tradition of renaming songs and adopting tunes for new
> uses.  The US national Anthem is sung to the tune of an old drinking song,

Really?  That explains why only a handfull of singers on the planet have the
necessary vocal range to sing the song correctly.  IIRC, its greater than 4
octaves.
Of course, I prefer Marvin Gaye's rendition. Not many countries have anthems
capable of so much soul and funk.  ;-)

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 17:46:21 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> What I would be *very* interested in, is software that focused
> making it easier for groups of players to *roleplay* in the
> Traveller universe.
>
> So, what do *you* have in mind?
>
> >Can you make the software Linux compatible, too?
>
> More to the point will you, *please*, plan, from the start, to make
> it NON-PLATFORM specific?  Will you write the client-end in pure
> java, so people with Macs, Linux/Unix, OS2, DOS, *and* Windows based
> systems can all play with the same features and interface?
>
> Eris

Theres some software being tested now that along these lines.
(PC only though at this point) But the idea is good.  Its called
Infinite Worlds by Black Isle (www.blackisle.com).  I think
its only for fantasy worlds, but the idea is what important here.

I can't get my brother and friends interested in Traveller PBeM.
What they want is a software front end that contains a GM-created
and controlled and created environment and allows a number of
players on clients to play together.  Ideally it has voice communication
as well.

Black Isle's Baldur's Gate seems to have a working model for
the clien side of it (for PCs), how the players can work together in
the same environment (and the company I work for has the voice
software - www.resounding.com).  However, for a good environment,
you need a lot of data on the client's system.  Updating on the net wouldn't
be feasible currently.

I think Java-native client would also be a nightmare at this point.  It would
be easier to make a PC version and then port to Mac and other OSs.
Also a nightmare but some internet games are successfully cross-platform
(such as WarBirds - www.imaginconline.com).

The basic idea my brother and I have had is that you put all the software
and data files on CDs and each client would need one.  The GM then
creates the envirnoment by selecting artwork, texture maps, terrains,
objects, AI controlled NPCs, etc., and putting them together.  That way
the clients just need to be told which object or texture to use on their
front-end.  Different CDs could have different sets of objects, art and
npcs/monsters, so you could have a generic fantasy, generic Sci-Fi,
Traveller-licensed, etc. CD for GMs to work with.

Mutli-platform is an ideal, but more platforms = less features, at least
until Java lives up to its ideals.  And the money is in the PC market
at this point.  As much as I'd love a  multi-platform traveller
multiplayer environment, I think thats a long way off.  However,
a PC-Traveller for single or multi-player is feasible right now.

I wish Marc would license Traveller to Black Isle.  I think they
could do for a T5, and even G:T what Baldur's Gate is doing
for AD&D.

Sorry to ramble.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 17:47:30 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

"Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:

> Kuzov might be crazy enough to let himself get drafted for a hot drop on Flora, but he's *NOT* crazy enough to have a fistfight with the laws of physics.  The laws' *lawyers*, OTOT...

Give me a minute to roll up a vicarious Traveller lawyer, Keven, and you can
take you best shot.  ;-)

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:45:05 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

In a message dated 1/9/99 5:33:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, eris@gulf.net
writes:

<< 
 Good thing you said *nearly* stodgy. ;->
  >>
	What are you talking about,   Stodginess is a high complement!  Shows respect
for your elders, betters and your emperor   ;)
		Dave  "Dr Stodgicus" Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 17:26:49 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> No, Bruce, Craig, Suz, Tim, Keven, James, Carlos, and Greg, IMTU,
> you can't do it and if your characters try they'll damage or (more
> probably) destroy both ships, and we'll get to create new
> characters.  ;->

If you PBeM needs a 'jump' start, will you be taking on any new recruits?

Gruesome pun intended.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:45:49 -0500
From: "Dan Eveland" <develand@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance? 

I'm going.  I have already submitted three GURPS: Traveller games to run.
Count me in for some Scout's Brew!

Dan



- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?


>At 07:15 PM 1/8/99 -0500, Keven wrote:
>
>>I hear ya.  I haven't had the chacne to 'face' in over a decade.  If it
>wasn't for PBEM, I wouldn't be gaming at *all* today.
>
>OK, I'm planning on going to GenCon this year.  Shall we make plans to have
>a Traveller party?  I have a friend who microbrews, and he can provide all
>the Scout Brew we can drink.  :P
>
>I'm serious about this, and I'll be happy to plan it if enough people
>decide to go.
>
>--
>
>+------------------------------------+
>| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
>|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
>+------------------------------------+
>|  Now at midnight all the agents    |
>|     And the superhuman crew        |
>|  Come out and round up everyone    |
>|   That knows more than they do     |
>|        -Bob Dylan, Desolation Row  |
>+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 17:03:10 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

On 01/08/99 at 07:15 PM,  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> said:

>> I always got kind of depressed when I'd read "The Dragon" or "Challenge" and
>> see people way out in the middle of nowhere looking for nearby people to
>> play. I'm just wired that way though :^/

>I hear ya.  I haven't had the chacne to 'face' in over a decade.  If
>it wasn't for PBEM, I wouldn't be gaming at *all* today.

Ain't *that* the truth!  

You know, we should organize a Traveller only convention this summer
and spend a week playing the game we love...FTF.  We could call it
"The Moot!" ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 17:59:30 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion 

> > Kuzov might be crazy enough to let himself get drafted for a hot drop on Flora, but he's *NOT* crazy enough to have a fistfight with the laws of physics.  The laws' *lawyers*, OTOT...
> 
> Give me a minute to roll up a vicarious Traveller lawyer, Keven, and you can
> take you best shot.  ;-)

"Da, tovarisch!  Welcome to Vargr-style 'brawling bar'.  One free punch, then 
*MY* turn!!"

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:02:06 -0000
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1392

Chris Seamans wrote:-

>Ah, but I bet you britons (is that the right word? if not, I apologize)
>don't quite buy into the "kid who is into roleplaying is far more likely
>to kill himself" myth.

'Britons' it depends what part of Britain you come from. As I am from
Scotland you can call me a Scot. The English south of the border can be
called B*st*rds. ;-) No offence to my English compadres.

In the UK RPGer's are referred to usually as 'sad, lonely, miserable
b*st*rds who wouldn't know what a woman was if it came up an bit them on the
butt' (I'm using an Americanism there, we would normally say arse).

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:07:48 -0000
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: Bagpipes in todays modern army

Derrick Jones wrote:

>> I seem to remember, Clif, that certain highland regiments wore
>> the kilt during WW2, and this demoralised the German forces,
>> who thought they 'were fighting women'*,

Steve Daniels wrote:

>You mean the highland regiments didn't take their kilts off as
>the auld highlanders used to?  I wonder what effect on German
>morale that would have had?

Scotsmen never removed their kilts when faced by the enemy. Not a good idea
when faced by an enemy to have your kilt round your ankles. They would
either perform a 'Sunny' or a 'Moony' i.e. Lift the kilt to show Genitalia
or lift the kilt to show the buttocks.

It is still quite a common occurance these days at Scottish weddings, well
all the ones I have been too.

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:14:32 -0000
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: In Defence of T4 (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance) Long

I wrote:-

>> Why is everyone getting so excited about the
>> release of T5? If anything everyone who
>> bought T4 should be furious.

Sword Worlder wrote:-

>I know the leaning of this group, but I'll stick my neck out anyway

No, no, your missing my point. I liked T4 too. I felt it had the right
balance between CT and Mt. I also really love the Milieu 0 setting and my
campaign is set in it. My point was that due to the incompetence of Imperium
Games T4 is no more and we now have T5 being thrust upon us.

>Now a few words about you - do you remember the basic set?  >Were you able
to open that box, take out those little black books >and have some fun?  So
what happened to you?  How come you >can't be happy with less than a full
bore, pre-arranged, fleshed out, >infallible system?

No offense intended but might your profession be school teacher? I have
played Traveller since it was first brought out in the UK (i.e. over 15
years). I have a large collection of CT, MT and T4 books and take great
delight in their content. What I object to is spending hard earned money on
a product that is not merchantable standard. Editorial problems and flawed
rules are unforgiveable in a gaming system. Many times I have received a T4
book from my mail order supplier only to be disappointed by the books poor
content. Only Pocket Empires and Psionics Institutes stand out as the two
highlights of the system.

Traveller doesn't have to compete, in the RPG world it is almost unique. How
many gaming systems excepting AD&D have lasted more than 20 years. It is
RPGing in general that is in demise.

Out of interest, how many people on this mailing list are below 25 years of
age?

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 18:10:20 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Appeal

Volker said:

>THEN GO COMPLAIN PER PRIVATE MAIL!!!!!


It's not merely a matter of manners. It's a matter of direct insults. In the
time I've been on this list, I've seen very few folks resort to name
calling. Clif has not only done it repeatedly, he's done it crudely. At one
point during the Vargr tactics discussion he called Doug Berry a j*rkoff.

Boy, that's what I love to see. That is also what set me off.

>Nobody wants to read the rants over and over again on the list.


Fine, however, you've added to the rants yourself now. You could have just
as easily made this appeal via private email, but you didn't.

On the other hand, I don't know about anyone else, personally, I don't want
to see my fellow Travellers, who I've come to like and whose posts I enjoy
get called a _j*rkoff_ because they disagree with someone else's posts!

Nor do I want to be insulted by someone for disagreeing with their posts.

If such behavior is tolerated by us, as the members of the TML, then,
personally, I'm out of here.

>THIS is a TRAVELLER LIST, not a MOMMY, HE HIT ME FIRST-LIST.


You're right, this is the Traveller list, Volker, not the "<blank> is a
j*rkoff because he doesn't agree with me list." If that's the way you'd like
the list to go, then I'll be happy to leave.

My apologies to all for the use of implied profanity in this posting. I did
it to make a point. Personal insults are one thing. If it was simply me that
Clif was insulting I'd have just ignored him. However, it wasn't just me,
and it wasn't just about "hot button" topics like politics or religion. When
such activity gets dragged into normal, Traveller related discussion, that's
it for me, personally.

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 23:27:59 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:03:02 -0500, you wrote:

>Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:15:44 +0000
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
>
> "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:
>
>
>>As for high school, we weren't allowed to have _any_ sort of wargaming or
>>roleplaying club. No Battletech, no Avalon Hill Games, not even Axis &
>>Allies. When I took it up with the principal, he stated that wargames and
>>roleplaying games were directly linked to teenage suicide.
>
>My high school (UK type - 11 to 18 age range, RC Church funded) actively
>supported me in setting up an RPG and wargames club when I was a student
>(aged 11). The content didn't bother them, but I suspect some of the more
>extreme stuff now would. We regularly played Traveller, AD&D, CoC, RQII,
>Paranoia, 2300 and a few others.
>
>My wife's school (see teaches 11-16 Math) allows it's kids to Roleplay -
>this involves a few RPGs and also some GW stuff.

Well, when I was at school, role playing wasn't invented <sigh>. However, at the
schools I have taught at for the last 22 years (Government High Schools -- Years
7-12, or around 11-18 years of age) there has been no policy at all about role
playing. At one I actually ran a role playing campaign with some of the students
at lunchtime for around a year and a half before I transferred elsewhere.

At my current school the only role playing (related) activity I am aware of is
that there is a hard core of a dozen or so students who tend to be in the
Library at Recess and Lunch playing Tragic: The Addiction. There must be more
than that, but not at school, as the kids are also reasonably aware of what
"Dungeons and Dragons" is (mainly when I tell them what I do with *my*
Saturdays).

I thought banning them was very much an American fundamentalist inspired thing?

Phil
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au | www.fandom.net/~PGD/index.htm
                 | mcgregor@locs.org (emergencies only!!)
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YES! StaRPlay:Armageddon and Dark Star are now available from www.hyperbooks.com
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU); Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 18:21:28 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance? 

> On 01/08/99 at 07:15 PM,  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> said:
> 
> >> I always got kind of depressed when I'd read "The Dragon" or "Challenge" and
> >> see people way out in the middle of nowhere looking for nearby people to
> >> play. I'm just wired that way though :^/
> 
> >I hear ya.  I haven't had the chacne to 'face' in over a decade.  If
> >it wasn't for PBEM, I wouldn't be gaming at *all* today.
> 
> Ain't *that* the truth!  
> 
> You know, we should organize a Traveller only convention this summer
> and spend a week playing the game we love...FTF.  We could call it
> "The Moot!" ;->

Seems to me that Toledo is centrally located...  <grin>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 18:13:22 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

>You know, we should organize a Traveller only convention this summer
>and spend a week playing the game we love...FTF.  We could call it
>"The Moot!" ;->


Sounds great to me. Where?


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 18:28:19 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1392

Stuart Ferris said:

>'Britons' it depends what part of Britain you come from. As I am from
>Scotland you can call me a Scot. The English south of the border can be
>called B*st*rds. ;-) No offence to my English compadres.


Okay, to ObTrav the discussion: What is the proper word for Imperial
citizens? Is it 'imperials'? I use that one to refer to the navy, the
marines, and the direct _Imperial_ types. Is there a generic word for the
dirthuggers of the Imperium? You know, the people who are citizens of
specific planets, but not specifically involved in Imperial affairs? Is such
a distinction needed?

>In the UK RPGer's are referred to usually as 'sad, lonely, miserable
>b*st*rds who wouldn't know what a woman was if it came up an bit them on
the
>butt' (I'm using an Americanism there, we would normally say arse).


We refer to them that way here, too! :^) Although, I must admit, in certain
circles games like Vampire: The Masquerade have done wonders for the "chic"
of roleplaying...


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 15:10:38 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion 

> From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@glasscity.net>
> Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion 
> 
> > > > we have removed the variable of gravity from the equation, not the
rest
> > of
> > > > the variables...
> > > 
> > > It doesn't whack out the mass, though.
> > 
> > You will note that I did say "we have removed the variable of gravity
from
> > the equation" not "we have removed the variable of mass from the
> > equation"...  
> 
> Good point.  But the mass of the launching ship would still affect the
launched ship.

This is true, but you have to remember that gravity affects everything
around it, & at 100 Diameters the level of gravity is in the microgravity
range...  But, with the amount of energy released when the second ship
jumps inside of the first...  I would have to say the amount of energy
comming off the second would destroy the first ship...  As the first ship
explodes, the second ship would follow suit...  In other words, as I like
to say, "Ships go boom"...

> Keven

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 18:31:45 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Age of TML members.

Stuart Ferris said:

>Out of interest, how many people on this mailing list are below 25 years of
>age?


You've got one here. Ask the same question again in two years and I'll have
to answer it differently.

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 18:52:27 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Bagpipes in todays modern army

Stuart Ferris wrote:

> Scotsmen never removed their kilts when faced by the enemy.

Then a lot of history books need to be fixed.
I've read countless reports of this being a common occurrence
among the Scottish highlanders, long ago.  This story relating to
the reasoning for not wearing anything under the kilt:  throw off
the kilt and your naked (maybe a shirt).  The reason for doing that
being that the old kilts, which were yards and yards of fabric
wrapped around the waist and shoulder, was an encumberance
and danger when fighting close in.  Especially if they got wet.

And of course, the intimidating sight of dozens of blue-painted, sword-wielding

naked highlanders charging downhill at you with the bagpipes blaring in the
background and setting your teeth on edge would certainly give rise
to a morale check.

I'm not talking about Rob Roy and William Wallace era, but
long before that.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 16:51:20 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance? 

> From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@glasscity.net>
> Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance? 
> 
> > >> I always got kind of depressed when I'd read "The Dragon" or
"Challenge" and
> > >> see people way out in the middle of nowhere looking for nearby
people to
> > >> play. I'm just wired that way though :^/
> > >I hear ya.  I haven't had the chacne to 'face' in over a decade.  If
> > >it wasn't for PBEM, I wouldn't be gaming at *all* today.
> > Ain't *that* the truth!  
> > You know, we should organize a Traveller only convention this summer
> > and spend a week playing the game we love...FTF.  We could call it
> > "The Moot!" ;->
> Seems to me that Toledo is centrally located...  <grin>

Yes, & while we are there, we can take in a Mud-hens game...  *weg*

> Keven

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 18:52:04 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

>I thought banning them was very much an American fundamentalist inspired
thing?


With all honesty, at least on the East Coast of the U.S., that movement
wasn't quite as big as it sounds. However, more secular materials (such as
Rona Jaffe's "Mazes & Monsters") had much more of an impact. The book,
"Mazes & Monsters" sold well, and it was really nothing more than a pathetic
attempt to cash in on the newfound popularity of Dungeons & Dragons (about
1981 or so, major toy chains started picking up on the game, and in short
order a tremendously bad cartoon series would make an appearance).
Roleplaying-specific stores turned into chains (in the case of 'The Compleat
Strategist').

Anyway, "Mazes & Monsters" (which starred Tom Hanks) was made into a
television movie. It spawned a slew of imitations... Although the book and
the movie are hardly remembered, people _do_ still remember certain elements
of the movie as fact. The basic story is that an emotionally disturbed young
man became seriously and (presumably incurably) mentally and and withdrew
into a fantasy world as a result of his brush with "Dungeons & Dragons." The
media made a big thing about "D&D related suicides" during that period,
which also sits in the back of people's heads.

Around here, that's what people really remember. I collect religious
pamphlets, a couple of them attack heavy metal music, and in passing mention
Dungeons & Dragons, not terribly interesting. I do have one_classic_,
published by the Catholics during the height of the roleplaying boom that
goes into alot of detail about the evils of Dungeons & Dragons. Apparently,
in Arkansas and other states there was more made of the "Satanic" angle than
around here.

My apologies for the kind of off topic post.

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1393
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.comTraveller-digest     Saturday, January 9 1999     Volume 1998 : Number 1394



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Game systems and books as a GUIDELINE
Re: jumpspace recursion
Jumo-class Heavy Fighter (GTL10)
Citadel-class Heavy Fighter (GTL12)
A sad commentary on gamers
Re: Is Traveller a Science Fiction Roleplaying Game ?
Re: In Defence of T4 (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance) Long
Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?
Re: Game systems and books as a GUIDELINE
TravellerCon (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance? )
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Comments, Please: Extending the UWP: Government
Re: Game systems and books as a GUIDELINE
Miscellaneous Responses
Re: Traveller's Last Chance? [OT]
Re: TravellerCon (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance? )
re: a sad commentary on gamers
TNE Miniatures?
Re: GT tech levels vs Ancient Tech and TL penalties

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:16:04 EST
From: "Rick Elrod" <rickelrod@hotmail.com>
Subject: Game systems and books as a GUIDELINE

Hello all...

I'm new to this list.  I never realized until now that any such thing 
existed.  It's great to read all these posting about my favorite game.  
I started playing Traveller in 1979, when I was a junior in high school.  
Yes, I started with the 3 black books.  Now I have all the black books, 
supplements, Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society issues, Challenge 
issues, and a few Megatraveller books.

Does anyone think as I do that the books and supplements and rules and 
materials serve as a GUIDELINE to great role playing?  The group I'm in 
pretty much uses the Megatraveller play system and character generation, 
and we use all the background history (Spinward Marches, The Dark Times, 
The New Era) as the backdrop for our adventures.  We don't harp so much 
on flaws in the game system, as we make workarounds for them.  If 
something doesn't suit us then we change it, or if something is not 
complete or missing altogether, then we add it.

Does anyone have anything that they've changed in the game system or 
worked around or added that makes play better?  If so, I'd love to hear 
about it, and share what changes and additions we've made also.

Thanks all.

Rick

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:23:21 EST
From: "Rick Elrod" <rickelrod@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: jumpspace recursion

>In mail you write:
>
>> IMTU, I'd warn the intrepid astrogator that this move has never been 
>> recorded in the 1k+ years of Imperial Interstellar Exploration History. 
>> If they really want to try it I'd say "Roll 2d6 and pray."
>> (NO skill will help this one!)
>> 2=both ships are destroyed in an incredible display of jumpspace 
>> pyrotechnics.
>> 7=ship b is thrown out of jumpspace early (misjump), ship a never 
>> finished the shift into hyperspace.
>> 12=one serious misjump to God only knows where (but they'd be 
alive...)
>

I agree with 2.
3=both ships disappear from this universe and re-appear in a different 
universe which is hanging around the neck of a medium sized cat in New 
York City.

Rick

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:23:19 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Jumo-class Heavy Fighter (GTL10)

Jumo-class Heavy Fighter (GTL10)
Designed by Robert Prior

This starship was designed using the rules in GURPS Traveller

Ship Description


Crew: pilot
50-ton SL Hull, DR 1000, PD 4, 3 Fixed-Mount Lasers, Hardened Cockpit,
Engineering, 36 Maneuver, 0 Utility, no cargo

Communicators: Radio 0.8 million km, Laser 1.6 million km
Sensors: PESA 16000 km, AESA 80000 km, Radscanner 1600 km
3 360-MJ Lasers: Imp, Acc 32, Dmg 6dx50(2), 1/2D Rng 32726 km, MxRng 98618 km, FP 4
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 448.9 tonnes, LMass 448.9 tonnes, Cost MCr 16.1, HP 9750
Performance: Accel 2.9 G (2.9 G empty, 2.9 G overloaded), Jump 0, Air
Speed 6521 km/h


Design Spreadsheet

STRUCTURE                         Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area     Crew
50-ton streamlined hull           (40.0)       5.9       0.8    5434.0      0.0
Airtight sealing                     0.0       0.0       0.1       0.0      0.0
Armour: DR1000, PD4                  0.0     294.8       3.9       0.0      0.0
DRIVE MODULES                     Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area     Crew
Maneuver drive (2.9G)               36.0     111.0       5.8       0.0      0.6
WEAPON MODULES                    Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area     Crew
3 360-MJ Lasers                      3.0      32.7       3.1       0.0      0.0
WORKSPACE MODULES                 Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area     Crew
Hardened Cockpit                     1.0       4.6       2.5       0.0      1.0
TOTALS                            Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area     Crew
Fully loaded & fitted out           40.0     448.9      16.1    5434.0      1.0
Unloaded with skeleton crew         40.0     448.9      16.1    5434.0      1.0


(Designed with GT Shipyard: GURPS Traveller's Starship Design Software.
Copyright Robert Prior, 1998)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:23:42 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Citadel-class Heavy Fighter (GTL12)

Citadel-class Heavy Fighter (GTL12)
Designed by Robert Prior

This starship was designed using the rules in GURPS Traveller

Ship Description


Crew: pilot
50-ton SL Hull, DR 3000, PD 4, 3 Fixed-Mount Lasers, Hardened Cockpit,
Engineering, 36 Maneuver, 0 Utility, no cargo

Communicators: Radio 0.8 million km, Laser 1.6 million km
Sensors: PESA 32000 km, AESA 112000 km, Radscanner 3200 km
3 405-MJ Lasers: Imp, Acc 33, Dmg 5dx100(2), 1/2D Rng 41635 km, MxRng
124909 km, FP 7
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 512.9 tonnes, LMass 512.9 tonnes, Cost MCr 20.3, HP 9750
Performance: Accel 6.4 G (6.4 G empty, 6.4 G overloaded), Jump 0, Air
Speed 10312 km/h


Design Spreadsheet

STRUCTURE                         Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area     Crew
50-ton streamlined hull           (40.0)       2.9       0.8    5434.0      0.0
Airtight sealing                     0.0       0.0       0.1       0.0      0.0
Armour: DR3000, PD4                  0.0     353.7       4.7       0.0      0.0
DRIVE MODULES                     Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area     Crew
Maneuver drive (6.4G)               36.0     130.6      10.4       0.0      0.4
WEAPON MODULES                    Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area     Crew
3 405-MJ Lasers                      3.0      21.2       2.0       0.0      0.0
WORKSPACE MODULES                 Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area     Crew
Hardened Cockpit                     1.0       4.4       2.3       0.0      1.0
TOTALS                            Spaces      Mass      Cost      Area     Crew
Fully loaded & fitted out           40.0     512.9      20.3    5434.0      1.0
Unloaded with skeleton crew         40.0     512.9      20.3    5434.0      1.0


(Designed with GT Shipyard: GURPS Traveller's Starship Design Software.
Copyright Robert Prior, 1998)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:30:36 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: A sad commentary on gamers

"Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net> writes:
>In the UK RPGer's are referred to usually as 'sad, lonely, miserable
>b*st*rds who wouldn't know what a woman was if it came up an bit them on
>the
>butt' (I'm using an Americanism there, we would normally say arse).

I picked up the game "Tribes" (from SJG) to use in class. I can _highly_
recommend this one-it's great fun, educational, and cheap ($10US).

Essentially, all the players are primitive humans, trying to survive. The
winners are the male and female with the most surviving adult children
after 20 years.  Check out the description on teh SJG web site for more
information.

The sad commentary?  The writers apparently felt it necessary to include
in the rules that pregnant women can't get pregnant again until after the
baby is born.

ObTrav?  There's some suggestions for modelling alien biologies included
after the optional rules. It would be interesting to model, say, primitive
Aslan and see what social structures evolve. Anyone interested in a PBeM? 
I'll coordinate.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:38:53 EST
From: "Rick Elrod" <rickelrod@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Is Traveller a Science Fiction Roleplaying Game ?

dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com writes:
>
>
>  Does hard science need to be so evident in comments on other peoples
>suggestions ?  Ok it is useful but I am a fan of the Gizmo that science 
has
>not yet created or is not possible in the Real World.
>
>

Didn't someone say once that technology, if sufficiently advanced, is 
indistinguishable from magic?  Could anyone 200 years ago, with their 
understanding of science, explain a device such as a laptop computer for 
example?  Surely they would say it was "fantasy" or "impossible".

Think about it.



Rick Elrod
rickelrod@hotmail.com


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 16:44:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: In Defence of T4 (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance) Long

- ---Stuart Ferris <stuart.ferris@virgin.net> wrote:
> No, no, your missing my point. I liked T4 too.<

Sorry, that was unclear.  It was not your post in particular.  It was
the general consensus that I was directing it at.

> No offense intended but might your profession be school teacher?< 

?

>I have played Traveller since it was first brought out in the UK
(i.e. over 15 years). I have a large collection of CT, MT and T4 books
and take great  delight in their content. What I object to is spending
hard earned money on a product that is not merchantable standard.
Editorial problems and flawed rules are unforgivable in a gaming
system. Many times I have received a T4 book from my mail order
supplier only to be disappointed by the books poor content. Only
Pocket Empires and Psionics Institutes stand out as the two highlights
of the system.<

I certainly admitted it's faults.  The only solution to getting that
"burned" feeling over and over would be to refuse to purchase the
offensive products.  The reviews of each title were available on the
web very early on.  I am one of the completist fools who would have
anted up no matter what.  Errata and fixes started to circulate early,
too.  You are right to say that the number of flaws in the product
became unforgivable.  That is why the publisher went belly up and lost
their license to boot.  Most of the errors in the product were due to
poor editing and a rush to publish, not creative lack on the part of
the writer (tho some were).

To visit the sins of the father on the son is fine.  Vice versa is
unfair.  Certainly Marc had a lapse in judgment when he allowed IG so
much free reign.  But the problem was "who" he gave the freedom to,
not the fact that he gave it to them.  IG is entirely to blame for the
product they produced.  Marc is at fault for licensing it to the wrong
people.  I'm sure that Marc has learned his lesson well and will go
and sin no more.  Remember, for Marc to be able to pull the license he
had to have a contractual reason.  By far the most common contract
breaches are those that involve money.  I assume (though I do not
know) that Marc went unpaid in some portion, too.  If we were stung by
T4, it's safe to assume that Marc was more so.  The only way for him
to redeem his good name will be to publish a much better product.  Can
he do it?  I don't know.  But he has, by virtue of his contribution to
the genre, earned the right to attempt the feat.  I will keep an open
mind and a positive attitude, based on the content rather than the
execution of T4.


 

==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
IMTU 0601 tc++ tm !tn t4 ?tg ge- 3i pi ta+ he+ 
http://come.to/traveller

Visit the "Subsidized Merchant" - http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 11:01:10 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?

From: steve daniels 
> MindShift Design wrote:
> 
> > A quick question to everyone on the TML:
> >
> > How many people would like to see an 'official' licensed play by mail/email
> > version of Traveller ? One with all the background of the Traveller
> > universe, but with an intuitive command system for performing actions and
> > actual roleplaying ? One that would allow thousands of players to play
> > together at the same time with and against each other ?
> 
> Thousands?  10s would be plenty.

Where's your megalomania?  We want the whole world playing!

> 
> > One that is played
> > regularly and has many levels of complexity so that it makes the game
> > enjoyable for new players as well as Traveller veterans ?
> >
> > Anyone interested ? Feedback ? Thoughts ?
> 
> It might be interesting but I think to do it right, you'd need a team of GMs
> to coordinate smaller groups and individuals and to share the load.
> But assuming you could get such a team together, it would be cool
> to have crossing theme lines where players might be working against
> each other, and not knowing if the people they talk to are players
> or NPCs.
> 
> Timing might be tough though, if player groups iinersect each other.

The other problem, which is a problem for FtF play too, is what happens
when players try to go "off the map".  This is why the Islands Cluster in
Trillion Credit Squadron is so isolated, of course.  

It's not such a worry if there are live GMs, but if it's to be at least
semi-automated, it would be.

I would like such mega-games to be playable on both high and low levels.

An example:  Take the situation in Aramis subsector/Spinward Marches, as
described in the Traveller Adventure.  You have high-level entities -
subsector and planetary governments, corporations, Vargr corsairs, and so
on.  You also have low-level ones - ship crews, local corporate reps, and
so on.  There are also "mid-level" possibilities - Aramanx, IIRC, is a
balkanised, war-torn world.

A subsector level game like this (details fiddled of course), could keep a
lot of people busy - traders, corsairs, corsair-hunters, maybe explorers,
mercs, planetary rulers, corporate wannabes, criminals....

Of course a subsector is precisely the level where people will jump off the
edge of the map.  A whole sector would be better - start everyone in the
middle subsectors, and subtly hint that they shouldn't go outside the
sector.  Of course, the more area you have, the more sparsely the players
are distributed, and of course it's their interactions that make stuff
really interesting.  Why talk to/brawl with an NPC in a bar, when you could
brawl with/talk to another PC?

And, of course, there's no reason why people couldn't play both high and
low level characters - I'm sure Archduke Norris has his trusted agents.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 19:48:08 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Game systems and books as a GUIDELINE

Rick Elrod said:

>Hello all...
>
>I'm new to this list.  I never realized until now that any such thing
>existed.  It's great to read all these posting about my favorite game.
>I started playing Traveller in 1979, when I was a junior in high school.


Welcome to the list, Rick!

>Does anyone think as I do that the books and supplements and rules and
>materials serve as a GUIDELINE to great role playing?  The group

Yes, with a capital Y.

>Does anyone have anything that they've changed in the game system or
>worked around or added that makes play better?  If so, I'd love to hear
>about it, and share what changes and additions we've made also.


There's potential to start a great discussion here :^)

Anyway, yes, I don't tend to muck around with the rules too much (except
when I have to patch something on the spot in a game). I tend to be much
more into screwing around with the background stuff. Automation and
computers are more prominent in my own game. Biotech pops up quite often,
artificial intelligence exists, and a certain degree of nanotechnology is
commonplace. That's the technology end of it, at least.

My own Traveller universe is one where giant Megacorporate cargo ships weave
their automated way through the Imperium, while free traders struggle to
compete (by being flexible enough to carry small, high value cargoes). It's
a place where nanotechnology is so commonplace that citizens walk under
lightposts never even noticing the hight tech Delgado manufactured
nanomachines that roost on them, keeping them safe from microscopic assault.
It's an Imperium where public opinion is starting to turn against the
Imperium as the Imperial "hands off" policy is tested by nasty atrocities.
Basically though, it's the same old Imperium with a technology upgrade...

On the cultural end, it can be a little difficult to juggle the existing
Traveller background and update it to more properly reflect real world
developments. I've learned from the list that this type of thing isn't to
everyone's tastes though.

At any rate, I'm perfectly willing to toss something official (or canon) if
it doesn't fit into my campaign. It might not be perfect, but hey, my
players don't seem to mind when I do. The again, it's me, not them, that has
pumped countless dollars into Traveller materials.

>Thanks all.


I don't know if this is the kind of thing you were looking for...


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:00:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: TravellerCon (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance? )

>> > You know, we should organize a Traveller only convention this summer
> > and spend a week playing the game we love...FTF.  We could call it
> > "The Moot!" ;->
> 
> Seems to me that Toledo is centrally located...  <grin>

But summer is the best time to visit Vacationland, Maine!  I have the
perfect spot, too.  It's free, it's scenic, it has great dirt bike
riding trails and big barbeque pits.  Woo hoo, Traveller Reunion
coming like a fast attack ship!  =:-o



==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
IMTU 0601 tc++ tm !tn t4 ?tg ge- 3i pi ta+ he+ 
http://come.to/traveller

Visit the "Subsidized Merchant" - http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

_________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:17:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

- ---Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au> wrote:
> I thought banning them was very much an American fundamentalist
inspired thing?<

Are you taking a dig at fundamental Americans?  That's it, no more Mr.
Nice Guy! 

[off stage: "Honey?  Is my flamethrower still in the garage?] 

Look, mate, we send you great stuff like Star Wars and Traveller and
all we get from you is Paul Hogan in a Subaru.  Now you're gonna
attack our patriotis... 

[off stage: "Whazzat, honey?  He what?  You mean?  Oh. Oops]

Sorry about that.  My wife says that you were talking about Pat
Robertson.  Guess I made a mistake.  And she said that she thinks
Traveller vs. Mel Gibson was a good trade.  So, I guess you're off the
hook (this time).



==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
IMTU 0601 tc++ tm !tn t4 ?tg ge- 3i pi ta+ he+ 
http://come.to/traveller

Visit the "Subsidized Merchant" - http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 20:07:50 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Comments, Please: Extending the UWP: Government

Jeff Zeitlin said:

>This is a proposed article for Freelance Traveller, with the
>purpose of expanding on the Government code the same way that
>Extending the UWP: Starports did for the Starport code.  Comment
>is requested, encouraged, welcomed, and eagerly sought.
>---------------------------------------------------------------Freelance
>Traveller/The RICE Archives
>Doing It My Way
>Extending The UWP
>Government


Hi Jeff, I kind of missed this when you posted it (and now I feel like a
dunce, because it's really good). It can be used to model just about any
government I've come across. A great job all around. I don't have too many
comments on it, as I've tried to plug different governments in and have had
no real problems.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 20:02:15 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Game systems and books as a GUIDELINE

Rick Elrod wrote:
> 
> Hello all...
> 
> I'm new to this list.  I never realized until now that any such thing
> existed.  It's great to read all these posting about my favorite game.
<snip>
> Does anyone think as I do that the books and supplements and rules and
> materials serve as a GUIDELINE to great role playing?  The group I'm in
> pretty much uses the Megatraveller play system and character generation,
> and we use all the background history (Spinward Marches, The Dark Times,
> The New Era) as the backdrop for our adventures.  We don't harp so much
> on flaws in the game system, as we make workarounds for them.  If
> something doesn't suit us then we change it, or if something is not
> complete or missing altogether, then we add it.
> 
<and again>

Eris, 

This guy has potential heretic written all over him! Better get the word
to him before the Templers reach his door with the (hush) comfy chair!
;*>

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com
"In this same line why do the Brits (no insult intended) have BITS?
Where
is the NATS (North American Traveller's Society)? After all it IS "Yanks
in Space" ;^> why aren't we yanks doing more to promote it?"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:50:08 -0800
From: Rob Dean <rsdean@erols.com>
Subject: Miscellaneous Responses

> Stuart Ferris said: 
> >Out of interest, how many people on this mailing list are below 25 years of
> >age?

Not me, by a number of years.  I'm 37, and bought first edition, first printing
Traveller when it hit the shelves in 1977.  I kept up with CT as it was published,
MT as _it_ was published, and decided that TNE didn't have anything I wanted.  T4
sounded good, but I waited a bit, and T5? Well, we'll see.

"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> said:

> However, more secular materials (such as
> Rona Jaffe's "Mazes & Monsters") had much more of an impact. The book,
> "Mazes & Monsters" sold well, and it was really nothing more than a pathetic
> attempt to cash in on the newfound popularity of Dungeons & Dragons...

With all due respect, Mazes and Monsters was inspired by the real case of James
Dallas Egbert III, who disappeared from a Michigan State dorm one day in, um,
1979, I believe.  When it came out, people still remembered the Egbert case,
so the identity of the character in the book who disappeared was a "twist", since
it wasn't the most Egbert-like of the bunch.

The Moot: (-:

I like the idea, and my parents live in the Detroit area, so Toledo would be great.

Rob Dean
rsdean@erols.com
Traveller Dinosaur

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 14:22:40 +1300
From: "Anson Betts" <AFBetts@salcom.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance? [OT]

<snip>
>Around here, that's what people really remember. I collect religious
>pamphlets, a couple of them attack heavy metal music, and in passing mention
>Dungeons & Dragons, not terribly interesting. I do have one_classic_,
>published by the Catholics during the height of the roleplaying boom that
>goes into alot of detail about the evils of Dungeons & Dragons. Apparently,
>in Arkansas and other states there was more made of the "Satanic" angle than
>around here.

<snip>

Hehe, had one of those here in NZ too, it had some crazy quote about the
frequency of the words Demon and Devil being mentioned in the Monster Manual
some sixty odd times in a group of pages, which just happened to be the
sections on Demons and Devils...
Made me laugh :)

Cheers,
 Anson.

Oook Oook

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 18:35:48 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: TravellerCon (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance? )

Sword Worlder wrote:
> 
> But summer is the best time to visit Vacationland, Maine!  I have the
> perfect spot, too.  It's free, it's scenic, it has great dirt bike
> riding trails and big barbeque pits.  Woo hoo, Traveller Reunion
> coming like a fast attack ship!  =:-o

Now, wait just a minute! Calgary, Alberta has a spot that's free,
scenic, and has great dirt bike trails and BBQ pits too. Although I
don't see myself dirt-biking while playing Traveller. Besides, there are
two of us on the TML in Calgary, so that's two votes to your one!

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 20:37:11 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: a sad commentary on gamers

Rob Prior wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I picked up the game "Tribes" (from SJG) to use in class. I can _highly_
recommend this one-it's great fun, educational, and cheap ($10US).

<snip>

The sad commentary?  The writers apparently felt it necessary to include
in the rules that pregnant women can't get pregnant again until after the
baby is born.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The game is by SJG?

I recall a Murphy's Rules cartoon (from way back), "A Family Way". It
depicted an overworked and stressed-out woman, surrounded by toddlers 
and massively pregnant. The caption noted that to meet the population 
growth rates in the Play-by-Mail game "Tribes of Crane", each adult female 
would have to be continuously pregnant with duodectuplets - litters of twelve
kids each.

With this kind of game industry history of broken population growth
mechanics, I can see SJG wanting to spell out the particulars
and assumptions on this one. <G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 02:04:02 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: TNE Miniatures?

I seem to remember a short-lived series of miniatures for
Traveller: The New Era.  Does anyone remember who put them out,
and what miniatures were in the series?

Also, can anyone provide information on the miniatures that
Martian Metals produced for Traveller?
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 16:49:10 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: GT tech levels vs Ancient Tech and TL penalties

Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com> wrote

> One thing that irks me about the GT tech levels (it is actually a 
> about the GURPS TL system), is that Technical Maximum Imperium 
> point  is GTL13 and TTL15.

Actually the technical maximum of the Imperium (in Milieu 1100) in TTL
16 which is equal to TTL 13 (although I would call TTL 16 _early TL 13 &
have most GTL 13 items be TTL 17).

TTL 15 = GTL _12_ not 13.

> Now assuming that the Ancients are GTL14-16, according to 
> GURPS rules, an engineer with Engineering(some speciality) TL13 
> would be able to figure out what this Ancient Tech does on a -5, -10, 
> - -15 respectively (after that he is lost) ... assuming that the 
> ancients are this low on the Tech scale and you follow the rules.

Well "canonically" the Imperial Navy does make crude copies of the
Ancient Black globes they find.  These crude copies are TTL 15 or GTL
12.  If the original Ancient Black globes were say GTL 15 and the
Imperium brought in their top research people [Say skill 20-25 and with
TTL 16 [GTL 13] backgrounds.] who were therefore working at -10 +
unfamiliarity penalties. They should indeed have been able to copy these
items so cannon makes sense. 

Even if a particular ancient device _could_ have been first constructed
at "only" GTL 14 any particular example might have been built at GTL
16.  So just because Gurps Ultra Tech I calls a Braincorder [a device
that can copy someones entire mind to tape at range] GTL 14 you are free
to say that the particular example the PC's find is the improved GTL 16
version.

> I have seen GURPS Engineers with skills that could solve the first 
> one with some moderate trouble and second with some heavy 
> trouble ... but the beauty of Ancient Tech is - "You don't know how it 
> works ... it just does.  You want to push that button?"
> 
> Of course, if you play in T4, it isn't a problem because the highest 
> is GTL10. 
> How are you guys who are playing it in 1100+ handling this?

It is perfectly acceptable in GURPS to also apply an "unfamiliarity"
penalty (-4 is typical but it can vary) to use of high tech level
gadgets just as you would for unfamiliar gadgets of your own tech level.

Remember that in GURPS failing to make your skill roll by 10 points is a
critical failure.  Lets take the case of a "typical" band of Traveller
adventurers who have found an Ancient Artifact.  They let the ships
Engineer look at it.  We will call this Engineer Skill 16 [Traveller
skill level 4 (which is pretty good)].  She does not have a TTL 16 [GTL
13] background.  They have just found a handheld something and ask her
to try & figure it out.

The something is [unkown to her] GTL 15 so she has a TL penalty of -15
to skill.  She does not know what it is so she has a further
unfamiliarily penalty. [We will say that the something has a very simple
design with only a few buttons and call the unfamiliarity penalty only
- -2.]  Her effective skill is 16-15-2 = Skill -1.  Her player rolls 3d6
and gets a 10.  That is 11 points worse than her effective skill of -1
so it is a critical failure.  The Ancient Artifact happens to be a
Disintegrator Pistol.  Our protagonist has just disintegrated somone, or
several someones, possibly including herself.

[If you want to be a real jerk about it just rule that all the cool
Ancient Artifacts are psionic in nature & can't be used if you are not
psionic.  Not only will this stop players from running around with too
much power but it even fits cannon.]

[Note to self If I want my my Gurps Travellers want to be able of trying
to analyze Ancient artifacts make sure to give them Luck during
charecter generation.] 

I note that this is my first post to the TML in over a month.  I used to
post every other day or so.  The signal to noise ration here is getting
a bit higher than I prefer.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1394
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Traveller-digest     Saturday, January 9 1999     Volume 1998 : Number 1395



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Insults and name-calling (On-topic)
RE: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?
RE: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?
RE: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: TravellerCon (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance? )
Re: Scout Brew (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance? )
Re: TNE Miniatures?
Re: Is Traveller a Science Fiction Roleplaying Game ? 
Re: TravellerCon (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance? )
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re:  World Building--Biomes
Re: TNE Miniatures? [Question Answered]
Re: Age of TML members.
Re: [T98#1394] Game systems and books as a GUIDELINE
Re: Publishing (was re: Behind the Claw: Errata?..)
Jump Recursion
Re: Miscellaneous Responses
Re: Inverse lasers and reality
Re: [T98#1394] Comments, Please: Extending the UWP: Government

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 20:48:44 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Insults and name-calling (On-topic)

The bits and sparks of name-calling on the list has brought something
actually on-topic to mind.

IYTU, what is the worst thing you can call someone? That is, worst 
**without** using profanity?  If you wanted to get someone so mad that
they forgot their snub pistol and came after your (Brawling-5) character
bare-handed, what choice insults would make a good starting point?

I'm sure most "worst things" will be very regional...calling someone
a "Son of a Vargr" will mean much more on a planet plagued by
Vargr sneak raids than it will on Terra. Some examples from the
list might add some color (colorful language?) to the game...<G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 01:53:42 -0000
From: "MindShift Design" <mindshift@usa.net>
Subject: RE: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?

> Interested, yes.
>
> Personally, I like the roleplaying aspects of Traveller a lot more
> than the wargame or political/empire building elements.  I would
> *not* be especially interested in an automated "Trillion Credit
> Squadron" or "Pocket Empires."

What if you could have 2-3 different games ? Perhaps one aimed at freeform
roleplaying, one more mission based, and another that was a political/empire
building game. All of these could be independent games, but played in the
same game world.

So for the roleplayers in the group comes complex interpersonal relationship
development. For the goal-bunnies who like to achieve a target and
wealth/fame etc, there would be hundreds of opportunities to boldy go where
no-one has gone before. And for the god-heads, the control of politics and
the market in the gameworld would be dictated by them. Each of these types
of players would be affected by cascading causality based on interaction by
players on different levels.

> What I would be *very* interested in, is software that focused
> making it easier for groups of players to *roleplay* in the
> Traveller universe.

How about an Event Driven Game Engine that does nothing except generate the
kind of prose (dialogue and narrative) that you would find in a novel, or
short story between player characters and the world around them.

> So, what do *you* have in mind?

He he. At this stage, that would be telling ....

> >Can you make the software Linux compatible, too?
>
> More to the point will you, *please*, plan, from the start, to make
> it NON-PLATFORM specific?  Will you write the client-end in pure
> Java, so people with Macs, Linux/Unix, OS/2, DOS, *and* Windows based
> systems can all play with the same features and interface?

Actually, our EDGE System can generate turn results in many formats - either
direct to printers or fax, as the body of an email, the attachment of an
email or as a binary file that can be read by a front-end.

If there was to be such a front-end developed (and I'm not saying there is,
but I'm also not saying there isn't - so what exactly am I saying ?) then I
perceive that it would be written in Java in two forms, as a main executable
for each platform, or as an applet that would embedded in a web page.

Regards

- --
Jason Paul McCartan					ICQ: 16802661
MindShift Design Game Studios			AIM: Japem
mindshift@usa.net
http://members.xoom.com/mindshift

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 01:53:46 -0000
From: "MindShift Design" <mindshift@usa.net>
Subject: RE: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?

> > How many people would like to see an 'official' licensed play by mail/email
> > version of Traveller ? One with all the background of the Traveller
> > universe, but with an intuitive command system for performing actions and
> > actual roleplaying ? One that would allow thousands of players to play
> > together at the same time with and against each other ?
>
> Thousands?  10s would be plenty.

But in a universe so vast and varying, 1000s is more preferable.

> > One that is played
> > regularly and has many levels of complexity so that it makes the game
> > enjoyable for new players as well as Traveller veterans ?
> >
> > Anyone interested ? Feedback ? Thoughts ?
>
> It might be interesting but I think to do it right, you'd need a team of GMs
> to coordinate smaller groups and individuals and to share the load.
> But assuming you could get such a team together, it would be cool
> to have crossing theme lines where players might be working against
> each other, and not knowing if the people they talk to are players
> or NPCs.

Who say's you need to use a team of GMs ? More to the point why do they have
to be human ? We've already developed our proprietary EDGE System for
PBM/PBeM that allows exactly what you're talking about above. It's currently
in playtest for another product. Here's a sample of what it can generate:

======================================================

Background: The "Gala Princess" is attempting to dock at Hibernian Station.

RESULT:
Slowly, inexorably, the ship's thrusters gently manoeuvre it into a holding
position in front of the Hibernian space station.

"Clear for docking, Gala Princess. Disengage your thrusters and allow for
station docking control."

Jenn let go of the ship's controls. "I don't like letting someone else take
control of my ship."

Barra leaned forward from his seat. "Neither do I. You might fly this ship,
but it's me that has to fix the bits that break."

Jenn grinned at the big Vargr engineer. "Let's hope Hibernian control have a
gentle touch then ..."

Docking arms were extended from the Hibernian station. Long grasping metal
arms that caressed the hull of the Gala Princess, and brought her slowly to
a standstill. There was a slight judder as the docking walkway was extended
and secured onto the ship's hull. A hiss of air, and docking was complete.

"Well people," said Jenn. "Shall we see what we can see on Hibernian ?"

======================================================

Whilst not strictly relating to Traveller, this was generated from several
player character positions and other gameworld data using our EDGE System
and one single command - dock the ship. Imagine what a Traveller game could
be like ....

> Timing might be tough though, if player groups iinersect each other.

Not if the game was played on a regular turn basis, and in a particular
fashion.

> I'm game though.

Glad to hear it. Watch this space.

- --
Jason Paul McCartan					ICQ: 16802661
MindShift Design Game Studios			AIM: Japem
mindshift@usa.net
http://members.xoom.com/mindshift

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 01:53:49 -0000
From: "MindShift Design" <mindshift@usa.net>
Subject: RE: Traveller's Last Chance?

> I think a great marriage of rpgs and computers *is* possible.  You
> would have a system where several people could participate in a
> universe presented through a computer, but where the plot and
> interactions between that universe and the PC's were controlled
> *interactively* by the GM.  This is where MUD/MUSH/MOO, PBEM, IRC
> and ICQ games are headed, but haven't gotten to yet...IMO.

Who says ? <g>

Perhaps a company has developed a computer-moderated game engine that runs
from a HUGE database backend with oodles and oodles of gameworld data,
intelligent NPCs controlled by an AI, and features galore. As well as being
fully customisable by a game administrator/moderator and pushing the
boundaries of interactive story-telling. Where 1000s of players can interact
with each other and re-write the gameworld as the go. Where only the limits
of imagination (and the laws of physics) could stop a player from allowing
his character(s) to do anything.

Lets also say that perhaps that company is very interested in doing
Traveller. And is also in the process of scoring several other major
well-known RPG titles to turn into the same kind of game.

Perhaps I've said too much <s>.

- --
Jason Paul McCartan					ICQ: 16802661
MindShift Design Game Studios			AIM: Japem
mindshift@usa.net
http://members.xoom.com/mindshift

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 20:44:01 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: TravellerCon (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance? )

Personally I don't really care where it is! The idea is enough! 

Erwin Fritz wrote:
>
> Now, wait just a minute! Calgary, Alberta has a spot that's free,
> scenic, and has great dirt bike trails and BBQ pits too. Although I
> don't see myself dirt-biking while playing Traveller. Besides, there are
> two of us on the TML in Calgary, so that's two votes to your one!
- -- 

Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com
"In this same line why do the Brits (no insult intended) have BITS?
Where
is the NATS (North American Traveller's Society)? After all it IS "Yanks
in Space" ;^> why aren't we yanks doing more to promote it?"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 17:03:38 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Scout Brew (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance? )

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote

> OK, I'm planning on going to GenCon this year.  Shall we make plans to 
> have a Traveller party?  I have a friend who microbrews, and he can 
> provide all the Scout Brew we can drink.  :P

Will it have real Scouts in it?

[Said in by best Wednesday Adams voice.]

Did you ever wonder if Scout brew requires the use of (unspecified) body
fluids and/or tisues in the recepie? [Naturally the best Scout brew
would incorporate parts from Scouts of multiple species.] With Traveller
Tech levels they can always grow the blood, or fingers, or whatever, in
the base medical lab.  Maybe Scout brew brewing attempts should require
access to a Med Lab, or dead Scouts?  [Logically this would explain what
Vilani are doing in the otherwise culturally Solomanish IISS, it is
theri only way of continuing their cannibal past.]

Perhaps the reason the Imperium does not go in for nanotechnology is
because their had a nanotech disaster in the past when Scouts [Imperial
or Sylean, depending on when you want to set the incident] used
nanotecnology to make Scout Brew with and the results were, shall we
say, less than a complete success....

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 20:50:37 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: TNE Miniatures?

Jeff,

I'm not sure who produced them but I happened to visit a hobby shop
today, unfortunately they've pretty much reduced their gaming section to
some Magic cards and D&D books. However they had 4 packs of TNE
minatures stuck in a corner. IIRC there were 2 packs of "techs" with a
Hiver and human per pack, a pack of "marines" humans in combat armor,
3-4 I think, and a pack of Aslan warriors. 

Since I use 15mm I just looked at them. If there's interest I could go
back and grab them for someone. I think the price was arounf $5.00 a
pack.


Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> 
> I seem to remember a short-lived series of miniatures for
> Traveller: The New Era.  Does anyone remember who put them out,
> and what miniatures were in the series?
> 
> Also, can anyone provide information on the miniatures that
> Martian Metals produced for Traveller?
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com
"In this same line why do the Brits (no insult intended) have BITS?
Where
is the NATS (North American Traveller's Society)? After all it IS "Yanks
in Space" ;^> why aren't we yanks doing more to promote it?"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 02:17:17 +0000
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Is Traveller a Science Fiction Roleplaying Game ? 

> Didn't someone say once that technology, if sufficiently advanced, is 
> indistinguishable from magic? 
Arthur C Clarke
M

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 18:20:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: TravellerCon (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance? )

- ---Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com> wrote:
>
> Sword Worlder wrote:
> > 
> > But summer is the best time to visit Vacationland, Maine!  I have
the
> > perfect spot, too.  It's free, it's scenic, it has great dirt bike
> > riding trails and big barbeque pits.  Woo hoo, Traveller Reunion
> > coming like a fast attack ship!  =:-o
> 
> Now, wait just a minute! Calgary, Alberta has a spot that's free,
> scenic, and has great dirt bike trails and BBQ pits too. Although I
> don't see myself dirt-biking while playing Traveller. Besides, there
are
> two of us on the TML in Calgary, so that's two votes to your one!

Ah, but you forget that in Summer all of Mass. comes to Maine, so all
of the Boston/MIT, etc. folks will be here.  That's a half dozen to
your two, nya, nya.



==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
IMTU 0601 tc++ tm !tn t4 ?tg ge- 3i pi ta+ he+ 
http://come.to/traveller

Visit the "Subsidized Merchant" - http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 21:04:34 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

MindShift Design wrote:
>
> Perhaps I've said too much <s>.
> 
> --
> Jason Paul McCartan                                     ICQ: 16802661
> MindShift Design Game Studios                   AIM: Japem
> mindshift@usa.net
> http://members.xoom.com/mindshift

Nope! Just enough! Where/when can I sign up!

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com
"In this same line why do the Brits (no insult intended) have BITS?
Where
is the NATS (North American Traveller's Society)? After all it IS "Yanks
in Space" ;^> why aren't we yanks doing more to promote it?"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 17:25:22 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re:  World Building--Biomes

Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com> wrote

> >However, precipitation has a moderating effect on rainfall.
> 
> Ummm....errr... 
> Make that a moderating effect on *temperature*.

Note also that temperature has a moderating effect on the ammount of
precipitation that is required for a specific type of climate.  The
distribution of the precipitaion is also a factor.

For example the city I live in, Anchorage Alaska has a (30 year average)
precipitaion of only 11.9" [30 cm] per annum.  However we do not have
the "arid" climate that the recently posted tables describe as being the
result of less than 50cm of precipitation per year.  Instead we have a
typical, or even a damp, climate.  This is because at cooler
temperatures more of the water goes into the ground before evaporating &
more of your precipitation falls as snow in the first place.  In
climates where winter temperature are below freezing your winter
precipitation builds up & all melts in the spring.  Spring is one of the
times plants need water & the melting snow provides it.

Note also that mountains will have a vast impact on precipitaion
patterns.  Consider two areas.  One (west of a barrier mountain range)
gets a flash flood of 6cm of rain once a month.  The other (by the
ocean) gets 2mm of rain every day.  Both these areas get 72 cm of
precipitation per year yet their climates will be quite different.

As a more extreme example most of Alaska North Slope gets very little
precipitation but permafrost less than a meter down stops this water
from getting away & most of its are is in fact wet.  So a subarctic
tundra can be a "swamp" during its (brief) summer.

In Traveller where the length of planetary days & years will vary this
can have a large impact on climate.  For example on planets with shorter
years the seasons will be shorteer & the climate will be less extreme.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 18:29:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: TNE Miniatures? [Question Answered]

I have about thirty-five packs of the things, about thirty different
sets.  The manf. info is: 

Rafm Company, Inc.
20 Parkhill Road E.
Cambridge, Ont. Canada, N1R 1P2

They are packaged as T:TNE and have the GDW logo on them.  Most are
pewter, but a few are leaded.  I don't intend to keep them.  I plan to
put them on eBay shortly.  If anyone wants any furthur info I'll be
happy to oblige.


- ---Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com> wrote:
> I'm not sure who produced them but I happened to visit a hobby shop
> today, unfortunately they've pretty much reduced their gaming
section to
> some Magic cards and D&D books. However they had 4 packs of TNE
> minatures stuck in a corner. IIRC there were 2 packs of "techs" with a
> Hiver and human per pack, a pack of "marines" humans in combat armor,
> 3-4 I think, and a pack of Aslan warriors. 
>
> Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> > 
> > I seem to remember a short-lived series of miniatures for
> > Traveller: The New Era.  Does anyone remember who put them out,
> > and what miniatures were in the series?
> > 
> > Also, can anyone provide information on the miniatures that
> > Martian Metals produced for Traveller?
> > --
> > Jeff Zeitlin
> > jzeitlin@cyburban.com

==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
IMTU 0601 tc++ tm !tn t4 ?tg ge- 3i pi ta+ he+ 
http://come.to/traveller

Visit the "Subsidized Merchant" - http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 21:24:05 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Age of TML members.

At 18:31 9-1-99 -0500, Cap'n Sparky wrote:
>Stuart Ferris said:
>
>>Out of interest, how many people on this mailing list are below 25 years of
>>age?
>
>
>You've got one here. Ask the same question again in two years and I'll have
>to answer it differently.

I was already out of high school 25 years ago.... 8)


James

- ----------     ----------     ----------     ----------
HEAVEN is where all the police are English, the mechanics
German, the lovers Greek, and the cooks French, and it's
all run by the Swiss.  HELL is where all the police are
German, the mechanics French, the lovers Swiss, and the
cooks English, and it's all run by the Greeks.
                      (from a t-shirt I bought in Greece)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 02:55:44 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: [T98#1394] Game systems and books as a GUIDELINE

On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 20:51:24 -0500, "Rick Elrod"
<rickelrod@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Does anyone think as I do that the books and supplements and rules and 
>materials serve as a GUIDELINE to great role playing?  The group I'm in 
>pretty much uses the Megatraveller play system and character generation, 
>and we use all the background history (Spinward Marches, The Dark Times, 
>The New Era) as the backdrop for our adventures.  We don't harp so much 
>on flaws in the game system, as we make workarounds for them.  If 
>something doesn't suit us then we change it, or if something is not 
>complete or missing altogether, then we add it.

Thanks, Rick, for reminding us of this.  Most of us probably do
play this way, changing what we need to change, ignoring stuff
that we feel doesn't work, and so on - but then we'll turn around
and debate the endless minuti of "canon", seeming to forget that
the books are like Egyptian traffic rules - pretty decent
suggestions, but by no means obligatory in the slightest...

>Does anyone have anything that they've changed in the game system or 
>worked around or added that makes play better?  If so, I'd love to hear 
>about it, and share what changes and additions we've made also.

You've picked a good place to do this.  Most of us float ideas
here at one time or another; sometimes they provoke weeks of
discussion - on a list that sometimes emits half-a-dozen digests
per day.

I'd also advise checking out some of the web sites of the people
who post here - many people will put their better ideas up on
them.  One good one (in my biased opinion - it's my site) is
Freelance Traveller (http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller) where I
have a section specifically set up for rules mods that people
have written - look for "Doing It My Way".  If you do a nice
writeup of your mods, I'll be happy to post them on that site as
well.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 15:34:09 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Publishing (was re: Behind the Claw: Errata?..)

>Frank Pitt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Firstly, how can a game company stick to a ridiculously tight release
>schedule, when there is no need for such a schedule in the first
>place, and secondly, how can any professional (and I'll admit I'm
>being "nice" by including game designers/writers as "professionals" )
>allow a product to be released with their name on it that hasn't had
>rudimentary checking ?
>
>Or has no-one in the game industry got the guts to stand up to
idiots?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I believe the problem is that most game companies don't own their
>own professional-grade printing equipment.
>
>Quality printing firms have production schedules. The better the
firm, the
>tighter the schedule. If you want your publication printed, you
schedule
>a date with the printers, telling them what you'll need - how many
pages,
>what kind of stock, what kind of colors, etc. This date is months in
>advance, and you base the date you want on your professional opinion
on
>how long it will take to get the book together - written, artwork,
proofs, etc.
>When the printing firm can actually work you in will change the date
>even more.

Thanks for the reply, Walt

That certainly provided a valid financial reason for the habit.  I had
the impression it was merely managers setting arbitrary dates ( which
is what we get in the software industry ).

I largely ignore any deadlines set by managers myself, as they rarely
check with the developers before they do it, and when they do they
don't like what we tell them, and don't take any notice of what you
say anway.

I suspected, ( given the behaviour of certain product line managers in
RPGS that have gained bad names on the net ) that this was a similar
situation.

Still, I suppose it's a lot easier to distribute software
<grin>








>
>Now, you could wait until you had the book done, proofread, all
>up to snuff before you even set the date - but the book (and all the
>production money you've invested) would then sit on a shelf for months
>on end until the printing firm had an opening.
>
>If time gets tight and you're behind schedule, you can miss your "date"
>at the printers. They then have to break down your stock and setup
>stuff and store it while they wait for you to get done. Their other jobs
>may not be ready for them to work on yet, as the other publishers
>are tight on deadlines too - so their machines sit idle, costing them
>money. Money they will probably be charging you, in addition to what
>you'll spend when you do get done and are ready to get it printed.
>Miss your date by a day, you spend lots of money and wait another
>big chunk of time before your product is printed and on the way to
>the retail stores. Meanwhile, the interest on what you spent on this
>project keeps accumulating.
>
>When deadlines close in, something has to give. It's unfortunate that
>product quality checking is so often first, but the alternative may be
>no product at all. Granted, the company should take error-laden products
>as a warning to allow more time for the next project - but it's a simple
>fact that some books take longer to get together than others.
>
>Walt Smith
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 02:56:24 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Jump Recursion

OK, it's time to end the debate.

<P class="tongue-moved" location="cheek">
Quite clearly, the result is to create a jumpspace artifact known
as a "plot device" and activate said artifact.  The result is to
cause the enclosing ship to come out of jumpspace in an unknown
state of repair, with unknown damage to the contents (including
people) thereof, in an unknown location, after an unknown period
of elapsed time, to an unknown "objective date".  The Referee is
the only sophont that can predict the actual values of the
unknowns; They are guaranteed to solve the "equation" such that
the plot will be moved forward in the most satisfactory (to the
Referee) manner.
</P>
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 21:35:01 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Responses

>With all due respect, Mazes and Monsters was inspired by the real case of James
>Dallas Egbert III, who disappeared from a Michigan State dorm one day in, um,
>1979, I believe.  When it came out, people still remembered the Egbert case,
>so the identity of the character in the book who disappeared was a "twist", since
>it wasn't the most Egbert-like of the bunch.


I still stand by my statement that the book (and made for TV movie) were a
pathetic attempt to cash in on the new found popularity of D&D and
roleplaying games in general. I own the book, and the film and this is the
conclusion I had to come to.

I didn't know about this Dallas Egbert character until now. I'm kind of glad
that you told me. Was there any proof that he really did go over the edge as
a result of D&D? Or was he already mentally ill to begin with? I'll have to
look this character up...


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 15:40:20 +1300
From: "Anson Betts" <AFBetts@salcom.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Inverse lasers and reality

>MJ Dougherty wrote:
>>
>> Can you please tell this ignorant physicist how your magic
>> device works...  and have you filed for patent yet?
>
>Obviously, the laser idea is a dead end.  How about dropping the
>cute lines and instead talk about electro-magnetic induction as
>a means of invasive audio communication?
>
>--
>TAZ
>
How will inducing a current on a conductor passing through a magnetic field
create audio?
You'd need one hua of a big magnetic field to reach across 1km, let alone
30000km (1 hex range)

I know MAD detectors are used to detect submarines and such, but they are
looking at anomalies in the earth's magnetic field caused by the presence of
the sub, not at a filed created by the sub... (please correct me if I am
wrong on this point).

Cheers,
 Anson.

Oook Oook

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 03:08:13 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: [T98#1394] Comments, Please: Extending the UWP: Government

On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 20:51:24 -0500, "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
wrote:

>Jeff Zeitlin said:

>>This is a proposed article for Freelance Traveller, with the
>>purpose of expanding on the Government code the same way that
>>Extending the UWP: Starports did for the Starport code.  Comment
>>is requested, encouraged, welcomed, and eagerly sought.
>>---------------------------------------------------------------Freelance
>>Traveller/The RICE Archives
>>Doing It My Way
>>Extending The UWP
>>Government

>Hi Jeff, I kind of missed this when you posted it (and now I feel like a
>dunce, because it's really good). It can be used to model just about any
>government I've come across. A great job all around. I don't have too many
>comments on it, as I've tried to plug different governments in and have had
>no real problems.

This is the goal I was attempting to reach.  I felt that the
single-digit code was inadequate, and the extended profile that
DGP used was also inadequate in a different way, so I set out to
write something that would give a better picture of how the
government worked.  Fundamentally, most of the information will
be less than totally useful to the player/character (consider: to
the average tourist or business traveller, how important is the
difference between the representative democracy of the United
States and that of the United Kingdom?), but is a good base for,
say, RICE Paper information or severe detailing of a world.  When
coupled with the DGP notable customs, one can get a real "feel"
for a world, and this can give the referee what s/he needs to
make the world "real" to the players, instead of merely "Ho-hum,
let's do business at this cardboard cutout theocracy this week".

I'd appreciate it if you and others would try plugging in your
various favorite "planets of the week", and seeing if that does
turn up any inadequacies; I would find it astonishing (improbable
or unbelievable would be more accurate) if something I wrote off
the top of my head, without significant experimentation or
planning, actually proved not to be flawed in some way.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1395
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, January 9 1999     Volume 1998 : Number 1396



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Insults and name-calling (On-topic)
Re: Is Traveller a Science Fiction Roleplaying Game ?
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1392
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: T4 Fusion guns
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1392
Re: Game systems and books as a GUIDELINE
Re: Insults and name-calling (On-topic)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1391
Re: [T98#1394] Comments, Please: Extending the UWP: Government
Re: Insults and name-calling (On-topic)
Re: TNE Miniatures?
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1392
Escorts and Area Point Defense (High Guard, long)
Re: Insults and name-calling (On-topic)
Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)
Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)
Re: Dtons
Re: Ihatei Motivations (longish)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 15:48:22 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Insults and name-calling (On-topic)

>IYTU, what is the worst thing you can call someone? That is, worst
>**without** using profanity?  If you wanted to get someone so mad
that
>they forgot their snub pistol and came after your (Brawling-5)
character
>bare-handed, what choice insults would make a good starting point?

Something that should be pretty universal would be "su madre"
("your mother")

You don't have to say anything else, everyone usually fills in
whatever they think you might say about their mother.

If you're talking about personal insults, anything derogatory to a
creature's sexual equipment or performance would probably be good.

I've always found insults with big words are good, as the sort of
people you usually use them on are stupid, and don't know what the
words mean. They attack you anyway so they don't have to admit they
don't understand what you said.

Something like : "You micro-encephalic descendant of a copraphagic
flatworm" should do it.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 21:59:54 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Is Traveller a Science Fiction Roleplaying Game ?

"Rick Elrod" <rickelrod@hotmail.com> writes:
>Didn't someone say once that technology, if sufficiently advanced, is 
>indistinguishable from magic?  Could anyone 200 years ago, with their 
>understanding of science, explain a device such as a laptop computer for 
>example?  Surely they would say it was "fantasy" or "impossible".

True. But we do have "impossible" things in Traveller. Jump drive,
contragrav, and so on. 

What makes Traveller a hard science fiction game is that we try to examine
_all_ the implications of these technologies.

To use your example of a laptop computer, if our hypothetical predecessors
played an RPG that had laptops, but still had rooms full of clerks doing
sums, then it would fail the 'examine the implications' test.

I would expect some counterpart of Bruce to point out that these laptop
gadgets could be combined with optical semaphores (then the latest in
communications technology) for long-distance transmission of pictures.
Eris' remote ancestor would no doubt believe that not every laptop would
use the same commands. Michael might point out how manufacturing would be
changed by these new machines, while Bloo would explore the possibilities
of a laptop assisting lawyers in making cases and judges in trying them.

Over a decade ago, some of use in HIWG debated what Traveller cities would
look like, given cheap and plentiful contragrav. I'll post the results
tomorrow (out of online time today).

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:03:30 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1392

>Okay, to ObTrav the discussion: What is the proper word for Imperial
>citizens? Is it 'imperials'?

No, it's "Impies", or "Impy" as an adjective, as in :

"That's a bloody Impy battlecruiser"

or:

"You take out the Impy sympathizers, we'll assasinate the Impy
governor"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 02:43:58 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

 "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:

>Ah, but I bet you britons (is that the right word? if not, I apologize)
>don't quite buy into the "kid who is into roleplaying is far more likely to
>kill himself" myth.

British may be more correct, but I'll live with _Europeans_ too.

>The media over here gets its hooks into what it thinks are "juicy tidbits"
>and then slams them all over in short order. Every newswriter is a pop
>psychologist over here. <sigh>

It happens here, but we seem to be able to get a better hearing. Perhaps
it's this lack of a constitutional right to free speech? ;-)

Dom

>
>Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
>"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
>"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
>     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 02:47:15 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: T4 Fusion guns

 "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net> wrote:

>Well...in the *orthodox* TU you probably do.  The grav pulse just
>doesn't have the power to accelerate a stream of plasma up to useful
>velocities for ship-to-ship combat.  The only reason it works with
>lasers is that both are already ls beams.

<sulk>

Want my lickle biddy plasma guns back. Want to can open ships at close
range. Going back to play with High Guard not this stoopid Fired Fused
Steel...

</sulk>

;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 02:57:18 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1392

"Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net> wrote:

>In the UK RPGer's are referred to usually as 'sad, lonely, miserable
>b*st*rds who wouldn't know what a woman was if it came up an bit them on the
>butt' (I'm using an Americanism there, we would normally say arse).

Hmm. I thought the desheveled bespectacled heavy metal/goth computer
scientist student was the standard UK stereotype?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 03:07:02 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Game systems and books as a GUIDELINE

Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com> wrote:

>Eris,
>
>This guy has potential heretic written all over him! Better get the word
>to him before the Templers reach his door with the (hush) comfy chair!
>;*>

<FNORD>

Mike,

Stop that at once, I say.

He's actually a cunning Templar plot to flush out more of Eris' ilk so we
can burn them in the flames of their reaction drives. <Mwahahahahah,
Mwahahahahah!> Pay attention during the briefings!

If you spill the beans like this we'll have to answer to Inquisitor Berry
of the Canon Inquistion, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea.

</FNORD>
Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:09:45 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Insults and name-calling (On-topic)

From:           	Walter Smith <SmithW@hartwick.edu>
Date sent:      	Sat, 9 Jan 1999 20:48:44 -0500

>The bits and sparks of name-calling on the list has brought something
>actually on-topic to mind.

>IYTU, what is the worst thing you can call someone? That is, worst 
>**without** using profanity?  If you wanted to get someone so mad that
>they forgot their snub pistol and came after your (Brawling-5) character
>bare-handed, what choice insults would make a good starting point?

For a Vargr referring to them as "Lassie's lost love child" should do the trick. 
For an Aslan referring to them as the opposite gender would work well. A 
K'kree, eat a salami and breath on them.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 7: KARL
More Teutonic than the English Charles, Karls can often be found
advising US Presidents on the underutilisation of nuclear weapons
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:15:06 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1391

>AD&D has been in print around 30 years and they have only felt it
necessary
>to revise it 2 times to date.

I count at least four editions of D&D ( not including what _they_ call
3rd Edition )
plus several oither versions

The original beige books, AD&D first edition, AD&D second edition,
Basic D&D,

Then there's the second version of AD&D first edition (basically the
same as 1st edition but re-packaged and advertised in such a way that
I know several people who bought it expecting it to be a new
edition ),  Expert D&D, Immortals D&D...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 22:17:03 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: [T98#1394] Comments, Please: Extending the UWP: Government

Jeff Zeitlin said:

>I'd appreciate it if you and others would try plugging in your
>various favorite "planets of the week", and seeing if that does
>turn up any inadequacies; I would find it astonishing (improbable
>or unbelievable would be more accurate) if something I wrote off
>the top of my head, without significant experimentation or
>planning, actually proved not to be flawed in some way.


Sure thing.

I was thinking about this, and there might be a minor grey area with the
system that you may or may not want to address: Perhaps you could add a
qualifier that describes how happy the citizens are, on average? Maybe just
a simple 1 to 10 scale (er, 1 to A scale) or something like that, with 1
being an extreme dystopia and A being a an extreme utopia. Granted, most
worlds would probably be in the middle of the scale, but still. It would add
a good deal of extra flavor.

If DGP already covered this in one of their books, I apologize. I don't own
any DGP books so I'm not sure.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 22:25:14 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Insults and name-calling (On-topic)

In a message dated 1/9/99 8:54:34 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU writes:

<< 
 IYTU, what is the worst thing you can call someone? That is, worst 
 **without** using profanity?  If you wanted to get someone so mad that
 they forgot their snub pistol and came after your (Brawling-5) character
 bare-handed, what choice insults would make a good starting point?
  >>
	Many people go into a blind rage if you call them "conventional", or
"respectable"  especially if they are of the sort who demand that they are
"individualistic" in precisely the  same fashion all of their friends are.
These people are called teenagers.
				Dave "Dr Stodgicus" Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 20:31:39 -0700 (MST)
From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Subject: Re: TNE Miniatures?

They were made by RAFM.  Mostly there were spaceships - the new ships from
the Regency, the classic ships (scoup, patrol cruiser, merc cruiser, etc).
There was a pack of Combat robots and Aslan Mercanaries that I know of.

Also there were a few other combat types, IIRC.

I Know wargames west still had some a couple of weeks ago.

Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/

  "Here at Ortillery Command we have at our diposal hundred megawatt laser
beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say
 we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his SMITE button
                        for our fire control system"

On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> I seem to remember a short-lived series of miniatures for
> Traveller: The New Era.  Does anyone remember who put them out,
> and what miniatures were in the series?
> 
> Also, can anyone provide information on the miniatures that
> Martian Metals produced for Traveller?
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 22:31:12 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

SD Mooney said:

>It happens here, but we seem to be able to get a better hearing. Perhaps
>it's this lack of a constitutional right to free speech? ;-)


I don't doubt it. Strictly speaking, "free" can imply a lack of value (in
the broad spectrum of the word). It's so often that our media here in the
U.S. takes that literally ;^)

On the other hand, to ObTrav it, that's exactly what my Imperium is like.
When anybody and everybody can say whatever they want, everybody's theories
and opinions, no matter how backwards, have the exact same weight. People
with valid issues concerning the Imperium are quickly drowned out by those
with bizarre, lunatic, crackpot theories...

Of course, that might just be me :^)


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 22:32:41 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1392

Frank Pitt said:

>"You take out the Impy sympathizers, we'll assasinate the Impy
>governor"


This is a great example. :^)


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 22:40:20 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Escorts and Area Point Defense (High Guard, long)

Escorts and Area Point Defense
Optional Rules for High Guard (Classic Traveller)

Introduction:

Ships in a fleet can provide missile defense support to each other,
at a reduced level from their abilities to defend themselves from
such attacks. The mechanism for this defense is dependent on
the current engagement range and the ability to assign ships to
escort duties.

While the engagement is at long range, both Area Point Defense
and Escorts may be used. At short range, only Escorts are effective.

Note that for purposes of these optional rules, "ship" can be taken to
mean starship, non-jump capable ship, or even any small craft.

Changes to Combat Sequence: The Escort Step

If using these optional rules, an additional step must be added to the
High Guard combat sequence: an Escort step. The Escort Step occurs
after determination of range, but before Combat.

During the Escort Step, ships are assigned Escorts. These Escorts will
be able to assist in the defense of their assigned ship. 

A ship may not be assigned to escort a ship with an Agility equal to or
higher than it's own, as it requires a maneuver advantage over the ship it
is protecting in order to escort it effectively. Emergency Agility should be 
included if necessary, for either the Escort or the ship being escorted - a ship breaking off with Emergency Agility may leave it's Escorts behind.
Note that a ship may elect during the Escort Step to voluntarily reduce it's 
Agility so Escorts can keep up with it.*

Effects of Escorts:

Escorts may decide, for each Repulsor, Laser Battery, or Energy Weapon
Battery, to assign it to defense of the escorted ship _instead of_ it's usual
self-defense or offensive role. If fired in this fashion, decrease the effective
factor of the battery by one for purposes of determining penetration. Treat
batteries with an effective factor less than one as factor one.
 
Area Point Defense:

While the engagement range is long, all ships in the fleet can use Area
Point Defense. Once all fire is declared, a commander has the option
of assigning any Laser Batteries, Energy Weapons or Repulsors from any 
ships in the fleet to defend against any missile attack. Batteries fired
offensively, fired in self-defense, or fired to protect an escorted ship (as
above) may _not_ be used for Area Point Defense. For any battery used in 
an Area Point Defense role, decrease the effective factor of the battery by 
three for purposes of determining penetration. Treat batteries with an
effective factor less than one as factor one.

- -----------
* The design purpose of this rule is to prevent two (or five, or ten, or all
the ships in the fleet) from escorting each other. 

Notes on these optional rules:

I was reading some of the space combat sequences in David Weber's
entertaining Honor Harrington books, and the tactics described for
space combat got me to thinking - especially since in Honor
Harrington's universe, missiles are the shipkillers - a lot of interest
in applied to how they kill and how they are defended against.

Weber had a lot of point defense support going on, it got me wondering
what all these escorts in the Traveller universe were tagging along with
the fleet planned to do to protect the big ships they came with.

This makes perfect sense from what I know of our current missile
armed surface navies - there are ships specifically designed to kill
every missile around them, no matter which ship that missile is
aimed at.

I recall one Naval combat simulator, _Strike Fleet_ - the bad guys were
gunning for one of my spotting helicopters, I had it fly low over the fleet
so my Ticonderoga could shoot down the surface-to-air missile swarm
that was following it. I don't know how feasible this scenario would be,
but the idea of the chopper pilots buying every drink in the nearest port
for the Ticonderoga's fire control crew appealed to me. <G>

These rules give fighters yet another job to do - enough of them can
make enemy missile attacks on the ships you are willing to defend
much more difficult.

These rules limit point defense to defense against missile attack. To
my way of thinking, point defense versus lasers or energy weapons
would consist of shooting down the craft that's firing these weapons
at you.

Comments welcome.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 22:38:07 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Insults and name-calling (On-topic)

Walt Smith said:

>I'm sure most "worst things" will be very regional...calling someone
>a "Son of a Vargr" will mean much more on a planet plagued by
>Vargr sneak raids than it will on Terra. Some examples from the
>list might add some color (colorful language?) to the game...<G>


Well, if my dog is any indication, the word "tyrant" could send vargr into a
blind rage. Seriously! If you say that word (only that word, no other word
like it) my dog goes into an insane fit. It would be funny if he wasn't so
terrified by it!

So, if you mention the word "tyrant" to a vargr that is in _any_ way related
to mine, he might react unpredictably ;^)


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:39:03 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)

><< it says that NOBLES, including their entourages/bodyguards have
> a right to bear arms.  I've taken that to mean that they are above planetary
> restrictions. Commoners, on the other hand are bound by planetary law only.
> One only has to look at our friend Dulinor to see just how far the Noble's
> right to bear arms extends. >>
>
>Is that arms or firearms? This is a subtle point that I bet the MT Strephon
>and Dulinor would be VERY interested in. I can see Dulinor trying to stick
>Strephon with a dressword...:-)

I'd argue that the "right to bear arms" has _nothing_ to do with weaponry.
It is merely the right for a noble and his retinue to wear the livery, including the
"Arms" (as in "coat-of-arms") of the noble.

At least, that's how I'd argue if I was Imperial Bodyguard Commander
and Dulinor tried to get past me to see Strephon wearing a sidearm, or
a high-law level planetary government trying to annoy or otherwise
deal with a stroppy noble.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 22:52:18 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Weapons and Such (was Re: Texas revolts)

In a message dated 1/9/99 10:46:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
frankie@mundens.gen.nz writes:

<< I'd argue that the "right to bear arms" has _nothing_ to do with
 weaponry.
 It is merely the right for a noble and his retinue to wear the livery,
 including the
 "Arms" (as in "coat-of-arms") of the noble.
 
 At least, that's how I'd argue if I was Imperial Bodyguard Commander
 and Dulinor tried to get past me to see Strephon wearing a sidearm, or
 a high-law level planetary government trying to annoy or otherwise
 deal with a stroppy noble. >>

		Changing the definition of a word to change the legal consequence  sounds
very "Clintonian"  to me.    That kind of thinking get get you in trouble. ;)
			Dave Nelson

			

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 21:55:54 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Dtons

At 03:57 PM 1/9/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>Anybody know why the dton was expanded from 13.5 m^3 in MT to 14 m^3 in
>TNE?  Was it just to make the math easier for gearheads, or was there
>another reason?
>
>
>James
A displacement ton of Hydrogen is approximately 14 cubic meters, the reason
13.5 m^3 was used was for mapping purposes, a map square on Traveller deck
plans were 1.5m x 1.5 m x 3 m tall.  This comes up to 6.75 m^2, thus 2 map
squares (13.5m^2) was called a displacement ton for mapping purposes, and
to simplify mapping, MT used that as the standard.

Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 22:59:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Ihatei Motivations (longish)

Hi All.  

I'm so happy to be actually discussing _Traveller_ on this list!  

<Hans>
>Somebody (I forget who, the digests just keep pouring in!),

That was me.
</Hans>

Hi Hans.  I should have gone back to check it, it was a good post, but
I unfortunately deleted it.  If you still have it around, please send me
it (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca)

<Hans>
Why aren't they going further spinward instead? Lots of small single
worlds
there.
</Hans>

Ya, I mentioned that in my original post.  I realize there are some
problems with the Ihatei coming up to the Marches in GT, but given the
fact that they're there canonically (mentioned in BTC attacking Motmos(?)
and a couple of other places), I'd like to come up with some plausible
reasons for it.  The problem of them not going Spinward is difficult to
explain without getting highly creative.  One might postulate that the map
represents the width of a galactic arm (or "sub-arm" or something) and
that stars thin out beyond the edge of the map, but I'm not sure that fits
with canon.  Or you might say that they expanded in both directions, with
the more well-equipped coming coreward to capture the richer targets. 

<Hans>
Not quite. The first _ihatei_ reached the Marches around the end of the
6th
century. These would have been isolated groups, because today, 5 centuries
later, the Aslans are still only really established in the rimward half of
Trojan Reach. Since they are known to have been there at least 4 centuries
ago (the Glorious Empire was founded about then), this pose quite a
puzzler.
</Hans>

This is interesting.  Where's it from?  Solomani&Aslan? (I have to get a
copy of that!)  This largely gets rid of the problem of rapid expansion,
but now we have to come up with a reason why they were "dormant" for a few
centuries and are only now presenting a problem.

<Hans>
My own explanation is that shortly after the Civil War, the Imperium
instituted a policy of discouraging the Aslans from encroaching any
further
corewards than they were at the time  --  that is, about halfway up Trojan
Reach. This would explain the roughly 10-parsec band of neutral worlds
(which I call The Buffer Zone) between the Aslan and the Imperial worlds.
</Hans>

This explains why they stopped at that point, but why are they now getting
expansionistic all of a sudden?  I don't want to just throw up my hands
and say it doesn't make sense, I would like to find an explanation for the
canon.  

<Hans>
I've tried to persuade Loren that they wouldn't and to cut down on the use
of Aslan _Ihatei_ in GT publications. I'm anxiously awaiting the
publication
of GURPS:Mercs to see if I had any luck.
</Hans>

If my understanding of the state of things in TNE and GT is correct, they
have decreased the incursions of the Ihatei quite a bit in GT, but they're
still prevalent enough to require some sort of underlying motivation.  

<Hans>
Spaceships are expensive and it takes a large population base to send off
even a few people. If you try to work out something based on _Trillion
Credit Squadrons_ and allow the Aslans to spend a full 1% of GWP on
outfitting _ihatei_ (remember, 1% is what some people think is too much
for the full military budget of the Imperium), then they can export
between 1 and 2% of each generation.
</Hans>

1% might be too high for the Imperium, but the Aslan are a "warrior race"
whose major motivation in life is to gain land and hold it against others.
I think one could plausibly increase this percentage quite a bit.  What's
the US GNP percentage for military expenditures? (Let me guess, I'm
opening up a whole other can of worms, right?  Please summarize the
arguments for me if you are so inclined) 

In saying that 1 to 2% of each generation could be sent off, do you mean 1
to 2% could be given a ship?  If so, this isn't a problem, since those
ones are going to need fighters and vassals to go with them.  

In any case, sending off 1 to 2% of the population might be enough if we
assume that only the upper-class Aslan sons are sent off in this way (the
lower classes being relegated to labor jobs and other "disgraceful"
pursuits).  If 25% of Aslan children are male, then you're sending off 5
to 10% of them.  Hmm, that doesn't seem like enough...


<Hans>
If each second son got an 800T cruiser the clan would be bankrupt.
</Hans>

Wow.  So where do all these 100K fleets come from?  Just a few very
wealthy clans?  Or are you saying it would only be a problem if it was a
new 800T cruiser?  Hmm, maybe you mean if all the second sons of all Aslan
males got one?  I meant all the upper class sons who have to go out and
prove themselves.  I picture the lower-class males going with the upper
class ones as fighting forces and potential vassals.

<Hans>
The significant word is 'relatively'. I'm not saying they wouldn't be able
to sneak in on some small backwater worlds if the Imperial Fleet was
distracted, but no world with significant system defenses of its own.
</Hans>

Oh, I'm definately thinking they would be limited to worlds outside the
Imperium.  The BTC mentions an attack on a couple of Imperial worlds, but
these are quickly dealt with.  My picture of the Ihatei is that they're
grabbing up all the low-tech or low-pop worlds in the Trojan Reach, which
worries the Imperium, but not enough for them to risk great resources to
deal with it.  The idea of them posing a serious threat to Imperial
dominion over the domain of Deneb just doesn't work in the GT timeline. 
At best (or worst, depending on your point of view), they'll act as
another "raiding threat" like the Vargr.  More likely, they'll just
encroach uncomfortably on Imperial space without taking on the Marches in
any concerted way.  Hmm, I just had a thought: What would a Sixth Frontier
War with the Imperium facing a four-group Outworld Coalition be like?
They'd be fighting on three fronts, with the Sword Worlder providing added
harassment.

<Hans>
Now think about those 13 subsectors a little. The Asalns first crossed the
Great Rift in -1044. That's more than two millenia ago. During those 21
centuries the number of _ihatei_ that crossed the rift PLUS the natural
population expansion of the early establishements has sufficed to cover
13 subsectors. Now, suddenly, they are supposed to cover another 8 in 3
</Hans>

Crap, this is all from Rats&Cats, right?  I have to get that book!

<Hans>
years. Am I the only one who think there's something wrong with that
picture?
</Hans>

No, you're not, but given that the canon contains it, I'd like to come up
with an explanation that gives me peace of mind.  One thing I was
wondering:  When did the Aslan acquire Jump-5?  If it was relatively
recent then that could be a contributing factor to the sudden expansion.

<Hans>
Buy with what? Money isn't wealth unless you can convert it into goods, and
the transportation of goods across the Great Rift is subject to the same
problems that plague the transportation of _ihatei_.
</Hans>

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here, maybe I'm just not
reading it right. If an Ihatei comes across the rift with his daddy's
credit card and orders up a couple of ships from an industrial world on
that side, why would the world refuse him? 

Okay, now on to Joe Webb's comments...

<Joe>
Aslan didn't rush over, they have been in the area of the Marches for
centuries.  They were in contact with the Zhodani hundreds of years ago,
and had a thriving trade in the Marches in the 500's (IIRC) with
Dustspice.
</Joe>

Okay, more stuff I was not aware of.  Like I said above, this deals with
some of the difficulties of "rapid expansion".

<Joe>
Aslan among the Darrians have provided that empire an elite corp for some
</Joe>

This I knew about, but always figured it was an Aslan "far expedition",
like the Solomani one that founded the Sword Worlds. 

<Joe>
In BtC the ihatie are described as 'inheriting nothing' and as worthless
failures in the eyes of aslan society.  How does a bunch like this get
ahold of 10,000 dton cruisers and transports full of families?
</Joe>

Well, I'm not sure "worthless failures" is used, is it?  I think they say
"outcasts", but there is a sense there that the second son has to prove
himself.  It's a "sink or swim" test of vitality and ambition.  As father
to a second son, you're motivated to give him some resources on the off
chance that he'll really make something of himself and add to your
land-base.  

This reminds me of an idea I learned in an Animal Bio class a few years
ago:  Generally male children are considered more 'risky' than female
children.  Females are very likely to have at least some offspring, but
males often have none.  However, males will occasionally have very high
numbers (certain Sheiks come to mind).  This has led to the effect that
male children tend to be born more often in times of plenty and less in
times of stress (because you can afford to take the "long shot" when
resources are plentiful).  Perhaps the first sons are akin to females (but
don't tell them _I_ said that :-) and the second sons are akin to males? 
When resources are plentiful, you take more chances with the second sons. 
Perhaps an economic boom in the Heirate could explain the sudden upsurge
in Ihatei activity? 

<Joe>
Tthe ihatei problem in the Marches and Trojan Reach has been brewing for
some time.  It has reached critical mass in the late 'teens.  In TNE
timeline they had no organized Imperial resistance and overwhelmed the
Trojan Reach worlds (more on that below).  In the G:T timeline they are
meeting plenty of resistance.
</Joe>

If I'm reading you right, you're saying that the Ihatei have been in the
Trojan Reach for some time, expanding slowly and have only recently gained
sufficient numbers/power to push into the Imperium.  IYTU, is there some
event that triggers their expansion?  

<Joe>
Without something better to do, they are going to hang around the clan
holdings, attempting to knock off the clan leader get his land.  It would
</Joe>

I'm not sure I picture Aslan sons knocking off their superiors too often.
The Aslan are supposed to value loyalty to a great extent.  I think Aslan
would often refuse to follow a "leader by assassination" (though it of
course depends on politics, an unpopular leader taken out by a handsome
prince type might work).  Likewise, I'm not sure an Ihatei killing the
leader of an opposing clan would get control of that clan's lands, he'd
have to defeat it's military unless he could make some sort of political
coup as well to turn the people in his favor.

<Joe>
BTW there would be zero males in these transports.  Only females looking
for land owning husbands.  Why transport a bunch of rivals after you have
just risked your life fighting for this world, a place in society and a
big
harem?
</Joe>

No males?  But then where do your fighting forces come from? I think you
might bring in many males, giving them chunks of your world to take on as
your vassals.  Of course, the guys you brought with you initially would
have priority and you would only bring in others if there was room.  It
depends on how much rivalry one sees in Aslan society.  I think it's
mostly a pretty stable vassal system.  BTW, don't forget you're going to
start off with plenty of females on sight.  You need them as engineers
pilots and the like on your ships (males don't do tech jobs).

As for Tobia, I like your idea.  I think the Ihatei might take many worlds
this way, with promise of "fair treatment" in return for no violence. The
Ihatei gets put in as a figure-head, the government structures continue to
work pretty much as normal, the people of the planet don't have to fight
and die, and the Ihatei now "owns land", so he's happy too.  Plus he is
now entitled to full clan support, providing the world with better
defences against other nastier Ihatei who might come in and just bio-nuke
you off the surface.

Wow, that got long!  But like I said, it's nice to be talking about
Traveller for once instead of various irrelevencies...

Charles.

- -----
"Can anything truly meaningful be said in just a single line? Maybe, maybe
not." 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1396
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, January 10 1999      Volume 1998 : Number 1397



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Insults and name-calling (On-topic)
Re: escape velocity
Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?
Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?
Re: A sad commentary on gamers
Re: TravellerCon (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance? )
Re: Miscellaneous Responses
Re: TravellerCon (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance? )
Re: FASA Sold
Re: Ihatei Motivations (longish)
Re: Jump Recursion
Re: FASA Sold
Re: TravellerCon (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance? )
Re: TravellerCon (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance? )
T5, GT and SJG
Re: Man-Kzin war
Re: Man-Kzin war
Re: Man-Kzin war
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: TravellerCon (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance? )
Re: TravellerCon (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance? )

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 23:11:44 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Insults and name-calling (On-topic)

Walter Smith wrote:

> IYTU, what is the worst thing you can call someone? That is, worst
> **without** using profanity?  If you wanted to get someone so mad that
> they forgot their snub pistol and came after your (Brawling-5) character
> bare-handed, what choice insults would make a good starting point?
>
> I'm sure most "worst things" will be very regional...calling someone
> a "Son of a Vargr" will mean much more on a planet plagued by
> Vargr sneak raids than it will on Terra. Some examples from the
> list might add some color (colorful language?) to the game...<G>

For Vargr:  Here, boy!  Sit.  Stay.  Fetch.  Heel.  Etc.

For Aslan:  Here kitty-kitty.  Bad, kitty!

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 21:09:26 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>
Subject: Re: escape velocity

 
> Anybody got a quickie formula for calculating surface gravity laying 
> around someplace?
 
F=GmM/r2 gives the force, F, due to gravity (G is the gravitational
constant: 6.67E-11 (Nm^2/kg))

F=ma, right? a is acceleration, in this case g is usually used (why
I write 6gs instead of 6Gs, but I digress :-)

g = GmM/mr^2 =GM/r^2  You need the radius of the world, r, and the
mass in kilos.

Earth is around 6E24kgs, Jupiter is more like 2E27kgs.

For traveller purposes we need to get from UWP to mass. Earth's
density is about 5.5, Jupiter is 1.3, Saturn is 0.7, Uranus is 1.25,
Neptune is something like 1.7. You can use the radius from various
traveller books for UWP code, then plug that sucker into 2/3*(Pi)r^3
to get the volume, and you know a ball park density (~5 for rocks
like earth, something like 1 for Gas Giants). Then work it out from
there. 

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:03:55 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?

>So for the roleplayers in the group comes complex interpersonal
relationship
>development. For the goal-bunnies who like to achieve a target and
>wealth/fame etc, there would be hundreds of opportunities to boldy go where
>no-one has gone before. And for the god-heads, the control of politics and
>the market in the gameworld would be dictated by them. Each of these types
>of players would be affected by cascading causality based on interaction by
>players on different levels.
>
Awesome idea!  Go with that!

Just remember that we role-players like to shoot our guns off every now and
then...

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 23:16:20 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?

MindShift Design wrote:

> Whilst not strictly relating to Traveller, this was generated from several
> player character positions and other gameworld data using our EDGE System
> and one single command - dock the ship. Imagine what a Traveller game could
> be like ....

And how badly does it hang when a player doesn't respond?

And what does the player have to do to get their actions interpreted
correctly?  It seems to me that Out Of Character comments to the GM
that help clarify in game actions might be a big hurdle.


Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:05:46 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: A sad commentary on gamers

>The sad commentary?  The writers apparently felt it necessary to include
>in the rules that pregnant women can't get pregnant again until after the
>baby is born.

It's a game.

If the rule wasn't there, a player would surely argue that because the
rules don't prohibit it, you _can_ be pregnant multiple times.

:-)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 23:17:29 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: TravellerCon (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance? )

Sword Worlder wrote:

>
> Ah, but you forget that in Summer all of Mass. comes to Maine, so all
> of the Boston/MIT, etc. folks will be here.  That's a half dozen to
> your two, nya, nya.

I've been in Boston for almost 4 years and haven't been North of Cambridge.
Everything you could ever want is on Commonwealth Avenue.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:29:08 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Responses

Chris Seamans wrote :
>I didn't know about this Dallas Egbert character until now. I'm kind of glad
>that you told me. Was there any proof that he really did go over the edge as
>a result of D&D? Or was he already mentally ill to begin with? I'll have to
>look this character up...

I've mailed Chris the definitive article on the Dallas Egbert case,
but have not attached it here due to it's size.

BTW, his problem had nothing directly to do with RPG's, he was merely
a genius intellectualy and, as one doctor described him, "mentally
retarded" when it came to social  interaction)

If anyone else needs to know, mail me off list and I'll send it to you.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 20:45:29 -0800
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: TravellerCon (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance? )

>Sword Worlder wrote:
>> 
>> But summer is the best time to visit Vacationland, Maine!  I have the
>> perfect spot, too.  It's free, it's scenic, it has great dirt bike
>> riding trails and big barbeque pits.  Woo hoo, Traveller Reunion
>> coming like a fast attack ship!  =:-o
>
>Now, wait just a minute! Calgary, Alberta has a spot that's free,
>scenic, and has great dirt bike trails and BBQ pits too. Although I
>don't see myself dirt-biking while playing Traveller. Besides, there are
>two of us on the TML in Calgary, so that's two votes to your one!
>
Being from Edmonton, I'd rather go to Maine over "Cowtown" any day!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:38:35 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: FASA Sold

>It may mean that Battletech becomes just a computer game. But then, as I
>don't play Battletech that doesn't bother me.

I'd guess this is a pre-emptive strike by Microsoft, to prevent FASA
from sueing them over their "Close Combat" simulator that looks almost
exactly like Mech-War, the BattleTech simulator based on the preview
they sent me.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 15:11:54 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Ihatei Motivations (longish)

From: Charles Collin 
> <Hans>
> If each second son got an 800T cruiser the clan would be bankrupt.
> </Hans>
> 
> Wow.  So where do all these 100K fleets come from?  Just a few very
> wealthy clans?  Or are you saying it would only be a problem if it was a
> new 800T cruiser?  Hmm, maybe you mean if all the second sons of all Aslan
> males got one?  I meant all the upper class sons who have to go out and
> prove themselves.

> I picture the lower-class males going with the upper
> class ones as fighting forces and potential vassals.

That's how I see it.  The upper class males are the leaders and the lower
class ones their followers.
 
> <Hans>
> The significant word is 'relatively'. I'm not saying they wouldn't be
able
> to sneak in on some small backwater worlds if the Imperial Fleet was
> distracted, but no world with significant system defenses of its own.
> </Hans>
> 
> Oh, I'm definately thinking they would be limited to worlds outside the
> Imperium.  The BTC mentions an attack on a couple of Imperial worlds, but
> these are quickly dealt with.  My picture of the Ihatei is that they're
> grabbing up all the low-tech or low-pop worlds in the Trojan Reach, which
> worries the Imperium, but not enough for them to risk great resources to
> deal with it.  The idea of them posing a serious threat to Imperial
> dominion over the domain of Deneb just doesn't work in the GT timeline. 
> At best (or worst, depending on your point of view), they'll act as
> another "raiding threat" like the Vargr.  More likely, they'll just
> encroach uncomfortably on Imperial space without taking on the Marches in
> any concerted way.  

The term "client states" comes to mind.  The Imperium is very interested in
what happens outside its borders, particularly to its allies.  It's quite
likely that there are a lot of subsidies and mercenaries heading rimward in
GT.  In some cases, there might even be Imperial ships.  The Joes might
even be interested in what happens to Pa'an, their formerly lost colony in
Trojan Reach.  Joe patrol ships where going there in CT Adventure 4:
Leviathan.

All this actually has great adventure potential, IMHO.

> Hmm, I just had a thought: What would a Sixth Frontier
> War with the Imperium facing a four-group Outworld Coalition be like?
> They'd be fighting on three fronts, with the Sword Worlder providing added
> harassment.

Yeah, cool, huh?

> <Joe>
> Aslan among the Darrians have provided that empire an elite corp for some
> </Joe>
> 
> This I knew about, but always figured it was an Aslan "far expedition",
> like the Solomani one that founded the Sword Worlds. 

That's exactly what some Ihatei migrations would be.

> <Joe>
> In BtC the ihatie are described as 'inheriting nothing' and as worthless
> failures in the eyes of aslan society.  How does a bunch like this get
> ahold of 10,000 dton cruisers and transports full of families?
> </Joe>
> 
> Well, I'm not sure "worthless failures" is used, is it?  I think they say
> "outcasts", but there is a sense there that the second son has to prove
> himself.  It's a "sink or swim" test of vitality and ambition.  As father
> to a second son, you're motivated to give him some resources on the off
> chance that he'll really make something of himself and add to your
> land-base.  

Ihatei fleets are how clans extend their holdings.

Damn, I was thinking about proposing to do Aslan and K'kree for SJ Games. 
Why didn't I?  Did anyone else put in a proposal?

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:45:46 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Jump Recursion

><P class="tongue-moved" location="cheek">
>Quite clearly, the result is to create a jumpspace artifact known
>as a "plot device" and activate said artifact.  The result is to
>cause the enclosing ship to come out of jumpspace in an unknown
>state of repair, with unknown damage to the contents (including
>people) thereof, in an unknown location, after an unknown period
>of elapsed time, to an unknown "objective date".  The Referee is
>the only sophont that can predict the actual values of the
>unknowns; They are guaranteed to solve the "equation" such that
>the plot will be moved forward in the most satisfactory (to the
>Referee) manner.
></P>

Thank's Jeff, a perfect  solution !

It will annoy the gearheads though, they'll want to know how to design
a referee now !

You'll also need a spreadsheet for designing said referee,
 preferably compatible with FF&S2 and Striker ) and another
correlating location, damage, time and date, that a "referee" can be
plugged into in order to solve the equation.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:06:49 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: FASA Sold

>I'd guess this is a pre-emptive strike by Microsoft, to prevent FASA
>from sueing them over their "Close Combat" simulator that looks almost
>exactly like Mech-War, the BattleTech simulator based on the preview
>they sent me.


I'm not sure if someone else already posted this to the list or not: Keep in
mind Microsoft only bought FASA Interactive, not the whole company, lock
stock and barrel. From what I understand, this is the segment of FASA that
made those nifty combat simulators for use in arcades... er... interactive
gaming centers.

As far as I know, this doesn't extend to the previous Battletech inspired
games (which were put out by Activision a good while back). Activision lost
the license for them years ago.

This has very little to do with your post directly. I've seen a number of
people concerned that Microsoft would destroy FASA's pen and paper product
line.

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 22:20:16 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: TravellerCon (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance? )

Sword Worlder wrote:
> 
> ---Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com> wrote:
> >
> > Now, wait just a minute! Calgary, Alberta has a spot that's free,
> > scenic, and has great dirt bike trails and BBQ pits too. Although I
> > don't see myself dirt-biking while playing Traveller. Besides, there
> are
> > two of us on the TML in Calgary, so that's two votes to your one!
> 
> Ah, but you forget that in Summer all of Mass. comes to Maine, so all
> of the Boston/MIT, etc. folks will be here.  That's a half dozen to
> your two, nya, nya.

Damn. I hate when all the PC want to go to high-tech (Boston with
M.I.T.) low-law level (U.S.A.) places.

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 22:21:20 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: TravellerCon (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance? )

Wayne Ewart wrote:
> 
> >
> Being from Edmonton, I'd rather go to Maine over "Cowtown" any day!

Deadmonton, eh? Well, this is getting off topic.

However, it's nice to know yet another Albertan on the list.
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:52:42 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: T5, GT and SJG

	A few days ago someone (sorry I lost the post) wrote that he was afraid that
Steve Jackson Games might end up being the sole home of Traveller, and was
upset about this.    

	I've been thinking this over and finally thought that maybe that could work
out alright.   If SJG issued both GURP Trav and T5 as separate lines but
included a chapter with GURPS stats at the end of T5 products and T5 stats at
the end of GURPS Trav products, we would have a certain economy of out-put and
close compatability between the simultaneous versions (wouldn't work for books
that were mostly stats of course, along lines of Fighting Ships or 101
vehicles).   Sounds like it might be a real good idea.  

	But in the long run  as long as T5 comes out and is good, I don;t care who
does it.
			Dave Nelson	  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 18:05:28 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Man-Kzin war

On 01/09/99 at 04:05 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>>>The lesson that the Kzin eventually learned was 1) humans gave up war
>>>because they were SO good at it and 2) the humans were fighting a war
>>>for survival (total war against kzin) where as the Kzin were just out
>>>to conquer us for slaves.

>> (c) Kzinti must be really, really, really stupid. The Kzin had reactionless
>> gravity drives capable of hundred-G accelerations, while the humans had
>> only fusion rockets 

One point that is being overlooked is that the Kzin telepath
confirmed for its Captain that these humans had *no* weapons, and in
the minds of the humans they didn't.  So, the Kzin didn't expect
anything leaving their ship open to a point blank attack.  It was a
"leap of imagination" driven by desperation by one of the humans
(the misfit who was always in trouble, if I remember correctly) to
think of using the reaction drive (and I think it was a laser) to
carve up the Kzin.

It's been a *long* time since I read the "Known Universe" stories,
but as I remember, the idea of war (and aggression in most any form)
was being bred out of humanity by the world government in the name
of peace.  A few misfits, Beowolf Shaffer was one of them if I'm not
mistaken, still had these evil, anti-social, aggressive tendencies,
but were being slowly rounded up and "cured" for humanity's own
good.  After it became clear the universe *was* filled with red claw
and fang it took several generations to breed aggression back into
humans.  ;->

And you know we shouldn't tell those that haven't read the stories
too much about the slavers, the pak and the protectors.  Those were
supposed to be surprises for the reader.

Eris
    ps.  Do you remember "The Long Arm of Gil Hamilton" and the
    "organ leggers?" ;->

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 19:03:25 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Man-Kzin war

>>Fusion rockets weren't the most efficient drives the humans had.
Check
>>out "The Warriors", the story of first contact between humans and
>>Kzinti. The humans had a ship that had reaction drive that gave it
an
>>acceleration somewhere between 1/100th and 1/10th g. Not even worth
>>paying attention to, right?
>
>>Only thing is, it was a *photon* drive. In other words, a laser. And
a
>>laser *that* powerful can be used for carving up asteroids, much
less
>>Kzin warships.
>
>At 200 G, Kzin warships should be able to dance/evade laser fire at a
>a hundred thousand km, and hammer terran ships, laser and all, into
>pate with kinetic weapons. Not even a challenge (unless Kzin are too
>stupid to evade and/or prejudiced against kinetic weapons and/or the
>Kzin reactionless drive is one of the type where you regain your
initial
>velocity when you turn the drive off.)

Acually, it wasn't a drive, it was a communications laser.
And the Kzin weren't that stupid.

They had their telepath scan the human's minds to determine whether
the ship was armed. None of the humans considered the comms laser a
weapon because weapons had been outlawed by the ARM ages ago.

Therefore, the Kzin thought they were dealing with an unarmed ship,
but the Kzin Captain didn't believe it, and the Kzin still played
safe. Finally the Captain was convinced the ship was unarned because
no-one who had a weapon could act the way human ship acted, so he
decided to take the ship intact.

When one of the huiman crew figured out they were all going to die, he
realized that he could use the comms laser as weapon, the Kzin were
sitting ducks, fully convinced the ship was unarmed and about to
surrender.

Technically, by ARM, and therefore Human, standards at the time, the
crewmember who thought of this was verging on the sociopathic just for
thinking of it.

Common them in Niven's works. See the the treatment of Cadman Weyland
in "Legacy of Heorot"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:24:04 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Man-Kzin war

>It's been a *long* time since I read the "Known Universe" stories,
>but as I remember, the idea of war (and aggression in most any form)
>was being bred out of humanity by the world government in the name
>of peace.

YES

 A few misfits, Beowolf Shaffer was one of them if I'm not
>mistaken, still had these evil, anti-social, aggressive tendencies,
>but were being slowly rounded up and "cured" for humanity's own
>good.

Shaffer came later, after the Kzin wars.  Violent tendencies were not being weeded out.
But for the curious, the world gov was wiping out all references to military and war.
mentally ill people who would think violent thoughts were constantly treated.

I did like the idea of organ leggers, folks who stole people for their
organs. Of course this lead to organ banks that were legal.  The punishment
for almost every crime (including the equivilant of traffic tickets) became
being sent to the organ banks.

TV

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 01:29:53 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

In a message dated 1/9/99 5:45:18 AM Pacific Standard Time, dom@cybergoths.u-
net.com writes:

<< My high school (UK type - 11 to 18 age range, RC Church funded) actively
 supported me in setting up an RPG and wargames club when I was a student
 (aged 11). The content didn't bother them, but I suspect some of the more
 extreme stuff now would. We regularly played Traveller, AD&D, CoC, RQII,
 Paranoia, 2300 and a few others.
 
 My wife's school (see teaches 11-16 Math) allows it's kids to Roleplay -
 this involves a few RPGs and also some GW stuff.
 
 Dom >>

Yeah; but your country at least still considers military history a legitimate
intellectual persuit. Here in the states; they are pushing really left wing
(no flames; I'm really a moderate - I swear) cultural history. Most history
professors think that those who study military history are automatically
militarists...The few colleges that offer it are losing it as the professors
retire (ex. Gunther Rothenburg) and the chairs are eliminated. I had to major
in generic American and European history with no military history at all. This
bias filters down to the secondary and primary school teachers (American
teaching colleges are even more left wing...) who consider gaming as VERY
anti-social (except for the enlightened teachers on this list)...:-) ). This
combined with the conservative right's (there I insulted them too...:-) )
hatred of D+D's "devil worship" make it very frustrating to run wargaming
(even when we call it "adventure gaming") in the public schools...

Ob Trav: cultural and political "wars" between left and right wing
Ideologues...? Hard to use in adventuring unless it gets really interesting
(civil war, or at least political "dirty tricks" that need the PC's touch...)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 01:32:25 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

In a message dated 1/9/99 9:06:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, dberry@hooked.net
writes:

<< OK, I'm planning on going to GenCon this year.  Shall we make plans to have
 a Traveller party?  I have a friend who microbrews, and he can provide all
 the Scout Brew we can drink.  :P
 
 I'm serious about this, and I'll be happy to plan it if enough people
 decide to go. >>

Doug; how about any of the LA cons?

Seth in Vegas

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 19:31:46 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?

>How many people would like to see an 'official' licensed play by
mail/email
>version of Traveller ?

Only if it doesn't cost anything to play.

I see no reason to pay for something that is "official"  when there
are hundreds, if not thousands of PBeM games being run for nothing.

> but with an intuitive command system for performing actions and
>actual roleplaying ?

Isn't that a contradiction in terms ?

Why would I want a "command system" for "actual roleplaying" when I
could just use language ?

Sorry if my bias against computer moderated "role-playing" games is
showing.
I'd have no problem at all if you were just trying to do TCS or FFW,
or some derivative, but I see a vast difference betwen something like
Ultima Online or Tribes of Crane and role-playing.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:49:31 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

I am not full flaming, but I am off topic.  Teaching colleges are not that
left wing.
I had a full range of military history as I prepared to become a teacher. I
even had an excellent course entitled "A Military History of the United
States"
I even attended a "liberal arts" college in my first go around and I had
excellent histories that did not white wash things or moderate them.
Hard to moderate Latin American history.


I also teach about wars (can't do Texas History without them).

So, move to Texas and go to college.  WE LOVE OUR WARS.
WE LOVE OUR GUNS, and most of all WE LOVE TRAVELLER.

:)
TV

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:04:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: TravellerCon (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance? )

- ---steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:
> I've been in Boston for almost 4 years and haven't been North of
> Cambridge.

"Come to Maine, spend money, go home."
(The motto of Vacationland)

[:-p




==
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:09:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: TravellerCon (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance? )

- ---Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com> wrote:
>
> Wayne Ewart wrote:
> > 
> > >
> > Being from Edmonton, I'd rather go to Maine over "Cowtown" any day!
> 
> Deadmonton, eh? Well, this is getting off topic.
> 
> However, it's nice to know yet another Albertan on the list.

Ayuh.  Now that Deadmonton and Cowtown are out of the running, it's
down to a choice between Toledo or Vacationland.  Gee, tough choice, eh?



==
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Visit the "Subsidized Merchant" - http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1397
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, January 10 1999      Volume 1998 : Number 1398



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Magazine Capacities
Re: T5, GT and SJG
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: World Building--Biomes
Re: T5, GT and SJG
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
sector information request
Re: TNE Miniatures?
Re: Age of TML members.
Re: Man-Kzin war
old Trav fanzines
What to do with your sulpher compund trace ?
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: sector information request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 20:05:04 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Magazine Capacities

>> Yeah, but on the shooting range, at any time, you could have turned and shot
>> your fellow soldiers like ducks in a row.
>
>You know I thought of that (the concept, not doing it) when I was at good ol
>Marine Corps Recruit Depot.   When we were on the firing line, I noticed that
>quite a few of the line PMIs had sidearms.  : )  The moment your muzzle
>awareness goes hideously wrong enough that u're sighting in on someone on the
>firing line (much less the anyone behind the line), my bet is there's a 9mm
>slug or 2 in you.  You'd be extremely lucky to get more than one pull of the
>trigger off before getting shot or appropriately manhandled.  At least, that's
>MCRD.   Since boot camp, excepting the pistol range (duh), usually only the
>ammo techs have sidearms IIRC.

My recruit course, a girl got herself slugged out for rotating to be
_almost_ in line with the other cadets on the range whilst saying
"Sarge, it didn't go off ?"

Before she could revolve to a danger point, a corporal GSI slugged her
while the sergeant grabbed the gun and forced it back down the range,
before carrying out the standard misfire drill.

I believe she later tried to bring a charge of sexual harrasment.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:15:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: T5, GT and SJG

- ---AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
> 	A few days ago someone (sorry I lost the post) wrote that he was
afraid that Steve Jackson Games might end up being the sole home of
Traveller, and was upset about this.<

That was me, but I'm getting over it I think.
    
> 	I've been thinking this over and finally thought that maybe that
could work out alright<
 [snip]

Keep talking, I'll come around sometime.  Maybe I should just bite the
bullet and buy G:T and BtC before I say any more about it?




==
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IMTU 0601 tc++ tm !tn t4 ?tg ge- 3i pi ta+ he+ 
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Visit the "Subsidized Merchant" - http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 18:06:15 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
> Yeah; but your country at least still considers military history a legitimate
> intellectual persuit. Here in the states; they are pushing really left wing
> (no flames; I'm really a moderate - I swear) cultural history. Most history
> professors think that those who study military history are automatically
> militarists...The few colleges that offer it are losing it as the professors
> retire (ex. Gunther Rothenburg) and the chairs are eliminated. I had to major
> in generic American and European history with no military history at all. This
> bias filters down to the secondary and primary school teachers (American
> teaching colleges are even more left wing...) who consider gaming as VERY
> anti-social (except for the enlightened teachers on this list)...:-) ). This
> combined with the conservative right's (there I insulted them too...:-) )
> hatred of D+D's "devil worship" make it very frustrating to run wargaming
> (even when we call it "adventure gaming") in the public schools...

"Left wing" here means liberal, I suspect.  I've played RPGs and boardgames
with Trotskyists.  I saw a Stalinist in my local games store yesterday! 
They consider military history a legitimate topic of study - ie they
study it.  So apparently did Marx, Engels and Trotsky!  They might have
objected to a "rah rah rah" version of history, however.  

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 02:45:48 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

sethkimmel said:
>Ob Trav: cultural and political "wars" between left and right wing
>Ideologues...? Hard to use in adventuring unless it gets really interesting
>(civil war, or at least political "dirty tricks" that need the PC's
touch...)


Let's see... Should I give you the short or the long version?

I'll give you the long version, since I tend to run at the mouth a bit and
if I try a short version it'll just get long.

In My Traveller Universe:

In my version of the Imperium politics are vastly important, even if they
are invisible to the PCs during specific adventures. Different planets have
different agendas. Different subsectors may have different agendas.
Different sectors may have different agendas. Not all of these agendas jibe
with the Imperial status quo.

The Imperium, as a whole, is not the Empire from Star Wars, it's not about
evil or subjugation, or removal of free will. The Imperium is about turning
a profit, the profit is for the nobles, the megacorporations, and the
planets involved. If a tyrant runs a planet and lets his people starve and
live in poverty, that's fine, as long as the tyrant doesn't interfere with
interstellar trade. Needless to say, that means that the Imperium is hardly
a truly stellar example of individual freedoms or even handed rule!

There are "leftists," and they range from the benign (trying to change the
system from within) to the malevolent (actively working to bring the
Imperium down as quickly as possible). I invented, and mentioned, the
Brotherhood of the Rorani for an article I wrote on a Daibei/Vilani singing
sensation. The Brotherhood of the Rorani would be seen as a watchdog group,
something along the lines of Amnesty International. There are others, like
the Ine Givar and the Rule of Terra that wish to overthrow the Imperium.
They have their own agendas and their own methods, and sometimes they even
work together. Then, I have other groups, that would act (sort of like
Greenpeace) to intercede and take down specific nasty and brutal regimes on
specific worlds. They may be wide-eyed idealists teaching the citizens about
non-violent revolt, or they may be active commando groups funded by
megacorporations for their own ends. Of course, they may be wide-eyed
idealist commandos, or megacorporate funded teachers of non-violent revolt.

Actually, that brings us to megacorporations. Not all of these massive
companies are created evil... er, EQUAL. Some branches may be cut from the
same mold as Weyland-Yutani ("the Company" from Alien), big, huge,
impersonal and ruthless. On the other hand, some may be more along the lines
of Rizome (the company from Sterling's "Islands in the Net"), with a policy
of economic democracy and leftist leanings. Maybe a nicer megacorp may
intervene on behalf of the citizens of a world. Of course, there may be
other reasons, and they may _look_ like they're intervening on behalf of the
citizens.

Finally, you've got the folks who don't think that the Zhodani are really
all that bad. They feel that the loss of life on both sides has simply been
way too much and it's got to stop. Of course, these people are a little
irked about the "standard" line in Imperial history books about what bad,
bad, people the Zhodani are. The same thing could be said about the
Solomani, as well, to a lesser extent (I intimated that in the post I made a
long time ago about the holovid "Tom Jetland: High Passage")...  And so it
goes.

So, anyway, what does this all have to do with your question? Basically, the
full realm of politics (and then some) exists in my Traveller universe. The
detractors of the status quo have some really valid points. Should they ever
get their hands on the full realm of information concerning the Psionics
suppression, well, that's the Imperial equivilant of the Kennedy
assassination information here in the United States, the mother of all
conspiracies. Should the citizens of the Imperium find out about the
psychohistorical plot, well, the entire regime would likely come down around
Strephon's ears (I play in the classic Traveller timeline, IY 1107 to be
exact).

The real kicker is that the pro-Imperial types have a valid point as well.
We've all seen the MT stuff, we know what would happen if the Imperium split
apart!

So my basic answer is, yes, there are cultural and political "wars" between
left and right wing  types. Even though "left" and "right" may not have the
same meanings to the average Imperial citizen, or may not have the same
meanings to citizens from Core and citizens from the Spinward Marches.

Then, of course, over top of it all is the Imperial media, but don't get me
started on them, I could be typing all night (and actually I'm very tired).

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 02:52:25 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: World Building--Biomes

Peter Newman wrote:

>For example the city I live in, Anchorage Alaska has a (30 year
>average) precipitaion of only 11.9" [30 cm] per annum.  However
>we do not have the "arid" climate that the recently posted
>tables describe as being the result of less than 50cm of
>precipitation per year. 

   What's the typical native vegetation near Anchorage like?
I don't know what your mean temperature is like; I'm guessing
cold temperate with taiga (evergreen needle-leaved forest).
"Arid" doesn't necessarily mean "desert".

>Instead we have a typical, or even a damp, climate. 
>This is because at cooler temperatures more of 
>the water goes into the ground before evaporating & more of your
>precipitation falls as snow in the first place.

   Spend a rainy season in the tropics and you'll come to a whole
new understanding of "damp". <g> As a source of water, snow is
inferior to rain. First, you have to get several inches of snow
for every inch of rainfall. Second, it's solid and blocks the
sunlight. Third, it's cold, which inhibits life's chemical
reactions. Fourth, it has to melt before it's usable. Fifth, it
concentrates the water from precipitation at one part of the
growing season, instead of evenly distributing it.
   The colder the average temperature and thus the slower the
evaporation, the more likely it is that you will find "wet soil"
communities even in arid zones. As you observe, the tundra in
summertime is an example.

>Note also that mountains will have a vast impact on precipitaion
>patterns.  Consider two areas.  One (west of a barrier mountain
>range) gets a flash flood of 6cm of rain once a month.  The
>other (by the ocean) gets 2mm of rain every day.  Both these
>areas get 72 cm of precipitation per year yet their climates
>will be quite different.

   The tables are based on RW vegetation, and they take this and
many other random factors into account already by giving more
than one biome for each zone of temperature and precipitation.

>As a more extreme example most of Alaska North Slope gets very
>little precipitation but permafrost less than a meter down stops
>this water from getting away & most of its are is in fact wet. 
>So a subarctic tundra can be a "swamp" during its (brief)
>summer.

  These biomes grade into one another. Just for an example,
tundra might look a lot like barrens in the winter under a few
feet of snow and ice. Go up north where there is mostly bare
rock, less lichen, and even less grass, and you have have a hard
time telling it from arctic-alpine desert. Turn summer when the
snow melts but permafrost prevents drainage, and it might look
and act a lot like a bog, which in turn might look a lot like its
warmer cousin marsh, as you observed. Go down south where it gets
pretty luxuriant and find evergreen trees like juniper or
whatever, and you start to wonder where to draw the line between
tundra and taiga.

   The tables I posted (Adapted from Encyclopedia Britannica,
"Biosphere" article, to give credit where credit is due) are
intended to give a world designer a clue about what kind of
vegetation to put where without requiring him to be an expert in
ecology and climatology. They also give some freedom to vary the
scenery without doing violence to the laws of nature.
 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 02:50:35 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: T5, GT and SJG

Sword Worlder said:

>Keep talking, I'll come around sometime.  Maybe I should just bite the
>bullet and buy G:T and BtC before I say any more about it?


You probably should then. Be forewarned, as far as the background, there's
not a good deal that you don't already know if you own the MT: Imperial
Encyclopedia, or the Library Data supplements.

Other than that, it's pretty solid.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 18:40:35 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

From: Alan Bradley 
> They might have
> objected to a "rah rah rah" version of history, however.  

A load of pompous nonsense, but true.

Equally "relevant" to Traveller, but more amusing:

"There is only one God!
 He is a Sun God!
 Ra! Ra! Ra!"

- - Ancient Egyptian cheerleaders' chant.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 18:56:15 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

From: Chris Seamans 
> The Imperium, as a whole, is not the Empire from Star Wars, it's not about
> evil or subjugation, or removal of free will. The Imperium is about turning
> a profit, the profit is for the nobles, the megacorporations, and the
> planets involved. If a tyrant runs a planet and lets his people starve and
> live in poverty, that's fine, as long as the tyrant doesn't interfere with
> interstellar trade. Needless to say, that means that the Imperium is hardly
> a truly stellar example of individual freedoms or even handed rule!

IMTU, as well.
 
> There are "leftists," and they range from the benign (trying to change the
> system from within) to the malevolent (actively working to bring the
> Imperium down as quickly as possible). 

Not necessarily malevolent, IMTU.  

> I invented, and mentioned, the
> Brotherhood of the Rorani for an article I wrote on a Daibei/Vilani singing
> sensation. The Brotherhood of the Rorani would be seen as a watchdog group,
> something along the lines of Amnesty International. There are others, like
> the Ine Givar and the Rule of Terra that wish to overthrow the Imperium.
> They have their own agendas and their own methods, and sometimes they even
> work together. Then, I have other groups, that would act (sort of like
> Greenpeace) to intercede and take down specific nasty and brutal regimes on
> specific worlds. They may be wide-eyed idealists teaching the citizens about
> non-violent revolt, or they may be active commando groups funded by
> megacorporations for their own ends. Of course, they may be wide-eyed
> idealist commandos, or megacorporate funded teachers of non-violent revolt.

I don't answer for Greenpeace, but I suspect they would deny what you wrote
about them!

Incidentally, I was one of the people that introduced "non-violent revolt"
as an alternative to minority putsches (look it up in your dictionary, damn
it!).  I don't necessarily see such revolts as "non-violent", just as not
necessarily being the same as guerilla wars/terrorism.

> Actually, that brings us to megacorporations. Not all of these massive
> companies are created evil... er, EQUAL. Some branches may be cut from the
> same mold as Weyland-Yutani ("the Company" from Alien), big, huge,
> impersonal and ruthless. On the other hand, some may be more along the lines
> of Rizome (the company from Sterling's "Islands in the Net"), with a policy
> of economic democracy and leftist leanings. Maybe a nicer megacorp may
> intervene on behalf of the citizens of a world. Of course, there may be
> other reasons, and they may _look_ like they're intervening on behalf of the
> citizens.
> 
> Finally, you've got the folks who don't think that the Zhodani are really
> all that bad. They feel that the loss of life on both sides has simply been
> way too much and it's got to stop. Of course, these people are a little
> irked about the "standard" line in Imperial history books about what bad,
> bad, people the Zhodani are. The same thing could be said about the
> Solomani, as well, to a lesser extent (I intimated that in the post I made a
> long time ago about the holovid "Tom Jetland: High Passage")...  And so it
> goes.

All hunky-dory in my book.  Oberlindes Lines, IMTU, is a candidate
Megacorp.  It's still hooked to the free trader crowd.
 
> So, anyway, what does this all have to do with your question? Basically, the
> full realm of politics (and then some) exists in my Traveller universe. The
> detractors of the status quo have some really valid points. Should they ever
> get their hands on the full realm of information concerning the Psionics
> suppression, well, that's the Imperial equivilant of the Kennedy
> assassination information here in the United States, the mother of all
> conspiracies. Should the citizens of the Imperium find out about the
> psychohistorical plot, well, the entire regime would likely come down around
> Strephon's ears (I play in the classic Traveller timeline, IY 1107 to be
> exact).
> 
> The real kicker is that the pro-Imperial types have a valid point as well.
> We've all seen the MT stuff, we know what would happen if the Imperium split
> apart!

Totally.  Dominic Flandry had a point!

> So my basic answer is, yes, there are cultural and political "wars" between
> left and right wing  types. Even though "left" and "right" may not have the
> same meanings to the average Imperial citizen, or may not have the same
> meanings to citizens from Core and citizens from the Spinward Marches.

This of course is the important point.  

> Then, of course, over top of it all is the Imperial media, but don't get me
> started on them, I could be typing all night (and actually I'm very tired).

So you'll be reading this over breakfast?  Sleep well...  I'm thinking of
cooking dinner.  It's Sunday night, a bit after 6:30 pm.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 3:51:07 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: sector information request

For a project I'm working on, I'm looking for all "printed and published"
Traveller sectors.  I am not looking for the DGP second survey files which
I regard as chancy, but for products where sector information appeared,
such as:

The Beyond		full sector details
	1981, Paranoia Press, The Beyond
Spinward Marches	full sector details; addl material in Spinward 
	Marches Campaign and MT rulebooks
	1979, GDW, Supplement 03 - The Spinward Marches
Solomani Rim		full sector details; library data in TD #13,
	addl material in Alien Module 6 - Solomani
	1982, GDW, Supplement 10 - The Solomani Rim
Vanguard Reaches	full sector details; location shown in Alien
	Module 1 - Aslan
	1981, Paranoia Press, The Vanguard Reaches
Hinterworlds		full sector details in Challenge #39
Gateway			full sector details in MTJ #4


Any one have other information?


DonM.

- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 02:00:10 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: TNE Miniatures?

...
>I seem to remember a short-lived series of miniatures for
>Traveller: The New Era.  Does anyone remember who put them out,
>and what miniatures were in the series?

  Per the catalog page in RSB, 25mm packs*:
        Aslan Mercenaries
        Coalition Marines in Battle Dress
        Grav Bike & Rider
        PR-317 Combat Robots
        Technos

 * a variety of others were planned but never released, apparently.

5801 Scout/Courier 
5802 Sustem Defense Boat 
5803 Close Escort 
5804 Patrol Cruiser 
5805 Free Trader 
5806 Far Trader 
5807 Lab Ship & Research Pinnace
5808 Subsidized Merchant & Launch
5809 Yacht
5810 Launch 
5811 Ships Boats
5812 Modular Cutter 
5813 Shuttle 
5814 Survey Ship 
5815 Mercenary Cruiser
5816 Passenger Liner
5817 Clipper
5818 Clipper Modules, Quarters - Fuel - Cargo
5819 Clipper Module, Weapon Bays 
5820 RQS Inspec. Launch w/Missile Rack 
5821 Aslan - RQS Quarantine Cutter 
5822 Darrian Patrol Cruiser 
5823 Cuspid Class - Gunboat 
5824 Fang Class - Gunboat 
5825 Jump (Ship Boat) 

  Sentry Box <www.sentrybox.com> in Calgary may still stock some of
these, including some Martian Metals stuff as of late `97.

>Also, can anyone provide information on the miniatures that
>Martian Metals produced for Traveller?

  There were a bunch, the bigger vehicles were cool, and most of 
the personnel sucked (IMHO).

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 02:00:55 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Age of TML members.

> Stuart Ferris said:
>
> >Out of interest, how many people on this mailing list are below 25 years of
> >age?
>

Mental or physical ?


Evyn...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 02:26:51 -0800
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Man-Kzin war

>
>Eris
>    ps.  Do you remember "The Long Arm of Gil Hamilton" and the
>    "organ leggers?" ;->


Remember it well, even used it in a game.
Nothing like having the PC's freak when on a Hi-Law world and finding out
there going to the "body banks" for jay walking.
Made for a fun jail-brake and run to the Starport.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 4:45:53 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: old Trav fanzines

I have discovered that a former friend has walked off with some of
my OLD Traveller stuff, and so I'm looking for copies of ANY issues
of the following:

The Imperium Staple, Herb Petro/Elmer Hinton
Working Passage, Ed Edwards
Security Leak
Third Imperium, Mike Jackson
Continuum, Herb Petro
Jumpspace, James King/Starlance
Tidewater/Terra Traveller Times, Mark Gelinas 
Between Worlds, Magnus Abel
Voyages, Starlance

There might have been some other Traveller fanzines I collected;
if you know of ones I didn't list and you have copies, let me know
and I'll see if it jogs my memory...  This shouldn't include my
HIWG collection, it appears intact.

I'm also looking for copies of articles related to Traveller which
appeared in White Dwarf and Space Gamer.  I say "copies" in the legal
sense which allows libraries (in the United States, your local legal
system may vary) to photocopy articles from a magazine upon request
for patrons of other libraries.  Unfortunately, I have yet to find
a library which saved any issues of these magazines.

I used to collect the articles and then pass the magazines on to my
other gaming friends, like the fool I was in high school...

The same would go for articles in "The VIP of Gaming" and "Far & Away",
but I suspect those will be more rare.

Note:  I'm not a wealthy man.  If you're hoping to make serious $$$
from my situation, you won't.


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:46:25 +0000 (GMT)
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: What to do with your sulpher compund trace ?

G'day,

I'm writing up a planet, with a sulpher compound trace in the atmosphear.
I assume that an easy way to filter the compunds out would be to pass the
air through water   to produce solphuric acid. Is this right ?

Sulpher taint would also mean that the seas were realy weak acid, and if I
remember my chemistry lessons, all you need to do to remove the acid is
add metal, but there must be less expensive way to do it, distilling ?

So to live, you pass the air through tainted water, to get good air, and
then distil the result to get pure water with a bi product of sulphuric
acid.

This must be good for some sort of industry, but what ? Metal refining ?

Any suggetions or corrections would be appreciated.

Thanks

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   #include<stddisclaimer.h>                      Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:51:09 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 20:51:24 -0500, you wrote:

>Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
>
>- ---Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au> wrote:
>> I thought banning them was very much an American fundamentalist
>inspired thing?<
>
>Are you taking a dig at fundamental Americans?  That's it, no more Mr.
>Nice Guy! 
>
>[off stage: "Honey?  Is my flamethrower still in the garage?] 
>
>Look, mate, we send you great stuff like Star Wars and Traveller and
>all we get from you is Paul Hogan in a Subaru.  Now you're gonna
>attack our patriotis... 

We have *our* fundamentalists, too.

Fortunately they have close to zero influence in politics or anywhere else.

I mean, we are a nationed founded by *convicts* ... not a nation founded by
religious zealots (I dunno, which is worse?). Gee, even my paternal great-great
several times grandfather was sent out as a "guest of her majesty"

>[off stage: "Whazzat, honey?  He what?  You mean?  Oh. Oops]
>
>Sorry about that.  My wife says that you were talking about Pat
>Robertson.  Guess I made a mistake.  And she said that she thinks
>Traveller vs. Mel Gibson was a good trade.  So, I guess you're off the
>hook (this time).

Actually, Mel is a yank. He migrated here with his family when quite young,
married a local girl (years later, of course), did his training here, but always
kept his US citizenship.

So, technically speaking, he's a Yank who lives (or, more accurately, *lived*)
in Oz.

Phil
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au | www.fandom.net/~PGD/index.htm
                 | mcgregor@locs.org (emergencies only!!)
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YES! StaRPlay:Armageddon and Dark Star are now available from www.hyperbooks.com
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU); Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 22:03:53 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: sector information request

Mendan - Challenge issue # 49
Reavers' Deep - Various issues of Far Traveller, Traveller Chronicle,
adventures by Andrew Keith.  (incomplete)
Far Frontiers - various issues of Traveller Chronicle plus some FASA
adventures by Andrew (?) Keith. 
Diaspora - MT Astrogators' Guide to the Diaspora Sector
Old Expanses - various issues of High Passage (FASA) and TNE Star Vikings
(incomplete)
Gvurrdon - CT Alien Module 3: Vargr
Trojan Reach - CT Adventure 4: Leviathan & Regency Sourcebook (incomplete)
Deneb - Regency Sourcebook (1117 and TNE)
Reft - Trillion Credit Squadron & Regency Sourcebook (incomplete)
Lots of core sectors- Milieu:0 (possibly inaccurate in parts, overwrites
some DGP information)
Fragments of Zarushagar - Challenge issues?  (very late)
Fragments of Delphi - Challenge issues (relatively late) 
Foreven - Imperiallines #1 (insert in MT adventure Assignment:  Vigilante) 
(intentionally incomplete, as it was set aside for Referee development)
Vland - Travellers' Digest issue which I don't have handy, DGP Vilani &
Vargr

I may have forgotten some.  This is off the top of my head.  I don't have
all the Traveller Chronicles, Travellers' Digests or any Megatraveller
Journals. I don't have all the other mags handy.  Also maybe Solomani &
Aslan may have something??  A lot of this stuff is accurately represented
in Galactic 2.4.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

- ----------
> From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
> To: traveller-digest@MPGN.COM
> Subject: sector information request
> Date: Sunday, 10 January 1999 19:51
> 
> For a project I'm working on, I'm looking for all "printed and published"
> Traveller sectors.  I am not looking for the DGP second survey files
which
> I regard as chancy, but for products where sector information appeared,
> such as:
> 
> The Beyond		full sector details
> 	1981, Paranoia Press, The Beyond
> Spinward Marches	full sector details; addl material in Spinward 
> 	Marches Campaign and MT rulebooks
> 	1979, GDW, Supplement 03 - The Spinward Marches
> Solomani Rim		full sector details; library data in TD #13,
> 	addl material in Alien Module 6 - Solomani
> 	1982, GDW, Supplement 10 - The Solomani Rim
> Vanguard Reaches	full sector details; location shown in Alien
> 	Module 1 - Aslan
> 	1981, Paranoia Press, The Vanguard Reaches
> Hinterworlds		full sector details in Challenge #39
> Gateway			full sector details in MTJ #4
> 
> 
> Any one have other information?
> 
> 
> DonM.
> 
> --
>
==========================================================================
> = Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com
=
> = International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365
=
> = 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250
=
> = Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999
=
> = dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917
= 
> ==========================================================================

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1398
***********************************

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Traveller-digest      Sunday, January 10 1999      Volume 1998 : Number 1399



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: sector information request
Re: World Building--Biomes
RE: Traveller-digest V1998 #1398
Re: Miscellaneous Responses
Re: Age of TML members
RE: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?
RE: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?
RE: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?
RE: FASA Sold
Re: T5, GT and SJG
Re: TravellerCon (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance? )
Re: Traveller's Last Chance?
Re: Age of TML members
Re: Bagpipes in todays modern army
Re: TravellerCon (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance? )
TravellerCon
OFF-TOPIC: James Dallas Egbert
Re: Ihatei Motivations (longish)
Re: What to do with your sulpher compund trace ?
Re: Inverse lasers and reality

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 22:25:25 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: sector information request

Oops, shouldn't have sent this to the list.  I wasn't thinking.  Sorry.


- ----------
> From: Alan Bradley <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: sector information request
> Date: Sunday, 10 January 1999 22:03

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 03:40:01 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: World Building--Biomes

Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com> wrote

> Peter Newman wrote:
> 
> >For example the city I live in, Anchorage Alaska, has a (30 year
> >average) precipitaion of only 11.9" [30 cm] per annum.  However
> >we do not have the "arid" climate that the recently posted
> >tables describe as being the result of less than 50cm of
> >precipitation per year. 

>    What's the typical native vegetation near Anchorage like?
> I don't know what your mean temperature is like; I'm guessing
> cold temperate with taiga (evergreen needle-leaved forest).

Got it in one.

> "Arid" doesn't necessarily mean "desert".

Typical native vegetation in Anchorage varies based on soil & altitude,
but climax vegetation is black spruce & scrub in areas with wet soil;
white spruce in areas with dryer soil; and mixed deciduous in non climax
areas (cottonwood, birch & alder).  Most of the Anchorage basin was
wetlands before developers went landfill happy in the past 50 years.  A
good portion of our fir trees are dying from spruce bark beetle
infestation & its likely that the vegetation will be mostly decidous in
less than fouty years. The Anchorage basin is alluvial terrain
surrounded by mountains on two sides & inlets [fjords really] on the
other two.

Mean annual temperature (30 year average) is 37.3 F [2.3 C].  [This
reflects some warming in the last 5 to 10 years, the 80 year average is
more like 35 F [1.7 C]].  The few areas in town that used to have
permafrost are loosing it.

We have about 60 clear days a year, 65 that are partly cloudy, and about
240 that are cloudy.  We have about 40 days per year where we get more
than 0.1" [2.5mm] of precipitaion.  We get about 72 inches [180 cm] a
year of snow, which melts down to about 6 [15cm] inches of water.
Typical July high temperatures are 62 F [17 C] & typical January lows
are 11 F [-12C].  Yearly record temperatures might be 77 F [25C] and
- -15 F [-26C].  All time [80 years] records are probably about 90F
[32 F] and -40F [-40C].

> >Instead we have a typical, or even a damp, climate. 
> >This is because at cooler temperatures more of 
> >the water goes into the ground before evaporating & more of your
> >precipitation falls as snow in the first place.
> 
>    Spend a rainy season in the tropics and you'll come to a whole
> new understanding of "damp". <g> As a source of water, snow is
> inferior to rain.

I hate to find myself defending snow but: 

> First, you have to get several inches of snow
> for every inch of rainfall.

And you always do that is why precipitaion is measured based on what the
snow melts down to.

> Second, it's solid and blocks the
> sunlight. 

No snow insulates the ground & stops heat loss.  It also creates a micro
climate for small animals where the temperature is just below freezing,
instead of much colder.  Their isn't much sunlight in the winter anyway 
[5 hours 20 minutes at the winter solstice, about an hour more today] &
it's probably cloudy anyway.

> Third, it's cold, which inhibits life's chemical
> reactions.

This seems to be a bit of a chicken & egg comment, if it was not cold it
would not be snowing.  It is true that snow makes things colder but that
is because of its high albedo.

> Fourth, it has to melt before it's usable.

Yes and it is a lot likely to get lost in the meantime, sublimation of
snow is less than evaporation of rain.

> Fifth, it
> concentrates the water from precipitation at one part of the
> growing season, instead of evenly distributing it.

No what it does is take winter precipitaion, which would otherwise be
wasted, and move it to the spring.  It takes weeks to soak into the
ground & those are the weeks the trees need to bud leaves in.

> The tables I posted (Adapted from Encyclopedia Britannica,
> "Biosphere" article, to give credit where credit is due) are
> intended to give a world designer a clue about what kind of
> vegetation to put where without requiring him to be an expert in
> ecology and climatology. They also give some freedom to vary the
> scenery without doing violence to the laws of nature.

The tables were quite good & I do not mean to criticize them but i just
wanted to point out that they are [necessarily] oversimplified.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 22:31:01 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1998 #1398

Here in Australia, a similar accident to the one listed below resulted in
one casualty and an investigation which lasted for an extraordinary length
of time. A female reserve soldier died as a result of "Sarge, it didn't go
off?". It is important to remember that while on the range, there are
firearm instructors in close proximity, and if a soldier had the urge to go
off and toke out their fellow soldiers, "like ducks in a row", they will
have to firstly prevent their instructor form caving the back of their head
in with his or her boot.

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 20:05:04 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Magazine Capacities

>> Yeah, but on the shooting range, at any time, you could have turned and shot
>> your fellow soldiers like ducks in a row.
>
>You know I thought of that (the concept, not doing it) when I was at good ol
>Marine Corps Recruit Depot.   When we were on the firing line, I noticed that
>quite a few of the line PMIs had sidearms.  : )  The moment your muzzle
>awareness goes hideously wrong enough that u're sighting in on someone on the
>firing line (much less the anyone behind the line), my bet is there's a 9mm
>slug or 2 in you.  You'd be extremely lucky to get more than one pull of the
>trigger off before getting shot or appropriately manhandled.  At least, that's
>MCRD.   Since boot camp, excepting the pistol range (duh), usually only the
>ammo techs have sidearms IIRC.

My recruit course, a girl got herself slugged out for rotating to be
_almost_ in line with the other cadets on the range whilst saying
"Sarge, it didn't go off ?"

Before she could revolve to a danger point, a corporal GSI slugged her
while the sergeant grabbed the gun and forced it back down the range,
before carrying out the standard misfire drill.

I believe she later tried to bring a charge of sexual harrasment.

- ------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 07:32:45 -0800
From: Rob Dean <rsdean@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Responses

> Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 21:35:01 -0500
> From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>Regarding Mazes and Monsters:

> I still stand by my statement that the book (and made for TV movie) were a
> pathetic attempt to cash in on the new found popularity of D&D and
> roleplaying games in general. I own the book, and the film and this is the
> conclusion I had to come to.
> 
> I didn't know about this Dallas Egbert character until now. I'm kind of glad
> that you told me. Was there any proof that he really did go over the edge as
> a result of D&D? Or was he already mentally ill to begin with? I'll have to
> look this character up...
> 
> Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )

I don't disagree about the book attempting to cash in on a recent news story.
I never saw the movie version, so I won't comment on it. As for the quality of it--
I make my hobby money by freelance proofreading, and you haven't seen pathetic
until you've tried that. (-:

The more-or-less full story of Egbert and the investigation into his disappearance
can be found in a book called _The Dungeonmaster_ written by the private investigator
brought in to the case by his parents.  I can't think of the guy's name at the moment,
but that ought to be enough to winkle the info out of the Library of Congress
online catalog or wherever.  The short version is that, no, it didn't have anything
to do with D&D.

Rob Dean
rsdean@erols.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:16:42 -0000
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: Age of TML members

> >Stuart Ferris said:
>>
> >Out of interest, how many people on this mailing list are below 25 years
of
> >age?
>>

>Mental or physical ?

I just think this sort of information is important in establishing the state
of Traveller in the late 90s and whether it has a future in the 21st
century. I wouldn't be surprised to find that the majority of people on the
mailing list are over 25 years and have been playing the game for over ten
years. Perhaps we should do a survey of the list membership?

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:44:28 -0000
From: "MindShift Design" <mindshift@usa.net>
Subject: RE: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?

> > Whilst not strictly relating to Traveller, this was generated from several
> > player character positions and other gameworld data using our EDGE System
> > and one single command - dock the ship. Imagine what a Traveller game could
> > be like ....
>
> And how badly does it hang when a player doesn't respond?

It doesn't. If a player doesn't submit a turn for play - they're ignored.
The main game engine runs through a queue of player turns processing turns
in a particular order. If in this situation a player didn't respond, they'd
simply still be left in the same position they were in, whilst the rest of
the world moved on. Just like in real life.

> And what does the player have to do to get their actions interpreted
> correctly?  It seems to me that Out Of Character comments to the GM
> that help clarify in game actions might be a big hurdle.

It uses a simple but effective parser and command system. You nominate each
character that wants to perform an action. For every action that you try to
perform, you issue a command, and the target of that command. This either
uses code, or labels (names for objects), or a mix. Our parser can
differentiate between the two.

So to have character A (Jenn) in your party dock the ship at Hibernian
Station (Station 12), the command could be:

	A	Dock Ship	Station 12

		or
	Jenn	Dock Ship	Hibernian Station

It looks a little like disjointed English, but the essentials of the command
are the same as 'Jenn docks the ship at Hibernian Station'. In a normal
roleplaying situation, a GM may make the player roll piloting skill to see
if Jenn is successful (our GOD program does the same) or might decide that
the station's automated docking procedures may kick in (our GOD does the
same). Then player interaction may ensue before the finally docking sequence
is complete (our GOD does the same).

Out of character comments can be handle by including messages through the
Out Of Game Message system to the GM. However the command system is designed
to handle almost every situation that occurs. Of course having a human
moderate the game would help, but would also slow down the processing or
results depending on factors.

- --
Jason Paul McCartan					ICQ: 16802661
MindShift Design Game Studios			AIM: Japem
mindshift@usa.net
http://members.xoom.com/mindshift

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:44:24 -0000
From: "MindShift Design" <mindshift@usa.net>
Subject: RE: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?

> >How many people would like to see an 'official' licensed play by mail/email
> >version of Traveller ?
>
> Only if it doesn't cost anything to play.
>
> I see no reason to pay for something that is "official"  when there
> are hundreds, if not thousands of PBeM games being run for nothing.

Point understood. This is one of the long-running arguments in PBM/PBeM
circles - why pay for games when you can get games for free. The answer
always comes back to the same reason why you'd gladly take the local bus or
purchase a new car with all the latest trimmings. It comes down to wants,
needs, interest and features. There are a lot of good games out there (I
play some myself) but quality of features, gameplay and continuous
development tends to be more greater in commercially developed systems.
Especially in computer-moderated games.


> > but with an intuitive command system for performing actions and
> >actual roleplaying ?
>
> Isn't that a contradiction in terms ?
>
> Why would I want a "command system" for "actual roleplaying" when I
> could just use language ?

The point is that whenever you play in a roleplaying game, you can strip the
language down to some base elements. Disregarding the emotional,
psychological and physical state of your character, when you're being
attacked by 15 Vargr all carrying heavy weapons, for you to return fire you
still have to do the following:

1) Choose your targets
2) Fire your weapon at your targets

So you could tell your GM 'I'm going to shoot at the lead Vargr'. At base
essentials, you've using a more involved system for roleplaying that still
relies on an underlying 'command system' - shoot weapon at target. You've
nominated your target, you've nominated your action. You've passed
parameters to the GM about what you want to do.

With computer moderation of any PBM/PBeM game you have to create a simple
interface for you to operate in the real world. Even Baldur's Gate and
Ultima Online rely on this. But our system allows you to perform most of the
actions that you would in a normal roleplaying by using an easy to
understand command system. You're still using language, just not as complex
as a human GM would be used to. But it is an effective bridge between
roleplaying and PBM.

Besides how many human GMs could handle 1000 players playing 100s of
different missions scenarios at the same time and have all the players
interacting with each other in some way in a few minutes processing time ?

> Sorry if my bias against computer moderated "role-playing" games is
> showing.
> I'd have no problem at all if you were just trying to do TCS or FFW,
> or some derivative, but I see a vast difference betwen something like
> Ultima Online or Tribes of Crane and role-playing.

So do I. And we're not going down the Ultima Online road. The game software
that allows you do play Ultima Online is limiting is some ways - there's no
true player interaction and roleplaying, just defined situations that can
occur within the parameters of the gameworld, with information passed from
the player interface to allow particular actions. When are updates issued,
do they develop more actions for you to accomplish in the gameworld, are the
NPCs continually developed, can each game be customised to suit the players
?

What we are doing is not what you perceive to be computer moderated
'role-playing' as these games have come to be known in the software
industry. All the gameplay is run by a single game administrator/master on
their own computer network. Turns with player actions are submitted to the
GM who then inputs them so that the main computer program that moderates the
game can process the information. The GOD program then processes the turns
and updates all the game data, including player data and world data. The GM
then prints out the results and sends them to individual players. Players
can either read these results as a straight text report incorporating their
characters stats, or load them into a special client front-end that reads
and writes turns for the game and also acts like an advanced character sheet
with lots of paper holding background information ?

- --
Jason Paul McCartan					ICQ: 16802661
MindShift Design Game Studios			AIM: Japem
mindshift@usa.net
http://members.xoom.com/mindshift

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:44:18 -0000
From: "MindShift Design" <mindshift@usa.net>
Subject: RE: Interest in a Traveller PBM/PBeM ?

> >So for the roleplayers in the group comes complex interpersonal relationship
> >development. For the goal-bunnies who like to achieve a target and
> >wealth/fame etc, there would be hundreds of opportunities to boldy go where
> >no-one has gone before. And for the god-heads, the control of politics and
> >the market in the gameworld would be dictated by them. Each of these types
> >of players would be affected by cascading causality based on interaction by
> >players on different levels.
> >
> Awesome idea!  Go with that!
> 
> Just remember that we role-players like to shoot our guns off every now and
> then...


Plenty of opportunities to do that. And nice big guns. :)

- -- 
Jason Paul McCartan					ICQ: 16802661
MindShift Design Game Studios			AIM: Japem
mindshift@usa.net
http://members.xoom.com/mindshift	

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:44:31 -0000
From: "MindShift Design" <mindshift@usa.net>
Subject: RE: FASA Sold

> This has very little to do with your post directly. I've seen a number of
> people concerned that Microsoft would destroy FASA's pen and paper product
> line.

My sources in the industry have confirmed that it's only the Interactive
(computer game) line that's been sold. The pen and paper line is safe as far
as we make out.

Besides, I'd hate to play BattleTech 2002 (with all new MS Agent Mechs that
cave a cute cat that tells you how to operate the Mech itself. What the hell
do you do when you delete the help files by accident ?!) with Service Pack
5, connected to Roleplayer Explorer v10 and integrated to Direct Dice D1000.
The game would crash more often than a drunk blindfolded player character
piloting a shuttle backwards through an asteroid field when his skill rating
in piloting is only slightly better than 0.

Scary thought.

- --
Jason Paul McCartan					ICQ: 16802661
MindShift Design Game Studios			AIM: Japem
mindshift@usa.net
http://members.xoom.com/mindshift

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 09:21:56 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: T5, GT and SJG

In a message dated 1/10/99 2:14:42 AM Eastern Standard Time,
swordworlder@yahoo.com writes:

<< 
 Keep talking, I'll come around sometime.  Maybe I should just bite the
 bullet and buy G:T and BtC before I say any more about it? >>

	Actually,  I wouldn't recommend GT unless you really want to play using the
GURPS system.   If you've played Trav long enough you won't find much new in
the first half of the book,  if you don't play GURPS then you don't need the
second half.
  
	Despite my optimistic/wishful thinking SJG post,  I am zealously in favor of
a real Traveller version being out there.  To me, without a Traveller-style
randomized character generation system it just ain't Traveller. (THis may be
why I never really got into TNE).

	I think that sourcebooks like BtC and StarMercs (hope, hope, drool, drool)
may be just as useful for real Traveller and that's why I don't dread SJG.
But,  we need real Traveller! That's what I want to play!

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 09:27:58 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: TravellerCon (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance? )

Well, I'll probably be in both Vancouver and Calgary this summer.

How about planning get-togethers in both places?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:05:53 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller's Last Chance?

In a message dated 1/10/99 2:54:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, semo@pil.net
writes:

<< 
 So my basic answer is, yes, there are cultural and political "wars" between
 left and right wing  types. Even though "left" and "right" may not have the
 same meanings to the average Imperial citizen, or may not have the same
 meanings to citizens from Core and citizens from the Spinward Marches.
 
 Then, of course, over top of it all is the Imperial media, but don't get me
 started on them, I could be typing all night (and actually I'm very tired).
>>


	When I ran T4 last year, one of the principal evils the players fought was
The Galactic People's Party, a leftist organization, that was ostensibly a
multi-world political party but was in fact a terrorist conspiracy funded by
several pocket empires who were oppossed to Imperial expansion.   I think that
leftists-Marxists are the ideal enemies of the Third Imperium--I mean it
represents everything they hate,  Big Corporations and rulership by a
hereditary land-owning caste.  So my players ended up blowing up alot of
hippies for the sake of Cleon by the end.    

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:16:16 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Age of TML members

In a message dated 1/10/99 8:42:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,
stuart.ferris@virgin.net writes:

<< 
 I just think this sort of information is important in establishing the state
 of Traveller in the late 90s and whether it has a future in the 21st
 century. I wouldn't be surprised to find that the majority of people on the
 mailing list are over 25 years and have been playing the game for over ten
 years. Perhaps we should do a survey of the list membership? >>

	When I was on the AD&D list this summer, we found out that the list memebers
were almost all either in their teens or in their 30's, almost no one in their
20's.   I think that this might have something to do with access to computers
and e-mail.  So If the survey turned out results showing few people in their
20's that doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't any out there.   But, I
suspect we won't find too many teens on the Trav list--and that is a bad sign.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 15:17:23 -0000
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: Bagpipes in todays modern army

Steve Daniels wrote:-

>Then a lot of history books need to be fixed.
>I've read countless reports of this being a common occurrence
>among the Scottish highlanders, long ago.  This story relating to
>the reasoning for not wearing anything under the kilt:  throw off
>the kilt and your naked (maybe a shirt).  The reason for doing that
>being that the old kilts, which were yards and yards of fabric
>wrapped around the waist and shoulder, was an encumberance
>and danger when fighting close in.  Especially if they got wet.

I am not questioning your sources but, a number of things make the me
question this:-

1) I think I would rather be encumbered than face an army of sword wielding
Englishmen with my wedding tackle dangling ripe to be chopped off. The kilt
is made of heavy plaid and would probably do a reasonably good job of
weakening any blow. Also, remember they were fighting English troops who
would probably be wearing light chainmail. They would be as encumbered if
not more.

2) The weather in Scotland is not exactly the best in the world. Anyone
running about without their kilt or trousers for that matter would probably
catch their death of cold. And I am sure an Scotsman back then would rather
die by the cold steel of an Englishman's sword than lying sniffling on their
bed.

I had heard that when required to move quickly and on forced marches they
would remove their kilts. But, this then raises the question of what they
did with them? If they carried them, surely they would still be as
encumbered?

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 08:28:11 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: TravellerCon (was Re: Traveller's Last Chance? )

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> Well, I'll probably be in both Vancouver and Calgary this summer.

Me too, since I live in Calgary and I'll be seeing my folks in
Vancouver.
> 
> How about planning get-togethers in both places?

Sure! When are you in Calgary?

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:12:43 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: TravellerCon

For at least the first one, might I suggest the best place for a
TravellerCon would be the birthplace of Traveller itself, Bloomington-Normal
Illinois? I've been there (even seen the original GDW offices); it's a nice
town, has some nice game shops, Illinois State University, and would be
appropriate.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:27:08 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: OFF-TOPIC: James Dallas Egbert

>I didn't know about this Dallas Egbert character until now. I'm kind of glad
>that you told me. Was there any proof that he really did go over the edge as
>a result of D&D? Or was he already mentally ill to begin with? I'll have to
>look this character up...


James Dallas Egbert was a 16 year old genius who went to Michigan State
University in East Lansing, MI. His dissapearance came about when he went to
Texas, partially to get away from the pressures of school and partially
because of a situation involving his sexuality. This dissaperance was linked
to D&D when the private investigator who was trying to find him discovered
that a.) he played D&D, b.) some of the students played "Live-action" D&D in
the steam tunnels beneath campus and c.) he has been in the steam tunnels.
The theory was that he had gotten trapped down there and died. That theory
was played up by the national media; when he was found it was discovered
that his vanishing act had nothing to do with D&D, this fact was
conveinently ignored by the media. After his return, he later committed
suicide. Again, this had nothing to do with D&D, but this event (IMO) linked
D&D and suicide in the minds of the public. James Dallas Egbert was a
troubled young man and his death was a tragedy, but it had nothing to do
with D&D.

In a bizzare addendum, I met Egbert at Rider's Hobby Shop in E. Lansing in
1979; I had just started gaming and was there to buy my Player's Handbook.
This was shortly before his dissapearance, and I recall we talked about one
of his characters briefly. I didn't know who he was until I saw his picture
in the paper.

ObTrav: nothing, really...

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 11:40:40 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Ihatei Motivations (longish)

 "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au> wrote:

>Damn, I was thinking about proposing to do Aslan and K'kree for SJ Games.
>Why didn't I?  Did anyone else put in a proposal?

I know of at least one that has gone in.

(Not me but someone else - sadly I've got three 101's on the go at the moment).

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:18:51 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: What to do with your sulpher compund trace ?

>
>I'm writing up a planet, with a sulpher compound trace in the atmosphear.
>I assume that an easy way to filter the compunds out would be to pass the
>air through water   to produce solphuric acid. Is this right ?


2300 AD just solved the problem by allowing the colonists to inhale a
bacteria which lived in the lungs.  It ate sulphur from the air as it was
breathed. Or something like that.

Of course once you left the planet, you had to be reinfected before you
could return

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:24:53 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@bdol10.indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Inverse lasers and reality

Anson Betts wrote:
>
> How will inducing a current on a conductor passing through a
> magnetic field create audio?  You'd need one hua of a big
> magnetic field to reach across 1km, let alone 30000km (1 hex
> range)

Actually, I was thinking of inducing a current in the leads
to existing speakers on the target ship.  I figure that it
would take a lot less power to vibrate some speakers than
to rattle a whole ship.

As to magnetic fields and their ranges, is there any
precedent for powerful manipulation of forces?  Perhaps
a modified grav-plate can serve to channel/focus a
truly heinous magnetic field that could be used.

Anyway, it sounds more plausible than the previous attempt.
(Thinking back to the Traveller time-line, were ram-scoop
type spacecraft ever created?)
- --
Todd Zircher (aka TAZ)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1399
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